| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Re: Indo-European Languages-Response |
| From: |
"Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@yahoo.es>" <salixastur@yahoo.es> |
| Date: |
Sat, 15 Feb 2003 00:05:22 -0000 |
|
Salvete Quirites.
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@a... wrote:
> Actually, one must consider that the number of reasons why mankind
> spread out from the Olduvai Gorge (or Eden) are as numerous as the
> people involved. Why did early man move out of Africa with the
> plentiful game to arid regions like the Sahara or Arabian
> Penisula? Why did the neolithic hunters move so far north or
> east? Was it just to follow the herds or were there other
> reasons?
I would say that increases in population, climate changes and a
subsequent need for new gathering/hunting territories can explain
most primitive migrations.
As for the Sahara and Saudi Arabia, bear in mind that the climate has
changed over the years. The Sahara was a savana 10,000 years ago;
when the last glaciation receded, it became a desert. There is a
wonderful chapter on this subject on Toynbee's work.
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| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Indo-European Languages-Response |
| From: |
Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br> |
| Date: |
14 Feb 2003 22:24:34 -0200 |
|
Em Sex, 2003-02-14 às 21:26, me-in-@disguise.co.uk escreveu:
> -----Original Message-----
> From : Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>
> >
> >Yes and the Mycenean culture was a greek one, Crete we don't know since
> >Linear A is not deciphered.
> >
> I believe that A has been deciphered as logographic so that in effect you get the same thing written twice, as if FoWo DoLa 4$.
> A very good explanation by a German minerologist is that there was no 'Minoan'bull culture but that Knossos etc are ossuaries. The reason a minerologist came to this conclusion is that he found it strange that all the royal 'baths'had no plumbing and were made of water-soluble gypsum. Further investigation revealed all sorts of discrepancies: the royal apartments of Knossos are 5 floors down (entrance is at the top of a hill) so must have been as gloomy as the grave. If they were the grave, not surprising! Then again, the 'maze' is understandable since spooks are not very bright and more than keeping anyone out it is to keep them in. The 'kitchens'are in places entirely unsuitable for transporting food and contain storage jars it is impossible to get into but all quite represented in later Egyptian necropoleis. Furthermore it is on Egyptian record that when they first started to embalm mummies instead of just leaving them to dry in the desert, it is to Crete that they sent for embalmers.
> The 'tribute lists' are therefore shown to be funeral or annual gifts to the dead and donations to consult them. They are written in Linear B Greek for practicality and in A logographs for the gods/dead, Heaven being invariably old-fashioned, whether it's the Vatican's Latin or Vedic chant 3,000 years on.
> Some of the frescoes show this (where Arthur Evans has not 'restored'them to the latest Art Nouveau!) while the marine theme of so many more is always associated with death. Dolphins/Porpoises are the souls of dead sailors - everybody knows that. As for the bull-leaping, well the opinion of a professional torero is that it shows some poor girl being gored and if it led to bull-fighting, took a few centuries later to do it.
> The same source suggests that the great pyre Achilles builds in Trojan War is not to cremate Patroklos but to smoke-cure him into human ham. That way he can be shipped home for burial in state.
> As for the culture, in classical times it was the only Polis similar to but less extreme than Sparta, which may mean that there was some truth in a previous matriarchal system, there being evidence for this (Helen especially) in Sparta. In such a system, all the men get to do is kicked out into barracks to fight. On Crete they would have had the sea as well but note as for Minoan-Mykenaian, Crete is listed with the Akhaiwoi against Troy, not on the Trojan side some believe 'Minoans' would have been.
>
Sparte and Creta and most of the peloponnese are dorian polis in the
classical age. Mycenean (from Knossos and from Pylos they are the same)
is closely related to arcado-chyprian, a little less close to Ionian.
The Dorian invasion/migration seems to date from the dark ages
(The heraclides legend). There is no continuity in soil occupation
between Myceneans and Dorians.
There is total continuity in Cyprus and Lefkandi, probably in Athens.
None in Asia Minor(Troya/Illion) which was reoccupied by ionians also
during the Dark Ages.
For Linear A: there is a good idea of its structure: Logografic yes. But
no transliteration of it and no clear idea of the language which was
written through it.
Probably not an IE language, but even this is not sure.
With respect ot the Indo_europeans they seem to have arrived to
continental Greece around 2000BC, to Crete around 1350 (If we
consider that the change from Minoan to Mycenean culture reflects this).
The Dorians seem to be a second wawe that arrived around 900BC.
Manius Villius Limitanus
--
Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>
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| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Black Griffon Inn |
| From: |
Joanne Shaver <merlinia@comcast.net> |
| Date: |
Fri, 14 Feb 2003 20:07:08 -0500 |
|
Salvete,All! Merlinia, head cook, here!
Well, tomorrow is the DAY!
Try to remember to bring pieces of Ivy, if you have it, to wear & to share;
If you have a picnic bench or II that you can bring, Please do, to
enhance the place (romans sat on a lot of benches)
I hope we are still going to try to use the Picnic tables & benches
from outside; I'll bring a dustbrush to remove any little snow we might
get (Thanks, Elissa!). We will need Bodies to help get them inside.
(too bad we couldn't get in tonight)
I am much better, but I will need help getting food & things into the
kitchen, so, anyone who wishes, 10 am would be a great time to get there.
Valete! See you all tomorrow!
