http://www.novaroma.org/vici/index.php?title=ES:Comitia_(Nova_Roma)&feed=atom&action=historyES:Comitia (Nova Roma) - Revision history2024-03-28T09:46:18ZRevision history for this page on the wikiMediaWiki 1.17.0http://www.novaroma.org/vici/index.php?title=ES:Comitia_(Nova_Roma)&diff=38238&oldid=prevGnaeus Cornelius Lentulus at 18:19, 31 March 20092009-03-31T18:19:29Z<p></p>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div>Las '''''Comitia''''' son las asambleas formales de los ciudadanos, reunidas por los magistrados y con el poder de realizar expresiones autorizadas de la voluntad popular. Existen cuatro ''comitia''</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div>Las '''''Comitia''''' son las asambleas formales de los ciudadanos, reunidas por los magistrados y con el poder de realizar expresiones autorizadas de la voluntad popular. Existen cuatro ''comitia''</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="background: #ffa; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div>[[Category:Res publica (Nova Roma)]]</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="background: #cfc; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div>[[Category<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">:ES</ins>:Res publica (Nova Roma)]]</div></td></tr>
</table>Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulushttp://www.novaroma.org/vici/index.php?title=ES:Comitia_(Nova_Roma)&diff=38016&oldid=prevLucius Coruncanius Cato: changes according the sections under discussion2009-03-28T15:16:06Z<p>changes according the sections under discussion</p>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div>La ''comitia populi tributa'' (asamblea de tribus del pueblo) o ''comitia tributa'' (asamblea de las tribus) se compone de todos los ciudadanos, agrupados en sus respectivas tribus. Tiene el poder de elegir a los [[ES:Quaestor (Nova Roma)|quaestores]] y a los [[Curule Aedile (Nova Roma)|curule aediles]], promulgar leyes y juzgar casos en los que no esté contemplada la posibilidad de la perdida permanente de ciudadanía.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div>La ''comitia populi tributa'' (asamblea de tribus del pueblo) o ''comitia tributa'' (asamblea de las tribus) se compone de todos los ciudadanos, agrupados en sus respectivas tribus. Tiene el poder de elegir a los [[ES:Quaestor (Nova Roma)|quaestores]] y a los [[Curule Aedile (Nova Roma)|curule aediles]], promulgar leyes y juzgar casos en los que no esté contemplada la posibilidad de la perdida permanente de ciudadanía.</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div>El que una propuesta fuera buena o mala idea era una discusión a parte y no se debatía en el senado.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div>El que una propuesta fuera buena o mala idea era una discusión a parte y no se debatía en el senado.</div></td></tr>
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</table>Lucius Coruncanius Catohttp://www.novaroma.org/vici/index.php?title=ES:Comitia_(Nova_Roma)&diff=38013&oldid=prevLucius Coruncanius Cato at 15:11, 28 March 20092009-03-28T15:11:27Z<p></p>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="background: #ffa; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div>'''''Comitia''''' <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">are formal assemblies of the citizens</del>, <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">convened by magistrates and having the power to make authoritative expressions of the will of the people</del>. <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline"> There are four </del>''comitia''<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">.</del></div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="background: #cfc; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Las </ins>'''''Comitia''''' <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">son las asambleas formales de los ciudadanos</ins>, <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">reunidas por los magistrados y con el poder de realizar expresiones autorizadas de la voluntad popular</ins>. <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Existen cuatro </ins>''comitia''</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div>==''Comitia curiata''==</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div>==''Comitia curiata''==</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="background: #ffa; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">The </del>[[Comitia Curiata (Nova Roma)|''comitia curiata'']] (<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">curiate assembly</del>) <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">is the oldest recorded ''comitia'' in Rome</del>. <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">It dates from the time of the Kings; by the late Republic it had become largely ceremonial</del>. <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">The members of the </del>''comitia curiata'' <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">are Nova Roma's lictors </del>(''lictores curiati''), <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">convened and presided over by the </del>''pontifex maximus''. <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">The duties of the </del>''comitia curiata'' <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">are to invest elected and appointed  </del>[[Magistracies (Nova Roma)|<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">magistrates</del>]] <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">with </del>''[[imperium]]'', <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">witness the appointment of the official priests and priestess of the </del>''sacra publica Romana'', <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">and ratify some adoptions, wills, and changes of status</del>.  </div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="background: #cfc; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">La </ins>[[Comitia Curiata (Nova Roma)|''comitia curiata'']] (<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">asamblea curiata</ins>) <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">es la más antigua documentada en Roma, remontándose a la época de los Reyes</ins>. <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">En la época de la República tardía pasó a ser muy solemne</ins>. <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Los miembros de la </ins>''comitia curiata'' <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">son lictores </ins>(''lictores curiati''), <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">reunidos y presididos por el </ins>''pontifex maximus''. <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Las tareas de la </ins>''comitia curiata'' <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">son investir a los </ins>[[Magistracies (Nova Roma)|<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">magistrados</ins>]] <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">electos y nombrados con el </ins>''[[imperium]]'', <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">ser testigos de los nombramientos de los sacerdotes y sacerdotisas de la </ins>''sacra publica Romana'' <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">y ratificar algunas adopciones</ins>, <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">testamentos o cambio de estado</ins>.</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div>==''Comitia centuriata''==</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div>==''Comitia centuriata''==</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="background: #cfc; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">La ''comitia centuriata'' es una de las tres asambleas que participan en las votaciones de Nova Roma. Su función principal es la de elegir los pretores, dos cónsules y a uno de los censores. A veces se la llama a votación de algunas leyes durante los mandatos aunque ésta función la realiza de forma usual la ''comitia populi tributa''. También tiene potestad para juzgar casos en los que un ciudadano puede ser desposeido de forma permanente de su ciudadanía.</ins></div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div>==''Comitia plebis tributa''==</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div>==''Comitia plebis tributa''==</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="background: #ffa; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">{{:Comitia </del>plebis tributa (Nova Roma)<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">}}</del></div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="background: #cfc; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">La ''comitia </ins>plebis tributa<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">'' (asamblea de tribus de la plebe) o el ''concilium plebis'' (asamblea de la plebe) se compone de todos los ciudadanos de la orden plebeya, agrupados en sus respectivas tribus. Elige a los ''[[Plebeian Aedile </ins>(Nova Roma)<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">|aedilis plebis]]'' y los [[ES:Tribunus Plebis (Nova Roma)|tribunos de la ''plebe'']]. También tiene potestad para promulgar leyes sobre todos los ciudadanos (llamadas plebiscitos) y a juzgar casos en los que solamente estén envueltos miembros de la orden plebeya pero que no incluyan la posibilidad de la perdida permanente de la ciudadanía.</ins></div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div>==''Comitia populi tributa''==</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div>==''Comitia populi tributa''==</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="background: #ffa; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div>{{:Comitia populi tributa (Nova Roma)}}</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="background: #cfc; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline"><!-- </ins>{{:Comitia populi tributa (Nova Roma)}} <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">--></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;"></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="background: #cfc; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div><ins style="color: red; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">La ''comitia populi tributa'' (asamblea de tribus del pueblo) o ''comitia tributa'' (asamblea de las tribus) se compone de todos los ciudadanos, agrupados en sus respectivas tribus. Tiene el poder de elegir a los [[ES:Quaestor (Nova Roma)|quaestores]] y a los [[Curule Aedile (Nova Roma)|curule aediles]], promulgar leyes y juzgar casos en los que no esté contemplada la posibilidad de la perdida permanente de ciudadanía.</ins></div></td></tr>
