Forum Romanum


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Humor, Pagans, Das Reich
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 00:22:50 -0000

> There's an old saying to the effect that "conspiracism is the
> sophistication of the ignorant." I think a good dose of careful
> skepticism is in order when considering the claims put forth.
>
> -- Marinus

Salve Marine,

With that I agree. You could also add that often the best
explainations seem to be the simplist.
There is a very good book out on the Market called "Why People
Believe Strange Things" By Michael Shermer. In my opinion it should
be compulsory reading for anyone finishing school. Covers everything
from Flying saucers to paraphyscology.
The funniest story came from an Afrocentrist professor who gave a
lecture that all our western philosophy came from sub saharan Africa
and that Aristotle stole the information from the Library of
Alexandria and plagerized it as his own work. Shermer merely pointed
out at that public university lecture that it sounded all fascinating
but the Library of Alexandria was not built until 200 years after
Aristotles' death. They were sure upset with him.(Lol)

Regards,

Quintus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] The "Evil Left" Look Out!
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 20:37:04 -0400

Salve M. Octavius Solaris

We are here to educate as well as debate and discuss. Please read Reagan: In His Own Hand By
Kiron K. Skinner/ Annelise and Martin Anderson.

It show Reagan for what he was, an intellectual with a first class mind.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
----- Original Message -----
From: M. Octavius Solaris
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 11:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] The "Evil Left" Look Out!

Salve Luci Sicini,

> LOL,
> Take note of the complaint about portraying President
> Bush as stupid. This also held true for President
> Reagan, and pretty much any other Conservative
> politican.

Reagan reportedly said, after a visit to South America: "Would you
believe... it's all different countries there!". Bush is dyslectic, adressed
the Greeks as Grecians and called Spanish pm Aznar Anzar. There are numerous
sites with lots and lots of other so-called bushisms. The fact that he
graduated from college doesn't make him smarter. College cultivates
anything, including lack of intelligence (experience speaking here, and lots
of anecdotes). There surely have been intelligent Republican presidents,
mind you, but not Bush nor Reagan.

> For years the far left has attempted to portray
> themselves as "enlightened intelectiuals" and
> attempted to downgrade any who disagreed with them as
> being stupid red necks. If the tables are turned and
> the gulibility of the leftists is pointed out they
> react like 6 year old whinning because thier tatics
> have been used against them.

Fair is fair. This is true.

> Orwells points are consistant because the gulible
> nitwit introduced a link to one of the lunatic fringes
> hate filled anti American sites that tracks recent
> Iraqi deaths while ignoring the far larger numbers
> murdered by the regime they worked so hard to keep in
> power.

Yes. But don't forget that the UN embargo against Iraq only hurt its
citizens. It didn't affect Saddam. Well, now it matters little, Saddam is
gone!

> The hate filled pinheads of the far right are
> denounced by the majority of conservatives. The same
> can't be said about the more mainstream left
> denouncing it's bigots. They not only fail to denounce
> them, they rise to defend them when others denounce
> them.

I can't see myself defending them. I don't sympathise with our local
communist party, for instance (which got a staggering 0,2% of our votes in
last election). I do rise to defend the left wing when once again the
leftists are made out to be moonies. And that's that :).

Vale bene,
M. Octavius Solaris

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] The "Evil Left" Look Out!
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 20:37:04 -0400


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Off topic?
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 20:57:17 -0400

Salve

Heathen Renewal ( sorry if I missed it but do you have a NR name?) said in part

"Invading foreign nations while murdering the populace in order to seize their oil
fields is hardly noble, American , or "liberating", no matter what kind of crazy spin you want to put on it."

No matter how many times you and the left say it this war was not about OIL.

As I and others have pointed out before, if oil is all we were after , Canada and Mexico are still a lot closer and have vastly smaller military establishments, than Iraq. Just before Gulf War I Iraq had ( on paper at least) the four largest military in the world . Canada's and Mexico's military would be ranked lower than that.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] The "Evil Left" Look Out!
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 18:09:44 -0700 (PDT)

--- Heathen Renewal <heathenrenewal@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > The Taliandits? They didn't exist until AFTER the
> > Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan and the US
> ceased
> > funding anyone there. Of course it's easier to
> > mindlessly bleat the "funded the taliban" lie than
> > to
> > check out the facts, certainly easier when the lie
> > reinforces prejudices.
>
>
> Who is the "Taliandits" ????
>
> I said TALIBAN, who were the force that, were
> trained
> and armed and funded by the U.S. government (while
> Osama bin Laden lead their military arm) drove the
> Soviets out of Afghanistan. What pray tell, are you
> talking about?
>

LSD:I Should have known better than to use a pun in a
discusion with an idiot. TALIBANdits are the Taliban.

The Taliban (Students of Allah) were founded by Mullah
Omar two years AFTER the US stoped it's aid to groups
fighting the USSR. They didn't exist when we were
involved in the region, and they were formed for the
express purpose of overthrowing the groups that we had
assisted. Bin Laden had an independant operation going
at the same time. He was a financer, not a military
leader. He was bringing money from the Gulf to some of
the groups that was fighting the USSR.

Neither the United States, nor Bin Laden aided all of
the more than 20 seperate groups that were collectivly
called the Mujahiden. There were some groups that
accepted aid from both (as well as other assorted
parties that had an intrest in the region). This
overlap in aid to a few of the groups, none of which
was the Taliban, was as close as the US came to
working with Bin Laden.
>
> Saddam was ORIGINALLY first supported by the USA,
> and
> yes, later by the Soviets, when the USA switched to
> side with Iran against Iraq, hence , next the
> Soviets
> stepped in to be their next "sugar daddy". Of
> course,
> this switch happened several times,

LSD: LOL, you are a font of Left wing lies. The Soviet
association with the Ba'ath started in 1968, shortly
after the Coup that bought Saddam's cousin to power.
This close association continued after Saddam used his
postion as head of the security forces to reduce his
cousin to pupet status, and then forcing him out in
1979.

The US never allied itself with either side. Our
intrest was that neither the butchers in Baghdad nor
the nutcases in Tehran emerge as the winner, so we
provided aid to whichever side was losing at the
moment.

> and after the
> second Iraq invasion and NO WEAPONS OF MASS
> DESTRUCTION were EVER located, the US government was
> next claiming the illusive weapons of mass
> destruction
> where in Syria and/or in Iran, and so the silly game
> continues. But thanks for sharing your Faux News

LSD: LOL, like all your ilk you prefer news from
assorted nutcase far left sources to Fox News, and
can't stand the idea that someone isn't parroting your
sides nonsense.

> information with me....Perhaps I can draw a cartoon
> using your exact quotes to illustrate my point :P
> The USA , have ALWAYS been the real threat to world
> peace, and the regime holding all the true 'weapons
> of
> mass destruction", enough to blow up the world ten
> times over, which they have used several times
> against
> several ethnic groups and peoples over the past few
> years; from the Serbians to the Afghans to the
> Iraqis,
> to the Somalians, and believe me, it will continue
> unabated, for many years to come , there will be no
> "Pax Americana"...

LSD: Ah the Hatred of the US emerges in full force.
>
> That economic interests have been at the core of
> every
> military action for the past 60 years atleast was
> openly declared by Major General Smedley Butler of
> the
> U.S. Marine Corps in an interview with Money
> magazine
> in December, 1951:

LSD: An amazing feat considering that Gen. Butler died
in 1940. He did give a rambling speach in 1933, that
is popular with the Fringe today. This was between his
Involvement with the Bonus Marchers and the last years
of his life when he was trying to peddle an account of
being approached by Right Wing Billionaires to lead a
facist coup against Roosevelt.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] The "Evil Left" Look Out!
From:	Heathen Renewal <heathenrenewal@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 17:50:02 -0700 (PDT)

--- Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@msn.com> wrote:
> Salve M. Octavius Solaris
>
> We are here to educate as well as debate and
> discuss. Please read Reagan: In His Own Hand By
> Kiron K. Skinner/ Annelise and Martin Anderson.
>
> It show Reagan for what he was, an intellectual
> with a first class mind.

I think studying history shows more about what a man
is about (as well as his actions) , than a book by a
man filled with his own opinions. I won't waste any
time getting into the dirty details about all the
foolish antics of Ronny and the contras and so forth.

=====
"Loud were they, lo, loud when they rode over the burial mound, I stood under the linden wood, under a light shield where the mighty women put forth their powers and sent their yelling spears."

http://www.galacticapublishing.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] The "Evil Left" Look Out!
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 22:59:49 -0400

Salve he who will not give us a name Roman or other wise

So much for an open mine.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus

----- Original Message -----
From: Heathen Renewal
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] The "Evil Left" Look Out!

--- Stephen Gallagher <spqr753@msn.com> wrote:
> Salve M. Octavius Solaris
>
> We are here to educate as well as debate and
> discuss. Please read Reagan: In His Own Hand By
> Kiron K. Skinner/ Annelise and Martin Anderson.
>
> It show Reagan for what he was, an intellectual
> with a first class mind.

I think studying history shows more about what a man
is about (as well as his actions) , than a book by a
man filled with his own opinions. I won't waste any
time getting into the dirty details about all the
foolish antics of Ronny and the contras and so forth.

=====
"Loud were they, lo, loud when they rode over the burial mound, I stood under the linden wood, under a light shield where the mighty women put forth their powers and sent their yelling spears."

http://www.galacticapublishing.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Off topic?
From:	"deciusiunius" <bcatfd@together.net>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 03:26:03 -0000

Salve G. Equiti,

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
<gawne@c...> wrote:
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus writes, in part:
>
> > I do love that most liberals, democrats and neo or Paleolithic
socialists (
> > oh same thing) STILL underestimate George W. Bush. (They are
going to
> > underestimate him into a second term and a 49-50 state landslide)
>
> Don't count your chickens before they hatch, my friend. Pride goeth
> before a fall, and all that. (And just personally, Howard Dean is
> looking real good to me right now.)

LOL! Ho-Ho (as he is called in Vt. on both the left, right and
middle) for president is an entertaining idea, especially here in
Vermont. Right now he wouldn't win his home state, if talk on the
street and polls are any indication. However, that could change.

To be fair, Dean has impressed me far more as a presidential
candidate than as governor. On the occasions I met him or saw him--
not uncommon in a state our size--he always struck me as a wooden,
inarticulate mediocrity (similar in demeanor to Gore though without
Gore's command of issues). However, he seems to have taken acting
lessons or been working with a dialogue coach and has been studying.
Now he is sharp on issues and pretty articulate. His flipflop on the
death penalty (now he supports it) just before he put out feelers for
a presidential run was a smart move to gain ground among moderates.

As you point out elsewhere, he received an A rating from the NRA
while governor. I interviewed him last month for my paper and asked
him if he would flip flop on the gun issue once he gets pressure from
the national Democratic party to do so. He claimed he will not and
said he is against any more national gun laws (pointing out rightly
that such laws are meaningless in rural states such as ours).

The man is running as a McGovern or Wellstone when as governor he was
very much a pragmatic centrist--the liberals in his party not to
mention the Progressive Party often hated him for that. Unfortunately
from his perspective this strategy may help him some among liberal
Democrats but will probably be his death knell in the South.

I and few people I have met here in Dean's state think he has a
chance of winning but he is receiving a few more second glances than
he did a year ago. One friend suggested he is bucking for a cabinet
post--maybe.

If you are interested, here is an article I wrote on him during a
campaign stop:

http://www.caledonianrecord.com/pages/local_news/story/330f79a34

Vale,

Decius Iunius Palladius,
who kept this on list because I am a Nova Roman, you are as well, it
is a topic somewhat interesting to us and may be to other Nova
Romans. Therefore it relates to NR.


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] The Proposed Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum and History
From:	=?iso-8859-1?B?R6VJVkxJVlOlU0NBVlJWUw==?= <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 03:35:12 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.

Salvete, Quirites.

One of the principal reasons put forward in favour of the proposed Lex
Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum is closer historical
approximation to the system of Roma antiqua. It might be useful to
delineate as fully as the sources permit the historical election
process in the Comitia Centuriata for purposes of comparison. I
apologise in advance for the length of this posting, but these are
serious issues.

Two principal primary source descriptions of the division of Roman
citizens into centuries exist -- in Livy, i.43, and in Dionysius,
iv.16ff and vii.59. The account put forward by Dionysius, 193
centuries over five classes (plus the capite censi in a single
century), is regarded by historians as more accurate (the
irreconcilability of two accounts is due to the fact that the
manuscript tradition of Livy on this point is corrupt; there is a
similar problem in Cicero's very incomplete account, which is also
reconcilable with neither Livy's nor Dionysius'). Membership in class
depended on assessed wealth; assignment to the iuniores or seniores
within a class depended on age (tribal assignment in Roma antiqua was
permanent during the republic, while assignment to century was done at
each census). The first (eighty centuries) and the second (22
centuries) classes disposed of an absolute majority of the centuries.

An election in the Comitia Centuriata was opened after a successful
auspicium by the rogatio of the the presiding officer in which he
announced the names of the legal candidates (often with endorsement of
the candidates he supported). While voters could vote for anyone they
chose, the presiding magistrate could reject election of any candidate
whose name he had not announced (there were at least two occasions on
which exercise of this right of rejection resulted in physical attack
on the presiding magistrate and subsequent withdrawal of the rejection
by the magistrate, followed in the second case by a suit to invalidate
the election as being per vim). Voting within century was oral until
the introduction of the tabellae ceratae for elections by the Lex
Gabinia (139 CE), for judicial proceedings by the Lex Cassia (137 CE),
and for legislation by the Lex Papiria (130 CE). Under the Servian
constitution the centuries voted serially from first to last until a
majority of centuries was secured for a number of candidates equal to
the number of vacancies. This changed in the third century CE. We do
not know precisely when this procedure changed, but on the basis of
two passages in Livy (x.13 and xxvi.22) we can date the change to
between 298 CE and 211 CE. Under this change the first century to
vote was selected by lot by the presiding magistrate from among the
iuniores of the first class and called the centuria praerogativa; its
vote was tabulated by the custodes (rogatores was the term applied to
those who recorded the vote while the oral procedure was in place, but
following the Lex Gabinia the rogatores became those who distributed
the tabellae, while those who counted the votes were termed custodes)
and announced. The remainder of the first class and twelve equestrian
centuries then voted simultaneously, their votes were tabulated, and
the result announced. Six centuries of the second class (the sex
suffragia) then voted simultanously, their votes were tabulated, and
the result announced (Staveley's suggestion that the sex suffragia
were the praerogativae of the second class has been generally
accepted). The remainder of the second class then voted, their votes
were tabulated, and the results announced, and so on by class through
the capite censi. However, the voting ceased when a majority of
centuries polled for the number of candidates required to fill the
vacancies, which meant that the poorest classes tended not to be
called to vote.

Each voter received a tabella cerara on which he could write the name
or initials of the candidates he preferred in order of preference for
as many vacancies as were available. The suggestion that the voter
placed a punctus beside the names of his preferences is an error --
the custodes placed a punctus beside the name of every candidate for
each vote cast for him while tallying in and over the centuries.
Roman voters had to write the names or initials of the preferred
candidates on tabellae in the Comitia Centuriata (cf. Cicero, Post
Reditum, 25, De Domo, 112, and In Pisonem, 36; Lex Malacitana, 55;
Plutarch, Cato Minor, xlvi.2; Suetonius, Divus Iulius, lxxx.4).

After tabulation century's vote the custodes would present the
presiding magistrate with a tabella "listing as chosen by the century
as many candidates as there were placed to be filled in an order of
precedence which corresponded to the size of the vote which each had
secured" (Staveley, _Greek and Roman Voting and Elections_,178). Ties
within century were resolved the presiding magistrate by lot, as were
ties across centuries (Cicero, Pro Plancio, 53; Lex Malacitana, 57).
There is no record of a runoff election ever being required in the
Comitia Centuriata.

For further reading on the Comitia Centuriata and its procedures, as
well as those of the other comitia, see C. Nicolet, _Le m�tier de
citoyen dans la Rome r�publicaine (Paris, 1979), E.S. Staveley, _Greek
and Roman Voting and Elections_ (London, 1972), L.R. Taylor, _Roman
Voting Assemblies from the Hannibalic War to the Dictatorship of
Caesar_ (Ann Arbor, 1966), A. Yakobson, _Elections and Electioneering
in Rome: A Study in the Political System of the Late Republic_
(Stuttgart, 1999), and U. Hall, "Species Libertatis: Voting Procedure
in the Late Roman Republic," in M. Austin, ed., _Modus Operandi:
Essays in Honour of G. Richman_, (London 1998).

There are a number of reasons why the historical Comitia Centuriata
did not produce the cycle of runoffs which its NR equivalent does.
There was a common belief that the centuria praerogativa, being the
first to vote after the taking of the auspicium, was a sign of which
candidates were most favourable to the Gods which the later-voting
centuries should take into account. The order of polling the
centuries signalled which candidacies were likely to successful so
that later voters could behave strategically. Clientage played an
enormous role in everyday life and was particularly felt in electoral
behaviour. However, I think another salient difference is that
historical Roman citizenship was something to which greater value was
attached than NR citizenship is accorded by many of its current
enrollees. The idea that no one in a century would vote and the
century would become thereby void would have been regarded as
ludicrous during the republic. People literally fought and died to
gain or retain Roman citizenship (recall the Social War) and the right
to vote in the comitia was one of the most prized rights of full
citizenship. To obtain that right in NR one need only fill out a form
and click the send button. The forthcoming census should go a bit
toward rectifying the situation, but I don't understand why centuries
of assidui (who have to make a financial commitment beyond the
fill-out-a-form-and-click-send requirement of the capite censi) should
ever be returned void. In the interim the proposed Lex Fabia de
Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum is unlikely to do worse than the
current system and may well do slightly better, and I am inclined to
support it on that basis. However, the claim that it is significantly
more historical than the current system is something of an exaggeration.

The sort of system I would prefer to see is one in which:
1. A number of centuries realistic for the number of citizens NR has
is established and those centuries are allocated to class in a formula
proportional to those of the historical Roman system;
2. Voting takes place over up to eight twenty-four hour periods in
the following order:
a. A century of the first class is chosen by lot to vote in the first
period and its results are tabulated and published at the end of that
period;
b. The remainder of the first class centuries vote in the second
period and their results are tabulated and published at the end of
that period;
c. A century of the second class is chosen by lot to vote in the
third period (since we don't have enough assidui to make a 193-century
system work, it seems reasonable to replace the sex suffragia with a
centuria praerogativa of the second class) and its results are
tabulated and published at the end of that period;
d. The remainder of the second class centuries vote in the fourth
period and their results are tabulated and published at the end of
that period;
e. The third class centuries vote in the fifth period and their
results are tabulated and published at the end of that period;
f. The fourth class centuries vote in the sixth period and their
results are tabulated and published at the end of that period;
g. The fifth class centuries vote in the seventh period and their
results are tabulated and published at the end of that period;
h. The capite censi vote in the eighth period as one century and
their results are tabulated and published at the end of that period;
3. In century each voter may vote for a number of candidates equal to
the number of vacancies (or vote for fewer or none). The century is
awarded in order of voter preference to a number of candidates equal
to the number of vacancies, e.g., if there are two vacancies, the top
two polling candidates in the century are awarded the century. If the
same number of votes is recorded for a number of candidates equal to
or greater than the number of vacancies, i.e., a tie, the tie is
resolved by lot by the presiding magistrate.
4. The voting stops when a majority of centuries is awarded to a
number of candidates equal to the number of vacancies. If the same
number of centuries is recorded for a number of candidates equal to or
greater than the number of vacancies, i.e., a tie, the tie is resolved
by lot by the presiding magistrate.

Such a system would put a heavier burden on the rogatores and the
presiding magistrate and would require that citizens know their
centuries and when they vote, but it would come much closer to the
system of ancient Rome than any NR has tried thus far. Perhaps there
is something to the proposition that the closer we approximate Roma
antiqua the more likely we are to see the attitudes of our Roman
forebearers toward the suffrage among our citizenry.

Valete.

G. Iulius Scaurus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] The Proposed Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum and History
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 21:21:07 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete Quirites,
I Agree with the proposal of Giaus Julius, it is
similar to sugestions I have made in the past and I
suggest that we try this system in a mock election
along with the Consuls proposal to see how it works.

--- G�IVLIVS�SCAVRVS <gfr@intcon.net> wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.
SNIP
> The sort of system I would prefer to see is one in
> which:
> 1. A number of centuries realistic for the number
> of citizens NR has
> is established and those centuries are allocated to
> class in a formula
> proportional to those of the historical Roman
> system;
> 2. Voting takes place over up to eight twenty-four
> hour periods in
> the following order:
> a. A century of the first class is chosen by lot to
> vote in the first
> period and its results are tabulated and published
> at the end of that
> period;
> b. The remainder of the first class centuries vote
> in the second
> period and their results are tabulated and published
> at the end of
> that period;
> c. A century of the second class is chosen by lot
> to vote in the
> third period (since we don't have enough assidui to
> make a 193-century
> system work, it seems reasonable to replace the sex
> suffragia with a
> centuria praerogativa of the second class) and its
> results are
> tabulated and published at the end of that period;
> d. The remainder of the second class centuries vote
> in the fourth
> period and their results are tabulated and published
> at the end of
> that period;
> e. The third class centuries vote in the fifth
> period and their
> results are tabulated and published at the end of
> that period;
> f. The fourth class centuries vote in the sixth
> period and their
> results are tabulated and published at the end of
> that period;
> g. The fifth class centuries vote in the seventh
> period and their
> results are tabulated and published at the end of
> that period;
> h. The capite censi vote in the eighth period as
> one century and
> their results are tabulated and published at the end
> of that period;
> 3. In century each voter may vote for a number of
> candidates equal to
> the number of vacancies (or vote for fewer or none).
> The century is
> awarded in order of voter preference to a number of
> candidates equal
> to the number of vacancies, e.g., if there are two
> vacancies, the top
> two polling candidates in the century are awarded
> the century. If the
> same number of votes is recorded for a number of
> candidates equal to
> or greater than the number of vacancies, i.e., a
> tie, the tie is
> resolved by lot by the presiding magistrate.
> 4. The voting stops when a majority of centuries is
> awarded to a
> number of candidates equal to the number of
> vacancies. If the same
> number of centuries is recorded for a number of
> candidates equal to or
> greater than the number of vacancies, i.e., a tie,
> the tie is resolved
> by lot by the presiding magistrate.
>
> Such a system would put a heavier burden on the
> rogatores and the
> presiding magistrate and would require that citizens
> know their
> centuries and when they vote, but it would come much
> closer to the
> system of ancient Rome than any NR has tried thus
> far. Perhaps there
> is something to the proposition that the closer we
> approximate Roma
> antiqua the more likely we are to see the attitudes
> of our Roman
> forebearers toward the suffrage among our citizenry.
>
> Valete.
>
> G. Iulius Scaurus
>
>

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Dii Consentes
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 22 Jun 2003 21:31:19 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete Quirites,

Last Week I made a Nov Roma Desktop theme for Windows
avaible for download. I have just made an addition to
that page, the Dii Consentes Wallpapers.

The Dii Consentes wallpapers are famed works of art of
the Gods. All of them are JPEGs. There are both
1024x768 and 800x600 size images of each God in the
collection. Portions of the originals have been
trimmed in order to make them fit the format of a
monitor screen.

The Orignal paintings and artists are:

Apollo "The Rising of the Sun" Fran�ois Boucher
1753 CE
Ceres "Landscape with Ceres" Jan Brueghel &
Hendrik van Balen c 1630 CE
Diana "Diana and Endymion" Walter Crane 1883 CE
Juno "Juno Receiving the Head of Argos" Jacopo
Amigoni 1730-32 CE
Jupiter "The Council of the Gods" Peter Paul Rubens
1621-25 CE
Mars "Mars Vanquishing Ignorance" Antoon
Claeissens 1605 CE
Mercury "Mercury and Argus" Peter Paul Rubens
1635-38 CE
Minerva "Minerva and the Muses" Jacques Stella
1640-45 CE
Neptune "The Triumph of Neptune" Nicolas Poussin
1634 CE
Venus "The Birth of Venus" Alessandro Botticelli c
1485 CE
Vesta "The Sacrifice to Vesta" Francisco Goya 1771
CE
Vulcan "Vulcan Presenting Arms to Venus for Aeneas"
Fran�ois Boucher 1756 CE

The Nova Roma theme and the Dii Consentes wallpapers
can be downloaded at
http://www.brandxcomputers.com/downloads.html

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: The Proposed Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum and History
From:	"deciusiunius" <bcatfd@together.net>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 05:04:44 -0000

Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus G. Iulio Scauro S.P.D.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, G�IVLIVS�SCAVRVS <gfr@i...>
wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.
>
> Salvete, Quirites.
> There are a number of reasons why the historical Comitia Centuriata
> did not produce the cycle of runoffs which its NR equivalent does.

