Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Digest Number 569 - Debt Humiliation
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Sat, 3 May 2003 21:11:43 EDT

F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to The Great Green Bean. Salve.

Mea saurus, mea saurus, mea maxima saurus. [Translation: I am a lizard, I am
a lizard, I am an enormous lizard.] Vale


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Digest Number 569 - Debt Humiliation
From:	"Gregory Rose" <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Sun, 04 May 2003 01:46:54 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus F. Galerio Aureliano Secundo salutem dicit.

Salve, F. Galeri Aureliani.

> Mea saurus, mea saurus, mea maxima saurus. [Translation: I am a
lizard, I am
> a lizard, I am an enormous lizard.] Vale

No. No. No. Sauros is Greek... And the possessive pronoun doesn't
agree with the noun... But you don't need a possessive pronoun... You
need a verb... Lucertus sum, lucertus sum, lucertus maximus sum...
That's better.

Vale.

G. Iulius Scaurus
(Who clearly has seen "The Life of Brian" too many times... recalling
that there is actually a fellow with the agnomen "Bigodikos" noted on
a Greek epigraph from Cappodocia)

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] To Quintus Cassius Calvus: CATO DID PAY
From:	"a_cato2002" <a.cato@sympatico.ca>
Date:	Sun, 04 May 2003 02:53:48 -0000

Salve Q.C. Calvus et Salvete Omnes:

As a matter of fact, Propraetor et Senator
Appius Tullius Cato did pay before the deadline. Not only for
himself, but also for his two underage sons who don't have to pay.
The Fedex envelope was received and signed for on the 29th of April.
Quintus Cassius Calvus, I believe that you jumped the gun in
posting his name as not having paid, and not deserving of his
positions as a result. An apology on the same list as his name
appeared as being delinquent in his payment would be very
appropriate.

Bene valete et Pax Deorum, Appius Tullius Cato
Senator et Propraetor

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Q. Cassius Calvus' Reply
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Sun, 04 May 2003 04:58:39 -0000

Salvete Omnes,

Senator Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato has requested a public apology
from myself. But I will not apologize just to the Honorable Senator.

I misunderstood the meaning of what constituted the deadline in
Consul T Labienus Fortunatus' Taxation Edictum which lead me to the
wrong conclusion when I saw Senator Appius Tullis Marcellus Cato as
well as others still being listed as Assidui 2002.

Senator Appius Tullis Marcellus Cato, F. Galerius Aurelianus
Secundus, and Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura have publically stated they
have paid their taxes. I take them at their word of honor as
gentleman and Romans and believe them when they say that they paid
their taxes on time. For publically posting what I've have since
learned was erroneous information, I do offer my apologies for any
and all public embarrassment and personal discomfort this has caused
each of them.

To any others on the originally posted list who find themselves in
the same situation as having paid their taxes on time please let me
know so that I can apologize to you by name as well. If you have
already stated it publically but I have missed it call it to my
attention for you deserve an apology by name as well.

Valete,

Q. Cassius Calvus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Augustan Studies
From:	"Gregory Rose" <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Sun, 04 May 2003 05:55:51 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus S.P.D.

Avete, Quirites.

Here's a link to Eric Kondratief's "Resources for Augustan Studies":

http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~ekondrat/Augustus.html

The site includes text from the Res Gestae Divi Augusti, late
republican and early imperial sources on Augustus, ancient literary
references to Augustus, a historiographic essay, and links to
websites dealing with Augustus. Kondratieff is a Ph.D. candidate at
the Univ. of Penn.

Valete, Quirites.

G. Iulius Scaurus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] To Q. Cassius Calvus from A. T. Cato
From:	"a_cato2002" <a.cato@sympatico.ca>
Date:	Sun, 04 May 2003 08:40:55 -0000

Salve Quinte Cassi:

Being human, we all make mistakes. But it is a true
gentleman, or gentlewoman, who readily admits their mistake and
apologizes. In my opinion, you are an honorable gentleman and Roman,
and I readily accept your apology. I believe you would not have
posted what you posted unless you were sure, (even if mistakenly),
that you were right. I have made similar unfortunate mistakes myself
in the past, and understand how it can happen. I have already gotten
over the temporary, minor embarrassment.
Rest easy, fellow Nova Roman.

Bene vale et Pax Deorum,
Appius Tullius Cato

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Gens Moravia
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Sun, 4 May 2003 12:23:45 +0200

Salve Calvus,

You make some good points. For the record, I never cared if I were the
Materfamilias or not. I only wanted to get back into my original Gens and
have my name back. I've been using Diana Moravia Aventina within quite a few
pagan groups since 1999 and I didn't want 2 Roman names.

<According to the Album Civium your current citizenship dates from 6-
<25-2002. Now the real question is did you formally renounce your
<original citizenship that dates back to Sept 1999? If the answer is
<yes then the logic that was applied (if indeed that is the case) is
<completely illogical. If the answer is no then you should have never
<been removed from Gens Moravia in the first place.