-M.
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| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] new group called the Roman Scribes |
| From: |
"biojournalism <biojournalism@hotmail.com>" <biojournalism@hotmail.com> |
| Date: |
Sat, 15 Feb 2003 02:10:41 -0000 |
|
New Group for fiction writers whose works are set in ancient Rome:
Description Category: Historical Fiction
A discussion group for authors and the artists who illustrate their
works of novels, plays, stories, and poetry related to or set in
Ancient Rome and similar ancient cultures. Includes all genres
including time-travel, historical, and audio plays. Also includes
POD published and self-published as well as any other type of
published authors or those who want to be, of novels, stories,
plays, skits, scripts, and poetry set in ancient Rome and in those
lands involved in ancient Roman history.
Description Category: Historical Fiction
A discussion group for authors and the artists who illustrate their
works of novels, plays, stories, and poetry related to or set in
Ancient Rome and similar ancient cultures. Includes all genres
including time-travel, historical, and audio plays. Also includes
POD published and self-published as well as any other type of
published authors or those who want to be, of novels, stories,
plays, skits, scripts, and poetry set in ancient Rome and in those
lands involved in ancient Roman history.
Post message: RomanScribes@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe: RomanScribes-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe: RomanScribes-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner: RomanScribes-owner@yahoogroups.com
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| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Here's why Sanskrit is precursor of all Indo European Languages |
| From: |
"biojournalism <biojournalism@hotmail.com>" <biojournalism@hotmail.com> |
| Date: |
Sat, 15 Feb 2003 02:19:55 -0000 |
|
When mitochondrial Eve's descendants left Africa 60,000 years ago
for good (after a failed attempt 120,000 years ago where the people
starved during an Ice Age in the deserts of Jordan when the water
dried up and the land salted over,)the new Ice Age in East Africa
near Djibouti, left the land devoid of food about 60,000 years ago.
Therefore, the people took the southern route to Yemen and then onto
India, settling there, while another branch continued on to SE Asia
and Australia.
That particular Ice age, one of many, was over by 44,000 years ago,
when a route finally opened to the fertile crescent from India. The
proto-Sanskrit-speaking peoples went west and settled there. By
43,000 years ago another group branched out to Europe, while a group
that finally made it to Lebanon went north and settled Greece. From
there, the branches in Europe went to Spain and France, and by the
end of that Ice Age from 25,000-12,500 BCE, spread all over Europe.
By that time proto-Sanskrit evolved into Latin, Greek, Tocharian,
Hittite, Armenian, Hurrian, Lithuanian, Germanic, etc....in its
proto form before finally evolving into Latin perhaps just before
the Bronze age.
When you look at the DNA, India populated Europe, and by 15,000
years ago, there was no more or only a few people leaving India
again for Europe. The traffic began in the opposite direction. This
is why you find Indian-specific DNA all over Europe (U2 haplogroup
mtDNA and X)from Scandinavia to India. Language often but not always
follows genes, except in the case of Hungary and Turkey where the
oldest genes remain the same as they were in the Bronze age.
Vale,
Octavia Fabia Scriba
http://dnanovels.tripod.com/novels.html
(books on DNA and genetics/genealogy)
or
http://reminisciencemedia.tripod.com
(Novels and Stories of Ancient Rome)
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| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Are there any Nova Roma groups that meet in Sacramento? |
| From: |
"biojournalism <biojournalism@hotmail.com>" <biojournalism@hotmail.com> |
| Date: |
Sat, 15 Feb 2003 04:05:03 -0000 |
|
Just wondering whether there are any Nova Roma groups that meet in
Sacramento? In any case, I may have a radio play/audio Internet
play/skit available set in ancient Rome that anyone can use free
anytime for fund raising purposes, etc. I'll post where it can be
downloaded when it becomes available. It would be suitable also for
teachers who have history projects for the Jr and Sr high school
students.
Octavia
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| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Re: Quo Vadis? |
| From: |
"deciusiunius <bcatfd@together.net>" <bcatfd@together.net> |
| Date: |
Sat, 15 Feb 2003 05:40:50 -0000 |
|
Salve Sexte Apolloni,
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Sextus Apollonius Scipio
<scipio_apollonius@y...> wrote:
> My point of view is that we should first of all gain some
>recognition from the macroworld.
> Without it, we are in no position to ask for more taxes or even to
>hope for any donation. Recognition is the main goal of the platform
>of Honored Consul Caeso Fabius Quintilianus.
I have read the ideas on the Consul's website. It is a reversal of
priorities, or as the expression in English goes, putting the cart
before the horse. Why should the Macroworld recognize us? It stands
to reason that we cannot receive recognition until we have done
something on our own worth recognizing. How are we to receive
macronational recognition or be taken seriously when only a fraction
of our stated members bother to remain active? Out of our stated 1773
citizens, at most 300 are active if we look at tax payment or voting.
Until we can give members a reason to pay their taxes and be active,
looking for macronational recognition is a dream and a distraction.
We must concentrate on developing the provinces and encouraging
participation on the local level. From what I understand, the Consul
is working on a plan to encourage the development of local groups. I
support this and look forward to hearing more about it.