<snipped>

>However, I think another salient difference is
>that historical >Roman citizenship was something to which greater
>value was
> attached than NR citizenship is accorded by many of its current
> enrollees. The idea that no one in a century would vote and the
> century would become thereby void would have been regarded as
> ludicrous during the republic. People literally fought and died to
> gain or retain Roman citizenship (recall the Social War) and the
>right
> to vote in the comitia was one of the most prized rights of full
> citizenship. To obtain that right in NR one need only fill out a
>form and click the send button.

You have hit upon a key problem. Nova Roman citizenship is too easy
to acquire and is therefore undervalued.

>The forthcoming census should go a bit
> toward rectifying the situation, but I don't understand why
>centuries
> of assidui (who have to make a financial commitment beyond the
> fill-out-a-form-and-click-send requirement of the capite censi)
>should
> ever be returned void.

It is disgraceful; I too do not understand why so few people vote.

>In the interim the proposed Lex Fabia de
> Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum is unlikely to do worse than the
> current system and may well do slightly better, and I am inclined to
> support it on that basis. However, the claim that it is
>significantly more historical than the current system is something
>of an exaggeration.

You are quite right.

> The sort of system I would prefer to see is one in which:
> 1. A number of centuries realistic for the number of citizens NR
>has is established and those centuries are allocated to class in a
>formula proportional to those of the historical Roman system;
> 2. Voting takes place over up to eight twenty-four hour periods in
> the following order:

> a. A century of the first class is chosen by lot to vote in the
>first
> period and its results are tabulated and published at the end of
that
> period;
> b. The remainder of the first class centuries vote in the second
> period and their results are tabulated and published at the end of
> that period;

<snipped>

> 4. The voting stops when a majority of centuries is awarded to a
> number of candidates equal to the number of vacancies. If the same
> number of centuries is recorded for a number of candidates equal to
>or greater than the number of vacancies, i.e., a tie, the tie is
>resolved by lot by the presiding magistrate.
>
> Such a system would put a heavier burden on the rogatores and the
> presiding magistrate and would require that citizens know their
> centuries and when they vote, but it would come much closer to the
> system of ancient Rome than any NR has tried thus far. Perhaps
>there is something to the proposition that the closer we approximate
>Roma antiqua the more likely we are to see the attitudes of our Roman
> forebearers toward the suffrage among our citizenry.

At the risk of sounding maudlin, I must say your post and proposal
are brilliant. In one post you have done what so many could not over
the years: propose a system that reasonably emulates the ancients and
is workable in our internet based system. In retrospect it is easy to
ask, why didn't we think of it before? That is a testimony to the
clarity of your post.

Cives, I drop any preference I have for the current or old system in
favor of this. We are trying to model ourselves after the ancients--
this proposal is the framework to make our elections do that. I ask
the consul to scrap his proposal and work with G. Iulius Scaurus to
implement this one.

Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus,
Senator


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] nrsummercamp at yahoo groups
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 01:22:07 -0400

Salve Romans

In order to bring the idea of a Nova Roma Summer Camp in to being I have set up a site for group discussions at nrsummercamp at yahoo groups. com Any citizens interested in helping with endeavor should join ASAP .

We will be planning on a summer camp for the summer of 2004 in the Med-Atlantic Province but our program should be develop with the idea that it can and should be used any where in Nova Roma. We want to work hard and fast this summer so that information can be deliver early this fall to schools and other places we identify so that potential campers can consider us as an option.

Please join at nrsummercamp-subscribe@yahoogroups.com you can send message to
nrsummercamp@yahoogroups.com

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Fortuna Favet Fortibus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Proposed Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum and History
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 01:21:06 -0400

Salve

Senator Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus, said in part

"Cives, I drop any preference I have for the current or old system in
favor of this. We are trying to model ourselves after the ancients--
this proposal is the framework to make our elections do that.

I ask the consul to scrap his proposal and work with G. Iulius Scaurus to implement this one. "

For what it is worth I agree completely!
We need a new election lex based on G. Iulius Scaurus brilliant post.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Curator Differum et Quaestor
Fortuna Favet Fortibus

----- Original Message -----
From: deciusiunius
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 1:04 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Proposed Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum and History

Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus G. Iulio Scauro S.P.D.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, G�IVLIVS�SCAVRVS <gfr@i...>
wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.
>
> Salvete, Quirites.
> There are a number of reasons why the historical Comitia Centuriata
> did not produce the cycle of runoffs which its NR equivalent does.

<snipped>

>However, I think another salient difference is
>that historical >Roman citizenship was something to which greater
>value was
> attached than NR citizenship is accorded by many of its current
> enrollees. The idea that no one in a century would vote and the
> century would become thereby void would have been regarded as
> ludicrous during the republic. People literally fought and died to
> gain or retain Roman citizenship (recall the Social War) and the
>right
> to vote in the comitia was one of the most prized rights of full
> citizenship. To obtain that right in NR one need only fill out a
>form and click the send button.

You have hit upon a key problem. Nova Roman citizenship is too easy
to acquire and is therefore undervalued.

>The forthcoming census should go a bit
> toward rectifying the situation, but I don't understand why
>centuries
> of assidui (who have to make a financial commitment beyond the
> fill-out-a-form-and-click-send requirement of the capite censi)
>should
> ever be returned void.

It is disgraceful; I too do not understand why so few people vote.

>In the interim the proposed Lex Fabia de
> Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum is unlikely to do worse than the
> current system and may well do slightly better, and I am inclined to
> support it on that basis. However, the claim that it is
>significantly more historical than the current system is something
>of an exaggeration.

You are quite right.

> The sort of system I would prefer to see is one in which:
> 1. A number of centuries realistic for the number of citizens NR
>has is established and those centuries are allocated to class in a
>formula proportional to those of the historical Roman system;
> 2. Voting takes place over up to eight twenty-four hour periods in
> the following order:

> a. A century of the first class is chosen by lot to vote in the
>first
> period and its results are tabulated and published at the end of
that
> period;
> b. The remainder of the first class centuries vote in the second
> period and their results are tabulated and published at the end of
> that period;

<snipped>

> 4. The voting stops when a majority of centuries is awarded to a
> number of candidates equal to the number of vacancies. If the same
> number of centuries is recorded for a number of candidates equal to
>or greater than the number of vacancies, i.e., a tie, the tie is
>resolved by lot by the presiding magistrate.
>
> Such a system would put a heavier burden on the rogatores and the
> presiding magistrate and would require that citizens know their
> centuries and when they vote, but it would come much closer to the
> system of ancient Rome than any NR has tried thus far. Perhaps
>there is something to the proposition that the closer we approximate
>Roma antiqua the more likely we are to see the attitudes of our Roman
> forebearers toward the suffrage among our citizenry.

At the risk of sounding maudlin, I must say your post and proposal
are brilliant. In one post you have done what so many could not over
the years: propose a system that reasonably emulates the ancients and
is workable in our internet based system. In retrospect it is easy to
ask, why didn't we think of it before? That is a testimony to the
clarity of your post.

Cives, I drop any preference I have for the current or old system in
favor of this. We are trying to model ourselves after the ancients--
this proposal is the framework to make our elections do that. I ask
the consul to scrap his proposal and work with G. Iulius Scaurus to
implement this one.

Decius Iunius Palladius Invictus,
Senator

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Election Laws
From:	"deciusiunius" <bcatfd@together.net>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 05:36:48 -0000

Salve G. Equiti,

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
<gawne@c...> wrote:
> "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@y...> writes:

> There are many things which are, inherently, unknowable.
> We ought not to bind ourselves to known imperfect methods
> out of fear of that unknown. We are, as were our Roman
> forbearers in antiquity, continuously striving toward
> the fairest possible way of insuring the proper ballance
> in these things.

First and foremost we are striving to be "in all manners practical
and acceptable, as the modern restoration of the ancient Roman
Republic."

We are not striving for what is necessarily the "fairest" but for
what is the most Roman--what most closely emulates the ancients. That
is often contradictory to modern sensibilities--so be it.

<snipped>

> What I think we can be sure of is that if we adopt this means of
> electing our magistrates, the most extreme of our politically
> active citizens will be less likely to win an election. Personally,
> I don't think that's a bad thing. I favor the Via Media as the
> surest route forward. While I value the opinions of the more
> extreme voices, I'd just as soon they not be able to attain
> majesterial office.

Goods Gods Marine, (double-entendre there Top--is that why you chose
the name?) just WHAT is that supposed to mean? The most *extreme*
citizens? Just what is an extreme Nova Roman and why are you so
afraid of them being elected? What would they do if elected? And the
Via Media between *what?*

Would some describe YOU as an extreme citizen? Would this system make
*you* less viable as a potential candidate?

Vale,

Semper Fi,

Decius Iunius Palladius


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Election Laws
From:	"deciusiunius" <bcatfd@together.net>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 05:41:20 -0000

Salvete,

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "deciusiunius" <bcatfd@t...> wrote:
> Goods Gods Marine, (double-entendre there Top--is that why you
>chose the name?)

Clarification: double-entendre was the wrong choice of words, as it
made it sound risque. Double-meaning would have sufficed. I hit
cancel a second too late...

D. Iunius Palladius


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] (unknown)
From:	=?iso-8859-1?B?R6VJVkxJVlOlU0NBVlJWUw==?= <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 07:02:10 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.

Avete, Quirites.

Here's a link to "Dreams of Antiquity: Bibliographische
Online-Datenbank zu Tr�umen und Visionen in der Antike [ Bibliographic
Online Database on Dreams and Visions in Antiquity]":

http://www.gnomon.ku-eichstaett.de/dreams/index.html

This site, created by Dr. Gregor Weber (Dept. of Ancient History,
Catholic University of Eichst�tt), provides a searchable database of
both primary and secondary sources relating to dreams, visions,
oracles, and divination in the ancient Mediterranean world.
First-time users will probably want to review all the thesaurus
categories to get an overview of the material covered. While the site
is in German, the citations cover the usual range of classical and
modern European languages.

Valete, Quirites.

G. Iulius Scaurus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: The Proposed Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum and History
From:	=?iso-8859-1?B?R6VJVkxJVlOlU0NBVlJWUw==?= <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 07:41:33 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.

Salvete, Quirites.

I just noticed some unfortunate typos. In the sentences of my posting
"Voting within century was oral until the introduction of the tabellae
ceratae for elections by the Lex Gabinia (139 CE), for judicial
proceedings by the Lex Cassia (137 CE), and for legislation by the Lex
Papiria (130 CE)" and "We do not know precisely when this procedure
changed, but on the basis of two passages in Livy (x.13 and xxvi.22)
we can date the change to between 298 CE and 211 CE" those dates
should all be BCE. I buggered up a macro in the wordprocessor.

Valete.

G. Iulius Scaurus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Elections: 'Stacking the Deck'
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 11:06:27 +0100 (BST)

A. Apollonius Cordus to all citizens and peregrines,
greetings.

I think perhaps my 'lump-everything-in-one-post' idea
was not one of my best. A new strategy, then: one
message per issue.

So let's talk about the suggestion that the Consul's
proposal 'stacks the deck' against 'extremist'
candidates.

This is not entirely accurate. What the system does is
prevent candidates who are not supported by the
majority of centuries from winning. If an 'extremist'
candidate has the support of a majority of centuries,
then that candidate will win, no matter how extreme he
may be. If, on the other hand, that extremist
candidate is supported by only a small proportion of
the centuries, he will not win.

Likewise, a 'moderate' or 'mediocre' candidate will
win only if he is supported by the majority, and will
not win if he is not.

Now, before anyone else says anything on this topic, I
would encourage them *very strongly* to actually
produce an example to support any assertion they may
make about whom the deck is stacked against or in
favour of. Electoral systems are mathematical, logical
systems which can be proven to do this or that, and
there is no reason for anyone to believe an assertion
not backed up with at least one example.

For examples to illustrate this message, see the
Handbook.

Cordus

--- "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com> wrote:

---------------------------------

--- Rachel Dugdale <livia@strategikon.org> wrote:
> Senator L. Sinicius Drusus first wrote:
> > LSD: That assumption is the first problem with a
> > simulation. "Liking" a canidate isn't the only
> > reason
> > someone might vote for them.
>
> Ah, it seems I phrased myself badly. The important
> factor is whether or not a person chooses to vote
> for
> any given candidate, regardless of reasons
> (including
> like and dislike, tactical voting, etc). I believe
> that once you take account of this, my previous
> arguments stand.
>
> And later:
> > These types of reactions create a built in bias
> > favoring the medicore canidate who is few people's
> > first choice, but who is considered unobjectable
> > enough to rank as a lot of people's third choice.
>
> Mediocre, no - not necessarily. Moderate, perhaps,
> but then the question is whether this is a terrible
> thing. Someone who everyone likes a bit could well
> make the general population more content than
> someone
> who half of them hate vehemently.
>
> Also, as Marinus has quite correctly pointed out
> (but
> it is important enough to bear repeating) this is
> inherent in any system.
>
> It's also just a variation of something one often
> encounters throughout life, called compromise.
>
> And in a later email:
> > So one of the intents of this "fair" method of
> > counting votes is to decrease the chances that a
> > canidate whom the authers disapprove of will be
> > elected, even though that canidate may have
> attained
> > office under a traditional Roman method of
> counting
> > the ballots.
>
> This is simply untrue. The intent of this - as
> every
> other - fair method of voting is to ensure that the
> candidates with the support of the electorate are
> those who are elected.
>
> Please, don't muddy our discussion of whether this
> particular method works with talk of whether it is
> well intended.
>
> As ever,
>
> Gaia Fabia Livia
>
>

"Fair" is one of those loaded political buzz words
that people use to attempt to intimidate the others
without making an argument. The more often I see it
applied to this lex the less I think of it.

Attempting to stack the deck against some canidates
may meet your definition of fair, but it certainly
dosen't meet mine.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
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SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Election Laws
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Decimus=20Iunius=20Silanus?= <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 11:25:01 +0100 (BST)

Salvete Aule Apolloni et Gnae Equiti,

Thank you both for referring to my scenario. You have
both made similar comments so I shall reply to you as
one if I may.

Firstly, you both criticise the example for referring
to political parties, which it does not. I agree that
formulated political parties do not exist here in NR,
and thank the heavens for that. However, the existence
of factions cannot be argued against. I'm sorry
gentlemen, but despite your protestations many here
would consider you both to be members of the current
ruling faction. I merely used this scenario to
highlight the proposed systems advantageousness to any
such dominant or ruling faction, however slim the
preference of that faction to the voters.

You both refer to the fact that these proposals relate
to the Centuriate Assembly, which does not elect 5
single office magistrates. Slightly pedantic, if I may
be so bold. I merely used a simplified scenario that
could illustrate a potential flaw in the proposed
system.

Cordus quite rightly differentiates between individual
voters and their influence on election outcomes and
the voting outcomes of individual centuries. However,
the three cannot be separated. Individual voters
affect the voting outcomes of the centuries which in
turn will affect the outcome of the election. Again, I
merely simplified the process for the benefit of the
scenario.

You both argue that at least endless run-offs will be
avoided. I agree entirely, but for the purpose of this
argument that is rather beside the point. I am just a
little concerned that the important aspect of checks
and balances in the system is retained. To my mind,
run-off elections are far more preferable to losing
the dynamics of this quintessential Roman republican
ideal.

I put forward a scenario that illustrates, in simple
terms, a potential adverse side effect with this
proposed system. I am reassured that you both agree
with me that any 'user testing' should look to ensure
that any such flaw does not occur.

Valete

Decimus Iunius Silanus.

__________________________________________________
Yahoo! Plus - For a better Internet experience
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Proposed Lex Fabia de Ratione--- a Question
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 06:56:36 EDT

Q. Fabius Maximus S.P.D.
Salvete, Quirites!
I believe we are at the point in this discussion where we must question, what
are we doing here? Now becomes a philosophical question: Why are we together
here in NR and doing what we are doing?

If you can answer that question truthfully, it would have to be because we
all admire Rome. And we all want to draw closer the Her, the only way to do
this
is to become more Roman. And how do we do this? By imitating our spiritual
ancestors.

We do this in several ways: Some of us don loricas and pick up scutums and go
forth to teach the public about the Roman army. As we experience the
discomfort and the effort one puts forth to be a legionary we connect with those men
1800 years in our past, and for shining moment we are one.

Or as sitting senators, making speeches and considering what is good for
Rome, balancing our needs with those of Rome's', a constant tight rope that is
walked during every Senate call, and for brief moment, we are the Senate of the
Republic of Rome.

Or reviving the Religio. The translations, the formulas, the guesswork,
asking for divine influence, yet as the work takes shape, the pride that comes
knowing that all this may one day make a huge difference in the world one day,
and we feel the exhilaration that the Priests felt themselves those many years
ago.

Or sewing a tunica or stolla out of wool. So we can wear what the Romans
wore,
and experience the roughness of the cloth, the humidly of wool and hot day
in the city by the Tiber feel what our role models felt. Why? Because it
makes more Roman.

Since this is all so important to us, why then do we award Roman citizenship
as if it was a cracker jack bauble?

I don't have tell you that citizenship in the Republic was important. The
Samnites, Lucanians, Apulians and the Pinciati, fought a war with Rome to gain
citizenship.
Which they lost, but the cost was so high to Rome, that they awarded it to
those nations anyway. Rome could not afford a second war.
Allies often demanded citizenship in return for aid, and the Romans refused,
giving instead the title "Friends of the Roman people." expecting the allies
to be happy with that.

This is where I have felt since day one we have failed. Nova Roma
citizenship is nothing. Why you can walk away and if you want rejoin 6 months later.
And this is a fairly recent law, there was a time, you could walk away, and
rejoin the next day.
The greatest punishment a Roman could receive is banishment. Because with it
came your loss of citizenship. You could no longer wear the toga. You could
no longer demand protection, or redress from Roman Law. You were outside the
Law.

We want to become more Roman, true. Yet we have ignored the basic important
part of being Roman. Citizenship. And as long we continue to do so, we will
never
be Romanlike. We will never connect. Remember, I said it as Consul, and I
say it today: "Roman citizenship is a privilege. Not a right."
And once we learn to accept that, we shall began to make strides here in this
republic.

Which brings us to Lex Fabia de Ratione. This is not a historic law. It
will work, but it ignores the most basic tenet of being Roman. The privilege of
voting.
We can write a much better law, one that is true to history. And we should
do so.
Why? Because we can, because we are Nova Romans, because our spiritual
ancestors would expect it. As we should expect it from ourselves. How else can
we become more Romanlike?

Valete


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Off topic?
From:	"Marcus Iulius " <m_iulius@virgilio.it>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 11:09:08 +0000

Ave Tiberi Pauline,

while I'm reading all Off-topic (?) messages, I was attracted by a sentence
of yours:

>No nation, not even my beloved Rome, has done more to advance the >cause
of the human race as the United States has.

could you explain me this better? I'm sure many citizens (like me) here
completely disagree with you... at least if you let this with no further
comments.

M IVL PERVSIANVS
Scriba Curatoris�Differum


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Dii Consentes
From:	"M Flavius Aurelius" <marcus.flavius@bigpond.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 20:08:47 +1000

Drusis,

And as one citizen who is enjoying your work, full marks to you. Great to
see citizens helping each other out in "Romanising" our day to day lives.

M Flavius Aurelius

----- Original Message -----
From: "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
To: <backalley@yahoogroups.com>; "Nova Roma" <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>;
"Religio" <ReligioRomana@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 2:31 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Dii Consentes

Salvete Quirites,

Last Week I made a Nov Roma Desktop theme for Windows
avaible for download. I have just made an addition to
that page, the Dii Consentes Wallpapers.

The Dii Consentes wallpapers are famed works of art of
the Gods. All of them are JPEGs. There are both
1024x768 and 800x600 size images of each God in the
collection. Portions of the originals have been
trimmed in order to make them fit the format of a
monitor screen.

The Orignal paintings and artists are:

Apollo "The Rising of the Sun" Fran�ois Boucher
1753 CE
Ceres "Landscape with Ceres" Jan Brueghel &
Hendrik van Balen c 1630 CE
Diana "Diana and Endymion" Walter Crane 1883 CE
Juno "Juno Receiving the Head of Argos" Jacopo
Amigoni 1730-32 CE
Jupiter "The Council of the Gods" Peter Paul Rubens
1621-25 CE
Mars "Mars Vanquishing Ignorance" Antoon
Claeissens 1605 CE
Mercury "Mercury and Argus" Peter Paul Rubens
1635-38 CE
Minerva "Minerva and the Muses" Jacques Stella
1640-45 CE
Neptune "The Triumph of Neptune" Nicolas Poussin
1634 CE
Venus "The Birth of Venus" Alessandro Botticelli c
1485 CE
Vesta "The Sacrifice to Vesta" Francisco Goya 1771
CE
Vulcan "Vulcan Presenting Arms to Venus for Aeneas"
Fran�ois Boucher 1756 CE

The Nova Roma theme and the Dii Consentes wallpapers
can be downloaded at
http://www.brandxcomputers.com/downloads.html

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Elections: Historicity and the Iulian system
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 12:12:30 +0100 (BST)

A. Apollonius Cordus to all citizens and peregrines,
greetings.

Let me first of all thank Iulius Scaurus for his
comprehensive and erudite message, and for his
constructive suggestions.

It is true that, in its method of operation, the
proposed Fabian system is not very close to the
historical system. What I should like to emphasise,
however, is that it retains the only significant
*advantage* of the historical system, which is the
ability of voters to avoid 'wasting' their votes by
voting for candidates who turn out to have no chance
of winning.

To me, Nova Roma is about reproducing the good things
about the ancient Republic, not everything about it.
It is not enough to ask 'how did they do it?', we need
to ask 'why did they do it thus?', and then, 'how can
we achieve the same benefits and goals?' However, I
accept that not everyone feels the same way, and there
may perhaps be those who feel that historical accuracy
at the expense of efficiency and fairness is
acceptable.

Let's consider Iulius Scaurus' proposal specifically,
and consider how it might work.

> 1. A number of centuries realistic for the number
> of citizens NR has is established and those
> centuries are allocated to class in a formula
> proportional to those of the historical Roman
system;

For the sake of a small and easily comprehensible
test, I'll posit 12 centuries. Historically the first
class contained 88 centuries (using Scaurus' figures,
which I accept without question), which was a little
over 41% of the total, and the second contained 22,
11%. So if we have 12 centuries, 5 would be in the
first class, 2 in the second, leaving 5 for the
remaining classes. Since I don't know how the
remaining three classes were divided, I'll assume for
now that they are split roughly equally, giving 2 in
the third, 1 in the fourth, 1 in the fifth and 1 of
capite censi.

> 2. Voting takes place over up to eight twenty-four
> hour periods in the following order:
> a. A century of the first class is chosen by lot to
> vote in the first period and its results are
> tabulated and published at the end of that period;

Though I'm not a Rogator, I must say I don't think
these time-periods are realistic. For a whole century,
containing people from many different time-zones and
little time to spare from their working day, to have
only 24 hours to cast their vote is not very generous.

Moreover, it will necessarily take the Rogators a
while to count the votes. I don't know how long this
normally takes, but for the count to be finished no
more than 24 hours after the century started voting
would surely leave the members of that century only
about 12 hours to actually vote.

This can be changed without too much trouble, but to
be fair to voters we would surely have to allow at
least 48 hours for the casting of votes, not including
the time allowed for the Rogators to count the votes,
which should probably be at least 24 hours (or else
they may have to do it in the middle of the night,
when their counting-skills may not be tip-top). I'd
say these are bare minima, and they already drag the
voting period to a length of 576, or 24 days!

> 3. In century each voter may vote for a number of
> candidates equal to the number of vacancies (or vote
> for fewer or none). The century is
> awarded in order of voter preference to a number of
> candidates equal to the number of vacancies, e.g.,
> if there are two vacancies, the top
> two polling candidates in the century are awarded
> the century.