There was no record at all of my previous citizenship on the current
database. Later my old citizenship was found on an ancient version. I have
no idea whether I officially resigned or not. My mid term memory is
non-existent as a result of a +106° fever that nearly killed me back in
1981. I expect to remember whether I resigned or not within a few years
:-p).

Let's assume the worst case scenario and that I did resign officially. How
do we fix this problem and make me 'legal' ? Honestly, every few months it
comes up that I shouldn't be the Materfamilias and I always have the same
response as above: that I don't care whether I am a Materfamilias or not.
And since I have become a elected magistrate since then, I certainly do not
want to be above the law.

At this point, I think that many citizens have Paterfamilias who is missing
in action. Quintus Lanius Paulinus is not at all the only person who thinks
this problem needs to be fixed! New citizens apply to a Gens and then their
application sits there rotting since there is no paterfamilias to approve
it. When I became materfamilias I found 2 applications (plus my own) that
had been sitting there for more than a year. I emailed the applicants and of
course got no response. This I understandable-- they probably got disgusted
with NR and lost interest. A census would fix this problem, and also (I'm
assuming) make me a 'legal' materfamilias or in the least, give Gens Moravia
a paterfamilias whose legality is not questioned.

<I'm sure I can send you a longer list of people who have me on a list
<that begins with the letter "s."
(snip!)

Then that must be 's' for 'schoon' or 'Schön' which means beautiful in Dutch
and German respectively ;-)

Vale!
Diana Moravia



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Digest Number 562
From:	Caius Curius Saturninus <c.curius@welho.com>
Date:	Sun, 4 May 2003 13:25:22 +0300

Salvete,

Thank you all for answering my question about recommend books about
Roman economic history, it is always nice to see the experts giving
their reasoning about strenghts and weaknesses of different works.

Valete,


>Message: 8
> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 07:24:57 -0000
> From: "Gregory Rose" <gfr@intcon.net>
>Subject: Re: Roman Economic History, need help
>
>G. Iulius Scaurus C. Curio Saturnino salutem dicit.
>
>Salve, C. Curi.
>
>> I hope someone could help me out to find a book. I need a good basic
>> book about Roman economic history in English. The book should be
>> general in nature and dealing with long timespan. It does need to be
>> long, even 400 pages is enough. Is there any standard basic work in
> > the field?
>
>This is a more difficult question to answer than it might seem.
>A.H.M. Jones' _The Roman Economy: Studies in Ancient Economic and
>Administrative History_ is good, but not exhaustive (Jones tends to
>deal more with the literary than the archaeological evidence) and M.I.
>Rostovtzeff's _The Social and Economic History of the Roman Empire_ is
>classic and massive, but out-of-date and deals only with the imperial
>period. Jones also has a good general introduction to Roman economic
>history in his two volumes on the later empire, but the bulk of the
>chapter deals only with the late antique and Byzantine economy.
>Richard Duncan-Jones has two excellent monographs, _The Economy of the
>Roman Empire: Quantitative Studies_ and _Structure and Scale in the
>Roman Economy_, but they're not comprehensive. Kevin Greene's _The
>Archaeology of the Roman Economy_ is excellent, but doesn't deal much
>with the literary evidence. Neville Morley's _Metropolis and
>hinterland : the city of Rome and the Italian economy, 200 B.C.-A.D.
>200_ is very interesting, but limited to the Italian economy, and C.R.
>Whittaker's _Land, City, and Trade in the Roman Empire_ isn't really
>a comprehensive survey. There's also the problem that a great deal of
>the better work on Roman economic history is written in German,
>Italian, and French, but not translated into English. Perhaps a
>combination of Jones and Greene would meet your need? I wish I could
>be more helpful.
>
>Vale.
>
>G. Iulius Scaurus


--

Caius Curius Saturninus

Accensus Superior Primus (Ductor Cohortis) Cohors Consulis CFQ
Legatus Regionis Finnicae
Procurator Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova
Praeses et Triumvir Academia Thules ad Studia Romana Antiqua et Nova

e-mail: c.curius@welho.com
www.insulaumbra.com/regiofinnica
www.insulaumbra.com/academiathules
gsm: +358-50-3315279
fax: +358-9-8754751

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Gens (was Gens Moravia)
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
Date:	Sun, 4 May 2003 06:44:18 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete,

Section II D 3 of Nova Roma's Constitution states

"Each gens shall, through whatever means it may
determine appropriate, have a paterfamilias (fem.
materfamilias) who shall act as the leader of the gens
and speak for it when necessary. The holder of this
position must be registered as such with the censors.
The paterfamilias may, at his or her discretion, expel
members of their gens, or accept new members into it."

Note the sentance "The holder of this position must be
registered as such with the censors."

I Have mantained that establishing rules regulating
thr registration of Paterfamilis is a power that the
Censors allready hold, though some past Censors have
disagreed on this point.