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<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="background: #cfc; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div><ins style="color: red; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">(sección en discusión)</ins></div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="background: #ffa; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">This section is under heavy editing now...</del></div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="background: #cfc; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div>==<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Funciones</ins>==</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="background: #ffa; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div>==<del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Functions</del>==</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="background: #cfc; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div></div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div>===Roma Antiqua===</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div>===Roma Antiqua===</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="background: #ffa; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">In antiquity there were accepted conventions about the relationship between the senate</del>, <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">the magistrates, and the assemblies. They helped to make that three-sided relationship work smoothly</del>.  </div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="background: #cfc; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">En la antigüedad existían convencionalismos acerca de la relación entre el senado</ins>, <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">los magistrados y las asambleas que ayudaban a que estas relaciones a tres bandas funcionaran</ins>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="background: #ffa; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">First</del>, <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">it's important to remember that we are not talking about a direct relationship between the senate and the assemblies. There was </del>no <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">such relationship</del>: <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">the senate and the assemblies had </del>no <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">direct dealings with one another at all</del>. <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">The magistrates were the intermediaries</del>. <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">The senate gave advice to the magistrates, and the magistrates put proposals to the assemblies</del>. <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">The senate could not put proposals to the assemblies but only advise magistrates to do so</del>.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="background: #cfc; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Primero de todo</ins>, <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">es importante recordar que </ins>no <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">estamos hablando de relación directa entre el senado y las asambleas. No había tal relación</ins>: <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">el senado y las asambleas </ins>no <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">trataban asuntos de forma directa entre ellos</ins>. <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Los magistrados eran los intermediarios</ins>. <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">El senado aconsejaba a los magistrados y éstos llevaban propuestas a las asambleas</ins>. <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">El senado no podía proponer nada directamente a las asambleas, si no pedir a los magistrados que lo hicieran</ins>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="background: #ffa; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">In </del>general <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">it was considered proper for magistrates to take the advice of the senate before bringing legislative proposals </del>(rogationes) <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">before the assembly</del>. <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">This was not compulsory, and failure to consult the senate did not invalidate a proposal put before the assembly</del>. <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">It was</del>, <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">however</del>, <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">a very strong tradition, and a </del>tribunus plebis <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">would often veto a proposal which had not previously been discussed by the senate.</del></div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="background: #cfc; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Por lo </ins>general<ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">, se consideraba apropiado que los magistrados hablaran con el senado antes de llevar propuestas legislativas </ins>(rogationes) <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">ante la asamblea correspondiente</ins>. <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Ésto no era obligatorio y que la consulta previa al senado no invalidaba en ningún caso la propuesta formal</ins>. <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Aún así</ins>, <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">existía una tradición instaurada</ins>, <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">y el </ins>tribunus plebis <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">podía vetar una propuesta que no se hubiera discutido previamente en el senado</ins>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="background: #ffa; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div> </div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="background: #cfc; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="background: #ffa; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">There were, however, exceptions. Certain types of proposal were understood to be within the exclusive competence of the assembly, and if a magistrate brought such a proposal to the assembly without consulting the senate, he was not</del></div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="background: #cfc; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="background: #ffa; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">considered to have behaved improperly; but equally he would not have been accused of impropriety if he had consulted the senate first. A tribune could not use failure to consult the senate as a reason to veto a proposal of this</del></div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="background: #cfc; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="background: #ffa; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">kind.