This does not seem to take into account the difference
between the number of votes the top candidate receives
and the number received by the second candidate.
Consequently the over-all result of the election could
be skewed, possibly by a significant margin, and could
easily result in a candidate being elected who has the
support of a tiny minority.

Example:
Let's say that in a given century of 100 voters one of
three candidates receives 100 votes, another 20 and
the third 10. The first and second candidates are the
choice of that century, yet the second candidate has
only 20% of the vote. Moreover, though the difference
between the first and second candidates is 80%, they
are presented as equal choices of that century.

Taken across the whole election, this could result in
a candidate who is supported by a tiny minority - even
as little as 1% - being elected even though, if asked,
the vast majority of people would have preferred a
candidate who remains unelected.

> 4. The voting stops when a majority of centuries is
> awarded to a number of candidates equal to the
> number of vacancies.

It need hardly be pointed out that this is the most
grossly unfair aspect of the Roman system. The spirit
of their system, that the votes of the higher-status
voters should have more weight, is retained in our
current system of giving greater weight to more active
and experienced citizens by placing them in smaller
centuries. This would remain the case under the Fabian
system.

The historical way of doing it, however, does not
reduce the *weight* of some people's votes, it reduces
the *likelihood* that they will get to vote at all. In
all likelihood many voters willget no chance to vote,
and will feel hugely disenfranchized, quite rightly.

I support the spirit and intent of the ancient system
in giving more experienced and dedicated citizens a
greater voice in elections, but this can be achieved
under the Fabian system without disenfranchizing
voters altogether. I support the advantage the ancient
system gives voters by enabling them to avoid wasting
their votes on candidates who stand no chance, but
this advantage is also provided by the Fabian system.

Now, let's see the system in action (thanks to Fabia
Livia for working out the details of this example):

With 12 centuries, four candidates and two vacancies,
the centuries' preferences might look like this:

1 B A D C
2 C D A B
3 B C A D
4 A C D B
5 C B D A
6 C A B D
7 D C A B
8 B C A D
9 C D A B
10 B C A D
11 A B C D
12 C D A B

So the top two candidates for each century would be:

1 B A |
2 C D |
3 B C | first class
4 A C |
5 C B |

6 C A |
7 D C | second class

8 B C |
9 C D | third class

C would be elected at this point, so the remaining
voters would no longer bother to vote for C and would
revert to their next preferences.

10 B A | fourth class

11 A B | fifth class

12 A D | sixth class

Now, we've run out centuries and no second candidate
has received a majority. So the second vacancy,
according the this system, is left vacant. Is a
run-off called? I imagine so...

I would very much like to hear from Iulius Scaurus or
from the supporters of the Iulian system (if I may so
christen it), what exactly the advantages of this
system are which I have missed, for I don't see any.

It looks like the Fabian system has all the advantages
of the Iulian system and none of the disadvantages. I
stand ready to be enlightened.

Cordus

=====
www.collapsibletheatre.co.uk

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Off topic?
From:	M Flavius Aurelius <marcus.flavius@bigpond.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 21:13:29 +1000

Wouldn't an adequate addressing of this question require a tighter
understanding of the phrase "advance the cause of the human race"?

M Flavius Aurelius

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marcus Iulius " <m_iulius@virgilio.it>
To: "Nova Roma" <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 9:09 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Off topic?

Ave Tiberi Pauline,

while I'm reading all Off-topic (?) messages, I was attracted by a sentence
of yours:

>No nation, not even my beloved Rome, has done more to advance the >cause
of the human race as the United States has.

could you explain me this better? I'm sure many citizens (like me) here
completely disagree with you... at least if you let this with no further
comments.

M IVL PERVSIANVS
Scriba Curatoris Differum

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Elections: Silanus' scenario
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 12:28:14 +0100 (BST)

A. Apollonius Cordus to D. Iunius Silanus and all
citizen & peregrines, greetings.

> However, the existence of factions cannot be argued
> against. I'm sorry gentlemen, but despite your
> protestations many here would consider you both to
> be members of the current ruling faction.

I am told that political factions exist here, and I
see no reason not to believe it. If in order to be a
member of a faction one needs to know about it, then I
am not one; if, however, one can be in a faction
unawares, then for all I know I may be in all of them!

Factions existed in the ancient Republic, of course,
and will tend to form in any political system. The
important difference between these and parties are
that informal factions are much more fluid. They tend
to be based upon the pillars of good feeling, common
interest and common ideals. When the interests of
members of a faction diverge, or when they disagree
over ideals, or when they fall out personally, the
faction itself will faction, and new alliances will be
formed.

This becomes increasingly likely the larger a faction
is, since differences among its members become more
likely the more members there are. Moreover, no
informal faction can organize support in the
systematic way a political party can. These two
factors tend to act against the ability of a faction
to make up or control any large proportion of the
electorate, and the majority of voters will therefore
always tend, in my contention, to vote based not on
who a given faction tells them to vote for but on the
candidates' individual policies, characters and
records.

> You both refer to the fact that these proposals
> relate to the Centuriate Assembly, which does not
> elect 5 single office magistrates. Slightly
> pedantic, if I may be so bold.

Well, you may think so if you please, but I would
suggest that to use an impossible scenario as a
criticism of a proposed law is slightly vacuous. If
you wish to make a point about the proposed Fabian
system for the Centuriate Assembly, it is surely more
effective and more useful to cite an example which
could conceivably occur in the Centuriate Assembly.

> I put forward a scenario that illustrates, in simple
> terms, a potential adverse side effect with this
> proposed system.

If I may be so bold as you have been above, I would
argue that you have not, in point of fact, put forward
a scenario that illustrates anything at all about the
Fabian system, since your example misunderstands the
Fabian system on four different points.

There is an issue here, and let us by all means
discuss it. But the citizens are not fools, and are
quite capable of understanding an example which uses
the system which is actually being proposed, rather
than a simplified version of it which produces
completely different results. If you wish to
illustrate an argument with an example, how is anyone
to know whether your argument is correct or not if the
example is faulty? All your example shows is that
there may or may not be a problem with a system which
nobody is proposing! Please let us have plausible
examples using the Fabian system, not fictional scenes
which can surely only be intended to alarm the
credulous, of whom I see none here.

Cordus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Proposed Lex Fabia de Ratione--- a Question
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 12:43:05 +0100 (BST)

A. Apollonius Cordus to Senator & Consular Q. Fabius
Maximus and all citizens and peregrines, greetings.

> I don't have tell you that citizenship in the
> Republic was important. The Samnites, Lucanians,
> Apulians and the Pinciati, fought a war with Rome to
> gain citizenship.

To divert for a moment from matters of present moment,
may I suggest that the sources are far from clear on
this, and it is quite possible to argue that many of
Rome's opponents in the Social War were in fact
seeking not to gain Roman citizenship but to replace
Rome with an Italian confederacy. My personal feeling
is that some wanted one, some the other, and others
were simply confused and angry with no clear goals at
all.

But back to the meat & potatoes:

> We want to become more Roman, true. Yet we have
> ignored the basic important part of being Roman.
> Citizenship. And as long we continue to do so, we
> will never be Romanlike...
...
> Which brings us to Lex Fabia de Ratione. This is
> not a historic law. It will work, but it ignores
> the most basic tenet of being Roman. The privilege
> of voting.

Sir, I am utterly baffled. Your oration was masterful,
and inspires me to cling to my citizenship and
begrudge it to others. But what on earth has it to do
with the Fabian system of calculating votes in the
Centuriate Assembly?

In what way, exactly, does it ignore the privilege of
voting?
By allowing all citizens to vote? This was a basic
right of citizens under Roman law, the right of
suffragium.
By declining to make them all vote at different times
and for very short periods at the cost of unnecessary
labour and confusion? I do not believe that this makes
the ability to vote a lesser privilege than it is or
ever was.
By allowing everyone to vote, rather than
disenfranchizing those who happen to be in the lower
voting-classes? I do not believe that taking the vote
away from people legally entitled to wield it will
help to raise the value of citizenship; rather, it
will give the lie to the constitutional promise that
every citizen has the right to vote.

You had my ear, sir, with your stirring words, and
where I expected a crushing climax, I found a non
sequitur. It makes no sense at all. I am utterly
baffled.

Cordus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Election Laws
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Rachel=20Dugdale?= <livia@strategikon.org>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 12:58:04 +0100 (BST)

The discussion between myself and Senator L. Sinicius
Drusus has so far run:
> > > So one of the intents of this "fair" method of
> > > counting votes is to decrease the chances that a
> > > canidate whom the authers disapprove of will be
> > > elected, even though that canidate may have
> > attained
> > > office under a traditional Roman method of
> > counting
> > > the ballots.
> >
> > This is simply untrue. The intent of this - as
> > every
> > other - fair method of voting is to ensure that
the
> > candidates with the support of the electorate are
> > those who are elected.
> >
> "Fair" is one of those loaded political buzz words
> that people use to attempt to intimidate the others
> without making an argument. The more often I see it
> applied to this lex the less I think of it.

I should probably say, just for the record, that my
use of the word 'fair' in the above statement was
informed by your use in your earlier email - I removed
the quotation marks to demonstrate that I *do* believe
it is fair, but would probably not have used the word
in that particular sentence if I hadn't been drawing
on what you'd just said.

As it happens, I do believe the proposed system is a
fair one - but perhaps you and I do not agree on what
constitutes fairness in an electoral system. For my
part, I'll tell you now what I think on the matter: I
would define as 'fair' an electoral system which
returns the candidate or candidates with the most
support amongst the electorate.

As for attempting to intimidate, I sincerely hope
no-one has been doing this - it certainly hasn't been
my intention at any stage in our discussion.

There are three different issues in any debate:
whether one agrees with the argument in question,
whether one often agrees with the political views of
the person making the suggestion, and whether one
thinks they are a decent person. I am utterly
uninterested in debating any points of the latter two
kinds (the middle amounts to party-politics and the
last to completely unwarranted personal hostility).

If you think it would help not to use the word 'fair'
in these discussions, please, lay out some criteria by
which we can - without intimidation or 'buzz words' -
discuss the relative merits of these proposals.

As ever,

Gaia Fabia Livia

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Elections: Silanus' scenario
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Decimus=20Iunius=20Silanus?= <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 13:36:33 +0100 (BST)

Salve Aule Apolloni,

> Please let us have plausible
> examples using the Fabian system, not fictional
> scenes
> which can surely only be intended to alarm the
> credulous, of whom I see none here.

Oh, I see. Ok fair enough. I only used the five vacant
magistracy scenario because the resultant math better
emphasises what I see as a potential problem. However,
I believe the same problem could potentially apply to
a two vacant magistracy situation, which most
definately applies to the Comitia Centuriata.

I apologise for any confusion due to my lack of
explanation.

Vale

Decimus Iunius Silanus.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Elections: Silanus' scenario
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 14:06:13 +0100 (BST)

A. Apollonius Cordus to D. Iunius Silanus, and all
citizens and peregrines, greetings.

> Oh, I see. Ok fair enough. I only used the five
> vacant magistracy scenario because the resultant
> math better emphasises what I see as a potential
> problem. However, I believe the same problem could
> potentially apply to a two vacant magistracy
> situation, which most definately applies to the
> Comitia Centuriata.

This is a point worth discussing, certainly, but I
think using a five-vacancy example can only serve to
confuse. If you would care to illustrate the same
point using a two-vacancy example, I'd be interested
to discuss it.

Cordus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Civilization, was: Off topic?
From:	"Marcus Iulius Perusianus" <m_iulius@virgilio.it>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 13:28:05 -0000

Ave M Flavi,

> Wouldn't an adequate addressing of this question require a tighter
> understanding of the phrase "advance the cause of the human race"?

that's exactly what I meant. At first sight, just saying "... No
nation, not even my beloved Rome, has done more to advance the cause
of the human race as the United States has.." seems such a no sense
to me that I asked for more details.

It seems necessary to express that "the cause of the human race" is
likely what we call "civilization", even if this could be arguable.
And when I think about Civilization I usually refer to a human
society with its highly developed social organizations, or a culture
and a way of life of a society or country at a particular period in
time (from a Cambridge dictionary).
Well, according to these parameters, if I had to choose a
Civilization that advanced more from its starting point, I begin
choosing among many other multi-centuries cultures, not to US
civilitazion (also, does a US civilization exist?).

valete
M IVL PERVSIANVS

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marcus Iulius " <m_iulius@v...>
> To: "Nova Roma" <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 9:09 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Off topic?
>
>
> Ave Tiberi Pauline,
>
> while I'm reading all Off-topic (?) messages, I was attracted by a
sentence
> of yours:
>
> >No nation, not even my beloved Rome, has done more to advance the
>cause
> of the human race as the United States has.
>
> could you explain me this better? I'm sure many citizens (like me)
here
> completely disagree with you... at least if you let this with no
further
> comments.
>
> M IVL PERVSIANVS
> Scriba Curatoris Differum
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Elections: Silanus' scenario
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Decimus=20Iunius=20Silanus?= <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 14:33:06 +0100 (BST)

Salve Aule Apolloni,

> If you would care to illustrate the same
> point using a two-vacancy example, I'd be interested
> to discuss it.

Excellent. Take the original scenario and change to
two vacant magistracies from the original five. To be
honest, as I've said before, the numbers do not really
matter as it does not alter the central principle of
my concern.

Vale

Decimus Iunius Silanus.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Election Laws
From:	Bill Gawne <gawne@cesmail.net>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 09:37:05 -0400

Decimus Iunius Silanus wrote:
>
> Salvete Aule Apolloni et Gnae Equiti,

Salve Deci Iuni,

[snip message]

I think that Cordus has answered your questions, and I
agree with what he said. So unless there was some point
you particularly wanted an answer from me on, I'm going
to let him carry on the conversation for now.

I do thank you for your interest in the questions and your
effort to study the matter. I'd offer to buy you a cup
of wine and just talk about anything and everything if
circumstances permitted, but for now please just accept
my sincere thanks for your involvement.

-- Marinus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Election Laws
From:	Bill Gawne <gawne@cesmail.net>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 10:30:07 -0400

deciusiunius wrote:
>
> Salve G. Equiti,
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
> <gawne@c...> wrote:
> > "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@y...> writes:
>
> > There are many things which are, inherently, unknowable.
> > We ought not to bind ourselves to known imperfect methods
> > out of fear of that unknown. We are, as were our Roman
> > forbearers in antiquity, continuously striving toward
> > the fairest possible way of insuring the proper ballance
> > in these things.
>
> First and foremost we are striving to be "in all manners practical
> and acceptable, as the modern restoration of the ancient Roman
> Republic."
>
> We are not striving for what is necessarily the "fairest" but for
> what is the most Roman--what most closely emulates the ancients. That
> is often contradictory to modern sensibilities--so be it.

I think this is a point on which reasonable people may (and do) disagree.
Questions revolve around what *is* acceptable, for one thing. Though I
do indeed share your passion for a Roman Republic brought forward into
this 28th century a.u.c.

But that said, those of us who have studied the Republic know that it
had serious flaws which allowed the development of the social crises
of the 7th and 8th centuries a.u.c. and which eventually brought about
the principate. We owe it to ourselves to safeguard against that kind
of thing happening now or in the future.

I don't see Nova Roma as a role playing game. If it were, I wouldn't
mind having elections in exactly the same form as they occured in
antiquity. But we're trying to do something serious and permanent
here, in my view. As such, I can't accept the idea of a complete
restoration of the voting practices of antiquity. (Though as a
side note I really do want to look carefully at Scaurus' proposal,
which I've set aside for careful study this evening.)

[...]
> Goods Gods Marine, ([...]is that why you chose the name?)

One of the reasons. I also do like sailing. But given my love of and
dedication to the USMC I was pleased and proud to take the cognomen
and to use it as my "call name" here.

> The most *extreme*
> citizens? Just what is an extreme Nova Roman and why are you so
> afraid of them being elected?

Extremism is a pretty self-evident quality. I think it's fairly easy
to see what is generally considered extreme. I don't want extremists
to be elected because they demoralize a large portion of the population.

> What would they do if elected?

Cause people to be disaffected with Nova Roma. Damage the spirit of
Concordia. Ruin our Res Publica.

> And the Via Media between *what?*

Between extreme positions. I want us on neither the far left that some
of our most left leaning Eurpoean citizens might propose, nor on the
far right that some of our most right leaning American citizens would
propose.

> Would some describe YOU as an extreme citizen?

I would not, but some might. How I see myself is less important, in
terms of election, than how the voters see me. If the electorate sees
me as extreme, then I would hope they would *not* elect me. Because
I wouldn't be representative of their will.

> Would this system make *you* less viable as a potential candidate?

It could. If it did, that'd be good for the Republic and as a Roman
I can live with that.

Don't get me wrong, I do have political aspirations in Nova Roma.
I also intend to ascend the Cursus Honorum as the Romans of antiquity
did, with a year between magistracies. At the end of this year I
will relinquish my office of Curule Aedile and report to the citizens
on the performance of my duties. I intend to run for the Praetorship
in November of next year, and if elected I will again take a year off
at the end of that term of office before I seek the Consulship.

But, of course, all of that is subject to the will of the people.

-- Marinus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Elections: Silanus' scenario - LONG
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:42:27 +0100 (BST)

A. Apollonius Cordus to D. Iunius Silanus and all
citizens and peregrines, greetings.

> Excellent. Take the original scenario and change to
> two vacant magistracies from the original five.

Okay, let's see how that would work. Two vacancies,
two 'factions', five candidates per faction, Fabian
system. Let's imagine 10 centuries, for simplicity,
with 5 voters per century, and call the candidates
R1-5 and B1-5.

This will take a while, so skip ahead if you just want
the result!

So, we have 51% of voters voting 'yes' to all the red
candidates, and 49% voting 'yes' to all the blue
candidates. If we assume a fairly random distribution
of voters across centuries, the centuries might look
like this:

Century g:
R1 R2 R3 R4 R5 B1 B2 B3 B4 B5

Voter 1 Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes - - - - -
Voter 2 - - - - - Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes
Voter 3 - - - - - Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes
Voter 4 Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes - - - - -
Voter 5 Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes - - - - -

TOTAL 3 3 3 3 3 2 2 2 2 2
RESULT (ties decided by lot): R3, R5, R2, R1, R4, B1,
B3, B5, B4, B2

Century h:
R1 R2 R3 R4 R5 B1 B2 B3 B4 B5

Voter 1 - - - - - Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes
Voter 2 Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes - - - - -
Voter 3 Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes - - - - -
Voter 4 - - - - - Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes
Voter 5 - - - - - Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes

TOTAL 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 3
RESULT B5, B2, B3, B4, B1, R1, R2, R5, R3, R4

Century i:
R1 R2 R3 R4 R5 B1 B2 B3 B4 B5

Voter 1 Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes - - - - -
Voter 2 Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes - - - - -
Voter 3 Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes - - - - -
Voter 4 Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes - - - - -
Voter 5 Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes - - - - -

TOTAL 5 5 5 5 5 0 0 0 0 0
RESULT R2, R3, R1, R5, R4

Century j:
R1 R2 R3 R4 R5 B1 B2 B3 B4 B5

Voter 1 Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes - - - - -
Voter 2 - - - - - Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes
Voter 3 - - - - - Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes
Voter 4 Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes - - - - -
Voter 5 Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes - - - - -

TOTAL 3 3 3 3 3 2 2 2 2 2
RESULT R2, R5, R3, R1, R4, B4, B3, B1, B2, B5

Century k:
R1 R2 R3 R4 R5 B1 B2 B3 B4 B5

Voter 1 - - - - - Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes
Voter 2 - - - - - Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes
Voter 3 Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes - - - - -
Voter 4 - - - - - Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes
Voter 5 - - - - - Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes

TOTAL 1 1 1 1 1 4 4 4 4 4
RESULT B2, B4, B1, B5, B3, R2, R4, R5, R1, R3

Century l:
R1 R2 R3 R4 R5 B1 B2 B3 B4 B5

Voter 1 Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes - - - - -
Voter 2 Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes - - - - -
Voter 3 - - - - - Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes
Voter 4 Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes - - - - -
Voter 5 Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes - - - - -

TOTAL 4 4 4 4 4 1 1 1 1 1
RESULT R1, R5, R3, R4, R2, B2, B1, B5, B3, B4

Century m:
R1 R2 R3 R4 R5 B1 B2 B3 B4 B5

Voter 1 Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes - - - - -
Voter 2 Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes - - - - -
Voter 3 Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes - - - - -
Voter 4 Yes Yes yes Yes Yes - - - - -
Voter 5 Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes - - - - -

TOTAL 5 5 5 5 5 0 0 0 0 0
RESULT R2, R4, R5, R1, R3

Century n:
R1 R2 R3 R4 R5 B1 B2 B3 B4 B5

Voter 1 Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes - - - - -
Voter 2 - - - - - Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes
Voter 3 - - - - - Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes
Voter 4 - - - - - Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes
Voter 5 - - - - - Yes Yes Yes yes Yes

TOTAL 1 1 1 1 1 4 4 4 4 4
RESULT B2, B5, B4, B3, B1, R1, R5, R4, R2, R3

Century o:
R1 R2 R3 R4 R5 B1 B2 B3 B4 B5

Voter 1 - - - - - Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes
Voter 2 - - - - - Yes Yes yes Yes Yes
Voter 3 - - - - - Yes Yes yes Yes Yes
Voter 4 - - - - - Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes
Voter 5 - - - - - Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes

TOTAL 0 0 0 0 0 5 5 5 5 5
RESULT B3, B1, B2, B5, B4

Century p:
R1 R2 R3 R4 R5 B1 B2 B3 B4 B5

Voter 1 Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes - - - - -
Voter 2 - - - - - Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes
Voter 3 - - - - - Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes
Voter 4 Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes - - - - -
Voter 5 - - - - - Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes

TOTAL 2 2 2 2 2 3 3 3 3 3
RESULT B2, B5, B1, B4, B3, R3, R1, R2, R4, R5

So in total, the red faction got 26 votes (52%, in
fact) and the blue faction got 24. The votes of the
centuries now look like this:

g h i j k l m n o p

1st R3 B5 R2 R2 B2 R1 R2 B2 B3 B2
2nd R5 B2 R3 R5 B4 R5 R4 B5 B1 B5
3rd R2 B3 R1 R3 B1 R3 R5 B4 B2 B1
4th R1 B4 R5 R1 B5 R4 R1 B3 B5 B4
5th R4 B1 R4 R4 B3 R2 R3 B1 B4 B3
6th B1 R1 B4 R2 B2 R1 R3
7th B3 R2 B3 R4 B1 R5 R1
8th B5 R5 B1 R5 B5 R4 R2
9th B4 R3 B2 R1 B3 R2 R4
10th B2 R4 B5 R3 B4 R3 R5

The results would be calculated as follows:

First Second Third Fourth Fifth (continued
round round round round round below)

R1 1 1 1 1 1
(elim)
R2 3 3 3 3 3

R3 1 1 1 1 1

R4 0 - - - -
(elim)
R5 0 0 0 - -
(elim)
B1 0 0 - - -
(elim)
B2 2 2 2 2 2

B3 1 1 1 1 1

B4 0 0 0 0 -
(elim)
B5 1 1 1 1 1

Void 0 0 0 0 0

Sixth SeventhEighth Ninth Tenth
round round round round round

R1 - - - - -

R2 3 3 3 4 -
(elec)
R3 2 1 1 - -
(elim)
R4 - - - - -

R5 - - - - -

B1 - - - - -

B2 2 3 4 4 4
(elec)
B3 1 1 - - -
(elim)
B4 - - - - -

B5 1 - - - -
(elim)
Void 0 0 0 0 0

So on this particular occasion, one red and one blue
were elected. Seems okay to me.

I think what this example shows more than anything
else is that it would be profoundly stupid for a
faction to field 5 candidates and ask all its
supporters to vote 'yes' to all of them - they just
cancel each other out. The result could have been
exactly the same if each faction had had only one
candidate!

Cordus

=====
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Suggestion About Simplified Explanation Of Election Laws
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 14:44:58 -0000

Salvete omnes,

Once this issue has been resolved after the census I would recommend
that the administration mail to our citizens, just prior to the fall
elections some postings with concise and simplified explanation of
how the election system works. After talking to a number of newer
Nova Romans I can see that they are having problems understanding
what is going on or are totally confused. Perhaps there are other
more established citizens who may not be that clear or at least
pretend to be clear. Sending them off, saying read all the legal
jargon here or there does not help them much. When one enters Nova
Roma there is a big learning curve with much information but there is
little guidance or concise outlines to help these newbies along;
especially if they are just new to Roman history. Fortunately I have
a Roman library and dictionary to explain what Praetors, Quaestors,
Procurators, tribunes, consuls, rogotars etc. are; others do not.