Vale,
Decius Iunius Palladius
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| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quo Vadis? |
| From: |
"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com> |
| Date: |
Sat, 15 Feb 2003 00:43:31 -0500 |
|
Well said Decius Iunius Palladius
Vale
Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
I have read the ideas on the Consul's website. It is a reversal of
priorities, or as the expression in English goes, putting the cart
before the horse. Why should the Macroworld recognize us? It stands
to reason that we cannot receive recognition until we have done
something on our own worth recognizing. How are we to receive
macronational recognition or be taken seriously when only a fraction
of our stated members bother to remain active? Out of our stated 1773
citizens, at most 300 are active if we look at tax payment or voting.
Until we can give members a reason to pay their taxes and be active,
looking for macronational recognition is a dream and a distraction.
We must concentrate on developing the provinces and encouraging
participation on the local level. From what I understand, the Consul
is working on a plan to encourage the development of local groups. I
support this and look forward to hearing more about it.
Vale,
Decius Iunius Palladius
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Re: 1773 citizens |
| From: |
"Julilla Sempronia Magna <curatrix@villaivlilla.com>" <curatrix@villaivlilla.com> |
| Date: |
Sat, 15 Feb 2003 06:00:10 -0000 |
|
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "Lucius Equitius" <vergil@s...>
scripsit:
<snipped>
>
> BTW I missed offering my congratulations to Julillia Sempronia et
Gnaeus Equitius on their appointments as Propraetores.
> I was very pleased that they chose to take up the positions and
even more so to vote for them. I've met Gnaeus and found him to be
the embodiment of Roman virtue. I am proud to have him as a gens mate.
> Julillia, I've yet to meet in person, but from all contact,
official and unofficial, she is a wonderful person who I very much
look forward to meeting. She was always very helpful to me, as
Censor, in my work last year. I'm happy to have had the opportunity
to work with her.
>
> Ave Gn Equitius!
> Ave Julillia Sempronia!
>
Et gratias plurimas amicus meus! Praise from good men is praise
indeed! I look forward to the day we can all meet face-to-face. In
the mean time, I suppose Gnaeus and I had better get to work!
In amicitia,
Julilla Sempronia Magna
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| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quo Vadis? |
| From: |
Sextus Apollonius Scipio <scipio_apollonius@yahoo.com> |
| Date: |
Sat, 15 Feb 2003 02:11:40 -0800 (PST) |
|
Salve Decius Iunius Palladius,
this is exactly what has been proposed. We need to do something in order to get
recognition. It could be of course at the Provincial level and/or it could be at the
Nation level. We need to get known if we want to fulfill our goals.
Vale,
Sextus Apollonius Scipio
> I have read the ideas on the Consul's website. It is a reversal of
> priorities, or as the expression in English goes, putting the cart
> before the horse. Why should the Macroworld recognize us? It stands
> to reason that we cannot receive recognition until we have done
> something on our own worth recognizing. How are we to receive
> macronational recognition or be taken seriously when only a fraction
> of our stated members bother to remain active? Out of our stated 1773
> citizens, at most 300 are active if we look at tax payment or voting.
> Until we can give members a reason to pay their taxes and be active,
> looking for macronational recognition is a dream and a distraction.
>
> We must concentrate on developing the provinces and encouraging
> participation on the local level. From what I understand, the Consul
> is working on a plan to encourage the development of local groups. I
> support this and look forward to hearing more about it.
__________________________________________________
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| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quo Vadis? |
| From: |
Sextus Apollonius Scipio <scipio_apollonius@yahoo.com> |
| Date: |
Sat, 15 Feb 2003 02:22:52 -0800 (PST) |
|
Salve L. Sicinius Drusus,
> Certain political parties in Macronations are
> exonerating SOME of thier citizens from Income taxes
> to foster class based voting that will place the
> entire tax burden on other citizens who will pay for
> benifts recived by the non tax payers. I See no reason
> to introduce 21st century style class warfare into
> Nova Roma.
This is true but this point is not the main one I was talking about.
> Our tax is a head tax, not an income tax. Each citizen
> from a given Macronation pays an equal tax regardless
> of his income. I Have no objection to a Roman style
> tax where the first class has a higher tax to go with
> thier increased voting powers.
It is my beleif that there should be an adequation between the tax we ask to our citizens
and the services we give them back in return. So far, I think the amount is appropriate.
Vale,
Sextus Apollonius Scipio
Consular Quaestor
__________________________________________________
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| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Apollonia Acta -- Roman News and Archeology |
| From: |
Sextus Apollonius Scipio <scipio_apollonius@yahoo.com> |
| Date: |
Sat, 15 Feb 2003 03:24:37 -0800 (PST) |
|
Salvete Omnes,
please find the latest Roman news at:
http://www.fr-novaroma.com/Archeology/
with especially some incredible chariots found in Thrace.
Valete,
Sextus Apollonius Scipio
Propraetor Galliae
__________________________________________________
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| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Here's why Sanskrit is precursor of all Indo |
| From: |
Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br> |
| Date: |
15 Feb 2003 10:02:24 -0200 |
|
Em Sáb, 2003-02-15 às 00:19, biojournalism escreveu:
> When mitochondrial Eve's descendants left Africa 60,000 years ago
> for good (after a failed attempt 120,000 years ago where the people
> starved during an Ice Age in the deserts of Jordan when the water
> dried up and the land salted over,)the new Ice Age in East Africa
> near Djibouti, left the land devoid of food about 60,000 years ago.