</del></div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="background: #cfc; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="background: #ffa; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div> </div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="background: #cfc; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="background: #ffa; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">Consulting the senate on the merits of a proposal should not be confused with the patrum auctoritas. The patrum auctoritas was a technical device: it was rubber-stamping, rather like the Queen approving Acts of Parliament in the U.K. It was quite separate from any discussion by the senate of whether a proposal was actually a good idea or not</del>.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="background: #cfc; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;"></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="background: #cfc; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div><ins style="color: red; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">También existían excepciones. Ciertos tipos de propuestas se entendían bajo la competencia exclusiva de la asamblea, y si un magistrado realizaba alguna propuesta de este tipo, sin antes pasar por el senado, no constituía un comportamiento irrespetuoso. En estos casos, de todos modos, si la propuesta había salido de una consulta al senado, el tribuno no podía ejercer su derecho a vetar la propuesta.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;"></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="background: #cfc; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div><ins style="color: red; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">La consulta al senado acerca de cada termino de la propuesta no debe confundirse con el ''patrum auctoritas'', ya que éste es un pequeño dispositivo consistente en un ''sellado'' , a la manera como la reina de Inglaterra aprueba las leyes del parlamento del Reino Unido.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="background: #cfc; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div><ins style="color: red; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">El que una propuesta fuera buena o mala idea era una discusión a parte y no se debatía en el senado.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;"></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="background: #cfc; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div><ins style="color: red; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><!--</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div>===editing===</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div>===editing===</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;"></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2"> </td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="background: #cfc; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div><ins style="color: red; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">En nuestra República actual, estos convencionalismos no son conocidos por todos y, en algunos casos, se contradicen por la ley escrita, lo que explica por que esta relación a tres no funciona demasiado bien en la actualidad.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="background: #ffa; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">In our republic today these conventions</del></div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="background: #cfc; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div><ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">El ''patrum auctoritas'' tiene</ins>, <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">aún y así</ins>, <ins class="diffchange diffchange-inline">alguna relevancia para la situación extraña en que nos hallamos por la lex constitutiva</ins>.  </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'>−</td><td style="background: #ffa; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div><del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">are not widely known</del>, <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">and in some cases are actually contradicted by written law</del>, <del class="diffchange diffchange-inline">and this may partly explain why that relationship doesn't always work so well nowadays</del>.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'>+</td><td style="background: #cfc; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;"></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;"></td></tr>