A Lex requiring an anual regestration of Paterfamilis
would be fairly easy to cary out. Just a requirement
that each Paterfamilis respond to an email from the
Censors asking if thier Gens has had a change of
Paterfamilis. Gens who's Pater failed to respond could
then be listed on this Forum so that Gens members
could then come forward to notify the Censors who the
present Pater is. If a Gens had no active members the
Censors could be empowered to act In Loco Parentis to
approve a new applicant and appoint him as the Gen's
Paterfamilis.

An Anual regestration would eliminate inactive Paters
in the years we don't have a Census.


--- Diana Moravia Aventina <diana@pandora.be> wrote:
> Salve Calvus,
>
> You make some good points. For the record, I never
> cared if I were the
> Materfamilias or not. I only wanted to get back into
> my original Gens and
> have my name back. I've been using Diana Moravia
> Aventina within quite a few
> pagan groups since 1999 and I didn't want 2 Roman
> names.
>
> <According to the Album Civium your current
> citizenship dates from 6-
> <25-2002. Now the real question is did you formally
> renounce your
> <original citizenship that dates back to Sept 1999?
> If the answer is
> <yes then the logic that was applied (if indeed that
> is the case) is
> <completely illogical. If the answer is no then you
> should have never
> <been removed from Gens Moravia in the first place.
>
> There was no record at all of my previous
> citizenship on the current
> database. Later my old citizenship was found on an
> ancient version. I have
> no idea whether I officially resigned or not. My mid
> term memory is
> non-existent as a result of a +106° fever that
> nearly killed me back in
> 1981. I expect to remember whether I resigned or not
> within a few years
> :-p).
>
> Let's assume the worst case scenario and that I did
> resign officially. How
> do we fix this problem and make me 'legal' ?
> Honestly, every few months it
> comes up that I shouldn't be the Materfamilias and I
> always have the same
> response as above: that I don't care whether I am a
> Materfamilias or not.
> And since I have become a elected magistrate since
> then, I certainly do not
> want to be above the law.
>
> At this point, I think that many citizens have
> Paterfamilias who is missing
> in action. Quintus Lanius Paulinus is not at all the
> only person who thinks
> this problem needs to be fixed! New citizens apply
> to a Gens and then their
> application sits there rotting since there is no
> paterfamilias to approve
> it. When I became materfamilias I found 2
> applications (plus my own) that
> had been sitting there for more than a year. I
> emailed the applicants and of
> course got no response. This I understandable--
> they probably got disgusted
> with NR and lost interest. A census would fix this
> problem, and also (I'm
> assuming) make me a 'legal' materfamilias or in the
> least, give Gens Moravia
> a paterfamilias whose legality is not questioned.
>
> <I'm sure I can send you a longer list of people who
> have me on a list
> <that begins with the letter "s."
> (snip!)
>
> Then that must be 's' for 'schoon' or 'Schön' which
> means beautiful in Dutch
> and German respectively ;-)
>
> Vale!
> Diana Moravia
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>


=====
L. Sicinius Drusus

Roman Citizen

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Digest Number 569 - Debt Humiliation
From:	labienus@novaroma.org
Date:	Sun, 4 May 2003 09:47:46 US/Central

Salve Quinte Cassi omnesque

> Yes he may act on behalf, such as to get you readmitted to Gens
> Moravia. No where in the Edict does specifically it give the Praetor
> the authority to oust the absent Pater/Materfamilias, merely act in
> his or her absence.

And the praetor did no such thing. As I understand it, the entirety of the
active members of Gens Moravia removed him, and the censores approved of it and
noted the change. This was all quite legal.

> Why not then apply the Edict so Julilla Sempronia Magna (sorry Julilla
> Sempronia Magna, not dragging you into this just remembered a ML
> conversation we had back in the Nov-Dec time frame about being stuck in
> a closed Gens with an absent Pater) isn't languishing in a closed Gens
> with an absent Pater?

If she needs her pater to do something for her, then she must take the
initiative to contact the praetores herself. If she and any other gentiles
Sempronii wish to replace their paterfamilias, they must determine to do so
amongst themselves and convince the censores that it is a proper course of
action.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Gens (was Gens Moravia)
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Sun, 4 May 2003 09:08:31 -0700

Ave!