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Off topic?
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 13:46:42 -0000

Salve:
2 notes:
One - this weekend will air Ceasar the mini series which unlike past
movies about his life, will include some of his campaigns. It may be
interesting from an entertainment view.
Two - while I am glad of current technology in eliminating
unnecessary civilian loss and keeping our troops out of harms way, I
surely miss the days of good hand to hand combat or with bladed
weapons where each person actually used their own skills and
prowess. The influence of the God ofWar I guess still holds sway
with me. The universe holds many forces in equilibrium but expresses
them all to one degree or another.
I propose and love peace but realistically you can not have one thing
without its opposite so I go with the flow.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael
Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> > Oh Please!
> > Caesar's campaign in Gaul produced similar results to
> > the World Wars on the native population. The Nations
> > of Troy and Carthage were eliminated in the Trojan and
> > Punic wars. If anything, the accuracy of 21st century
> > weapons systems is decreasing civilian causility
> > rates.
SNIP


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: The "Evil Left" Look Out!
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 14:51:39 -0000

Salve,
As a pacifist and I would like to think an Itellectual one (I would
like to think, lol) I in no way take offense at this quote by the way.
I like to think I have no faults unless you consider immodesty a
fault, then I have one - joking.
Seriously though, I don't believe in violence if it can be avoided
but I do understand there are circumstances in which the only
recourse to accomplish a goal is violence. Does this mean I am not a
textbook pacifist? Maybe so. Is there such a thing a necessary
violence? I believe yes especially when it is in retaliation of
violence. Why must issues always be seen in blak and white? There
are so many shades of grey in between. Some cultures do not
understand anything else and to not retaliate is a sign of weakness
in their eyes. A conundrum to be sure and the debate of morality and
eithics goes on. This is not a subject to be resolved logically.
Like fractals, on the surface somethings may appear similar or
symetrical but on closer observation unique and quite different.
Snowflakes - so similar but no two are identical like fingerprints or
even rettinal scans.
My thoughts on this apear haphazard as I amtrying to include thoughts
that words cant explain so excuse the lack of cohesive relations but
I think you get my drift. There are too many variabls to account for
to make this a cut and dry topic to make difinitive comments.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Sicinius Drusus"
<lsicinius@y...> wrote:
> ROFLMAO,
> A Quote,
> PACIFISM The majority of pacifists either belong to
> obscure religious sects or are simply humanitarians
> who object to the taking of life and prefer not to
> follow their thoughts beyond that point. But there is
> a minority of intellectual pacifists whose real though
> unadmitted motive appears to be hatred of western
> democracy and admiration of totalitarianism. Pacifist
> propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side
> is as bad as the other, but if one looks closely at
> the writings of younger intellectual pacifists, one
> finds that they do not by any means express impartial
> disapproval but are directed almost entirely against
> Britain and the United States. Moreover they do not as
> a rule condemn violence as such, but only violence
> used in defense of western countries.
SNIP


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Suggestion About Simplified Explanation Of Election Laws
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:58:55 +0100 (BST)

A. Apollonius Cordus to Q. Lanius Paulinus and all
citizens & peregrines, greetings.

> After talking to a number of newer Nova Romans I can
> see that they are having problems understanding
> what is going on or are totally confused. Perhaps
> there are other more established citizens who may
> not be that clear or at least pretend to be clear.

For myself, I'm fairly sure I'm clear. But I concede
it is tricky, especially for those who don't have time
to read the whole proposal or who don't have much
English.

For those who don't know how the current system works:

There are various magistrates in NR, and we have
elections for the every year. The elections take place
in several different Assemblies (Comitia).

The current discussion is about the Centuriate
Assembly (Comitia Centuriata), which every year elects
1 Censor, 2 Consuls and 2 Praetors.

All voters are divided into centuries. When you vote,
your vote and the votes of other people in your
century are counted, and these decide how your century
votes.

Then the votes of the different centuries are counted,
and this decides who is elected.

The current discussion is about how the votes of the
centuries should be counted.

If you want to know about the way the current Senior
Consul proposes to count them, please read my message
entitled:
"Senior Consul's Proposal: A SUMMARY"

It is number 11503 in the archives.

Anyone who reads this and is still confused should
feel free to e-mail me privately, and I shall explain
to them clearly how it works.

The Handbook, to be found near the end of the Consul's
original message (number 11343 in the archives), also
provides some examples.

I hope this helps

Cordus

=====
www.collapsibletheatre.co.uk

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Civilization, was: Off topic?
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 11:06:12 -0400

Salve Friends Please read

America As a Civilization: Life and Thought in the United States Today With a Postscript Chapter, the New America, 1957-1987 by Max Lerner

Vale

Tiberius

----- Original Message -----
From: Marcus Iulius Perusianus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 9:28 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Civilization, was: Off topic?

Ave M Flavi,

> Wouldn't an adequate addressing of this question require a tighter
> understanding of the phrase "advance the cause of the human race"?

that's exactly what I meant. At first sight, just saying "... No
nation, not even my beloved Rome, has done more to advance the cause
of the human race as the United States has.." seems such a no sense
to me that I asked for more details.

It seems necessary to express that "the cause of the human race" is
likely what we call "civilization", even if this could be arguable.
And when I think about Civilization I usually refer to a human
society with its highly developed social organizations, or a culture
and a way of life of a society or country at a particular period in
time (from a Cambridge dictionary).
Well, according to these parameters, if I had to choose a
Civilization that advanced more from its starting point, I begin
choosing among many other multi-centuries cultures, not to US
civilitazion (also, does a US civilization exist?).

valete
M IVL PERVSIANVS

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marcus Iulius " <m_iulius@v...>
> To: "Nova Roma" <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 9:09 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Off topic?
>
>
> Ave Tiberi Pauline,
>
> while I'm reading all Off-topic (?) messages, I was attracted by a
sentence
> of yours:
>
> >No nation, not even my beloved Rome, has done more to advance the
>cause
> of the human race as the United States has.
>
> could you explain me this better? I'm sure many citizens (like me)
here
> completely disagree with you... at least if you let this with no
further
> comments.
>
> M IVL PERVSIANVS
> Scriba Curatoris Differum
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Elections: Silanus' scenario - LONG
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Decimus=20Iunius=20Silanus?= <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 16:09:22 +0100 (BST)

Salve Aule Apolloni,

Thanks for this...most enlightening.

> I think what this example shows more than anything
> else is that it would be profoundly stupid for a
> faction to field 5 candidates and ask all its
> supporters to vote 'yes' to all of them - they just
> cancel each other out.

Ok, what about 2 candidates from each faction...?

Only if you have the time of course :-)

Vale

Decimus Iunius Silanus.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Off topic?
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 14:03:25 -0000

Salve Tiberius,
It could be more psychological in nature than anything else. A
simple defense mechanism and unrealized.
FEAR and or ENVY
The US military might is surely a thing to be feared (though some
terrorist societies still have to learn that lesson).
If I lived elswhere I would certainly fear the US and what could
happen if those powers were to be unleashed without strict ethics.
There may also be a modicum of envy involved. A poor annalogy would
be the guy or girl in the gym with the great body. Those who wish
they had it more often than not, knock them and make up stories about
them in their jealousy. I view it as an ideal to emulate instead
when something or someone is better than me.
In the least, we should all be greatful to have the US as a friend
and ally. If I can't have that dynamit body, I still will try and I
want that person as my friend.
P.S.
You know the bashing always stops when a fovour is needed, lol.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
wrote:
> Salve
>
> I try and do my best to remain civil on this site as I treasure the
individuals that I have had the honor and pleasure to meet on the web
and in person. But I must ask why does nearly every stream that talks
about modern history or politics ALWAYS ends up with a BASH THE
AMERICANS TIRADE.
>
SNIP


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Off topic?
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:05:28 -0000

Makes one wonder if the computer games were not intended to create a
specific mind set. Not to mention the Nutrasweat contravery of
raising anger and violence levels. Couple that to the music and TV
shows high violence tendencies to create a new breed of techno
warrior. Am I being paranoid? Just because you are paranoid doesn't
mean they aren't out to get you , lol.
I don't condone it but what a feat of ingenuity for creating an
army. When you need a job done that is as distastfull as killing, do
you really want someone with a bleeding heart?
The strategy of removing the person from viewing the results of their
actions is ingenius in ita simplicity.
Unlike in love, in war it is best not to have emotions and to have
people carry out objectives without question. The ideal soldier.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Heathen Renewal
<heathenrenewal@y...> wrote:
>
> > We have improved perhaps in our attitude to slaves,
> > though today of course everybody is a kind of slave.
> > War becomes more bloody as it becomes more distanced
> > of course. What is often so striking is that men are
> > far less often cowards for fear of death than for
> > horror of *killing*. Ancient war meant some poor
> > bugger on the end of your spear where you could feel
> > him wriggling. Modern is increasingly a video game.
>
>
> Very well said...! Computer nerds who remotely man
> missiles ,(like kids playing with remote control
> tanks), enabling them to kill from a distance, so
> that they can kill indiscriminately without getting
> "too close" to their victims, as aptly elaborated by
> Miguel De Cervantes in "Don Quixote":
>
> "Happy the blest ages that knew not the dread fury of
> those devilish engines....[which] made it easy for a
> base and cowardly arm to take the life of a gallant
> gentleman."
>
>
>
>
> =====
> "Loud were they, lo, loud when they rode over the burial mound, I
stood under the linden wood, under a light shield where the mighty
women put forth their powers and sent their yelling spears."
>
>
> http://www.galacticapublishing.com
>
> __________________________________
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> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: The "Evil Left" Look Out!
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:12:34 -0000

Salve Rory,
I have defense for the US in reply to your statement.
Is that hones enough?
Lyle and Eric Menedez were supposedly raised by loving parents giving
them everything an upper class station could provide.
They turned on their parents and killed them.
Should they have gone unpunished?
I believe people have the right to bear arms but I don't believe they
should use them for anything but self defense and I don't blame the
person who sold the gun for the actions of the person that pulled the
trigger.
Like you said, it is a sad fact. It happened, it's over. We need to
move ahead, learn from the past and not dwell on it. You are
justified in your comment, now what can be done looking ahead?

SNIP
> PS: Still waiting to hear a *legitimate* and honest
> response to me pointing out the sad fact that all the
> "evil doers" aforementioned were funded, armed and
> even, trained by the U.S. government. (The Taliban,
> Saddam Hussein, etc etc etc..Even Iran, as the "Iran
> contragate" trials showed, and here I will not even
> get into good old Henry Kissinger)
>
> =====
> "Loud were they, lo, loud when they rode over the burial mound, I
stood under the linden wood, under a light shield where the mighty
women put forth their powers and sent their yelling spears."
>
>
> http://www.galacticapublishing.com
>
> __________________________________
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> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: A Evening with Romans ? A n outline
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:17:13 -0000

Well then, though we have never met, a friendly toast to you (with
Vodka of course).
I remember a funny scene from a movie taosting.
American to Russian:
"Long live Stalin!"
Russian:
Obviously insulted goes to grab the glass from the Americans hand.
American:
Trying to cover his blunder says, "I meant Stalin lived too long".
Spaciba Tobarish and forgive my killing of the language.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Caius Minucius Scaevola <ben@c...>
wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 20, 2003 at 03:40:42PM -0000, Marcus Ambrosius
Belisarius wrote:
> > Salve,
> > Caius
> > Or should I say Nasdrovia Tobarish.
>
> <grin> Not unless we're drinking together. "Na zdorovye!" is a
> toast - "To health!" - which often gets an addendum of "...which
we're
> destroying by drinking to it!"
>
> > Couldn't help but laugh at the thought of a Sven (thought of St.
Olaf
> > stories running through my head) singing the Russian National
> > Anthem.
>
> Whoops. That would be the _Soviet_ anthem; as far as I'm aware,
there
> was no such thing as the Russian National anthem at that time,
although
> I'm sure there is now.
>
> > Great movie by the way even with Sean "the man" Connery
> > playing a Russian with his accent - he is always credible.
>
> True. He certainly took the trouble to _try_ making his Russian
sound
> reasonably decent (not that he succeeded, but still.) Sven just
tried to
> memorize the transliteration and faked it (this was the funniest
part)
> when he forgot.
>
> > Couldn't say which person was the FC myself and I'm sure that was
a
> > friendly poke for fun about being unbelievable but the COOK as
the
> > KGB agent was unbelievable, lol.
>
> I took it for what it was, although "friendly pokes" to someone with
> whom you've never been friendly imply lots of assumptions. Yeah, the
> cook looked nothing like a Russian - although he did look properly
> sneaky and spy-like. :)
>
>
>
> Vale,
> Caius Minucius Scaevola
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
=-
> Inventas vitam iuvat excoluisse per artes.
> Let us improve life through science and art.
> -- Inscription on the Nobel Prize winner medals. After
Vergil, "Aenis."


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Witty Wilde
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:23:27 -0000

Hi Tiberi et omnes,

I'm enjoying these postings over the last week. At least this list is
moving along at a better clip.

Actually, I am a supporter of the US and the world should be far more
grateful for her influence and contributions. Yes she's an economic
empire and great military power but I'll take her influence any day
over a Caliphate, Chinese or Russian government.

However I can't resist this funny comment about America (which
probably included Canada as well) by Oscar Wilde after visiting the
wild west 120 years ago: " America is the only country in history
that went from barbarism to decadence without going through
civilization!

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Off topic?
From:	"aerdensrw" <aerdensrw@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:28:36 -0000

Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius--Erm...I can't agree. 'Ideal' soldiers
were what they trained in the Third Reich. I want soldiers who will
follow orders but who also have the moral strength to exercise
judgment.

Nice to meet you, by the way! I've been reading your posts with
interest.

Renata Corva

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius"
<mballetta@h...> wrote:

(snipped)

> When you need a job done that is as distastfull as killing, do
> you really want someone with a bleeding heart?
> The strategy of removing the person from viewing the results of
their
> actions is ingenius in ita simplicity.
> Unlike in love, in war it is best not to have emotions and to have
> people carry out objectives without question. The ideal soldier.


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Humor, Pagans, Das Reich
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:26:55 -0000

Salve Gnaeus,
Sure, I know exactly what you mean.
Check out two good books by Lawrence Gardener - Realm of the RIng
Lords and Bloodline of the Holy Grail.
There are also some very interesting web sites you can search with
Biligraphy footnotes.
If you access to any Theology professors at a University, you may
wish to engage them in some very interesting conversations on the
subject as well.
It's really facinating talk.
Vale
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
<gawne@c...> wrote:
> Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius <mballetta@h...> writes:
>
> > Regarding Jesus being single and living at home - it would be
funny
> > too but it is not well publicized that he was married and did have
> > children. His bloodline exists till today in Europe and they are
> > among the most influential and wealthy families.
>
> I'd appreciate some sort of citation for this claim. I know that
> it has been made in places like the TV show "In Search Of..."
> and in the pages of tabloids like the _Weekly World News_ but
> I remain quite skeptical.
>
> It's very, *very* difficult to determine whether the historic
> personage of Jeshua bar Joseph ever existed at all. The whole
> story may well be an amazingly elaborate fiction put together
> by clever messianics, though Occham's Razor suggests that the
> story probably does have a kernel of truth to it. But claims
> of marriage, children, etc... are purely speculative.
>
> -- Marinus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Suggestion About Simplified Explanation Of Election Laws
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:31:46 -0000

Salve Corde!

Thanks a million. I'll copy this and mail it off to those citizens I
mentioned!

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "A. Apollonius Cordus"
<cordus@s...> wrote:
> A. Apollonius Cordus to Q. Lanius Paulinus and all
> citizens & peregrines, greetings.
>
> > After talking to a number of newer Nova Romans I can
> > see that they are having problems understanding
> > what is going on or are totally confused. Perhaps
> > there are other more established citizens who may
> > not be that clear or at least pretend to be clear.
>
> For myself, I'm fairly sure I'm clear. But I concede
> it is tricky, especially for those who don't have time
> to read the whole proposal or who don't have much
> English.
>
> For those who don't know how the current system works:
>
> There are various magistrates in NR, and we have
> elections for the every year. The elections take place
> in several different Assemblies (Comitia).
>
> The current discussion is about the Centuriate
> Assembly (Comitia Centuriata), which every year elects
> 1 Censor, 2 Consuls and 2 Praetors.
>
> All voters are divided into centuries. When you vote,
> your vote and the votes of other people in your
> century are counted, and these decide how your century
> votes.
>
> Then the votes of the different centuries are counted,
> and this decides who is elected.
>
> The current discussion is about how the votes of the
> centuries should be counted.
>
> If you want to know about the way the current Senior
> Consul proposes to count them, please read my message
> entitled:
> "Senior Consul's Proposal: A SUMMARY"
>
> It is number 11503 in the archives.
>
> Anyone who reads this and is still confused should
> feel free to e-mail me privately, and I shall explain
> to them clearly how it works.
>
> The Handbook, to be found near the end of the Consul's
> original message (number 11343 in the archives), also
> provides some examples.
>
> I hope this helps
>
> Cordus
>
> =====
> www.collapsibletheatre.co.uk
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
__
> Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE
Yahoo!
> Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Off topic?
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 11:37:07 -0400

Salve Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius

Your right, but Canada is right next door and I see no push to conqueror her ( or her oil )and we took what we wanted from Mexico over 150 years ago. It's a lot safer being a neighbor of the US than say Prussia, Russia or China.

Vale

Tiberius

----- Original Message -----
From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 10:03 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Off topic?

Salve Tiberius,
It could be more psychological in nature than anything else. A
simple defense mechanism and unrealized.
FEAR and or ENVY
The US military might is surely a thing to be feared (though some
terrorist societies still have to learn that lesson).
If I lived elswhere I would certainly fear the US and what could
happen if those powers were to be unleashed without strict ethics.
There may also be a modicum of envy involved. A poor annalogy would
be the guy or girl in the gym with the great body. Those who wish
they had it more often than not, knock them and make up stories about
them in their jealousy. I view it as an ideal to emulate instead
when something or someone is better than me.
In the least, we should all be greatful to have the US as a friend
and ally. If I can't have that dynamit body, I still will try and I
want that person as my friend.
P.S.
You know the bashing always stops when a fovour is needed, lol.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
wrote:
> Salve
>
> I try and do my best to remain civil on this site as I treasure the
individuals that I have had the honor and pleasure to meet on the web
and in person. But I must ask why does nearly every stream that talks
about modern history or politics ALWAYS ends up with a BASH THE
AMERICANS TIRADE.
>
SNIP

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Humor, Pagans, Das Reich
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:37:01 -0000

True that much is conjecture.
It is a shame that the church resticted so much knowledge and
documentation to put forward only what they wanted us to know and
believe. It is more of what was hidden that leads me to believe the
speculation. Likewise there isn't any proof to say it isn't true.
Again, that debate can go back and forth forever.
I like to keep an open mind and hurt and jaded as I am by an
organization that lied to me from birth am less likely to take
verbatim the the clap doled out at face value.
Very close, the author and title was - Lawrence Gardener's book the
bloodline of the Holy grail.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "kerunos" <graymouser01@a...> wrote:
> Salve
>
> I believe the theory was put forward in a book called 'The Holy
Blood
> & the Holy Grail' which I think was published in the 80's (I forget
> the name of the authors). It is indeed an 'interesting and thought
> provoking' book, but while the authors are very plausible in the
> presentation of their arguments, their theories remain just that -
> theories, built on a series of conjectures without any definative
> proof. An interesting read though.
>
> Lucius Lucillus Catiline
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
> <gawne@c...> wrote:
> > Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius <mballetta@h...> writes:
> >
> > > Regarding Jesus being single and living at home - it would be
> funny
> > > too but it is not well publicized that he was married and did
have
> > > children. His bloodline exists till today in Europe and they
are
> > > among the most influential and wealthy families.
> >
SNIP


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Humor, Pagans, Das Reich
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:45:28 -0000

Salve,
And caution is the path to mediocraty.
Reality is your own order imosed on everything.
Truth is an empty cup.
I can go on and on. Prety words do not make something any more or
less true.
Truth suffers from too much analysis and like Tolpa I like to have
a mind that is open to everything and attached to nothing. This way
I am neither totally gullable like the steryotypical UFO groupie nor
too narrow minded like the extremist soap box preaching priest.
I do have my own beliefs and theories but like to keep a balance in
the possibilities of things.
Vale and thank you for contributing to an interesting discussion.

SNIP>
> There's an old saying to the effect that "conspiracism is the
> sophistication of the ignorant." I think a good dose of careful
> skepticism is in order when considering the claims put forth.
>
> -- Marinus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Humor, Pagans, Das Reich
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:47:33 -0000

Thanks for the reccomendations Titus.
I listed another book I thought was meant.
I'll have to check out your selections, sounds interesting.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Kristoffer From <from@d...> wrote:
> kerunos wrote:
> > I believe the theory was put forward in
> > a book called 'The Holy Blood & the Holy
> > Grail' which I think was published in
> > the 80's (I forget the name of the authors).
>
> Salve, Luci Lucille Catiline.
>
> I do believe you're referring to "Holy Blood, Holy Grail, written by
> Michael Baigent, Henry Lincoln and Richard Leigh. The book's ISBN
number
> is 0440136482, for anyone interested. It mainly focuses around the
> similarity of "san greal", or the holy grail, and "sang real", or
true
> blood. That is to say, that the expression "the holy grail" was a
> misinterpretation of a reference to the bloodline of Christ,
instead of
> a cup.
>
> For a discussion on this and many other similar subjects, including
the
> Hollow Earth, I recommend "Supressed Transmission" and the sequel by
> Kenneth Hite, published by Steve Jackson Games.
>
> Vale, Titus Octavius Pius.


Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Re: Humor, Pagans, Das Reich
From:	"Clovis Cathmor" <cloviscathmor@sbcglobal.net>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 10:53:21 -0500

Salve all,

There were two books "Holy Blood & Holy Grail" and "The Messianic Legacy"
Written by Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh and Henry Lincoln. Both written
in the Mid 1980's the explore the issue. The bloodline of the Holy grail By
Gardener is another book the presents this theory.

Recently it is a theory that also that has resurfaced in historical circles
as well and there was presentation on it even on the History channel only a
few weeks ago discussing this same possibility. I know that it is a
subject that has been discussed in my Medieval History classes and
explorations of the Church and its development from the early 6th century
forward as well.

Clovius

---------------------
Pukulpa Tjunguringkunytja - by Diana James

We walk together on sacred ground.
Black feet, white feet, treading softly on the land. Mother
Kuniya moves beneath our feet, the Tjukurpa/Creation Law breathes life into
the sacred landscape of Uluru. White guides and Anangu guides, working
together. We stand firm in the laws of the two cultures, keeping the
cultural and natural heritage strong. Our feet on sacred ground our hands
reach up to hold the new circle of life; The campfire, the waterhole, where
people of all cultures can meet and share.
-------------------------------
Argent, a natural panther's head sable, in chief three gouttes d'huile.
__________________________________________________________________
Lewis Jones
ICQ#: 1361177
Current ICQ status:
+ More ways to contact me
__________________________________________________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius [mailto:mballetta@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 10:37 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Humor, Pagans, Das Reich

True that much is conjecture.
It is a shame that the church resticted so much knowledge and
documentation to put forward only what they wanted us to know and
believe. It is more of what was hidden that leads me to believe the
speculation. Likewise there isn't any proof to say it isn't true.
Again, that debate can go back and forth forever.
I like to keep an open mind and hurt and jaded as I am by an
organization that lied to me from birth am less likely to take
verbatim the the clap doled out at face value.
Very close, the author and title was - Lawrence Gardener's book the
bloodline of the Holy grail.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "kerunos" <graymouser01@a...> wrote:
> Salve
>
> I believe the theory was put forward in a book called 'The Holy
Blood
> & the Holy Grail' which I think was published in the 80's (I forget
> the name of the authors). It is indeed an 'interesting and thought
> provoking' book, but while the authors are very plausible in the
> presentation of their arguments, their theories remain just that -
> theories, built on a series of conjectures without any definative
> proof. An interesting read though.
>
> Lucius Lucillus Catiline
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
> <gawne@c...> wrote:
> > Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius <mballetta@h...> writes:
> >
> > > Regarding Jesus being single and living at home - it would be
> funny
> > > too but it is not well publicized that he was married and did
have
> > > children. His bloodline exists till today in Europe and they
are
> > > among the most influential and wealthy families.
> >
SNIP


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Elections: Silanus' scenario - LONG
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 17:19:18 +0100 (BST)

A. Apollonius Cordus to D. Iunius Silanus and all
citizens and peregrines, greetings.

> Ok, what about 2 candidates from each faction...?
>
> Only if you have the time of course :-)

Goodness me! I'd really prefer it if people who wanted
to make points about the system could write up their
own examples, rather than me doing them all. Otherwise
I'll have everyone asking me 'what happens in x, y or
z case?'...