<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div>The patrum auctoritas does, however, have some relevance to the odd situation imposed on us by the lex constitutiva. I shan't bother to re-state here my belief that the procedures set out in chapter I.D of the lex constitutiva are</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div>The patrum auctoritas does, however, have some relevance to the odd situation imposed on us by the lex constitutiva. I shan't bother to re-state here my belief that the procedures set out in chapter I.D of the lex constitutiva are</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div>Does that really matter? Not a great deal, but it does make a bit of a mockery of the procedure as it is on paper. If the lex constutitiva has some good reason for requiring the senate to give its approval after the assembly and not before, then the practice of having a preliminary discussion in the senate entirely negates whatever that good reason was, because the senate-meeting that really matters will always be the one before the assembly, not the one after. And if, on the other hand, it is actually better to have the senate vote beforehand, then that means the procedure in chapter I.D is imperfect and, since it is being effectively circumvented, should really be changed. Either way, it cannot possibly be sensible to have the senate vote twice on precisely the same proposal.</div></td><td class='diff-marker'> </td><td style="background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;"><div>Does that really matter? Not a great deal, but it does make a bit of a mockery of the procedure as it is on paper. If the lex constutitiva has some good reason for requiring the senate to give its approval after the assembly and not before, then the practice of having a preliminary discussion in the senate entirely negates whatever that good reason was, because the senate-meeting that really matters will always be the one before the assembly, not the one after. And if, on the other hand, it is actually better to have the senate vote beforehand, then that means the procedure in chapter I.D is imperfect and, since it is being effectively circumvented, should really be changed. Either way, it cannot possibly be sensible to have the senate vote twice on precisely the same proposal.</div></td></tr>
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</table>Lucius Coruncanius Catohttp://www.novaroma.org/vici/index.php?title=ES:Comitia_(Nova_Roma)&diff=25586&oldid=prevGnaeus Cornelius Lentulus at 16:42, 10 June 20082008-06-10T16:42:28Z<p></p>
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</table>Gnaeus Cornelius Lentulushttp://www.novaroma.org/vici/index.php?title=ES:Comitia_(Nova_Roma)&diff=25506&oldid=prevMarcus Curiatius Complutensis: New page: {{LanguageBar | Comitia (Nova Roma) }} {{Translate|IT}} {{Translate|ES}} {{Translate|DE}} {{Translate|PT}} {{Translate|FR}} {{Translate|LA}} '''''Comitia''''' are formal assemblies of th...2008-06-09T10:24:27Z<p>New page: {{LanguageBar | Comitia (Nova Roma) }} {{Translate|IT}} {{Translate|ES}} {{Translate|DE}} {{Translate|PT}} {{Translate|FR}} {{Translate|LA}} '''''Comitia''''' are formal assemblies of th...</p>
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<br />
'''''Comitia''''' are formal assemblies of the citizens, convened by magistrates and having the power to make authoritative expressions of the will of the people. There are four ''comitia''.<br />
<br />
==''Comitia curiata''==<br />
<br />
The [[Comitia Curiata (Nova Roma)|''comitia curiata'']] (curiate assembly) is the oldest recorded ''comitia'' in Rome. It dates from the time of the Kings; by the late Republic it had become largely ceremonial. The members of the ''comitia curiata'' are Nova Roma's lictors (''lictores curiati''), convened and presided over by the ''pontifex maximus''. The duties of the ''comitia curiata'' are to invest elected and appointed [[Magistracies (Nova Roma)|magistrates]] with ''[[imperium]]'', witness the appointment of the official priests and priestess of the ''sacra publica Romana'', and ratify some adoptions, wills, and changes of status. <br />
<br />
==''Comitia centuriata''==<br />
<br />
{{:Comitia centuriata (Nova Roma)}}<br />
<br />
==''Comitia plebis tributa''==<br />
<br />
{{:Comitia plebis tributa (Nova Roma)}}<br />
<br />
==''Comitia populi tributa''==<br />
<br />
{{:Comitia populi tributa (Nova Roma)}}<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
This section is under heavy editing now...<br />
<br />
==Functions==<br />
<br />
===Roma Antiqua===<br />
<br />
In antiquity there were accepted conventions about the relationship between the senate, the magistrates, and the assemblies. They helped to make that three-sided relationship work smoothly. <br />
<br />
First, it's important to remember that we are not talking about a direct relationship between the senate and the assemblies. There was no such relationship: the senate and the assemblies had no direct dealings with one another at all. The magistrates were the intermediaries. The senate gave advice to the magistrates, and the magistrates put proposals to the assemblies. The senate could not put proposals to the assemblies but only advise magistrates to do so.<br />
<br />
In general it was considered proper for magistrates to take the advice of the senate before bringing legislative proposals (rogationes) before the assembly. This was not compulsory, and failure to consult the senate did not invalidate a proposal put before the assembly. It was, however, a very strong tradition, and a tribunus plebis would often veto a proposal which had not previously been discussed by the senate.<br />
<br />
There were, however, exceptions. Certain types of proposal were understood to be within the exclusive competence of the assembly, and if a magistrate brought such a proposal to the assembly without consulting the senate, he was not<br />
considered to have behaved improperly; but equally he would not have been accused of impropriety if he had consulted the senate first. A tribune could not use failure to consult the senate as a reason to veto a proposal of this<br />
kind.<br />
<br />