> Therefore, the people took the southern route to Yemen and then onto
> India, settling there, while another branch continued on to SE Asia
> and Australia.
>
> That particular Ice age, one of many, was over by 44,000 years ago,
> when a route finally opened to the fertile crescent from India. The
> proto-Sanskrit-speaking peoples went west and settled there. By
> 43,000 years ago another group branched out to Europe, while a group
> that finally made it to Lebanon went north and settled Greece. From
> there, the branches in Europe went to Spain and France, and by the
> end of that Ice Age from 25,000-12,500 BCE, spread all over Europe.
> By that time proto-Sanskrit evolved into Latin, Greek, Tocharian,
> Hittite, Armenian, Hurrian, Lithuanian, Germanic, etc....in its
> proto form before finally evolving into Latin perhaps just before
> the Bronze age.
>
> When you look at the DNA, India populated Europe, and by 15,000
> years ago, there was no more or only a few people leaving India
> again for Europe. The traffic began in the opposite direction. This
> is why you find Indian-specific DNA all over Europe (U2 haplogroup
> mtDNA and X)from Scandinavia to India. Language often but not always
> follows genes, except in the case of Hungary and Turkey where the
> oldest genes remain the same as they were in the Bronze age.
>
You mean mitochondrial DNA, I suppose. Fascinating and thanks for the
links.
But this does not mean that the languages followed those peoples.
The Migrations/mixination showed by mtDNA are definitively real,
but languages are cultural events.
For example very, very little mtDNA has accompanied the wide spread of
french and english through Africa in the 19th century :).
Much more african mtDNA has been incorporated in the spanish and
portuguese "white" people in Latin America.
(For those who don't know it: mtDNA is not mixed in reproduction and
stays very stable, it is transmitted only by the mother).
We really need to separate language, population and religion. Look at
the last 5 centuries in Europe/America/Africa.
There was a large population transfer from Europe to Northern America,
a much smaller to southern America.
There was a large population transfer from Africa to all of America
and a reasonable one to Europe.
But there was a nearly total transfer of indo-european languages to
America and to Africa.
All this was acompanied with a near to total transfer of a semitic
religion to those continents (specially America).
The timescale in prehistory was certainly very different but the effects
could be the same with respect of the differentiation
lnaguage/population/culture.
Vale
Manius Villius Limitanus
--
Michel Loos <loos@qt1.iq.usp.br>
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| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] A Formação da Cidade |
| From: |
=?iso-8859-1?q?Lucius=20Arminius=20Faustus?= <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br> |
| Date: |
Sat, 15 Feb 2003 09:27:36 -0300 (ART) |
|
Salvete, quirites,
I´ve written this small paper about Ancient Religio of the City-State and Plebs on the brazilian list, and I will post here on hope it can be useful to someone undestanding Portuguese as well.
Cap. III - A Formação da cidade
Vamos ouvir o que diz Coulanges:
"Antiga crença ordenava aos homens que honrasse os antepassados; o culto dos antepassados agrupou a família ao redor do altar. Daí a primeira religião, as primeiras orações, a primeira concepção do dever e a primeira moral; daí também a instituição da sociedade , a fixação de ordem de sucessão e, enfim, todo o direito privado e todos os estatutos da organização doméstica. Depois esta crença progrediu e, ao mesmo tempo, ampliou-se associação. Os homens, a medida que sentem que há para eles divindades comuns, vão se associando em grupos cada vez maiores. As mesmas regras, descobertas e aplicadas às famílias, são aplicadas sucessivamente a fratia, a tribo à cidade.
De inicio, a família vive isolada e o homem só conhece os deuses domésticos, theoi patroi, dii gentiles. Acima da família forma-se a fatria, com seu deus, theos phratrios, Juno curialis. A seguir temos a tribo, e o deus da tribo, theos phylios. Chegas-se enfim a cidade e concebe-se um deus cuja providencia abrange a cidade inteira, theos polieus, penates publici. Hierarquia de crenças, hierarquia de associações. A concepção religiosa entre os antigos foi a moldadora da sociedade. "
Estudando a historia da formação de Atenas, este caminho da unificação das tribos fica mais claro. No inicio, a Península Atica estava dividida por Famílias (ver Plutarco, a Vida de Teseu). Dentre as famílias, temos os Eumolpidas, Crecopidas, Gefirenses, Fitálidas, Laquíadas. Cada uma destas gentes vivia em seu ´cantão´ da península com seus deuses particulares, em suas associações, fatrias e tribos. Os Eumolpidas, em Elêuses, adoravam Demeter, os Crecópidas na Acrópole adoravam Atena e Poseidon. E cada pedaço da península tinha seus deuses curiais e tribais: em Maratona adorava-se Hercules, em Prásias Apolo, em Filas um outro Apolo diferente, os Dioscuros em Cefalonia.
Mas a associação religiosa foi tomando corpo: quatro burgos da planície de Maratona uniram-se para adorar Apolo Delfiniano. No Pireu, Falera e locais vizinhos começou um culto comum de adoração a Hercules. As associações (não aglutinações, já que o culto doméstico permanecia independente) deixaram a Ática com doze tribos, doze associações diferentes e nem sempre pacificas entre si, cada uma com seu deus protetor, seu altar, seu fogo sagrado e seu chefe.