I *know* the system works, so writing out examples of
it working isn't going to do me any good. It's people
who *aren't* sure who can benefit from thinking of
different scenarios. :)

Cordus

=====
www.collapsibletheatre.co.uk

________________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Humor, Pagans, Das Reich
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:55:54 -0000

Salve Quintus,
Achems Razor?
Good theory, true but them we would have throw out the whole theory
of Jesus from his conception and most of the bible tales. Much
easier to believe that Joe and Mary did the nasty and no angels
involved, lol.

I hope you find the following amusing - it is meant in that way:
They recently discovered a smaller scroll hidden in the cylinder of
the first scroll of the ancient Biblical scriptures, believed to be
the actual "first page" of the Bible. When deciphered, it read:

"Copyright (c) 300 B.C. God. All Rights Reserved First Scrawling:
First-Sunrise-After-Stonehenge-Keystone-Is-Shadowed, 300 B.C.

All beings, places and events depicted in this work are fictional,
and any resemblance to actual beings, places and events past, present
or future is purely coincidental.

WARNING: Some of the actions performed in this work are dangerous and
should only be attempted by professionals familiar with the action in
question.

NOTE: Those tiny points of light in the sky when it gets dark are
called 'stars'. Some of them do blow up on occasion. In no way should
this be construed as a sign that there is, beneath such an explosion,
any form of saviour. Should such a misconstrual happen, the author
will not be held responsible for the avalanche of arrogance, zeal,
bigotry, humanocentricity and other vile acts which will surely
follow the residents of the planet into time eternal until someone
sees fit to erase the denizens of the world and let the author start
over.

ISBN 0-0000-0000-1
Suggested retail: 1 sheep."

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael
Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> > There's an old saying to the effect that "conspiracism is the
> > sophistication of the ignorant." I think a good dose of careful
> > skepticism is in order when considering the claims put forth.
> >
> > -- Marinus
>
> Salve Marine,
>
> With that I agree. You could also add that often the best
> explainations seem to be the simplist.
> There is a very good book out on the Market called "Why People
> Believe Strange Things" By Michael Shermer. In my opinion it should
> be compulsory reading for anyone finishing school. Covers
everything
> from Flying saucers to paraphyscology.
> The funniest story came from an Afrocentrist professor who gave a
> lecture that all our western philosophy came from sub saharan
Africa
> and that Aristotle stole the information from the Library of
> Alexandria and plagerized it as his own work. Shermer merely
pointed
> out at that public university lecture that it sounded all
fascinating
> but the Library of Alexandria was not built until 200 years after
> Aristotles' death. They were sure upset with him.(Lol)
>
> Regards,
>
> Quintus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Dii Consentes
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 16:11:06 -0000

Excellent,
Thanks for all your effort.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Sicinius Drusus"
<lsicinius@y...> wrote:
> Salvete Quirites,
>
> Last Week I made a Nov Roma Desktop theme for Windows
> avaible for download. I have just made an addition to
> that page, the Dii Consentes Wallpapers.
>
>SNIP


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] (unknown)
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 16:16:43 -0000

Salve and thanks for the reference.
Always remember, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, lol.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, G�IVLIVS�SCAVRVS <gfr@i...> wrote:
> G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.
>
> Avete, Quirites.
>
> Here's a link to "Dreams of Antiquity: Bibliographische
> Online-Datenbank zu Tr�umen und Visionen in der Antike [
Bibliographic
> Online Database on Dreams and Visions in Antiquity]":
>
> http://www.gnomon.ku-eichstaett.de/dreams/index.html
>
> This site, created by Dr. Gregor Weber (Dept. of Ancient History,
> Catholic University of Eichst�tt), provides a searchable database of
> both primary and secondary sources relating to dreams, visions,
> oracles, and divination in the ancient Mediterranean world.
> First-time users will probably want to review all the thesaurus
> categories to get an overview of the material covered. While the
site
> is in German, the citations cover the usual range of classical and
> modern European languages.
>
> Valete, Quirites.
>
> G. Iulius Scaurus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Off topic?
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 16:24:22 -0000

Salve Tiberi,

You are right. There is no economic sense for going after Iraqi oil.

Some figures shown on Canadian media:

) Iraq's output before her problems in oil revenues 17 billion $ US /
year

2) Production costs - 7 billion $ US per year

3) Net profit for both the "greedy US and Britain" if they swipe
100% - 10 billion diveded by 2 = 5 billion each.

4) Cost to America and Britain to manage and rebuild Iraq - 500
billion - In other words, no returns for 50 years and there may well
be new energy sources by then. Dosen't add up.

The US thought of annexing Canada but didn't want her. See story in
my previous posting "America" from yesterday if you have not done so.

Regards, Quintus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
wrote:
> Salve Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius
>
> Your right, but Canada is right next door and I see no push to
conqueror her ( or her oil )and we took what we wanted from Mexico
over 150 years ago. It's a lot safer being a neighbor of the US than
say Prussia, Russia or China.
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 10:03 AM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Off topic?
>
>
> Salve Tiberius,
> It could be more psychological in nature than anything else. A
> simple defense mechanism and unrealized.
> FEAR and or ENVY
> The US military might is surely a thing to be feared (though some
> terrorist societies still have to learn that lesson).
> If I lived elswhere I would certainly fear the US and what could
> happen if those powers were to be unleashed without strict ethics.
> There may also be a modicum of envy involved. A poor annalogy
would
> be the guy or girl in the gym with the great body. Those who
wish
> they had it more often than not, knock them and make up stories
about
> them in their jealousy. I view it as an ideal to emulate instead
> when something or someone is better than me.
> In the least, we should all be greatful to have the US as a
friend
> and ally. If I can't have that dynamit body, I still will try
and I
> want that person as my friend.
> P.S.
> You know the bashing always stops when a fovour is needed, lol.
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher"
<spqr753@m...>
> wrote:
> > Salve
> >
> > I try and do my best to remain civil on this site as I treasure
the
> individuals that I have had the honor and pleasure to meet on the
web
> and in person. But I must ask why does nearly every stream that
talks
> about modern history or politics ALWAYS ends up with a BASH THE
> AMERICANS TIRADE.
> >
> SNIP
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Off topic?
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 16:27:27 -0000

Salve,
Without getting into semantics and splitting hairs, I understood the
comment.
The US has funded innumerable projects for the betterment of health,
science, industry etc.
They have bailed out Nations going bankrupt and have helped put down
oppression and free people from the dictator-like yoke.
I don't mean to speak for another but I think that's waht was meant
by the comment.
Vale

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, M Flavius Aurelius
<marcus.flavius@b...> wrote:
> Wouldn't an adequate addressing of this question require a tighter
> understanding of the phrase "advance the cause of the human race"?
>
> M Flavius Aurelius
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marcus Iulius " <m_iulius@v...>
> To: "Nova Roma" <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 9:09 PM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Off topic?
>
>
> Ave Tiberi Pauline,
>
> while I'm reading all Off-topic (?) messages, I was attracted by a
sentence
> of yours:
>
> >No nation, not even my beloved Rome, has done more to advance the
>cause
> of the human race as the United States has.
>
> could you explain me this better? I'm sure many citizens (like me)
here
> completely disagree with you... at least if you let this with no
further
> comments.
>
> M IVL PERVSIANVS
> Scriba Curatoris Differum
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Ludi Veneta - Results
From:	"Jonas Nilsson" <xkrull@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 19:04:16 +0200

LUDI VENETA (The internal race of Factio Veneta)

---------------------Final-------------------------
Titus Licinius Crassus
Chariot: Orionis Draco
Driver: Equus Magnus
-------------------------------------
Gaius Lanius Falco
Chariot name - Veritas
Driver - Maximus Vincentius
-------------------------------------
Gallus Minucius Iovinus
Chariot: Ossifragus
Driver: Pontius Falx
-------------------------------------
L. Pompeius Octavianus
Chariot: Crux Australis
Driver: Victor Hispanicus
-------------------------------------
Gaius Cornelius Ahenobarbus
Chariot: Phaeton
Driver: Iaculator
-------------------------------------

Salvete Omnes!

..and welcome to LUDI VENETA, the internal Ludi for the supporters of Factio
Veneta where the Champion in blue will be crowned! Several weeks have past
since we witnessed the last races and the long wait for further action has
brought, not only the blue supporters to the Circus, but also supporters
from the Red, Green and White teams. The Circus is in perfect condition and
the weather is certainly in favour for the upcoming race. The sun shine's
brightly in the deep blue sky and the the thousands of blue banners among
the spectators creates the illusion of the sky continuing all the way down
to the Circus floor.
Now, let's see what is happening down at the starting line...
At the innermost lane stands the chariot Orionis Draco, owned by Titus
Licinius Crassus and driven by the skilled Equus Magnus. Next to him stands
the chariot Veritas, owned by Illustrus Gaius Lanius Falco and driven by
Maximus Vincentius, who waves cheeerfully to the crowd. Next to him we find
the chariot Ossifragus, owned by Gallus Minucius Iovinus and driven by the
bushy bearded Pontius Falx. Next to him stand the chariot Crux Australis,
owned by Illustrus Lucius Pompeius Octavianus, the "boss" over Factio
Veneta. His driver is the qualified Victor Hispanicus. Next to him on the
outermost lane we find the chariot Phaeton, driven
by Iaculator and owned by Illustrus Gaius Cornelius Ahenobarbus.

As the participators are taking their places along the starting-line the
crowds cheers are subdued as they await the start with great anticipation.
When the chariots finally take off the Circus completely exploads in a
roaring symphony of voices. Both Orionis Draco and Veritas gets a good start
and recives a small advantage over the others as the chariots enters the
first curve. Phaeton seriously challanges them both as he races the curve
really close, but he doesn't seems to pass either one of them. In the back
of the race we can witness a close struggle between Ossifragus and Crux
Australis. As the chariots comes out of the curve and in to the straight
line Orionis Draco, Veritas and Phaeton are lined up side by side. A few
feets behind the leading trio Ossifragus seems to have recived a small
advantage over Crux Australis, who struggles desperately to keep up with
Ossifragus.
As the race continues Phaeton looses a few feets to both Orionis Draco and
Veritas, but neither of them seems to get the upper hand over eachother as
they struggle side by side in to the next curve. Behind the leading duo and
Phaeton we find Ossifragus with a growing lead over the last chariot Crux
Australis.

The gravel spatters under the hoofs of the strained horses as the drivers
are pushing their chariots to the limit. The spectators are totally ecstatic
and their loud cheers are almost deafening. - Wow!!! - This is surely a
close race and the crowd seems to love it!
Orionis Draco and Veritas are still ingaged in a close struggle for the lead
and Phaeton is really trying to keep up with them. But hey! ...something
happens in the leading duo... In their close struggle Orionis Draco and
Veritas bumps in to eachother and the chariot's wheels get stuck, making the
whole process really short. Bits of wood and steel flies through the air in
a massive cloud of dust as the two chariots loose control and finally ends
their race near the outer wall of the Circus. The crowd don't know what to
say... had it been a chariot of another Factio there would have been
deafening sheers, but when the race only include chariots of their own
Factio they does'nt seem to know how to act. Fortunately the drivers of
Orionis Draco and Veritas seems to be alright, as they already are limping
away from the demolished chariots.

What a change in the outcome of this race! Now Phaeton has a relatively safe
lead over Ossifragus and far behind him, Crux Australis still struggle to
keep up with the others. This seems to be a really safe journey for Phaeton
and I don't think anything can stop him from becoming the Veneta Champion
now... Phaeton comes up for the finish line and... yes, no one could
challange him! It's Phaeton who wins the Ludi Veneta! Phaeton, the new
Champion of Factio Veneta! Ossifragus comes in on a second place and Crux
Australis finishes on a third place. The crowd sheers loudly and blue
confetti fills the air over the Cicus and the competing chariots. Well... I
thank You all for following this exciting race and wish You all the best
until next time...
---------------------------------------

Results:
1st: Phaeton
2nd: Ossifragus
3rd: Crux Australis
4th: Orionis Draco (accident)
5th: Veritas (accident)

The Veneta champion is Phaeton, driven by Iaculator, owner GAIUS CORNELIUS
AHENOBARBUS!!!
--------------------------------------

Valete,

Gallus Minucius Iovinus
Prolegatus Regionis Suecicae
Scriba Aedilis Curulis
Scriba Curatoris Differum et Artificium
************************************************
He who is in the company of good thoughts is never alone.
************************************************
You don't choose your ideal. It's the ideal who chooses You.
************************************************
Happiness is not a station of arrival, but a way of traveling.

_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: The "Evil Left" Look Out!
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 16:35:09 -0000

Sorry, that was supposed to read I have NO defense.
My keyboard has its own mind at times and I type too fast, many
letters ket dropped.
Appologies.
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius"
<mballetta@h...> wrote:
> Salve Rory,
> I have defense for the US in reply to your statement.
> Is that hones enough?
> Lyle and Eric Menedez were supposedly raised by loving parents
giving
> them everything an upper class station could provide.
> They turned on their parents and killed them.
> Should they have gone unpunished?
> I believe people have the right to bear arms but I don't believe
they
> should use them for anything but self defense and I don't blame the
> person who sold the gun for the actions of the person that pulled
the
> trigger.
> Like you said, it is a sad fact. It happened, it's over. We need
to
> move ahead, learn from the past and not dwell on it. You are
> justified in your comment, now what can be done looking ahead?
>
>
> SNIP
> > PS: Still waiting to hear a *legitimate* and honest
> > response to me pointing out the sad fact that all the
> > "evil doers" aforementioned were funded, armed and
> > even, trained by the U.S. government. (The Taliban,
> > Saddam Hussein, etc etc etc..Even Iran, as the "Iran
> > contragate" trials showed, and here I will not even
> > get into good old Henry Kissinger)
> >
> > =====
> > "Loud were they, lo, loud when they rode over the burial mound, I
> stood under the linden wood, under a light shield where the mighty
> women put forth their powers and sent their yelling spears."
> >
> >
> > http://www.galacticapublishing.com
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> > http://sbc.yahoo.com


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Off topic?
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 16:46:59 -0000

Salve Renata,
Thank you,
I would be horribly bored to tears if everyone thought and believed
as do I. I enjoy people who speak their mind and don't necessarily
agree with me.
We all have something to teach and to learn from eachother and only
the strict, narrow minded arrogant can't understand that and are
doomed never to evolve, lmao.
I have noticed that some citizens that have different views appear to
take it personally and even get bitterly aggresive.
When put forth as you did, coherently, unemotionally and not
personally, I can only repect your oppinion in the light it was
offered. Thank you.
Now, as to that oppinion,
You make a good point. If I were the general would I want blind
obedience or someone who could conform and adapt to situations
unexpected.
I'd have to give this more thought but there are pro's and con's to
both sides.
I appreciate your interest and would be happy to go into detail on
anything (publicly or privately). They are just my views to share
and discuss and I'm not trying to gather converts, lol. Feel free to
disagree with me anytime, you do it in such a way as to be a
pleasure, lol.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "aerdensrw" <aerdensrw@y...> wrote:
> Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius--Erm...I can't agree. 'Ideal' soldiers
> were what they trained in the Third Reich. I want soldiers who
will
> follow orders but who also have the moral strength to exercise
> judgment.
>
> Nice to meet you, by the way! I've been reading your posts with
> interest.
>
> Renata Corva
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius"
> <mballetta@h...> wrote:
>
> (snipped)
>
> > When you need a job done that is as distastfull as killing, do
> > you really want someone with a bleeding heart?
> > The strategy of removing the person from viewing the results of
> their
> > actions is ingenius in ita simplicity.
> > Unlike in love, in war it is best not to have emotions and to
have
> > people carry out objectives without question. The ideal soldier.


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Off topic?
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 16:58:15 -0000

And I know a few Canadians with no fear of the US as well but a happy
to be so close. I know a few does not tell all for the COuntry.
Maybe it's just the "French" Canadians who fear the US, LOL.
Sorry, no real offense to the Canadians and any French that I have
offended, well, this too shall pass, sorry.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
wrote:
> Salve Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius
>
> Your right, but Canada is right next door and I see no push to
conqueror her ( or her oil )and we took what we wanted from Mexico
over 150 years ago. It's a lot safer being a neighbor of the US than
say Prussia, Russia or China.
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius
> To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 10:03 AM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Off topic?
>
>
> Salve Tiberius,
> It could be more psychological in nature than anything else. A
> simple defense mechanism and unrealized.
> FEAR and or ENVY
> The US military might is surely a thing to be feared (though some
> terrorist societies still have to learn that lesson).
> If I lived elswhere I would certainly fear the US and what could
> happen if those powers were to be unleashed without strict ethics.
> There may also be a modicum of envy involved. A poor annalogy
would
> be the guy or girl in the gym with the great body. Those who
wish
> they had it more often than not, knock them and make up stories
about
> them in their jealousy. I view it as an ideal to emulate instead
> when something or someone is better than me.
> In the least, we should all be greatful to have the US as a
friend
> and ally. If I can't have that dynamit body, I still will try
and I
> want that person as my friend.
> P.S.
> You know the bashing always stops when a fovour is needed, lol.
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher"
<spqr753@m...>
> wrote:
> > Salve
> >
> > I try and do my best to remain civil on this site as I treasure
the
> individuals that I have had the honor and pleasure to meet on the
web
> and in person. But I must ask why does nearly every stream that
talks
> about modern history or politics ALWAYS ends up with a BASH THE
> AMERICANS TIRADE.
> >
> SNIP
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Humor, Pagans, Das Reich
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 17:03:33 -0000

Thanks for the info.
I know if I was a direct decendant of Jesus, I would want it kept
very secret too. I'm sure this is one of the best kept secrets of
all time. Can you imagine the lack of privacy anyone would have?
Wose than being, famouse, rich or a celebrity.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Clovis Cathmor"
<cloviscathmor@s...> wrote:
> Salve all,
>
> There were two books "Holy Blood & Holy Grail" and "The Messianic
Legacy"
> Written by Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh and Henry Lincoln. Both
written
> in the Mid 1980's the explore the issue. The bloodline of the Holy
grail By
> Gardener is another book the presents this theory.
>
> Recently it is a theory that also that has resurfaced in historical
circles
> as well and there was presentation on it even on the History
channel only a
> few weeks ago discussing this same possibility. I know that it is
a
> subject that has been discussed in my Medieval History classes and
> explorations of the Church and its development from the early 6th
century
> forward as well.
>
> Clovius
>
>
> SNIP


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Off topic?
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 17:06:44 -0000

Thanks for doing the Math Quintus.
Those bottom line figures usually do it for the accounting type bean
counters.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael
Kelly)" <mjk@d...> wrote:
> Salve Tiberi,
>
> You are right. There is no economic sense for going after Iraqi
oil.
>
> Some figures shown on Canadian media:
>
> ) Iraq's output before her problems in oil revenues 17 billion $
US /
> year
>
> 2) Production costs - 7 billion $ US per year
>
> 3) Net profit for both the "greedy US and Britain" if they swipe
> 100% - 10 billion diveded by 2 = 5 billion each.
>
> 4) Cost to America and Britain to manage and rebuild Iraq - 500
> billion - In other words, no returns for 50 years and there may
well
> be new energy sources by then. Dosen't add up.
>
>
>
> The US thought of annexing Canada but didn't want her. See story in
> my previous posting "America" from yesterday if you have not done
so.
>
> Regards, Quintus
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher"
<spqr753@m...>
> wrote:
> > Salve Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius
> >
> > Your right, but Canada is right next door and I see no push to
> conqueror her ( or her oil )and we took what we wanted from Mexico
> over 150 years ago. It's a lot safer being a neighbor of the US
than
> say Prussia, Russia or China.
> >
> > Vale
> >
> > Tiberius
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius
> > To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 10:03 AM
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Off topic?
> >
> >
> > Salve Tiberius,
> > It could be more psychological in nature than anything else. A
> > simple defense mechanism and unrealized.
> > FEAR and or ENVY
> > The US military might is surely a thing to be feared (though
some
> > terrorist societies still have to learn that lesson).
> > If I lived elswhere I would certainly fear the US and what
could
> > happen if those powers were to be unleashed without strict
ethics.
> > There may also be a modicum of envy involved. A poor annalogy
> would
> > be the guy or girl in the gym with the great body. Those who
> wish
> > they had it more often than not, knock them and make up stories
> about
> > them in their jealousy. I view it as an ideal to emulate
instead
> > when something or someone is better than me.
> > In the least, we should all be greatful to have the US as a
> friend
> > and ally. If I can't have that dynamit body, I still will try
> and I
> > want that person as my friend.
> > P.S.
> > You know the bashing always stops when a fovour is needed, lol.
> >
> > --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher"
> <spqr753@m...>
> > wrote:
> > > Salve
> > >
> > > I try and do my best to remain civil on this site as I
treasure
> the
> > individuals that I have had the honor and pleasure to meet on
the
> web
> > and in person. But I must ask why does nearly every stream that
> talks
> > about modern history or politics ALWAYS ends up with a BASH THE
> > AMERICANS TIRADE.
> > >
> > SNIP
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Ludi Veneta - Results
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 17:09:50 -0000

Hurrah!
I had chosen blue when first I joined Nova Roma without knowing what
I was doing.
Afterwards, I learned that Blue was a goose egg last place choice.
I stayed with the underdog and am happy to see the crowning, lol.
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Jonas Nilsson" <xkrull@h...> wrote:
> LUDI VENETA (The internal race of Factio Veneta)
>
> ---------------------Final-------------------------
> Titus Licinius Crassus
> Chariot: Orionis Draco
> Driver: Equus Magnus
> -------------------------------------
> Gaius Lanius Falco
> Chariot name - Veritas
> Driver - Maximus Vincentius
> -------------------------------------
> Gallus Minucius Iovinus
> Chariot: Ossifragus
> Driver: Pontius Falx
> -------------------------------------
> L. Pompeius Octavianus
> Chariot: Crux Australis
> Driver: Victor Hispanicus
> -------------------------------------
> Gaius Cornelius Ahenobarbus
> Chariot: Phaeton
> Driver: Iaculator
> -------------------------------------
>
> Salvete Omnes!
>
> ..and welcome to LUDI VENETA, the internal Ludi for the supporters
of Factio
> Veneta where the Champion in blue will be crowned! SNIP


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Proposal for a Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum
From:	politicog <politicog@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 10:20:10 -0700 (PDT)

--- Gaius Galerius Peregrinator
<gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Salvete:
>
> I don't understand why it has to be so
> complicated. I'd have to take a
> day off just to read it, and figure out how it
> works. Even Florida has a
> simpler system. As to authenticity, the ancient
> system was imperfect
> bacause as any political system it had to accomodate
> local and contemporary
> powerhouses and realities. But we have a republic
> to run with 21st century
> problems and realities, and that requires 21st
> century solutions.
> Everywhere in the 21st century magistrates are
> elected by majority vote.
> Furthermore, we got 219 citizens (taxpayers), and
> these are the voters.
> Somebody already alluded that we are small and need
> a simple system. Why
> not a majority vote system and the 2 top candidates
> for runoffs.
>
>

I concur with the statements that others have made
that the current system has too many run-offs, and
therefore a better system must be instituted. However,
I must disagree with your statement that "everywhere
in the 21st century, magistrates are elected by
majority vote." In fact, in most Western nations it
is at best who have a greater plurality. In the 2000
U.S. election, George W. Bush received a majority from
the electoral college, however that was not reflective
of the popular vote.
The total popular votes in the 2000 U.S.
presidential election were: 105,363,298, of which Gore
received 50,996,582 (48.4%), Bush 50,456,062 (47.9%),
Nader 2,858,843 (2.7%),Buchanan 438,760 (0.4%), all
other candidates 613,051 (0.6%). In the electoral
college, however, there was a total of 537 votes, of
which Bush received 271 (50.5%), Gore 266 (49.5%), all
other candidates 0 (0%). This is because in most
states, all electoral college votes go to the
candidate that gets the most number of votes
(plurality), regardless of how close the election was
or how many candidates were on the ballot.
Even in local elections, getting majority support
is the exception rather than the rule. For instance,
in my own city, our city charter provides that if one
candidate recives a majority in the city primary, that
candidate automatically wins the election. At first
glance, this would seem to be a majoritarian system,
right? No such luck. The turn-out in the city
primary tends to be a mauch smaller number than comes
in the general city election. So that it is possible
for a candidate to receive a majority in the primary
from a much smaller number of people than those that
show up in the general election.