We have a yearly registration. I promulgated it last year:

It is the Lex Cornelia de Tabulius Gentium Novaromanarum Agendis. Here is
the link: http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2002-02-27-i.html

This will resolve the issue of Paters/Maters registering with the Censors
office.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 6:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Gens (was Gens Moravia)


> Salvete,
>
> Section II D 3 of Nova Roma's Constitution states
>
> "Each gens shall, through whatever means it may
> determine appropriate, have a paterfamilias (fem.
> materfamilias) who shall act as the leader of the gens
> and speak for it when necessary. The holder of this
> position must be registered as such with the censors.
> The paterfamilias may, at his or her discretion, expel
> members of their gens, or accept new members into it."
>
> Note the sentance "The holder of this position must be
> registered as such with the censors."
>
> I Have mantained that establishing rules regulating
> thr registration of Paterfamilis is a power that the
> Censors allready hold, though some past Censors have
> disagreed on this point.
>
> A Lex requiring an anual regestration of Paterfamilis
> would be fairly easy to cary out. Just a requirement
> that each Paterfamilis respond to an email from the
> Censors asking if thier Gens has had a change of
> Paterfamilis. Gens who's Pater failed to respond could
> then be listed on this Forum so that Gens members
> could then come forward to notify the Censors who the
> present Pater is. If a Gens had no active members the
> Censors could be empowered to act In Loco Parentis to
> approve a new applicant and appoint him as the Gen's
> Paterfamilis.
>
> An Anual regestration would eliminate inactive Paters
> in the years we don't have a Census.
>
>
> --- Diana Moravia Aventina <diana@pandora.be> wrote:
> > Salve Calvus,
> >
> > You make some good points. For the record, I never
> > cared if I were the
> > Materfamilias or not. I only wanted to get back into
> > my original Gens and
> > have my name back. I've been using Diana Moravia
> > Aventina within quite a few
> > pagan groups since 1999 and I didn't want 2 Roman
> > names.
> >
> > <According to the Album Civium your current
> > citizenship dates from 6-
> > <25-2002. Now the real question is did you formally
> > renounce your
> > <original citizenship that dates back to Sept 1999?
> > If the answer is
> > <yes then the logic that was applied (if indeed that
> > is the case) is
> > <completely illogical. If the answer is no then you
> > should have never
> > <been removed from Gens Moravia in the first place.
> >
> > There was no record at all of my previous
> > citizenship on the current
> > database. Later my old citizenship was found on an
> > ancient version. I have
> > no idea whether I officially resigned or not. My mid
> > term memory is
> > non-existent as a result of a +106° fever that
> > nearly killed me back in
> > 1981. I expect to remember whether I resigned or not
> > within a few years
> > :-p).
> >
> > Let's assume the worst case scenario and that I did
> > resign officially. How
> > do we fix this problem and make me 'legal' ?
> > Honestly, every few months it
> > comes up that I shouldn't be the Materfamilias and I
> > always have the same
> > response as above: that I don't care whether I am a
> > Materfamilias or not.
> > And since I have become a elected magistrate since
> > then, I certainly do not
> > want to be above the law.
> >
> > At this point, I think that many citizens have
> > Paterfamilias who is missing
> > in action. Quintus Lanius Paulinus is not at all the
> > only person who thinks
> > this problem needs to be fixed! New citizens apply
> > to a Gens and then their
> > application sits there rotting since there is no
> > paterfamilias to approve
> > it. When I became materfamilias I found 2
> > applications (plus my own) that
> > had been sitting there for more than a year. I
> > emailed the applicants and of
> > course got no response. This I understandable--
> > they probably got disgusted
> > with NR and lost interest. A census would fix this
> > problem, and also (I'm
> > assuming) make me a 'legal' materfamilias or in the
> > least, give Gens Moravia
> > a paterfamilias whose legality is not questioned.
> >
> > <I'm sure I can send you a longer list of people who
> > have me on a list
> > <that begins with the letter "s."
> > (snip!)
> >
> > Then that must be 's' for 'schoon' or 'Schön' which
> > means beautiful in Dutch
> > and German respectively ;-)
> >
> > Vale!
> > Diana Moravia
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > removed]
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
> Roman Citizen
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
> http://search.yahoo.com
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] EDICTUM CENSORIS: Gens Registration
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@konoko.net>
Date:	Sun, 4 May 2003 11:11:56 -0500 (CDT)

ante diem IV Non. Maias MMDCCLVI a.u.c.

By this edict, I open the annual Gens Registration period, as
required in the Lex Cornelia de Tabulis Gentium Novaromanarum Agendis
(http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2002-02-27-i.html).

Any Paterfamilias or Materfamilias who intends to remain in the
position of Paterfamilias or Materfamilias of his or her gens
must indicate this by registering the gens with the Censores,
before July 1st 2003.

The registration is a simply an acknowledgement that you are active
and wish to continue as Paterfamilias/Materfamilias. It takes only
a few seconds and costs nothing.

The quickest and most reliable method of registering is to do so
yourself on the NovaRoma.org website. You may do so at this address:

http://www.novaroma.org/bin/editgens?cmd=register

You'll be asked for your Roman Name or Citizen ID number, and password.
After entering these, you'll either see a page indicating that registration
is complete, or a list of activities that you may now perform (which
incluces "Register your gens as active").

If you have difficulty logging in, you may instead register your gens
by mailing "censores@novaroma.org" (include a statement that this is
a gens registration, give your full Roman name, and your Gens name).
Be warned that email is sometimes lost, and the Censores may not be able
to do the registration immediately; therefore it is best to use the
website method if possible.