Cabe fazermos uma comparação entre este feudalismo antigo com o medieval. Na Antiguidade, essa divisão era religiosa, o que gerava a divisão política. Na Idade Média, com o pensamento religioso mais avançado, apesar da virtual independência dos feudos, deviam obediência a uma autoridade central, e a concepção religiosa estava unificada pelo cristianismo e pela presença ´internacional´ da Igreja Cristã.
A mitologia nos da unificação da Ática pelo lendário rei Teseu. Teseu era um Cecrópida, família esta que tornou-se consideravelmente poderosa na Ática depois de muitas lutas e conquistas contra os Eumólpidas de Elêusis. Teseu unificou o culto da Atica forçando os cantões submetidos a adorarem a Atena Polias do cantão dos Cecropidas (Acrópole). Dai surgiram os sacrifícios comuns das Panateneias e a formação da cidade de Atenas. Antes de Teseu cada burgo tinha seu altar e pritaneu (fogo sagrado) mas Teseu quis que o pritaneu de Atenas (Acrópole) fosse o centro religioso de toda Atica. Isso unificou a península em torno de Atenas, ao mesmo tempo que cada cantão permanecia com seu culto fatrial/tribal primitivo, estava ligado ao culto da cidade. De fato, Elêusis e os Eumolpidas se submeteram aos Cecropidas da Acropolis, mas esta só foi conseguida com a condição de que o sacerdócio de Demeter continuaria sempre na família. Semelhante ´manutenção´ de um culto na família se manifesta em Roma também, como por exemplo no culto de Vênus pela família Júlia.
Em Roma não foi diferente. Um dos primeiros cuidados de Rômulo foi a divisão da cidade em tribos. Provavelmente estas tribos já existiam entre os migrantes fundadores que vieram de Alba Longa, os patrícios. Alba vinha por sua vez de Lavínio, que descendia dos povos arborígenes governados pelo Rei Latino e os troianos, portanto temos na população fundadora de Roma no Palatino uma organização de gens/curia/tribo já bem consagrada e desenvolvida, e de seus líderes formou-se provavelmente o primeiro Senado. A presença de cúrias e tribos já na fundação de Roma é ressaltada pelas lendas da cidade de Jano no Janiculo e Saturno no Capitólio, bem como a cidade árcade do rei Evandro no Palatino (unida em torno da Ara Máxima e o culto a Hércules), registro de ocupações humanas organizadas no local de Roma. A absorção dos sabinos dentro da cidade também não se passou fora destes parâmetros. Rômulo dividiu a população em trinta cúrias cujos nomes foram dados das mulheres sabinas, talvez uma explicação lendárias de cúrias de famílias sabinas em sua origem. Criou também três centúrias de cavaleiros, ranenses, ticienses e lucérios, nomes estes que sabemos hoje serem de origem etrusca, e porque não de organizações de famílias etruscas migrantes?
Ouvimos que Rômulo concedeu asilo a bandoleiros e migrantes para a formação de Roma. Esta nova população, origem da plebe, não tinha a organização religiosa, não eram famílias nem tinham a organização religiosa das gentes/cúrias/tribos, por isso causou sensação quando no período republicano foi dividida nas chamadas ´tribos urbanas´, já que foi uma ´artificial´ divisão política numa divisão religiosa mais antiga. Um dos motivos pelos quais os plebeus no principio não podiam ter acessos às magistraturas, como não possuíam seus cultos familiares, os deuses da cidade não os reconheciam. Dai porque as primeiras magistraturas permitidas aos plebeus não tinham caráter sagrado, como os tribunos militares, tribunos da plebe e edis plebeus (para cuidar dos santuários que a plebe erigia para si)
A cidade antiga era uma confederação. Por isso durante muitos séculos se viu obrigada a respeitar a independencia religiosa e civil das famílias, cúrias e tribos. Duas familias não podiam se fundir, mas podiam se unir para formar uma fatria. Duas fatrias não se fundiam, mas uniam-se nas tribos. que por sua vez nao se mesclavam, mas geraram a cidade. Não importa o que gerou a associação, se a força de uma familia (Cecropidas em Atenas), a força de um homem (Romulo em Roma), proteção e defesa mutua, era o culto comum que se constituia o vinculo desta associação.
Era cidadão quem adorava e era reconhecido pelos deuses da cidade.
Valete bene in pacem deorum,
L. Arminius Faustus
Senior Plebeian Aedile, Quaestor,
Interpreter (lingua lusitaniae), Scriba propraetoris Brasiliae.
Visit my office at http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/lafaustus/index.html
"I too in words could fight even Immortals..."
Iliad, Homer, book XX
The answer of Hector about Achilles' speeches.
---------------------------------
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| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quo Vadis? |
| From: |
"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com> |
| Date: |
Sat, 15 Feb 2003 07:07:46 -0800 (PST) |
|
--- Sextus Apollonius Scipio
<scipio_apollonius@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Salve L. Sicinius Drusus,
>
> > Certain political parties in Macronations are
> > exonerating SOME of thier citizens from Income
> taxes
> > to foster class based voting that will place the
> > entire tax burden on other citizens who will pay
> for
> > benifts recived by the non tax payers. I See no
> reason
> > to introduce 21st century style class warfare into
> > Nova Roma.
>
> This is true but this point is not the main one I
> was talking about.