Consulting the senate on the merits of a proposal should not be confused with the patrum auctoritas. The patrum auctoritas was a technical device: it was rubber-stamping, rather like the Queen approving Acts of Parliament in the U.K. It was quite separate from any discussion by the senate of whether a proposal was actually a good idea or not.<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
===editing===<br />
<br />
<br />
In our republic today these conventions<br />
are not widely known, and in some cases are actually contradicted by written law, and this may partly explain why that relationship doesn't always work so well nowadays.<br />
<br />
The patrum auctoritas does, however, have some relevance to the odd situation imposed on us by the lex constitutiva. I shan't bother to re-state here my belief that the procedures set out in chapter I.D of the lex constitutiva are<br />
harmful to republic in general: that's not what I want to say in this message. The point I want to raise is simply that, whether these procedures are good or bad, we cannot ignore the fact that they are alien to the ancient republican constitution and therefore create certain difficulties which must be addressed.<br />
<br />
<br />
These procedures are for amending the lex constitutiva itself. Chapter I.D provides that the lex constitutiva can be amended by a lex enacted by the comitia centuriata; however, such an amendment will not take effect unless<br />
ratified by the senate. The effect of this is that an amendment which is enacted by the comitia centuriata but not ratified by the senate is legally valid but ineffective. We need not worry too much about what exactly that<br />
means. The point is that the comitia centuriata votes, and then the senate votes aftewards.<br />
<br />
This does not mean, of course, that the senate's advice cannot be sought beforehand. But this is where the patrum auctoritas becomes relevant. You see, in the middle and late republic the patrum auctoritas, the technical<br />
rubber-stamping which the senate had to do in order for a lex to be valid, was done before the proposal was voted on in the assembly. But in the very early years of the republic it had been given afterwards. Sometimes the senate had<br />
refused to give it, probably on the grounds of some technical flaw in the proposal. This had given the senate an effective power to veto legislation which had already been approved by the assembly. Quite soon this was recognized<br />
as intolerable, and a lex was passed which required the patrum auctoritas to be given beforehand. This meant that any technical flaws could be fixed before voting, and so the assembly could vote in the confident knowledge that if it approved the proposal, then that proposal would become law.<br />
<br />
This was, one can easily see, a very sensible and practical change. The senate is a smaller body than the assembly and much easier to convene and handle. Its meetings can be conducted more efficiently than those of the assembly. It makes sense for a proposal to be checked for technical faults by the senate before being voted on by the assembly, rather than afterwards. It also makes sense to combine that technical checking with a more general discussion of the merits of the proposal, so that the magistrate can make changes based on the senate's advice.<br />
<br />
Chapter I.D, though, reverses this change by putting the senate's part in proceedings after the vote in the assembly. But magistrates nonetheless, for the reasons I've mentioned, still regard it as sensible and useful to get the senate's advice before putting proposals to the assembly. So we have an odd situation in which the proposal is put to the senate, and then to the assembly, and then back to the senate again. Okay, it's odd, but is there anything actually wrong with it?<br />
<br />
I think possibly there is. You see, it is all very well to say that the first vote in the senate is merely advisory and has no effect on the process itself. Technically this is true, but in practice it is not. If, in the first meeting of the senate, the proposal is approved by a vote of 20 to 5, you can make a safe bet that, if the assembly also approves it, then the second meeting of the senate will approve the proposal by a vote of about 20 to 5. Yes, technically it is only the second vote that has any legal effect, but it is of no practical importance because the first vote has told us what the result is going to be.<br />
<br />
So, by the time the assembly comes to vote, everyone knows how the senate is going to vote. If the senate has already voted to approve the proposal, then the vote of the assembly can still make a difference. If, however, the senate has already voted against the proposal, then there is really very little point in the assembly voting at all, because it's clear that the proposal is not going to make it into law even if the assembly approves it. Perhaps the magistrate may not bother to put it to the assembly at all.<br />
<br />
Does that really matter? Not a great deal, but it does make a bit of a mockery of the procedure as it is on paper. If the lex constutitiva has some good reason for requiring the senate to give its approval after the assembly and not before, then the practice of having a preliminary discussion in the senate entirely negates whatever that good reason was, because the senate-meeting that really matters will always be the one before the assembly, not the one after. And if, on the other hand, it is actually better to have the senate vote beforehand, then that means the procedure in chapter I.D is imperfect and, since it is being effectively circumvented, should really be changed. Either way, it cannot possibly be sensible to have the senate vote twice on precisely the same proposal.<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Category:Res publica (Nova Roma)]]</div>Marcus Curiatius Complutensis