Although the two electronic methods are preferred, you may instead send a
written statement of intent to remain as Paterfamilias to:
Nova Roma, P.O. Box 1897, Wells, ME 04090.

At the end of the registration period, all gentes that have NOT been
registered will be closed - no new members will be admitted - and the
unresponsive Paterfamilias removed; the remaining gens members, if any,
will be asked to elect a new Paterfamilias.

To avoid this, register your gens today.

Valete,
M. Octavius Germanicus, Censor.


--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus,
Censor, Consular, Citizen.
http://konoko.net/~haase/

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] EDICTUM CENSORIS: Gens Registration
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Sun, 4 May 2003 09:14:39 -0700

Ave!

I have already registered. It took 3 seconds.

Vale,

Sulla
----- Original Message -----
From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Cc: novaroma-announce@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 9:11 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] EDICTUM CENSORIS: Gens Registration



ante diem IV Non. Maias MMDCCLVI a.u.c.

By this edict, I open the annual Gens Registration period, as
required in the Lex Cornelia de Tabulis Gentium Novaromanarum Agendis
(http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2002-02-27-i.html).

Any Paterfamilias or Materfamilias who intends to remain in the
position of Paterfamilias or Materfamilias of his or her gens
must indicate this by registering the gens with the Censores,
before July 1st 2003.

The registration is a simply an acknowledgement that you are active
and wish to continue as Paterfamilias/Materfamilias. It takes only
a few seconds and costs nothing.

The quickest and most reliable method of registering is to do so
yourself on the NovaRoma.org website. You may do so at this address:

http://www.novaroma.org/bin/editgens?cmd=register

You'll be asked for your Roman Name or Citizen ID number, and password.
After entering these, you'll either see a page indicating that registration
is complete, or a list of activities that you may now perform (which
incluces "Register your gens as active").

If you have difficulty logging in, you may instead register your gens
by mailing "censores@novaroma.org" (include a statement that this is
a gens registration, give your full Roman name, and your Gens name).
Be warned that email is sometimes lost, and the Censores may not be able
to do the registration immediately; therefore it is best to use the
website method if possible.

Although the two electronic methods are preferred, you may instead send a
written statement of intent to remain as Paterfamilias to:
Nova Roma, P.O. Box 1897, Wells, ME 04090.

At the end of the registration period, all gentes that have NOT been
registered will be closed - no new members will be admitted - and the
unresponsive Paterfamilias removed; the remaining gens members, if any,
will be asked to elect a new Paterfamilias.

To avoid this, register your gens today.

Valete,
M. Octavius Germanicus, Censor.


--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus,
Censor, Consular, Citizen.
http://konoko.net/~haase/

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Digest Number 569 - Debt Humiliation
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Sun, 04 May 2003 16:53:02 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, labienus@n... wrote:
> Salve Quinte Cassi omnesque
>
> > Yes he may act on behalf, such as to get you readmitted to Gens
> > Moravia. No where in the Edict does specifically it give the
Praetor
> > the authority to oust the absent Pater/Materfamilias, merely act
in
> > his or her absence.
>
> And the praetor did no such thing. As I understand it, the
entirety of the
> active members of Gens Moravia removed him, and the censores
approved of it and
> noted the change. This was all quite legal.

Calvus:
Let's first restore the context here with a quote from
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/message/10108

"...to (then) Praetor Titus Labienus
Fortunatus who then acted in his place according to the EDICTUM
PRAETORICIUM
of August 7 2755 :Praetores May Act on Behalf of Absent
Patresfamilias.I
could be wrong, but I believe the logic was that since my original
citizenship was from Sept 1999 and L Moravius from Dec 17 2000,
removing him
as Paterfamilias and making me Materfamilias was correcting an
error." -- Diana Moravia Aventina

That is not the impression that I (nor do I believe any reasonable
person could) get from Diana Moravia's statement on the subject.
>From her statement one gets the impression that her not just her
readmittance to Gens Moravia (a very good and quite legal thing in
itself) but the subsequent removal of the then Pater was done
entirely under the guise of your Edictum under your Praetorship.

As for the active members of Gens Moravia petitioning the Censors to
remove their inactive Pater and their acting upon it, I am unable to
find an edict to that effect in the Tabularium. The only Edict to be
found on the matter is your summons
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/edicts/praetor-2002-08-16.html to
L Moravius. No other Edict on the matter can be found. So I'm sure
you can see where the public record leaves an impression that things
weren't all on the up and up in this matter.

It may very well be that the active members of Gens Moravia did
petition the Censors for L. Moravius removal, but there is no record
of that petition because of a simple clerical error. If so then the
records need to be amended to reflect that. I think that such an act
would be legal under the Constitution II.D. "Gentes. Families and
clans being the backbone of Roman society, the prerogatives and
responsibilities of the family are of primary importance to Nova
Roma. Except where specifically dealt with in this constitution and
the law, >>>each gens shall have the right to determine its own
course of action,<<< and parents shall have the undisputed right and
responsibility to see to the education and raising of their
children."