>
> > Our tax is a head tax, not an income tax. Each
> citizen
> > from a given Macronation pays an equal tax
> regardless
> > of his income. I Have no objection to a Roman
> style
> > tax where the first class has a higher tax to go
> with
> > thier increased voting powers.
>
> It is my beleif that there should be an adequation
> between the tax we ask to our citizens
> and the services we give them back in return. So
> far, I think the amount is appropriate.
>
> Vale,
>
> Sextus Apollonius Scipio
> Consular Quaestor
>
The current level of Taxes prohibits us from offering
more services to our citizens. If it is maintained we
shall remain primarly an Internet group with little
real world interaction. More services can't precede
higher taxes unless we were willing to borrow money to
provide the services. Higher taxes will have to
precede offering the expanded services.
=====
L. Sicinius Drusus
Roman Citizen
__________________________________________________
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| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quo Vadis? |
| From: |
"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@yahoo.com> |
| Date: |
Sat, 15 Feb 2003 08:01:24 -0800 (PST) |
|
Salvete Omnes,
There are many groups compeating for recognition in
the Macroworld, and many of these are far larger and
more active than Nova Roma, yet are still ignored. If
all of Nova Roma's citizens lived in a single small
town with a population of a few thousands we would be
recognized by that town. If we all lived in one of the
great cities of the world with a population of over a
million, we would still be ignored by that city
because of our present small size.
We have to grow larger before we shall be recognized
by the larger world. Retaining citizens is an
important step in that growth. Local groups will help
us retain citizens, so I too look forward to seeing
the plan for Local groups.
--- "deciusiunius <bcatfd@together.net>"
<bcatfd@together.net> wrote:
>
> Salve Sexte Apolloni,
>
> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Sextus Apollonius
> Scipio
> <scipio_apollonius@y...> wrote:
> > My point of view is that we should first of all
> gain some
> >recognition from the macroworld.
> > Without it, we are in no position to ask for more
> taxes or even to
> >hope for any donation. Recognition is the main goal
> of the platform
> >of Honored Consul Caeso Fabius Quintilianus.
>
> I have read the ideas on the Consul's website. It is
> a reversal of
> priorities, or as the expression in English goes,
> putting the cart
> before the horse. Why should the Macroworld
> recognize us? It stands
> to reason that we cannot receive recognition until
> we have done
> something on our own worth recognizing. How are we
> to receive
> macronational recognition or be taken seriously when
> only a fraction
> of our stated members bother to remain active? Out
> of our stated 1773
> citizens, at most 300 are active if we look at tax
> payment or voting.
> Until we can give members a reason to pay their
> taxes and be active,
> looking for macronational recognition is a dream and
> a distraction.
>
> We must concentrate on developing the provinces and
> encouraging
> participation on the local level. From what I
> understand, the Consul
> is working on a plan to encourage the development of
> local groups. I
> support this and look forward to hearing more about
> it.
>
> Vale,
>
> Decius Iunius Palladius
>
>
=====
L. Sicinius Drusus
Roman Citizen
__________________________________________________
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| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Edictum Aedilicium VI de Investigationibus [Investigations] |
| From: |
"Franciscus Apulus Caesar" <sacro_barese_impero@libero.it> |
| Date: |
Sat, 15 Feb 2003 15:15:38 +0100 |
|
Franciscus Apulus Caesar Omnibus S.P.D.
Edictum Aedilicium VI de Investigationibus [Investigations]
15th February, 2756
Ex Officio Aedilis Curulis Francisci Apuli Caesaris
This edict sets forth the manner and methods by which
the Aediles Curules shall carry out investigations
into charges and complaints brought by any person -
either citizen or guest or other associate of Nova
Roma - under the lawful authority of the Aedilis
Curulis.
I. As Curule magistrates of Nova Roma, the Aediles
Curules may be approached by any person with a
complaint or charge of wrongdoing by a citizen or
associate or guest of Nova Roma, on matters falling
within the purview of the Aediles Curules. Such
charges must be examined and investigated to establish
the facts and circumstances surrounding the matter.
II. If an offense is obvious, the Aedilis Curulis to
whom charges are brought may elect to conduct a quick
investigation and then deal with the matter. When
charges are complicated, or not obvious, or otherwise
require further investigation, the charges and
complaints shall be investigated either by the Aedilis
Curulis personally, or by his/her designated
representatives (investigatores). These investigations
will be recorded and kept confidential by the Aedilis
Curulis.
III. All investigations into charges and complaints of
wrongdoing shall be conducted in such a way as to
respect the dignitas of all parties concerned.
Investigatores shall maintain strict confidentiality,
discussing matters under investigation only with the
accused, other witnesses, the plaintiff, the Aedilis
Curulis to whom they answer and other investigatores
appointed to the same case. Investigatores shall urge
plaintiffs, accused parties, and witnesses to limit
comment on such matters out of respect for all.
IV. When investigation shows that an offense has
occurred, the Curule Aedile who initiated the
investigation shall exercise invocatio to call the
accused to justice. The manner in which justice is
then served shall be as declared in separate edicta
and other laws of Nova Roma.
V. Records of all investigations - even the most
cursory - shall be kept by the Curule Aediles and
their designated scribae. When a Curule Aedile
relinquishes office that Aedile's confidential records
of investigations shall be transferred into the
custody of the Temple of Ceres, or such other archive
as the Temple of Ceres shall designate, there to be
retained for a period of not less than two years for
investigations which did not lead to trial, and not
less than five years for investigations which did lead
to trial. These records are confidential, and may be
released only to Curule magistrates engaged in their
lawfully appointed duties. They may not be published
save for such portions as become a matter of public
record through being introduced as evidence in a trial
or magisterial nonjudicial hearing.