=====
ROGER MCCLARY
"It is a good thing that war is so terrible, otherwise we would grow too fond of it." -- Robert E. Lee

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Academia Announce: Temple of Minerva
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 20:17:10 +0200 (CEST)

Cn. Salix Astur Quiritibus S.P.D.

It is for me a pleasure to announce that a Temple dedicated to the
exalted Minerva has been opened inside the Academia Thules by the
Priestess of Minerva in Nova Roma, Senatrix Patricia Cassia. You can
visit the Temple by clicking on the following link:
http://www.insulaumbra.com/academiathules/minerva/index.html

Given the Academia's goals and fields of interests, it has always been
clear that it should be, as an institution, be put under the protection
of the Armed Goddess, as She has always protected those linked with
crafts, arts and thinking. Let's hope that She will accept this
dedication and that She will bless the Academia and Nova Roma.

Many thanks to Senatrix Patricia Cassia, who has proved to be a
blessing from the Goddess all by herself :-).

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!

CN�SALIX�ASTVR�T�F�A�NEP�TRIB�OVF
PRAETOR�ET�SENATOR
TRIVMVIR�ACADEMIAE
LICTOR�CVRIATVS

___________________________________________________
Yahoo! Sorteos - http://loteria.yahoo.es
Juega a la Loter�a Primitiva sin salir de casa


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Academia Announce: Temple of Minerva
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 18:27:23 -0000

All hail the Diety that governs the thinking.
Vita sin literas mors est!
Vah! Denuone Latine loquebar? Me ineptum. Interdum modo elabitur.
Oh! Was I speaking Latin again? Silly me. Sometimes it just sort of
slips out, lol, don't I wish.
That is: life without knowledge is death or something very similar.
Congratulations on your new temple.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Salix Astur
<salixastur@y...> wrote:
> Cn. Salix Astur Quiritibus S.P.D.
>
> It is for me a pleasure to announce that a Temple dedicated to the
> exalted Minerva has been opened inside the Academia Thules by the
> Priestess of Minerva in Nova Roma, Senatrix Patricia Cassia. You can
> visit the Temple by clicking on the following link:
> http://www.insulaumbra.com/academiathules/minerva/index.html
>
> Given the Academia's goals and fields of interests, it has always
been
> clear that it should be, as an institution, be put under the
protection
> of the Armed Goddess, as She has always protected those linked with
> crafts, arts and thinking. Let's hope that She will accept this
> dedication and that She will bless the Academia and Nova Roma.
>
> Many thanks to Senatrix Patricia Cassia, who has proved to be a
> blessing from the Goddess all by herself :-).
>
> =====
> Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
>
> CN�SALIX�ASTVR�T�F�A�NEP�TRIB�OVF
> PRAETOR�ET�SENATOR
> TRIVMVIR�ACADEMIAE
> LICTOR�CVRIATVS
>
> ___________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Sorteos - http://loteria.yahoo.es
> Juega a la Loter�a Primitiva sin salir de casa


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Academia Announce: Temple of Minerva
From:	"Gnaeus Salix Astur" <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 18:50:52 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius"
<mballetta@h...> wrote:
> All hail the Diety that governs the thinking.
> Vita sin literas mors est!
> Vah! Denuone Latine loquebar? Me ineptum. Interdum modo elabitur.
> Oh! Was I speaking Latin again? Silly me. Sometimes it just sort of
> slips out, lol, don't I wish.
> That is: life without knowledge is death or something very similar.
> Congratulations on your new temple.

Thank you for your kind words :-).

CN�SALIX�ASTVR�T�F�A�NEP�TRIB�OVF


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Off topic?
From:	Bill Gawne <gawne@cesmail.net>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 14:54:39 -0400

Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius wrote:

> I surely miss the days of good hand to hand combat or with bladed
> weapons where each person actually used their own skills and
> prowess.

You do, do you? Have you had much experience with it?

-- Marinus (Retired Master Sergeant USMC)


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Off topic?
From:	Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@cesmail.net>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:01:51 -0400

Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius <mballetta@hotmail.com> writes:

> When you need a job done that is as distastfull as killing, do
> you really want someone with a bleeding heart?

Not necessarily a bleeding heart, but I certainly want someone
with a conscience.

[...]
> Unlike in love, in war it is best not to have emotions and to have
> people carry out objectives without question. The ideal soldier.

You really don't have any idea what you're talking about, do you?

-- Marinus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Proposed Lex Fabia de Ratione--- a Question
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:16:19 EDT

In a message dated 6/23/03 4:48:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
cordus@strategikon.org writes:
Salvete

> To divert for a moment from matters of present moment,
> may I suggest that the sources are far from clear on
> this, and it is quite possible to argue that many of
> Rome's opponents in the Social War were in fact
> seeking not to gain Roman citizenship but to replace
> Rome with an Italian confederacy. My personal feeling
> is that some wanted one, some the other, and others
> were simply confused and angry with no clear goals at
> all.

I disagree. History does not bear you out. But please continue

>
> But back to the meat & potatoes:
>
> > We want to become more Roman, true. Yet we have
> > ignored the basic important part of being Roman.
> > Citizenship. And as long we continue to do so, we
> > will never be Romanlike...
> ...
> > Which brings us to Lex Fabia de Ratione. This is
> > not a historic law. It will work, but it ignores
> > the most basic tenet of being Roman. The privilege
> > of voting.
>
> Sir, I am utterly baffled. Your oration was masterful,
> and inspires me to cling to my citizenship and
> begrudge it to others. But what on earth has it to do
> with the Fabian system of calculating votes in the
> Centuriate Assembly?
>

Ah, but you missed my point entirely Cordus, old boy. We have these
continuous runoffs
because people here DO NOT take the Nova Roma franchise seriously. My speech
was more to get the people here to realize being an NR citizen was not
something that comes with the morning paper. It is an honor and an obligation. If
ALL Romans had exercised their option to vote would we even be having this
discussion?

> In what way, exactly, does it ignore the privilege of
> voting? By allowing all citizens to vote? This was a basic
> right of citizens under Roman law, the right of
> suffragium. By declining to make them all vote at different times
> and for very short periods at the cost of unnecessary
> labour and confusion? I do not believe that this makes
> the ability to vote a lesser privilege than it is or
> ever was. By allowing everyone to vote, rather than
> disenfranchizing those who happen to be in the lower
> voting-classes? I do not believe that taking the vote
> away from people legally entitled to wield it will
> help to raise the value of citizenship; rather, it
> will give the lie to the constitutional promise that
> every citizen has the right to vote.
>

Iulius made a very sensible proposal which I believe will work, IF the
populace responds and cooperates as I hoped my speech will make them.

> You had my ear, sir, with your stirring words, and
> where I expected a crushing climax, I found a non
> sequitur. It makes no sense at all. I am utterly
> baffled.
>

Sorry to baffle you. That wasn't my intention.
What I was trying to point out was several things.

First there was never a hand book on elections and voting in Ancient Rome.
Why? Because it wasn't needed.
Second citizens took their duties in the Republic quite seriously. This is
something
we cannot seem to do here. The problems here with voting is not the that one
system
here is better then others, they all would work, if the populace would
cooperate. It is this lack of cooperation that sinks us every time.
We must have our census, figure out the true ACTIVE population here, and
project from there.
But, we cannot seem to started on the census. Once we start that, I'd then
tailor the voting system to that number.

Remember to most people Nova Roma is a role playing game. But to people like
us it is role play, where our dedication makes the difference.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Off topic?
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 19:21:57 -0000

Sir, yes Sir.
Slave Marinus.
Not actually in the military though. I did spend some time in the
Civil Air Patrol as a cadet but I never had the privelage to serve in
any branch of the armed forces.
While I greatly appreciate the technology and wouldn't like to see it
change, I have an immense fondness for the skills and abilities in
the area of pugilism.
I can see from my posting that I didn't really express myself clearly
in that meaning.
I admire a person who is physically fit and skilled in the use of
their body as a weapon. You can appreciate the time and effort that
went into their training. Not to belittle the skills in firearms but
I think you understand what I mean when I say that nearly anyone can
fire a gun. I hope you were not offended by my comments.
I currently train and have experience in both empty hand and weapons
(bladed and such). I'm adequate but aspire to be better.
Vale
Marcus
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Bill Gawne <gawne@c...> wrote:
> Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius wrote:
>
> > I surely miss the days of good hand to hand combat or with bladed
> > weapons where each person actually used their own skills and
> > prowess.
>
> You do, do you? Have you had much experience with it?
>
> -- Marinus (Retired Master Sergeant USMC)


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Off topic?
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 19:26:20 -0000

Yes, I think I do but I'm willing to be educated if you wouldn't mid
being civil about it. I'm sure you have experience that you would
like to share that I can't begin to imagine. I'm willing to listen
if you wish to speak.
I think the soldiers need to carry out the orders of their superiors
without question. There are cold decisions that need to be made and
I'm sure that in many cases the lesser of two evils is often the
result.
Please give me your views, I would like to learn.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
<gawne@c...> wrote:
> Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius <mballetta@h...> writes:
>
> > When you need a job done that is as distastfull as killing, do
> > you really want someone with a bleeding heart?
>
> Not necessarily a bleeding heart, but I certainly want someone
> with a conscience.
>
> [...]
> > Unlike in love, in war it is best not to have emotions and to have
> > people carry out objectives without question. The ideal soldier.
>
> You really don't have any idea what you're talking about, do you?
>
> -- Marinus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: The Proposed Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum and History
From:	"gaiuspopilliuslaenas" <ksterne@bellsouth.net>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 19:29:12 -0000

Salvete Gai Iuli et Quirites,

I am immensly pleased that Gaius Iulius Scarus has joined us in Nova
Roma. I am amazed at his scholorship and gratified by his
helpfulness (he even taught me how to properly pronounce my own
nomem ;-)).

Now he comes forth with a historical method to correct our election
problems, which appears workable and simple.

I would ask the roagtores to speak as to the actual workability of
the proposal based on their requirements and experience. As for 24
hours being too little time for cives to vote, I disagree. It takes
less than 5 minutes to vote at the cista. If a cive cannot be
bothered to know when they are too vote, and then take that 5
minutes, they don't understand or appreciate the value of their
citizenship as Quintus Fabius has pointed out.

I fully support Gaius Iulius' idea subject to the report of the
rogatores and I publiclly thank him for his support of our Republic.

Valete,
Gaius Popillius Laenas
Tribunus Plebis
Propraetor America Austrorientalis


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Proposed Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum
From:	Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@cesmail.net>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:35:28 -0400

gaiuspopilliuslaenas <ksterne@bellsouth.net> writes:

> As for 24
> hours being too little time for cives to vote, I disagree. It takes
> less than 5 minutes to vote at the cista.

This assumes continuous computer and network access.

What if your century is scheduled to vote between noon
Saturday and noon Sunday, and you're a student, or a
weekend reenactor, or working at a job which requires
you to be away from net access during that time?

What if your telephone or cable or whatever you use to
access the net is out due to an interruption in utility
service? What if, like some of the citizens in my
province, your ship is at sea during that interval?

Our current time allowance provides sufficient leeway for
these matters to have little impact on an election.

-- Marinus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Off topic?
From:	Bill Gawne <gawne@cesmail.net>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:44:49 -0400

Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius <mballetta@hotmail.com> writes:

> Slave Marinus.

Salve Belisarius.

> Not actually in the military though. I did spend some time in the
> Civil Air Patrol as a cadet

I also served as a CAP cadet when I was in high school, back shortly
after the Wright Brothers demonstrated powered flight. (OK, it was
the early 70's.)

> but I never had the privelage to serve in any branch of the armed forces.

No time like the present! Call 1-800-MARINES now and they'll hook you
up with a recruiter near you. Maybe you *can* be one of us.

> While I greatly appreciate the technology and wouldn't like to see it
> change, I have an immense fondness for the skills and abilities in
> the area of pugilism.

There's an art in it, true. Though most of that art is lost in the
reality of hand to hand combat on a battlefield.

> I admire a person who is physically fit and skilled in the use of
> their body as a weapon. You can appreciate the time and effort that
> went into their training.

Indeed.

> Not to belittle the skills in firearms but
> I think you understand what I mean when I say that nearly anyone can
> fire a gun.

I don't know about that. I've put in a lot of time as a shooting
coach, and while almost all Marines get there eventually, I've seen
some civilians at ranges who never could figure out the basics of
sight alignment, sight picture, breath control, and trigger control.

> I hope you were not offended by my comments.

Not offended, but somewhat chagrined. You're saying the kinds of
things that I often hear from young men who are college students
of mine with very little real world knowledge or experience.

> I currently train and have experience in both empty hand and weapons
> (bladed and such). I'm adequate but aspire to be better.

That's a good attitude to have. My training runs toward
Shorin Ryu karate while I was serving on Okinawa, the standard
close combat training that all Marines receive, collegiate
fencing, and fencing rapier in the SCA.

-- Marinus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Citizen Sarcasm
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 19:49:51 -0000

Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.
I think some people in togas are plotting against me.

I know I'm new here but I have noticed a trend in many replies to
comments.
People seem to jump at the chance to belittle or condemn others point
of view without really getting a chance to find out if they are
deserving. Especially when we really don't know eachother well.
I've always found it prudent to feel someone out and talk to them
first to make sure and even then, if a person wishes to be an idiot,
so be it, it isn't my place to tell them so but try to enlighten them.

Beginnings are a delicate time and great allowences should be made
for mutual understanding.

Judging from the trend, I'm surprised anyone feels comfortable giving
an opinion that doesn't go with the status quo for fear of being
ridiculed or ostracised.
I don't mind people disagreeing with me or havinfg different opinions
and are willing to discuss them intelligently (as some of you have
already done, thank you).
I enjoy discussions and to have everyone agree would be a bore but
some people seem so caught up in themselves that it becomes an
extremely personal assault.
I hope this is the exception and not the rule as we have a community
(Nation) of people to give an extremely varied outlook on a number of
issues that can make for fantastically wonderful conversations.

Excuse the diatribe as get off my soap box.


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Proposed Lex Fabia de Ratione--- a Question
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 21:07:26 +0100 (BST)

A. Apollonius Cordus to Senator & Consular Q. Fabius
Maximus, and all citizens and peregrines, greetings.

> We have these continuous runoffs because people here
> DO NOT take the Nova Roma franchise seriously.

We have continuous run-offs here because the electoral
system is faulty. Yes, it would be less *likely* to
require run-offs if more people voted, but that is not
the point. Please show me a nation in the world whose
electoral system would not return the requisite number
of candidates given a low turn-out. I know of none.

First-Past-The-Post does not require run-offs. List
systems of Proportional Representation do not require
run-offs. The Single Transferable Vote does not
require run-offs. Alternative Vote does require
run-offs. Even Second Ballot, which is an inferior
version of Alternative Vote, only requires a single
run-off. Off the top of my head I can't think of any
other electoral systems.

Why on earth should Nova Roma be taken seriously if
its electoral system is inferior to that of any other
nation in the world?

And why should people value their right to vote if
they know that voting will not necessarily result in
the election of the candidate who has the largest
support, or even of any candidates at all?

> Iulius made a very sensible proposal which I believe
> will work, IF the populace responds and cooperates
> as I hoped my speech will make them.

If you think this proposal will work then I'm afraid
you have not read my assessment of it. It would be
neither fair nor efficient, and would not eliminate
run-offs.

> First there was never a hand book on elections and
> voting in Ancient Rome.
> Why? Because it wasn't needed.

This is true, but irrelevant. The Roman voting system
was much more complicated for the voter than our
current system, the Fabian system or any other system
you care to name. The Romans needed no handbook
because they were familiar with it from time
immemorial.

If the Iulian system were implemented today, when no
one is familiar with it, it too would require a hefty
handbook. Contrarywise, the Fabian system would
require no handbook if people were used to it. Your
argument leads nowhere.

> We must have our census, figure out the true ACTIVE
> population here, and project from there.

I have said elsewhere, and I shall not repeat the
reasons here, that the Census will most likely make
very little difference to voter turn-out.

> But, we cannot seem to started on the census. Once
> we start that, I'd then tailor the voting system to
> that number.

I should expect a seasoned and sensible legislator
like yourself to understand that one does not make
laws to suit a situation which one expects to change
in a few years when one can just as easily make a law
that will last forever. If we vote in the Fabian
system, it will work for any size of population larger
than a handful.

Once again I can discern in your message no
substantial arguments against the Fabian system.
Please do try again, replying to your messages is a
welcome relief from dealing with the genuine and
constructive criticisms of Governor Iunius Silanus and
others.

Cordus

=====
www.collapsibletheatre.co.uk

________________________________________________________________________
Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo!
Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Off topic?
From:	Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@cesmail.net>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 16:08:09 -0400

Salve Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius,

Recapping our earlier exchange:

Marcus Ambrosius had stated:
> > > Unlike in love, in war it is best not to have emotions and to have
> > > people carry out objectives without question. The ideal soldier.

And I replied:
> > You really don't have any idea what you're talking about, do you?

This brings us to Marcus Ambrosius most recent reply to me:
> Yes, I think I do but I'm willing to be educated if you wouldn't mid
> being civil about it.

I've been civil so far. I'm having a bit of difficulty being
*cordial* just now, since your comment is the kind of thing which
puts my teeth on edge, but I'm being civil.

> I'm sure you have experience that you would
> like to share that I can't begin to imagine. I'm willing to listen
> if you wish to speak.

I could go on at great length. But to keep this within the size which
is reasonable for a mailing list post, I'll try to just hit the high
points.

Military discipline covers a great many things. It is a way of life
which includes common language, reference sets, and expectations.
One of those expectations is instant execution of commands, and
much relies on that timely execution.

Civilians often confuse (with the help of poorly written accounts)
the difference between commands and orders. Orders, in general,
are instruction sets covering a prolonged amount of time. While
orders are intended to be carried out, they generally also provide
for the best military judgement of the person who is carrying them
out. That reliance on "best military judgement" means that every
person in uniform, from the newest boot Private to the most senior
General, is expected to have the intelligence and the training
necessary to be able to exercise that "best military judgement."

> I think the soldiers need to carry out the orders of their superiors
> without question.

See above. If you want to re-state that as "commands" then we can
agree. If I tell my troops to fall in, I want instant action and
no discussion. "Right Face" or "Present Arms" are similar commands,
as is "Forward March." More importantly, in combat commands such
as "Charge!" or "Cease Fire!" must be obeyed instantly and without
question.

But in general if I give an order -- for example "Take your squad
and secure that hill." I want the person I give the order to have
the training and intelligence to be able to carry out my intent,
in accordance with good order and discipline. So if the hill proves
to be occupied by an enemy force, I expect that squad leader to
communicate that to me rather than going ahead blindly and getting
the entire squad wiped out.

For a much more in-depth look at stories of Marines in action,
making tough combat decisions, I can recommend several books.
Please contact me off-list if you'd be interested.

-- Marinus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Off topic?
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 20:06:23 -0000

Thank you very much for getting back to me.
Do the Marines recruit the 40 and over crowd? LOL
I know I look young for my age. I had a cousin in the marines and
navy and 2 uncles in the navy. I know from experience I wouldn't
make a very good soldier, I always had problems taking orders but
almost went to officer training school.
I'm pretty much set in my ways now in home and business but I have
great repect for our proud men and women who serve and do what I can.

I appreciate your comments and I'm impressed with your Okinawan
training.
My teacher was in the military, works with the various police forces,
is a psychotherapist and teaches rifle and pistol saftey NRA cert. -
he wears many hats.
I spent 20 years with him in 5 animal style Shaolin Kung Fu - he is
one of the few well known instructors in the art on the East coast
and refered by many Chinese teachers to their students who move here.
I switched to Sun style Tai Chi last year to experience the internal
styles - so much for my pedigree.
I personally don't like guns, have only shot a pistol once and
appreciate your views on shooting, I don't disagree with them however
how many children have accidentally killed with a handgun carelessly
left around the house? There is defuinately more to shooting but you
get my drift.
My views on militay combat may be naive due to my lack of experience
in the military but I hope I can impress you with my knowledge of
strategy some day. I'm much better in that arena and SUn Tzu,
Musashi and Macchiavelli were just some of my teachers - their
teaching is also well applied in the business industry.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Bill Gawne <gawne@c...> wrote:
> Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius <mballetta@h...> writes:
>
> > Slave Marinus.
>
> Salve Belisarius.
>
> > Not actually in the military though. I did spend some time in the
> > Civil Air Patrol as a cadet
>
> I also served as a CAP cadet when I was in high school, back shortly
> after the Wright Brothers demonstrated powered flight. (OK, it was
> the early 70's.)
>
> > but I never had the privelage to serve in any branch of the armed
forces.
>
> No time like the present! Call 1-800-MARINES now and they'll hook
you
> up with a recruiter near you. Maybe you *can* be one of us.
>
> > While I greatly appreciate the technology and wouldn't like to
see it
> > change, I have an immense fondness for the skills and abilities in
> > the area of pugilism.
>
> There's an art in it, true. Though most of that art is lost in the
> reality of hand to hand combat on a battlefield.
>
> > I admire a person who is physically fit and skilled in the use of
> > their body as a weapon. You can appreciate the time and effort
that
> > went into their training.
>
> Indeed.
>
> > Not to belittle the skills in firearms but
> > I think you understand what I mean when I say that nearly anyone
can
> > fire a gun.
>
> I don't know about that. I've put in a lot of time as a shooting
> coach, and while almost all Marines get there eventually, I've seen
> some civilians at ranges who never could figure out the basics of
> sight alignment, sight picture, breath control, and trigger control.
>
> > I hope you were not offended by my comments.
>
> Not offended, but somewhat chagrined. You're saying the kinds of
> things that I often hear from young men who are college students
> of mine with very little real world knowledge or experience.
>
> > I currently train and have experience in both empty hand and
weapons
> > (bladed and such). I'm adequate but aspire to be better.
>
> That's a good attitude to have. My training runs toward
> Shorin Ryu karate while I was serving on Okinawa, the standard
> close combat training that all Marines receive, collegiate
> fencing, and fencing rapier in the SCA.
>
> -- Marinus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Proposal for a Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum
From:	"Gaius Galerius Peregrinator" <gaiusgalerius@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 20:14:45 +0000

Salve:

I am sorry I don't know your name. Thank you for your reply to my post,
and my thanks to Cordus too for his reply, who is carrying the argument
admirably and I can imagine the work and effort that goes with that, and if
this proposal passes I want him to run the elections even if he says no.
We'll have a praetorian guard, or whatever it was in those early days, pick
him up from that boat overlooking that glorious bay, to come and run the
elections. Just like Cincinnatus, because he seems to be the only one able
to understand the workings of this proposal.

Your observations are fair, but let me put it another way.

It seems to me there are 2 issues in question here. The first is that
of authenticity, and I think most of us are for authenticity but there is a
limit to how much authenticity we can have because we don't live in 200 BC.
Our sensibilities and our realities are not those of 200 BC and even if we
were to bring forth the Romans themselves into the 21st Century they'd have
to conduct their lives differently than the way they did it back in Rome.

We want to revive the culture, the traditions, and the ways but we must
be practical about it, or we'll just be role playing on the side. It is
like interpreting a law. There are 2 ways to interpret a law: One
interpretation according to the letter of the law and another according to
the spirit of the law, and when we interpret a law to the letter we may
commit injustice, and we must follow the same analogy with NR. We'd bring
back the tradition according to the spirit of the tradition and not to the
letter when it can't be helped.

We don't have slavery nor gladiatorial exibitions nor do we treat our
women as property or second class citizens and these are mores by which the
ancients lived and it doesn't make us any less when we condemn those mores
as we try to be Romans because there is much in the culture that is rich,
beautiful, and speaks to the human condition which is the same then as
today.