Now this really opens a huge can of worms. A bunch of disgruntled
members of a gens with an active mater/pater could petition for the
removal of an active pater/mater as well. I think that you can see
that this is a potential recipe for gens chaos.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: To Q. Cassius Calvus from A. T. Cato
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Sun, 04 May 2003 16:53:57 -0000

Thank you.

Q. Cassius Calvus


--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "a_cato2002" <a.cato@s...> wrote:
>
> Salve Quinte Cassi:
>
> Being human, we all make mistakes. But it is a true
> gentleman, or gentlewoman, who readily admits their mistake and
> apologizes. In my opinion, you are an honorable gentleman and
Roman,
> and I readily accept your apology. I believe you would not have
> posted what you posted unless you were sure, (even if mistakenly),
> that you were right. I have made similar unfortunate mistakes
myself
> in the past, and understand how it can happen. I have already
gotten
> over the temporary, minor embarrassment.
> Rest easy, fellow Nova Roman.
>
> Bene vale et Pax Deorum,
> Appius Tullius Cato

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Voting Has Begun
From:	"gaiuspopilliuslaenas" <ksterne@bellsouth.net>
Date:	Sun, 04 May 2003 17:23:14 -0000

Salvete Fellow Plebians,

The FINAL election for the FINAL Tribune spot has begun. Why not
head over to:

http://www.novaroma.org/cursus_honorum/voting/index.html

and vote right now?


And remember:

"Laenas is no minus....Vote Gaius Popillius Laenas for Tribune"


>>This message paid for by the Committee to Elect Gaius Popillius
Laenas Tribune; Gaius Popillius Laenas, Chairman<<

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Voting twice
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Sun, 4 May 2003 13:30:54 -0400

Salve Rogators of NR

I vote just now but I think I may have cast twos vote please check and count at least the first vote. Sorry for the mistake.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Digest Number 569 - Debt Humiliation
From:	labienus@novaroma.org
Date:	Sun, 4 May 2003 12:53:44 US/Central

Salvete iterum Quinte Cassi omnesque

> Calvus:
> "...to (then) Praetor Titus Labienus
> Fortunatus who then acted in his place...
> ...removing him as Paterfamilias and making me Materfamilias
> was correcting an error." -- Diana Moravia Aventina

Diana Moravia was mistaken. I took no action whatsoever, official or
otherwise, to remove L Moravius from his position as paterfamilias. I did not
even suggest such a thing to the censores. The only things I did were to
inform the censores that I was approving Diana Apollonia's application to Gens
Moravia on behalf of L Moravius, and to agree with L Equitius (who was one of
the censores at the time) that L Moravius could overturn any act I took on his
behalf as he saw fit. The *censores* approved and enacted her change of gens,
as only the censores have the authority to maintain the Album Civium.

As I said, *as I understand it*, the censores then approved the request of the
active members of Gens Moravia to replace their paterfamilias. I do not know
what actually occurred beyond my own, rather limited, involvement. Note again
that the praetores do not have the authority to maintain the Album Gentium or
the Album Civium.

> That is not the impression that I (nor do I believe any reasonable
> person could) get from Diana Moravia's statement on the subject.

I agree. I cannot help it if she believes that I had more of a hand in the
matter than was actually the case.

> The only Edict to be found on the matter is your summons
> http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/edicts/praetor-2002-08-16.html to
> L Moravius.

Note that while that announcement is listed in the edicta section of the
Tabularium, I never considered it to be an edictum as the constitution defines
the term. It was neither a statement of policy nor an enactment of law. It
was simply a summons.

> No other Edict on the matter can be found. So I'm sure
> you can see where the public record leaves an impression that things
> weren't all on the up and up in this matter.

Yes, I can. I'm quite aware of how easily one sees conspiracy and shady
dealings in one's government, especially in the medium in which Nova Roma
currently exists.

As it is, I don't believe the censores ever issued an edictum replacing L
Moravius as Paterfamilias Moravii. They are not required to do so. If L
Moravius ever chooses to, he may invoke his right of provocatio against the
censores of the time for removing him. He may do the same against me if he
objects to Diana's presence in his gens (though that's rather unthinkable).

> Now this really opens a huge can of worms. A bunch of disgruntled
> members of a gens with an active mater/pater could petition for the
> removal of an active pater/mater as well. I think that you can see
> that this is a potential recipe for gens chaos.

The gens in question would likely already be in trouble. If a majority of the
gentiles feel that their paterfamilias is inadequate for some reason, perhaps
he ought to be replaced. And, the censores are not bound to accept the request
to remove a paterfamilias if they feel that it is not proper to do so.

Valete
T Labienus Fortunatus

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Gens Lania
From:	"gaius117" <lanius117@aol.com>
Date:	Sun, 04 May 2003 18:08:30 -0000

Salvete, cousins of Gens Lania

Your pater has just registered our gens for this year. I take pride
in knowing that all members of Gens Lania have paid their taxes for
this year. I encourage all of you to vote in the current election
going on now. Let your voice be heard!