VI. Each record of investigation shall include, at a
minimum:
a. Name (NovaRoman and legal names) of the plaintiff(s)
b. Name (NovaRoman and legal names) of the accused if known
c. Statement of charges and/or complaints including specifications
d. Names (NovaRoman if applicable and legal names) of witnesses
e. Statements of witnesses, plaintiff(s), and accused
f. Investigator's findings of fact and evidence
g. Investigator's conclusions
h. NovaRoman and legal name of Investigator
i. NovaRoman and legal Name of Curule Aedile who
commissioned the investigation, if complaint not
investigated by the Curule Aedile directly.
VI. Investigatores appointed by a Curule Aedile to
investigate charges and complaints brought before the
Aedilis Curulis shall be considered commissioned
representatives of their magistrate, and given full
cooperation in their investigations by all plaintiffs,
witnesses, and other citizens and associates of Nova
Roma. Any citizen who feels that an Investigator thus
appointed has abused their authority to harass,
insult, or otherwise damage a person may bring the
matter to the attention of either Curule Aedile, or
any other Curule magistrate who may wish to intervene,
or in the case of Plebeians, any Tribune of the Plebs.
VII. Each Aedilis Curulis will have at his disposal a
team of four Indagatores (detectives). Each team is
led by a Centurio Indagator. The following rules shall
be followed:
a. the identities of the four Indagatores and of the
Centurio Indagator are secret.
b. the Aedilis Curulis know the identities of his four
Indagatores and of the Centurio Indagator.
c. the Centurio Indagator knows the identities of the
four Indagatores.
d. the four Indagatores know the identity of the
Centurio Indagator.
e. the four Indagatores do not know their respective
identities.
VIII. All the material gathered by the Indagatores
shall be recorded and added to the record (if any)
provided by the Investigatores. Material gathered by
the Indagatores has legal value in case of a trial.
IX. This same Edictum has been issued by both the
Aediles Curules.
XII. This Edictum becomes effective immediately. Given
15th February, in the year of the consulship of
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus and Titus Labienus
Fortunatus, 2756 AUC.
Franciscus Apulus Caesar
-------------------------------------------
Senior Curule Aedile
Propraetor Provinciae Italiae
Accensus Consulis Quintilianis
Scriba Curatoris Araneum
-------------------------------------------
Provincia Italia - http://italia.novaroma.org
Cohors Aedilis F. Apulus Caesar - http://aediles.novaroma.org/apulus
Paterfamilias Gens Apula - www.gensapula.too.it
Academia Italica - http://italia.novaroma.org/academiaitalica
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| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Edictum Aedilicium VII de Actionibus Aediliciis [Aedilian Actions] |
| From: |
"Franciscus Apulus Caesar" <sacro_barese_impero@libero.it> |
| Date: |
Sat, 15 Feb 2003 15:17:31 +0100 |
|
Franciscus Apulus Caesar Omnibus S.P.D.
Edictum Aedilicium VII de Actionibus Aediliciis [Aedilian Actions]
15th February, 2756
Ex Officio Aedilis Curulis Francisci Apuli Caesaris
The plaintiff shall be adressed in this edict as
"actor". The defendant shall be adressed as "reus".
I. Wherever possible, the Aediles Curules shall try to
solve a dispute peacefully. If the actor and the reus
can agree on the matter and on the nonjudicial
penalties imposed by the Aedilis Curulis, there will
be no need of a trial. If the reus does not agree with
the nonjudicial penalties imposed by the Aedilis
Curulis, he/she may refuse them and instead insist on
a trial.
II. Nonjudicial penalties The following measures may
be imposed against citizens of Nova Roma by the
Aediles Curules for offenses against the laws, subject
to the provisions listed above which guarantee all
citizens the choice of trial in lieu of Curule
Aedelian imposed nonjudicial penalties:
a. official recommendation to a list moderator that an
offender be removed from the concerned list for a
specified period of time or permanently.
b. official demand for apologies that must be publicly
made in the same forum where the offense was made,
with a copy sent to the Aediles Curules, and another
to all other parties involved.
c. official request to the Censores for the issuance
of a nota against the offender.
d. imposition of a fine of not more than $50 US
(Euro 50, SH 100), to be paid in the same way as taxes
within a time specified by the Aedilis Curulis
imposing the fine.
e. any measure the two parts agree on.
f. all these measures may be combined as the Aediles
Curules see fit.
g. no corporal punishments of any sort, including
flogging, beating with rods from the Lictor's bundle
of fasces, or any other sort of violent physical
contact, may be imposed.
III. In case the Aedilis Curulis receives a petitio
actionis, he shall decide, within 72 hours, if the
petitio actionis shall be presented to a court or if
it shall be dismissed. The Aedilis Curulis can dismiss
a petitio actionis if and only if one of the following
cases applies:
a. The Aedilis Curulis has no competence in the issue,
as the implications are over his jurisdiction.
b. The claim is incongruent.
IV. If the claim is approved by the Aedilis Curulis,
the reus shall be informed of the nature of the claim
presented against him and of the identity of the actor
within 36 hours after the claim's approval.