And that brings me to the heart of the issue: we have a 21st Century
organization to run and it has to be run efficiently and to do that we need
an efficient and practical way to choose our CEOs, presidents and prime
ministers, that is, the magistrates.

I made a copy of the proposal when it came out, 11 pages. I started to
read it and half way through I gave up. No modern organization or
corporation could pass a system like that. It is too long and too
complicated. Elections ought to be simple and transparent. I don't mean to
dig up the horse, as we often do, but I just want to conclude my argument
and won't bring it up again since there are 400 other members on this list.
In my opinion, a simple majority vote system and a runoff for the top 2
candidates is simple, efficient, and representative. I have no problem with
the centuries and century points, and that is in the spirit of the
tradition, and I appreciate it that people who are active and knowledgeable
have a stronger say. Furthermore, let's syncronize the elections instead
of separate elections for council and separate elections for tribune etc, so
the elections are events of importance. Too much of a thing trivializes it.

Valete omnes

Gaius Galerius Peregrinator.

----Original Message Follows----
From: politicog <politicog@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Proposal for a Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum
Centuriatorum
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 10:20:10 -0700 (PDT)

I concur with the statements that others have made
that the current system has too many run-offs, and
therefore a better system must be instituted. However,
I must disagree with your statement that "everywhere
in the 21st century, magistrates are elected by
majority vote." In fact, in most Western nations it
is at best who have a greater plurality. In the 2000
U.S. election, George W. Bush received a majority from
the electoral college, however that was not reflective
of the popular vote...

(trimmed for brevity)

_________________________________________________________________
Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Off topic?
From:	"Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius" <mballetta@hotmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 20:21:39 -0000

I find us in agreement then and my misuse regarding the semantics of
orders and commands would surely then put your teeth on edge.
Orders require thought on the part of the person carrying them out
while commands are stimulus response type actions.
Thank you and I do appreciate your civility and I'm sorry if I didn't
make you feal cordial; I hope that changes in the future.

Leadership is a matter of intelligence, trusworthiness, humaneness,
courage and sterness.
Humaneness should be foremost - Love and compassion of the people and
for the hard work, intelligence also - the ability to plan and to
know when to change effectively. Trustworthyness to make people sure
of punishment or reward, the courage to seize opportunity and make
certain victory and the sterness to establish dicipline in the ranks
by strict punishment.

Dicipline means organization, chain of command and logistics.
Regulate and group troops, officers to lead and keep them together
and never forget to oversee supplies.

I hope I learned your lessons.
Salve.

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Gnaeus Equitius Marinus
<gawne@c...> wrote:
> Salve Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius,
>
> Recapping our earlier exchange:
>
> Marcus Ambrosius had stated:
> > > > Unlike in love, in war it is best not to have emotions and to
have
> > > > people carry out objectives without question. The ideal
soldier.
>
> And I replied:
> > > You really don't have any idea what you're talking about, do
you?
>
> This brings us to Marcus Ambrosius most recent reply to me:
> > Yes, I think I do but I'm willing to be educated if you wouldn't
mid
> > being civil about it.
>
> I've been civil so far. I'm having a bit of difficulty being
> *cordial* just now, since your comment is the kind of thing which
> puts my teeth on edge, but I'm being civil.
>
> > I'm sure you have experience that you would
> > like to share that I can't begin to imagine. I'm willing to
listen
> > if you wish to speak.
>
> I could go on at great length. But to keep this within the size
which
> is reasonable for a mailing list post, I'll try to just hit the high
> points.
>
> Military discipline covers a great many things. It is a way of life
> which includes common language, reference sets, and expectations.
> One of those expectations is instant execution of commands, and
> much relies on that timely execution.
>
> Civilians often confuse (with the help of poorly written accounts)
> the difference between commands and orders. Orders, in general,
> are instruction sets covering a prolonged amount of time. While
> orders are intended to be carried out, they generally also provide
> for the best military judgement of the person who is carrying them
> out. That reliance on "best military judgement" means that every
> person in uniform, from the newest boot Private to the most senior
> General, is expected to have the intelligence and the training
> necessary to be able to exercise that "best military judgement."
>
> > I think the soldiers need to carry out the orders of their
superiors
> > without question.
>
> See above. If you want to re-state that as "commands" then we can
> agree. If I tell my troops to fall in, I want instant action and
> no discussion. "Right Face" or "Present Arms" are similar commands,
> as is "Forward March." More importantly, in combat commands such
> as "Charge!" or "Cease Fire!" must be obeyed instantly and without
> question.
>
> But in general if I give an order -- for example "Take your squad
> and secure that hill." I want the person I give the order to have
> the training and intelligence to be able to carry out my intent,
> in accordance with good order and discipline. So if the hill proves
> to be occupied by an enemy force, I expect that squad leader to
> communicate that to me rather than going ahead blindly and getting
> the entire squad wiped out.
>
> For a much more in-depth look at stories of Marines in action,
> making tough combat decisions, I can recommend several books.
> Please contact me off-list if you'd be interested.
>
> -- Marinus


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: The Proposed Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum and History
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 20:38:28 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "gaiuspopilliuslaenas"
<ksterne@b...> wrote:
> Salvete Gai Iuli et Quirites,
>
> I would ask the roagtores to speak as to the actual workability of
> the proposal based on their requirements and experience. As for 24
> hours being too little time for cives to vote, I disagree. It
takes
> less than 5 minutes to vote at the cista. If a cive cannot be
> bothered to know when they are too vote, and then take that 5
> minutes, they don't understand or appreciate the value of their
> citizenship as Quintus Fabius has pointed out.

Salve,

I can only speak for myself and my experience as Rogator. Having
read the honorable Scaurus' proposal, I do think that it is workable
from the Rogator's stand point since only a few centuries would be
voting on a given day. Really not much different than now since not
everyone votes all at once anyway. Just it would be a little more
orderly in we wouldn't have to do a huge massive sorting procedure at
the end of the election period. The only real additional burden that
I can see would be the Rogators having to know what centuries are
permitted to vote on a given day in order to invalidate any votes
that may come from someone in a century that isn't suppose to be
voting on a given day. A notice similar to the one used now for when
an invalid voter code is received that states to the effect that the
voter(s) that cast ballot(s) # 1234 is invalid, the correct voting
day for that voter's century is --insert correct date here--.

Alternatively a simple database matrix of what centuries can vote on
what day and have the ballot's century be checked against the matrix
and if it's the wrong day return an error message to the voter that
tells them the correct voting day for them rather than have the
ballot be emailed to the Rogators.

Scaurus' proposal is quite doable, at least in my own personal
opinion and experiene as Rogator. I can't speak for my fellow
Rogators, however.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Proposal for a Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 21:48:57 +0100 (BST)

A. Apollonius Cordus to C. Galerius Peregrinator, and
all citizens and peregrines, greetings.

> Thank you for your reply to my post,
> and my thanks to Cordus too for his reply, who is
> carrying the argument
> admirably and I can imagine the work and effort that
> goes with that, and if
> this proposal passes I want him to run the elections
> even if he says no. We'll have a praetorian guard,
> or whatever it was in those early days, pick
> him up from that boat overlooking that glorious bay,
> to come and run the elections.

Goodness, well, thanks for your praise and thanks, I
think, for your threat. :)

> We'd bring back the tradition according to the
> irit of the tradition and not to the
> letter when it can't be helped.

Thanks for your lucid exposition of this argument
against over-rigid reconstruction. I find myself quite
in agreement.

> I made a copy of the proposal when it came out, 11
> pages. I started to read it and half way through I
> gave up. No modern organization or
> corporation could pass a system like that. It is
> too long and too complicated.

Ah, and here I'll have to disagree. Not only is
Alternative Vote (the system on which the Fabian
system is based) actually used, with no trouble from
candidates, in Australia and the Republic of Ireland,
but it is also used in various organizations smaller
than nations, including the British House of Lords
(upper legislative chamber) and Oxford University (to
elect the Chancellor). My student union uses it, with
no confusion to anyone.

It really is a fairly simple system when one gets used
to it. If we implemented it for this year's elections,
then by next year you'd be quite comfortable enough
with it to explain it to all the citizens who had
joined since.

I'm not a mathematically minded person. I think in
words, not numbers and proportions. If I can
understand this system, then anyone can understand it.
Honestly. Trust me, I'm a civil servant. ;)

Cordus

=====
www.collapsibletheatre.co.uk

________________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: The Proposed Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum and History
From:	"gaiuspopilliuslaenas" <ksterne@bellsouth.net>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 20:51:58 -0000

> This assumes continuous computer and network access.
>
> What if your century is scheduled to vote between noon
> Saturday and noon Sunday, and you're a student, or a
> weekend reenactor, or working at a job which requires
> you to be away from net access during that time?
>
> What if your telephone or cable or whatever you use to
> access the net is out due to an interruption in utility
> service? What if, like some of the citizens in my
> province, your ship is at sea during that interval?
>
> Our current time allowance provides sufficient leeway for
> these matters to have little impact on an election.
>
> -- Marinus

Salve Propraetor Gnae Equiti,

Surely even the most determined student doesn't attend classes 24
hours a day ;-), and I think the liklihood of one's utilities being
out that long is remote.

As to the other scenarios, I believe those individuals would have to
arrange for someone else to submit their vote. A little effort on
behalf of the citizen would, as I said, help to increase the value
of the franchise in ones' mind, and, inn my opinion, a small price
to pay for a truly historic system.

Vale,
Gaius Popillius Laenas


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Proposed Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum and History
From:	"=?iso-8859-1?q?A.=20Apollonius=20Cordus?=" <cordus@strategikon.org>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 22:02:16 +0100 (BST)

A. Apollonius Cordus to Rogator Q. Cassius Calvus and
all citizens and peregrines, greetings.

> I can only speak for myself and my experience as
> Rogator. Having read the honorable Scaurus'
> proposal, I do think that it is workable
> from the Rogator's stand point since only a few
> centuries would be voting on a given day.

It's good to have you back in the discussion, both for
your clear thinking and for your vote-counting
experience.

I wonder if I could impose on you to answer a couple
of other questions about the Iulian system:

In your experience, how long does it take to count the
votes of a century? Would 24 hours be sufficient, and
how much time would be left out of the 24 hours for
the voters to cast their votes?

More importantly, you said of the Fabian system:

"After careful study I do believe that the methodology
employed would produce an accurate reflection of the
will of the voters".

Would you be prepared to say the same of the Iulian
system?

Thanks for your time,

Cordus

=====
www.collapsibletheatre.co.uk

________________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Proposed Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum
From:	Gnaeus Equitius Marinus <gawne@cesmail.net>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 17:03:47 -0400

> Salve Propraetor Gnae Equiti,

Salve Propraetor Gaie Popilli,

> Surely even the most determined student doesn't attend classes 24
> hours a day ;-),

Of course not. But many students don't have continuous net access
on weekends.

> and I think the liklihood of one's utilities being
> out that long is remote.

Want to bet? My home phone was out from last Wednesday until
this morning. I've had cable outages which have taken me
offline for several days at a time. This from a home located
in suburban Maryland in the United States. How much greater
is the possibility for one of our citizens in South America?
Or rural New Mexico?

> As to the other scenarios, I believe those individuals would have to
> arrange for someone else to submit their vote.

While I agree that proxy voting is sometimes necessary, I'd rather
that we limit in as much as possible the occassions when it would
be required. Our current voting interval does that.

-- Marinus


Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Re: Calling all citizens of Hibernia
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 23:07:02 +0200

Salve Marcus Calidius Gracchus!

< May I also send my greetings to DIANA MORAVIA AVENTINA for a
< kindness that she showed me some time ago - Diana , you were right
< VENVS has smiled upon me!

It's great to see you back! And I am *really* glad that things are going
well for you :-)

Vale and talk to you again soon!
Diana Moravia

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Citizen Sarcasm
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 21:22:55 -0000

>
>
>
> Judging from the trend, I'm surprised anyone feels comfortable
giving
> an opinion that doesn't go with the status quo for fear of being
> ridiculed or ostracised.
> I don't mind people disagreeing with me or havinfg different
opinions
> and are willing to discuss them intelligently (as some of you have
> already done, thank you).
> I enjoy discussions and to have everyone agree would be a bore but
> some people seem so caught up in themselves that it becomes an
> extremely personal assault.
> I hope this is the exception and not the rule as we have a
community
> (Nation) of people to give an extremely varied outlook on a number
of
> issues that can make for fantastically wonderful conversations.
>
> Excuse the diatribe as get off my soap box.

Salve again Marce,

Just a few points on your comments:

1) It has been said that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

2) Think more positve; at least 90% of your postings are being
addressed so whatever you are saying has some affect and gets some
sort of reply even if awful in your eyes. That in itself is a great
achievement, especially for a newbie. We have all taken some flak
once and a while on this list. Sometimes if a person reacts to a
posting in a hostile manner it may be that you hit a sore point
somewhere. Still our moderators clamp down if things get really
ignorant.

3) Let me remind you of the words of my old friend Oscar Wilde; " The
only thing more horrible than being talked about is NOT BEING TALKED
ABOUT AT ALL!!!!"

4) Let me also remind you of the words of General Reamata, " Be hopy
in yo wook!", at least on this list anyway,
so at least rejoin the frey!

Well Quintus the poet; I didn't know it. Ah, when is our next NR
literary contest?

Respectfully Marce, have fun - Quintus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Proposal for a Lex Fabia de Ratione Comitiorum Centuriatorum
From:	politicog <politicog@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 14:24:15 -0700 (PDT)

I know that most of the discussion so far on this
proposal has focused on the magisterial elections.
However, I think there is a portion dealing with the
Comitia in its legislative aspect that has not been
adequately addressed.
In IV.C. (second sentence), the proposal states: "In
the case of legislation, for each proposed law, each
voter shall have the option to vote 'yes (vti
rogas)' or 'no (antiqvo)." Then in V.A.2: "In the
case of a vote on a lex, each century shall vote in
favor of the lex if a majority of the votes received
by members of the century are in favor. Otherwise, the
century shall be considered to have voted against the
proposed lex." V.B.2: "In the case of a vote on a lex,
a simple majority of the centuries casting votes must
vote in favor for the lex to be adopted." V.B.4: "In
the case of a vote on a lex, a 'simple
majority' is hereby defined as 'one half of the number
of centuries casting votes, plus one, fractions being
rounded down'. A century in which no voters cast 'yes'
votes shall not be counted toward this total."

I find that last sentence of V.B.4 to be
disturbing: "A century in which no voters cast 'yes'
votes shall not be counted toward this total." Why?
Because it means that every citizen in a century could
vote "no" on a proposed lex, and it would invalidate
the entire vote of the century. Yet, if a single
citizen voted "yes" in that century, the total vote of
the century would be counted as a "no" vote. Or,
let's assume we have a vote in which five centuries
vote, and each century has 5 voters:

Century 1: (1)yes (2) yes (3) yes (4) no (5) no
Century 2: (1) no (2) no (3) no (4) yes (5) yes
Century 3: (1) no (2) no (3) no (4) abstains (5)
abstains)
Century 4: (1) yes (2) yes (3) yes (4) not voting (5)
not voting
Century 5: (1) no (2) no (3) no (4) no (5) no

So in this simplistic example, we have five
centuries voting, 21 citizens out of a possible 25.
But because of the wording of the proposed lex, the
votes of Centuries 3 and 5 are void (no one cast a
"yes" vote). Then the result ends up looking like
this:

Century 1: yes
Century 2: no
Century 4: yes

Final result: lex approved, although there were 15
"no" votes and only 8 "yes" votes.

I do not believe that this was an intentional
mistake on behalf of the Senior Consul or his staff,
so I would suggest that in the final language of the
second sentence of V.B.4, it would read: "A century in
which no voters cast ANY votes shall not be counted
toward this total."

I believe the author(s) simply were looking at the
language used for magisterial votes, since in those
cases the only options are to vote "yes" or leave it
blank. But in the case of leges, "no" is an
appropriate option and needs to be appropriately
counted.

I would remark at this point that I am generally in
favor of this proposal, I think the idea of using
approval voting in the centuries for magistrates is a
good idea, and will make for better mandates for the
magistrates. However, I see this as provision for the
counting of votes on leges as fatally flawed, and if
that language remains in the final proposal I would
have to vote against this proposal.

Lucius Quintius Constantius

P.S. -- In looking at my profile in the Album Gentium,
I see that I am currently only assigned to a Tribe. I
am an Assidui, but I have no century allocation. How
can I resolve this so that I can exercise my vote when
the Comitia is called to order?

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Nova Roman citizenship
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 23:53:25 +0200

Salve Q Fabius,

<Since this is all so important to us, why then do we award Roman
citizenship
<as if it was a cracker jack bauble?

(snip)
<This is where I have felt since day one we have failed. Nova Roma
<citizenship is nothing. Why you can walk away and if you want rejoin 6
months later.
<And this is a fairly recent law, there was a time, you could walk away, and
<rejoin the next day.

You've made some good arguments against automatic Nova Roma citizenship,
which all of us here have taken advantage of. The problem is this click and
send appliation is very much the nature of the beast as far as internet
users are concerned. We want instant gratification and we want it
yesterday...
The bad news is that we probably have 1000 citizens who joined on a whim,
never to be heard from again. The good news is that through clicking and
sending, we often get excellent people who walk into Nova Roma and are
active from day one and stay.

<Allies often demanded citizenship in return for aid, and the Romans
refused,
<giving instead the title "Friends of the Roman people." expecting the
allies
<to be happy with that.
I don't think you were calling for a change in procedure, but honestly, we
should keep the instant gratification citizenship until the 'future' socii
of inactive citizens are removed from our Album Gentium. Their presence
would only cause newcomers to get discouraged after seeing perhaps 1400
iniactive 'socii' citizens listed in the Album Gentium while they would have
to wait. Unless of course we have two grades of socii: socii who are MIA and
new socii waiting to make the step up to membership.

Anyway, just a thought. Honestly I needed a break from reading so many
electoral reform emails :-p

Vale,
Diana Moravia


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Election Laws
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 00:05:13 +0200

Salve G Equitius Marinus,

< I did say
<earlier that approval voting mitigates against extremist
<candidates, but that's hardly stacking the deck. I doubt
<you could find even a significant minority of voting Nova
<Romani who would favor the idea of electing extremists to
<our magistracies. Extremists always stack the deck against
<themselves, by their very nature.

First I want to say, that I am sceptical that the new law stacks the deck,
but as far as extremists goes, it depends on what side of the street your
standing on (figuratively speaking). Since everyone has different ideas, one
person's idea of extreme is another person's idea of what is quite
acceptable.

<No Alexander the
<Great or Caesar Augustus will ever arise here.

Well, that's a shame!

< Nor will the like of King Arthur ever be able to impose by divine
<right of kingship his will on us. Personally, I like that.
<It says to me that in Nova Roma the will of the populace is
<more important than the will of any one man or woman.

I could be wrong but I thought the populace quite liked King Arthur. He
*still* has a large following today as I can attest to by the many books
written on the subject, even so far as making the path of King Arthur a
'spiritual' path. The many books by John & Caitlin Matthews spring to mind.

Vale,
Diana Moravia


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Humor, Pagans, Das Reich
From:	"Roger" <politicog@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 22:02:16 -0000

Another book that deals with this subject is Hiram Key: Pharaohs,
Freemasons, and the Discovery of the Secret Scrolls of Jesus, by
Christopher Knight and Robert Lomas. I cannot vouch for its
scholarship however, since I haven't read it yet (will probably pick
up a copy at the local library tonight). But here's the Amazon link
for those that are so inclined:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-
/1931412758/qid=1056405424/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-8380928-8303342?
v=glance&s=books

Lucius Quintius Constantius


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Citizen Sarcasm
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:15:51 -0700 (PDT)

<Sigh>,
I Suspose you are talking about the contempt I showed
to a poster yesterday.

This person jumped in with insulting language like
"baby killer" directed at myself and a large portion
of our citizens who happen to be vetrans of active
members of the US Military, posted a pack of lies that
a minor ammount of research away from sites that only
post the tripe he wannts to beleave, and flat out
refused to persue an area of research suggested by
another person.

If someone comes on this forum posting slanders about
Pagans being "Devil Worshipers", or the "Kike"
Conspiricy, or the inferoity of "Niggers", I doubt
that most of us would be expected to treat it as a
mere difference of opinion. Yet people who have served
in the United States Armed Forces are expected to
accept the worst slanders as mere difference of
opinion.

--- Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius
<mballetta@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.
> I think some people in togas are plotting against
> me.
>
> I know I'm new here but I have noticed a trend in
> many replies to
> comments.
> People seem to jump at the chance to belittle or
> condemn others point
> of view without really getting a chance to find out
> if they are
> deserving. Especially when we really don't know
> eachother well.
> I've always found it prudent to feel someone out and
> talk to them
> first to make sure and even then, if a person wishes
> to be an idiot,
> so be it, it isn't my place to tell them so but try
> to enlighten them.
>
> Beginnings are a delicate time and great allowences
> should be made
> for mutual understanding.
>
> Judging from the trend, I'm surprised anyone feels
> comfortable giving
> an opinion that doesn't go with the status quo for
> fear of being
> ridiculed or ostracised.
> I don't mind people disagreeing with me or havinfg
> different opinions
> and are willing to discuss them intelligently (as
> some of you have
> already done, thank you).
> I enjoy discussions and to have everyone agree would
> be a bore but
> some people seem so caught up in themselves that it
> becomes an
> extremely personal assault.
> I hope this is the exception and not the rule as we
> have a community
> (Nation) of people to give an extremely varied
> outlook on a number of
> issues that can make for fantastically wonderful
> conversations.
>
> Excuse the diatribe as get off my soap box.
>
>

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Citizen Sarcasm
From:	"M Flavius Aurelius" <marcus.flavius@bigpond.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 08:24:09 +1000

Drusus,

Actually, the post referred to certain equipment as "baby killer".

While I am not wishing to perpetuate this incredibly irrelevant offtopic
discussion, I do believe that the record should be accurate.

I would also suggest that posters to this list who wish to display their
superiority over other posters try learning to spell. At one stage, someone
managed to attempt to insult others on the list by calling them
"intellectuals", but their spelling of that word was appalling. I personally
reasoned that it was a humourous mis-spelling, but found later I was wrong.
There is nothing that destroys one's credibility in a debate that
demonstrating that one is illiterate.

M Flavius Aurelius

----- Original Message -----
From: "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 8:15 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Citizen Sarcasm

> <Sigh>,
> I Suspose you are talking about the contempt I showed
> to a poster yesterday.
>
> This person jumped in with insulting language like
> "baby killer" directed at myself and a large portion
> of our citizens who happen to be vetrans of active
> members of the US Military, posted a pack of lies that
> a minor ammount of research away from sites that only
> post the tripe he wannts to beleave, and flat out
> refused to persue an area of research suggested by
> another person.
>
> If someone comes on this forum posting slanders about
> Pagans being "Devil Worshipers", or the "Kike"
> Conspiricy, or the inferoity of "Niggers", I doubt
> that most of us would be expected to treat it as a
> mere difference of opinion. Yet people who have served
> in the United States Armed Forces are expected to
> accept the worst slanders as mere difference of
> opinion.
>
> --- Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius
> <mballetta@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.
> > I think some people in togas are plotting against
> > me.
> >
> > I know I'm new here but I have noticed a trend in
> > many replies to
> > comments.
> > People seem to jump at the chance to belittle or
> > condemn others point
> > of view without really getting a chance to find out
> > if they are
> > deserving. Especially when we really don't know
> > eachother well.
> > I've always found it prudent to feel someone out and
> > talk to them
> > first to make sure and even then, if a person wishes
> > to be an idiot,
> > so be it, it isn't my place to tell them so but try
> > to enlighten them.
> >
> > Beginnings are a delicate time and great allowences
> > should be made
> > for mutual understanding.
> >
> > Judging from the trend, I'm surprised anyone feels
> > comfortable giving
> > an opinion that doesn't go with the status quo for
> > fear of being
> > ridiculed or ostracised.
> > I don't mind people disagreeing with me or havinfg
> > different opinions
> > and are willing to discuss them intelligently (as
> > some of you have
> > already done, thank you).
> > I enjoy discussions and to have everyone agree would
> > be a bore but
> > some people seem so caught up in themselves that it
> > becomes an
> > extremely personal assault.
> > I hope this is the exception and not the rule as we
> > have a community
> > (Nation) of people to give an extremely varied
> > outlook on a number of
> > issues that can make for fantastically wonderful
> > conversations.
> >
> > Excuse the diatribe as get off my soap box.
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> Roman Citizen
>
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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Nova Roman citizenship
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 22:30:58 -0000

Salvete Diana and Q. Fabius,

I can't resist this one:
Some citizens wait months to hear from the inactive gens heads
anyway; so here we have a built in safety valve. I don't think they
say citizenship is too quick!