Valete, humbly

Gaius Lanius Falco
***********************
Paterfamilias Gens Lania

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] New file uploaded to Nova-Roma
From:	Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Date:	4 May 2003 18:10:21 -0000

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the Nova-Roma
group.

File : /Eagle Roman Britain website article Mar 2003.doc
Uploaded by : gaius117 <lanius117@aol.com>
Description : Roman Britain Online

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nova-Roma/files/Eagle%20Roman%20Britain%20website%20article%20Mar%202003.doc

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

gaius117 <lanius117@aol.com>

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Roman Britain Online article in March "Eagle"
From:	"gaius117" <lanius117@aol.com>
Date:	Sun, 04 May 2003 18:17:54 -0000

Salvete, omnes

For those of you who do not yet subscribe to our newsletter, The
Eagle, I have just placed in the Files section of Nova-Roma the
article "Roman Britain Online", which was in the March issue. This
is a compilation of about 65 websites pertaining to Roman Britain.

I hope you enjoy scanning some of the sites and find some useful
information.

Valete,

Gaius Lanius Falco
***********************
Acting Praefectus Sodalitas Egressus Provincia Britannia
Scriba Curatoris Differum

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Voting twice
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Sun, 04 May 2003 18:22:50 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
wrote:
> Salve Rogators of NR
>
> I vote just now but I think I may have cast twos vote please check
and count at least the first vote. Sorry for the mistake.
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Salve Tiberius Galerius Paulinus,

The first vote is always counted and any subsequent votes are
considered void. Rest assured your first vote is and will be counted
as valid.

Q. Cassius Calvus
Rogator

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting twice
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Sun, 4 May 2003 14:27:20 -0400

Salve and thanks

Tiberius


----- Original Message -----
From: "quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
To: <Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 2:22 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Voting twice


> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@m...>
> wrote:
> > Salve Rogators of NR
> >
> > I vote just now but I think I may have cast twos vote please check
> and count at least the first vote. Sorry for the mistake.
> >
> > Vale
> >
> > Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> Salve Tiberius Galerius Paulinus,
>
> The first vote is always counted and any subsequent votes are
> considered void. Rest assured your first vote is and will be counted
> as valid.
>
> Q. Cassius Calvus
> Rogator
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] A Rhetorical Study of Virgil's Aeneid as Popular Entertainment and Political Propaganda
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Sun, 4 May 2003 15:03:40 -0400

This was send to me for inclusion in the Eagle

A Rhetorical Study of Virgil's Aeneid as Popular Entertainment and Political Propaganda

I have the authors MACRO name but not his NR name Please e-mail your

Nova Roman name when you have a minute thanks.


BTW GREAT article!

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Curator Differum
Fortuna Favet Fortibus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] A Rhetorical Study of Virgil's Aeneid as Popular Entertainment and Political Propaganda
From:	ames0826@cs.com
Date:	Sun, 04 May 2003 15:17:58 -0400

Ave, Tiberius Galerius Paulinus:

I am Lucius Aeneas Apollonius Nauta, a.k.a. Anthony Ames. Glad you liked the article!

Vale


"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com> wrote:

> This was send to me for inclusion in the Eagle
>
>A Rhetorical Study of Virgil's Aeneid as Popular Entertainment and Political Propaganda
>
>I have the authors MACRO name but not his NR name Please e-mail your
>
>Nova Roman name when you have a minute thanks.
>
>
>BTW GREAT article!
>
>Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>Curator Differum
>Fortuna Favet Fortibus
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>    *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor*
>
>    
>    
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Nova-Roma-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Voting twice
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 4 May 2003 15:34:56 EDT

In a message dated 5/4/03 10:32:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, spqr753@msn.com
writes:


> Salve Rogators of NR
>
> I vote just now but I think I may have cast twos vote please check and
> count at least the first vote. Sorry for the mistake.
>
> Vale
>
> Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
>

If you cast two votes, they invalidated each other. Wait until the Rogators
post the mistake,
then revote.

Q. Fabius Maximus


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] EDICTUM CENSORIS: Gens Registration
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 4 May 2003 15:46:26 EDT

In a message dated 5/4/03 9:12:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time, haase@konoko.net
writes:


> The quickest and most reliable method of registering is to do so
> yourself on the NovaRoma.org website. You may do so at this address:
>
> http://www.novaroma.org/bin/editgens?cmd=register
>
>

Salvete.

I encourage all Paterfamiliae to do this, it takes three seconds, and greatly
aids the Censores in their work.

Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus.
Paterfamilias Fabi


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Voting twice
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Sun, 04 May 2003 20:38:15 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, qfabiusmaxmi@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 5/4/03 10:32:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
spqr753@m...
> writes:
>
>
> > Salve Rogators of NR
> >
> > I vote just now but I think I may have cast twos vote please
check and
> > count at least the first vote. Sorry for the mistake.
> >
> > Vale
> >
> > Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
> >
>
> If you cast two votes, they invalidated each other. Wait until the
Rogators
> post the mistake,
> then revote.
>
> Q. Fabius Maximus

Salve,

That is incorrect honorable Senator. According to the LEX SALICIA DE
SVFFRAGIIS IN COMITIA PLEBIS TRIBVTA to be found at
http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/2002-11-26-
i.html "....Once cast, no vote may be altered, even with the
correct voter identification code. Should multiple votes be
registered with the same voter identification code, only the first
one recorded shall be used when tallying the vote."

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus
Rogator

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] EDICTUM CENSORIS: Gens Registration
From:	me-in-@disguise.co.uk
Date:	Sun, 4 May 2003 21:03:56 +0100 (BST)

-----Original Message-----
>From : qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date : 04 May 2003 20:46:26
Subject : Re: [Nova-Roma] EDICTUM CENSORIS: Gens Registration
>
>I encourage all Paterfamiliae to do this, it takes three seconds, and greatly

Patresfamilias surely? Familias is an ancient genitive.

Caesariensis.

"Oh, go away and think for yourselves!".
"Master, tell us how to go away and think for ourselves". - 'Life of Brian'.



--
Personalised email by http://another.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] "Houston we have a problem...."
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Sun, 04 May 2003 20:56:00 -0000

Salvete Omnes,

I am currently having a problem with my email. I am unable to
receive mail from my provider's server though it seems I am able to
send, but I am not sure of that.

If anyone I sent email today other than through Yahoo please let me
know if you received it.

If the problem is not fixed in 24 hours so I can receive the ballots
I will forward to the censors an alternate email address and ask my
fellow Rogators to send the ballots I have missed to that address as
well.

Valete,

Q. Cassius Calvus

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] EDICTUM CENSORIS: Gens Registration
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Sun, 4 May 2003 17:28:14 EDT

In a message dated 5/4/03 1:52:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
me-in-@disguise.co.uk writes:


> Familias is an ancient genitive.
>
>

Correct. However in Latin Paterfamilas referred to collective males. I was
being politically correct. I usually don't do that.

Fabius


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Digest Number 569 - Debt Humiliation
From:	"Gregory Rose" <gfr@intcon.net>
Date:	Sun, 04 May 2003 22:15:17 -0000

G. Iulius Scaurus Q. Cassio Calvo salutem dicit.

Salve, Q. Cassi.

In the process of indexing the body of NR law as a praetorian scriba I
have discovered that the lists of edicta and decreta in the Tabularium
are not exhaustive. There are edicta and decreta to which there is
allusion in other legal documents, but no listed text, and links to
text which do not work (and on this evidence I cannot rule out the
possibility that there have been edicta to which there is no extant
allusion in other texts and which are unlisted in the Tabularium, but
neither can I confirm it). I would not rely on absence from the
Tabularium as evidence that no edictum existed if an officeholder
claimed otherwise. Once the indexing of all the extant texts in the
Tabularium is complete I shall review the main list archives for any
legal texts which have been posted there but not preserved in the
Tabularium, index them, and present the texts of such cases to Gn.
Salix Astur for inclusion in the Tabularium. In any enterprise as
expansive as the body of NR law and in we are dependent on volunteer
labour oversight of entry is to be expected occasionally.

Vale.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Scriba in cohorte Praetoris Gn. Salicis Asturis

Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Digest Number 569 - Debt Humiliation
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Sun, 4 May 2003 16:12:49 -0700

Ave G. Iulius,

You might want to cc your correspondence to Praetor Decius Iunius as he has been in Nova Roma since the day it started and he would probably have a much more thorough archieve.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: Gregory Rose
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 3:15 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Re: Digest Number 569 - Debt Humiliation


G. Iulius Scaurus Q. Cassio Calvo salutem dicit.

Salve, Q. Cassi.

In the process of indexing the body of NR law as a praetorian scriba I
have discovered that the lists of edicta and decreta in the Tabularium
are not exhaustive. There are edicta and decreta to which there is
allusion in other legal documents, but no listed text, and links to
text which do not work (and on this evidence I cannot rule out the
possibility that there have been edicta to which there is no extant
allusion in other texts and which are unlisted in the Tabularium, but
neither can I confirm it). I would not rely on absence from the
Tabularium as evidence that no edictum existed if an officeholder
claimed otherwise. Once the indexing of all the extant texts in the
Tabularium is complete I shall review the main list archives for any
legal texts which have been posted there but not preserved in the
Tabularium, index them, and present the texts of such cases to Gn.
Salix Astur for inclusion in the Tabularium. In any enterprise as
expansive as the body of NR law and in we are dependent on volunteer
labour oversight of entry is to be expected occasionally.

Vale.

G. Iulius Scaurus
Scriba in cohorte Praetoris Gn. Salicis Asturis