Regards,

Quintus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Diana Moravia Aventina"
<diana@p...> wrote:
> Salve Q Fabius,
>
> <Since this is all so important to us, why then do we award Roman
> citizenship
> <as if it was a cracker jack bauble?
>
> (snip)
> <This is where I have felt since day one we have failed. Nova Roma
> <citizenship is nothing. Why you can walk away and if you want
rejoin 6
> months later.
> <And this is a fairly recent law, there was a time, you could walk
away, and
> <rejoin the next day.
>
>


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Citizenship too easy
From:	M Flavius Aurelius <marcus.flavius@bigpond.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 08:35:04 +1000

What is wrong with making citizenship obtainable? What's wrong with citizens
who sign up, then find NR does not deliver what they were seeking, and so
they wander away.

If this happens, it says to me there is something lacking in Nova Roma, not
with the citizenship base....

M Flavius Aurelius


Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Election proposal
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 00:38:43 +0200

Salve A Apollonius Cordus,

<I am told that political factions exist here, and I see no reason not to
believe it. If in order to be a
<member of a faction one needs to know about it, then I am not one; if,
however, one can be in a <faction unawares, then for all I know I may be in
all of them!

The New international Webster's Student Dictionary defines 'faction' as
follows :
"A number of persons combined for a common cause; a clique."

I would very politely and very respectfully like to say that according to
the definition, the Cohors Consulis is a faction and so you are in one --not
that I think that is a bad thing at all.

big snip-sorry
< and the majority of voters will therefore always tend, in my contention,
to vote based not on
<who a given faction tells them to vote for but on the candidates'
individual policies, characters and
<records.

I am a bit sceptical about that. Humans are pack animals and we have a
tendency to feel safe in groups and to want to be socially accepted. Plus
there is the friendship issue. Someone will not be in one faction or another
unless they personally like their colleagues. So while I don't think any
faction will tell their 'members' who to vote for, I think they will have a
natural tendency to do just that.

Going back to the electoral proposal:
In reply to my comment about how I think that our election system is based
on an inactive citizen problem, I think that both you and Titus Octavius
mentioned a that the citizens who have not paid their taxes are all grouped
in one Tribe or one Century, so that could not have been the reason for the
failed elections. But before the tax deadline in April, we had either 4 or 5
run-off elections. At that time, the 'inactive' citizens were still mixed
throughout the various Tribes and had not been 'weeded' away yet. So I still
think the inactive citizens were our problem this year and that it will
hopefully be cleared up with the Census.

In any case, after reading all the emails both pro & con, I reserve the
right to be change my mind about the new Lex Fabia until we see a mock
election. A few different ideas have come up, and they are all quite
interesting (although my eyes are dead tired from reading all the emails
:-). What I would like to see-- but I don't think it is possible--is a
recalculation of the election in November using the Lex Fabia in order to
see if the winners would be the same. But then we would probably have to get
the same citizens to vote again using the new system and make sure that they
would vote the same as they did in November. Anyway, like I said I realize
that my idea is out of fantasy land, but it would put a lot of citizens
minds to rest if we could implement a mock election doing *something* like
that.

Vale,
Diana Moravia Aventina
Tribunus Plebis


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Citizen Sarcasm
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 18:43:00 EDT

In a message dated 6/23/03 12:56:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mballetta@hotmail.com writes:

> I know I'm new here but I have noticed a trend in many replies to
> comments.
> People seem to jump at the chance to belittle or condemn others point
> of view without really getting a chance to find out if they are
> deserving. Especially when we really don't know eachother well.
>

Ah, you noticed. Well, many of these people are old "friends" and have been
doing this
since NR's founding. It is one of the unique things that makes this micro
nation so Roman.

Welcome to Nova Roma.

Q. Fabius Maximus.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Citizen Sarcasm / poor spelling
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 22:50:57 -0000

> I would also suggest that posters to this list who wish to display
their
> superiority over other posters try learning to spell. At one stage,
someone
> managed to attempt to insult others on the list by calling them
> "intellectuals", but their spelling of that word was appalling. I
personally
> reasoned that it was a humourous mis-spelling, but found later I
was wrong.
> There is nothing that destroys one's credibility in a debate that
> demonstrating that one is illiterate.
>
> M Flavius Aurelius
>
Salve Marce,

I had a discussion on another club and forum a while back. In many
cases we are in and out of the forum all day while doing many other
things. Sometimes we respond in a hurry like a wham, bam thank you
m'am style before too many other new posts bury our points so we do
not always concentrate on the spelling. If this were an Ivy League
debate, a university thesis or a job resume, then many of us would
have a dictionary at our side and proof read our text at least three
times over before submission. I get no degree or wage from NR so I am
not often that extremely careful.

Finally, highly intelligent people from nuclear physicists to medical
doctors I know are the most sloppy, slovenly writers and spellers I
have met. I guess their peers call that being eccentric. Also we need
to accept new forms of shorthand coming into cyberspace. I will not
be the first to accept them but nor shall I be the last.

C U later,

respectfully,

Quintus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: The Proposed Lex Fabia de Ratione--- a Question
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 18:51:25 EDT

In a message dated 6/23/03 1:11:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
cordus@strategikon.org writes:

> Once again I can discern in your message no
> substantial arguments against the Fabian system.
>

But I wasn't making any disagreement to the system. It will work. No
question. It is not just historically enough for my and many other peoples tastes.
What I was trying to do, is express my feeling that this is just another place
we could emulate Rome, and we are not.
But, if I need to make one constructive criticism which you seem to crave, it
needs to be rewritten by one person. Right now it reads like it was written
by a committee, and badly written at that. Needs to be more elegant. More
streamlined. Less redundant.
Back to the census...

Q. Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Citizen Sarcasm / poor spelling
From:	M Flavius Aurelius <marcus.flavius@bigpond.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 08:56:59 +1000

Quintus,

There is a difference between shorthand and illiteracy :-)

As I said, I thought the mis-spelling of "intellectuals" was ironic. But was
disappointed to find it wasn't.

M Flavius Aurelius

----- Original Message -----
From: "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 8:50 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Citizen Sarcasm / poor spelling

> > I would also suggest that posters to this list who wish to display
> their
> > superiority over other posters try learning to spell. At one stage,
> someone
> > managed to attempt to insult others on the list by calling them
> > "intellectuals", but their spelling of that word was appalling. I
> personally
> > reasoned that it was a humourous mis-spelling, but found later I
> was wrong.
> > There is nothing that destroys one's credibility in a debate that
> > demonstrating that one is illiterate.
> >
> > M Flavius Aurelius
> >
> Salve Marce,
>
> I had a discussion on another club and forum a while back. In many
> cases we are in and out of the forum all day while doing many other
> things. Sometimes we respond in a hurry like a wham, bam thank you
> m'am style before too many other new posts bury our points so we do
> not always concentrate on the spelling. If this were an Ivy League
> debate, a university thesis or a job resume, then many of us would
> have a dictionary at our side and proof read our text at least three
> times over before submission. I get no degree or wage from NR so I am
> not often that extremely careful.
>
> Finally, highly intelligent people from nuclear physicists to medical
> doctors I know are the most sloppy, slovenly writers and spellers I
> have met. I guess their peers call that being eccentric. Also we need
> to accept new forms of shorthand coming into cyberspace. I will not
> be the first to accept them but nor shall I be the last.
>
> C U later,
>
> respectfully,
>
> Quintus
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Digest No 660 RE: Election proposal
From:	"Lucius Equitius" <vergil@starpower.net>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 19:04:20 -0400

Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus Quiritibus SPD

> Message: 25
> Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 00:38:43 +0200
> From: "Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
> Subject: RE: Election proposal
>
> Salve A Apollonius Cordus,

<SNIP>

> individual policies, characters and
> <records.
>
> I am a bit sceptical about that. Humans are pack animals

Hey! I resent that...

> and we have a tendency to feel safe in groups and to want to be socially
accepted.

Humm, if you are judging by the curent state of society, I'd rather be
watching "groups" from a safe distance.

> Plus there is the friendship issue...
>
> Going back to the electoral proposal:
>
> In any case, after reading all the emails both pro & con, I reserve the
> right to be change my mind about the new Lex Fabia until we see a mock
> election. A few different ideas have come up, and they are all quite
> interesting (although my eyes are dead tired from reading all the emails
> :-). What I would like to see-- but I don't think it is possible--is a
> recalculation of the election in November using the Lex Fabia in order to
> see if the winners would be the same.

That's my idea, thank you very much ;-)

... Since the cast votes will be held by the Rogatores perhaps they could
count them using various formulae. We could then use the data to see if
other methods could give clearer results. We may even be "fortunate" enough
to have to have some run-offs occur under some of the various systems and
not under others using the same vote. This could prove, to a limited degree,
that one system is better at avoiding seemingly endless runoffs. The current
system, the current proposal and the 2754 system could be tested, *as well
as other suggestions*.
Of course the "official" results will have to conform to current leges...

I then added that, "Heck, we could even have a referendum stipulating that
whichever system produced the fewest/no runoffs (clearest) result would
become the defacto election law."
Which, although was only part of my post, received a responds.
I thought it was a reasonable idea, yet it was washed away by side issues,
arguments and macronation differences of opinion.

But then we would probably have to get
> the same citizens to vote again using the new system and make sure that
they
> would vote the same as they did in November. Anyway, like I said I realize
> that my idea is out of fantasy land, but it would put a lot of citizens
> minds to rest if we could implement a mock election doing *something* like
> that.
>
> Vale,
> Diana Moravia Aventina
> Tribunus Plebis

AS for me, I say again, "Then again, if you all just have to make changes
now, have at it.
If it were up to me I'd vote to return to the system that worked rather than
reinventing the wheel... again."

Valete Omnibus


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Citizen Sarcasm / poor spelling
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 16:02:32 -0700 (PDT)

Some people value content, others are more shallow and
can't see past style.

"I Have no respect for a man who can only spell a word
one way"
Mark Twain

--- M Flavius Aurelius <marcus.flavius@bigpond.com>
wrote:
> Quintus,
>
> There is a difference between shorthand and
> illiteracy :-)
>
> As I said, I thought the mis-spelling of
> "intellectuals" was ironic. But was
> disappointed to find it wasn't.
>
> M Flavius Aurelius
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)"
> <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
> To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 8:50 AM
> Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Citizen Sarcasm / poor
> spelling
>
>
> > > I would also suggest that posters to this list
> who wish to display
> > their
> > > superiority over other posters try learning to
> spell. At one stage,
> > someone
> > > managed to attempt to insult others on the list
> by calling them
> > > "intellectuals", but their spelling of that word
> was appalling. I
> > personally
> > > reasoned that it was a humourous mis-spelling,
> but found later I
> > was wrong.
> > > There is nothing that destroys one's credibility
> in a debate that
> > > demonstrating that one is illiterate.
> > >
> > > M Flavius Aurelius
> > >
> > Salve Marce,
> >
> > I had a discussion on another club and forum a
> while back. In many
> > cases we are in and out of the forum all day while
> doing many other
> > things. Sometimes we respond in a hurry like a
> wham, bam thank you
> > m'am style before too many other new posts bury
> our points so we do
> > not always concentrate on the spelling. If this
> were an Ivy League
> > debate, a university thesis or a job resume, then
> many of us would
> > have a dictionary at our side and proof read our
> text at least three
> > times over before submission. I get no degree or
> wage from NR so I am
> > not often that extremely careful.
> >
> > Finally, highly intelligent people from nuclear
> physicists to medical
> > doctors I know are the most sloppy, slovenly
> writers and spellers I
> > have met. I guess their peers call that being
> eccentric. Also we need
> > to accept new forms of shorthand coming into
> cyberspace. I will not
> > be the first to accept them but nor shall I be the
> last.
> >
> > C U later,
> >
> > respectfully,
> >
> > Quintus
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Nova Roman citizenship
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 19:07:02 EDT

In a message dated 6/23/03 3:34:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjk@datanet.ab.ca writes:

> Some citizens wait months to hear from the inactive gens heads
> anyway; so here we have a built in safety valve. I don't think they
> say citizenship is too quick!
>

LOL! Very good point. Maybe this is something we should repair?

Fabius

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Citizenship too easy
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 19:07:47 EDT

In a message dated 6/23/03 3:38:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
marcus.flavius@bigpond.com writes:

> If this happens, it says to me there is something lacking in Nova Roma, not
> with the citizenship base....

Me also...

Fabius

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Re: Citizen Sarcasm
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 01:19:23 +0200

Salve Marcus Ambrosius Belisarius,

> Judging from the trend, I'm surprised anyone feels comfortable
<giving an opinion that doesn't go with the status quo for fear of being
> ridiculed or ostracised.

Nah, don't worry about it. That's how we have fun here ;-)
Very often, I am also uncomfortable giving an opinion, but I do anyway. I
admit my opinions don't always come out as graceful as I'd like, which may
cause someone replying to feel a bit uncomfortable in return :-p Personal
meetings are so much easier!

I am sure that we are *nothing* as compared to the bickering that went on in
ancient Rome, so when things get tough, at least we get that much closer
:-))) I often wonder which ones of us (if any) would survive in the
political arena of ancient Rome.... <Diana starts daydreaming>

Anyway, welcome to Nova Roma! I don't know if you've had the chance to meet
her, but your Materfamilias, Merlinia Ambrosia is a real sweetie. I was
lucky to have her as my roommate at the Roman Days. Besides that I would
have probably not even gone if it weren't for her giving me a lift from New
Jersey to Maryland.

And my friend Quintus Lanius Paulinus said:

< We have all taken some flak once and a while on this list.
And given it--let's be honest now!

<3) Let me remind you of the words of my old friend Oscar Wilde; " The
<only thing more horrible than being talked about is NOT BEING TALKED
<ABOUT AT ALL!!!!"

So true! Who wants to be a wallflower anyway?

Vale,
Diana Moravia


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Flavius Vedius sends his greetings.
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 19:22:55 EDT

Q. Fabius Maximus SPD.

Salvete

Flavius Vedius Germanicus sends his greetings to all his former colleagues in
the government and his fellow Senators.

Speaking from his self imposed exile in some remote region, he believes that
his was the best
election system. (What a surprise!) But in all seriousness he thinks that
Iunius suggestions
may have merit, and should be looked into. He also believes that once the
system forces a run-off, it should be resolved immediately, not drawn out over
an additional nine day period.
That, in his estimation, would avoid some of the paralysis we have
experienced.

He continues to hope for the Republic's well being.

Valete

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Citizen Sarcasm / poor spelling
From:	"rory12001" <rory12001@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 23:10:50 -0000

This is Nova Roma; the home of Cicero, Ovid, Lucretius!
Citizens I will hang myself upon my palla if we cannot pick up
our stylii and write with verve and literacy.
Vale,
Urania Calidia Antonina

In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@y...>
wrote:
> Some people value content, others are more shallow and
> can't see past style.
>
> "I Have no respect for a man who can only spell a word
> one way"
> Mark Twain
>
> --- M Flavius Aurelius <marcus.flavius@b...>
> wrote:
> > Quintus,
> >
> > There is a difference between shorthand and
> > illiteracy :-)
> >
> > As I said, I thought the mis-spelling of
> > "intellectuals" was ironic. But was
> > disappointed to find it wasn't.
> >
> > M Flavius Aurelius
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)"
> > <mjk@d...>
> > To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 8:50 AM
> > Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Citizen Sarcasm / poor
> > spelling
> >
> >
> > > > I would also suggest that posters to this list
> > who wish to display
> > > their
> > > > superiority over other posters try learning to
> > spell. At one stage,
> > > someone
> > > > managed to attempt to insult others on the list
> > by calling them
> > > > "intellectuals", but their spelling of that word
> > was appalling. I
> > > personally
> > > > reasoned that it was a humourous mis-spelling,
> > but found later I
> > > was wrong.
> > > > There is nothing that destroys one's credibility
> > in a debate that
> > > > demonstrating that one is illiterate.
> > > >
> > > > M Flavius Aurelius
> > > >
> > > Salve Marce,
> > >
> > > I had a discussion on another club and forum a
> > while back. In many
> > > cases we are in and out of the forum all day while
> > doing many other
> > > things. Sometimes we respond in a hurry like a
> > wham, bam thank you
> > > m'am style before too many other new posts bury
> > our points so we do
> > > not always concentrate on the spelling. If this
> > were an Ivy League
> > > debate, a university thesis or a job resume, then
> > many of us would
> > > have a dictionary at our side and proof read our
> > text at least three
> > > times over before submission. I get no degree or
> > wage from NR so I am
> > > not often that extremely careful.
> > >
> > > Finally, highly intelligent people from nuclear
> > physicists to medical
> > > doctors I know are the most sloppy, slovenly
> > writers and spellers I
> > > have met. I guess their peers call that being
> > eccentric. Also we need
> > > to accept new forms of shorthand coming into
> > cyberspace. I will not
> > > be the first to accept them but nor shall I be the
> > last.
> > >
> > > C U later,
> > >
> > > respectfully,
> > >
> > > Quintus
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> Roman Citizen
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> http://sbc.yahoo.com


Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Digest No 660 RE: Election proposal
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 01:40:26 +0200

Salve Lucius Equitius,

I'm obviously just hitting here at 1:30 am just answering emails as they
come in :-)

<> I am a bit sceptical about that. Humans are pack animals

<Hey! I resent that...
Well I meant to say 'everyone in the human race besides Lucius Equitius is a
bit like a pack animal (ok I'm obviously stammering and just trying to talk
my way out of that one :-)

Re my great idea of
DMA: <<a <recalculation of the election in November using the Lex Fabia in
order to
> <see if the winners would be the same.

LUCA <That's my idea, thank you very much ;-)
Oops sorry about that !

<Van: Lucius Equitius
<Verzonden: zondag 22 juni 2003 2:48
<Onderwerp: [Nova-Roma] Digest No 652 Re: Election Laws

<Since the cast votes will be held by the
<Rogatores perhaps they could count them using various formulae. We could
<then use the data to see if other methods could give clearer results.

I read the above a little while ago but didn't realize that like me, you
wanted the Rogatores to go back to the last election and recount the votes.

<I then added that, "Heck, we could even have a referendum stipulating that
<whichever system produced the fewest/no runoffs (clearest) result would
<become the defacto election law."
That sounds reasonable to me and should to everyone else as well, since we
all want to get a workable & working system in place. Since you posted the
above, we have had a third idea from G. Iulius Scaurus, adding to the first
2 of the Lex Fabia & L Sicinius Drusus proposing that we go back to
pre-2754. Now that everyone has their thinking caps on, the only way to see
which is best is to test which system is best.

Vale,
Diana Moravia


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] The Best of Roma
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 16:43:41 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete Quirites,

"The Best of Roma". That phrase has likely caused more
contention in the Res Publica than any other. It seems
that for some there is very little "Best" in Roma,
about the only practice of Antiquita that I haven't
heard someone or another denounce as "Unfair" and not
the Best of Roma is Latin Names.

The phrase is actually a paraphrase of a line in the
Preamble of the Constitution. The full phrase is "We
hereby declare our Nation to stand as a beacon for
those who would recreate the best of ancient Rome."
Hardly a call to toss out large portions of our
culture because of the views of a few modern social
planners.

This sentence isn't the only one in the Preamble. The
entire preamble reads

" We, the Senate and People of Nova Roma, as an
independent and sovereign nation, herewith set forth
this Constitution as the foundation and structure of
our governing institutions and common society. We
hereby declare our Nation to stand as a beacon for
those who would recreate the best of ancient Rome. As
a nation, Nova Roma shall be the temporal homeland and
worldly focus for the Religio Romana. The primary
functions of Nova Roma shall be to promote the study
and practice of pagan Roman civilization, defined as
the period from the founding of the City of Rome in
753 BCE to the removal of the altar of Victory from
the Senate in 394 CE and encompassing such fields as
religion, culture, politics, art, literature,
language, and philosophy.

As the spiritual heir to the ancient Roman Republic
and Empire, Nova Roma shall endeavor to exist, in all
manners practical and acceptable, as the modern
restoration of the ancient Roman Republic. The
culture, religion, and society of Nova Roma shall be
patterned upon those of ancient Rome."

We now have two proposals for a method of voting in
the Comitia Centuriata. The Julian proposal is clearly
the more historic of the two, and therefore the one
that meets the mandate stated in the last paragraph of
the Preamble, provided that it is practical. On the
surface it seems to meet that qualification, however
we would have to test it to make sure.

If the Julian proposal works in a mock election, then
we shoul;d follow the Constutional Mandate and enact
this more historic method of voting.

=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Flavius Vedius sends his greetings.
From:	"M Flavius Aurelius" <marcus.flavius@bigpond.com>
Date:	Tue, 24 Jun 2003 09:45:54 +1000

If Germanicus wishes the Republic all the best, why is he in exile?

M Flavius Aurelius

----- Original Message -----
From: <qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 9:22 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Flavius Vedius sends his greetings.

> Q. Fabius Maximus SPD.
>
> Salvete
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus sends his greetings to all his former colleagues
in
> the government and his fellow Senators.
>
> Speaking from his self imposed exile in some remote region, he believes
that
> his was the best
> election system. (What a surprise!) But in all seriousness he thinks
that
> Iunius suggestions
> may have merit, and should be looked into. He also believes that once the
> system forces a run-off, it should be resolved immediately, not drawn out
over
> an additional nine day period.
> That, in his estimation, would avoid some of the paralysis we have
> experienced.
>
> He continues to hope for the Republic's well being.
>
> Valete
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Citizenship too easy
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 23:48:32 -0000

Salve Proconsul Fabi Quinte,

It is sad to see people become citizens and then soon disappear. In
our gens we have only 5 people but we try to keep in touch and chat
off and on where possible. I know the Roman interests of the people
in our gens so when I see their articles of interest like mosaics of
Roman Britain to Pompeii, I always take a second to highlight and
email them the articles. As you see our paterfamilias keeps not just
me but all of the NR list up to date on programs concerning Rome.
This keeps interest going in our gens. Once and a while our people
temporarily diasppear to take care of life's problems but they're
never too far away. A hello once a month does wonders.

I have not held office in NR yet but I just want to mention a few
suggestions. My wife and I have run the Mexican Cultural Association
in our city. What I want to talk about is human nature. We have had
up to a few hundred people in our club. There are perhaps 400 Mexican
people in our city. More often than not there are only about 5 of us
that do all the work and work like dogs we often do; often much the
coming help conveniently opts out at the last minue with excuses from
the sick baby to my mother's sister's daughters nice's aunt died in
Guadaljara and our family is in grief this week! You have to keep in
touch with people, always have some event or action going, babysit
and stimulate them. Many just want the fiestas and have little other
interests in so far as art, culture and history goes and especially
as well as helping. Still we cannot get frustrated or mad with them
because they are our source of income
and reason for continuing. Now though NR is mostly confined to the
web for now, do you think we may be in a similar situation with quite
a few of our 1500 citizens? Do you think we should open other venues
like the old bread and circus to attract their interests more
of our 1500 citizens? Over the next few days I'll try and dream up
some ideas; even the gesture of taking the trouble to put your
pictures of the reunion last week has inspired me to go looking for
Roman outfits; especially military.

Regards,

Quintus Lanius Paulinus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, qfabiusmaxmi@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 6/23/03 3:38:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> marcus.flavius@b... writes:
>
>
> > If this happens, it says to me there is something lacking in Nova
Roma, not
> > with the citizenship base....
>
> Me also...
>
> Fabius
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Citizen Sarcasm / poor spelling
From:	"Quintus Lanius Paulinus (Michael Kelly)" <mjk@datanet.ab.ca>
Date:	Mon, 23 Jun 2003 23:57:35 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "rory12001" <rory12001@y...> wrote:
> This is Nova Roma; the home of Cicero, Ovid, Lucretius!
> Citizens I will hang myself upon my palla if we cannot pick up
> our stylii and write with verve and literacy.
> Vale,
> Urania Calidia Antonina
>
>ROFLOL,

Salve Urania,

How can I argue with that point Urania? These articulate gentlemen
were Rome and I forgot I would give my right arm to achieve their
level of literacy. Quintus concedes to you on this point!

All the best!