V. Once a claim has been accepted by an Aedilis
Curulis, that same Aedilis Curulis shall prepare a
formula to present to the judges (iudices). The
formula shall consist of a logical statement that
instructs the iudices on the decision they must take.
The formula shall be structured according to article V
of the Lex Salicia Iudiciaria.
VI. Once the formula is ready, the Aedilis Curulis
shall take at random from the Album Iudicium (see Lex
Salicia Iudiciaria) the names of the judges (iudices)
which will judge the case. The court (tribunalis)
shall be composed of ten (10) iudices.
The following considerations apply:
a. If the Aedilis Curulis considers that a iudex thus
appointed is obviously related by ties of interest to
one of the parts, then the Aedilis Curulis shall, at
his own discretion, dismiss that iudex and cast lots
to appoint a different iudex from the Album Iudicium.
b. A citizen thus appointed to a court shall be able
to ask for an exemption from that judicial work if
there are factors that do not allow him to serve in
that position. That exemption must be asked to the
Aedilis Curulis within 36 hours of the official
announcement of that appointment; the Aedilis Curulis
shall grant that exemption to his own discretion, or
he shall deny it, thus forcing the appointed iudex to
serve or face an accusation of contempt.
c. Each part shall be able to dismiss a iudex for a
maximum of three (3) times, forcing a new iudex to be
taken at random from the Album Iudicium with each
veto. Once both parts agree with the identities of the
iudices, or both have already spent their three
vetoes, the remaining iudices shall be the final
iudices, unless one of the preceding paragraphs
applies.
d. If both parts can agree on a certain citizen of
Nova Roma to judge their case before a definitive
legal iudex has been appointed, then the Aedilis
Curulis shall appoint that citizen iudex for the
current case.
VII. Once the iudices have been appointed, the Aedilis
Curulis shall inform them of the formula they shall
apply. The Aedilis Curulis shall decide if the trial
is going to be conducted under the public scrutiny or,
should the dignitas of innocents be at stake, declare
a secret summary and move the trial away from public
scrutiny.
VIII. Any of the parts can choose to appoint an
advocatus (advocate or barrister) to speak for them in
front of the iudices, or they can choose to speak by
themselves. An advocatus shall not receive a fee for
his services.
IX. The actor shall present evidence to back his
demands, and then the reus shall present evidence to
back his defense. Evidence shall consist of anything
that is relevant to the case, including written text,
visual evidence, the statements of witnesses or
experts. In the case of statements, each part shall
have the right to ask questions to the witnesses and
experts presented by the other part.
X. The Aedilis Curulis shall be the final judge to
determine what pieces of evidence are relevant to the
case.
XI. Once both parts have presented their evidences,
each part shall have the opportunity to make one final
allegation in front of the iudices, with the actor
speaking in the first place. Then the Aedilis Curulis
shall call for a sententia (sentence) from the
iudices, reminding them that, in case of doubt, they
must *not* condemn the vendor.
XII. Once the Aedilis Curulis has called for a
sententia, the iudices shall have 72 hours to
deliberate; within those 72 hours, the iudices shall
issue one of the following sentences:
A. ABSOLVO: if the tribunal's majority decision is
"absolvo", the reus shall be acquited.
B. CONDEMNO: if the tribunal's majority decision is
"condemno", the reus shall be condemned according to
the formula previously established by the praetor.
Should there be a draw in the tribunal's votes, the
reus shall be acquited.
XIII. Once the tribunalis issued his sententia, the
Aedilis Curulis shall immediately inform the parts of
the sententia, and shall enforce any penalties.
XIV. In those cases where the laws of Nova Roma or the
Aedilis Curulis' sense deem it necessary, the formula
shall include one or several of the following
penalties to be inflicted upon a convicted reus:
A. MVLTA PECVNIARIA: a fine payable to the treasury of
Nova Roma. This fine can never exceed US$100 (euro100,
SH200). The convicted reus shall suffer inhabilitatio
(see Lex Salicia Iudiciaria), until the declaration
has been made to the Aedilis Curulis's satisfaction.
In case the reus has been condemned for unfair
behaviour as customer in a purchase, the fine shall
not exceed 50% of the price of the purchased good or
$100 US (Euro100, SH200), whichever is less.
B. DECLARATIO PVBLICA: the convicted reus shall
publicly recognize the actor's charge in any public
fora indicated in the formula. The convicted reus
shall suffer inhabilitatio (see Lex Salicia
Iudiciaria), until the declaration has been made to
the Aedilis Curulis's satisfaction.
In those case where the reus belongs to the Ordo
Equester and has been condemned for unfair business
practice, the formula can also include:
C. EXACTIO EX ORDINE EQVESTRE: the convicted reus
shall loose his membership in the Ordo Equester and
all the rights and duties associated with it for a set
(but not necessarily limited) period of time, or until
a certain condition is met; any condition or time
period must be explicitly stated in the formula.
XV. In those cases where a crime would require
inhabilitatio or exactio as a penalty (see Lex Salicia
Iudiciaria), the potential imposition of such measure
shall be submitted to the Praetorial tribunalis.
However the Aedilis Curulis' tribunalis shall judge
the part of the case not requiring one of this
penalties.
XVI. Once a reus has been absolved he shall not be
judged again under the same accusations.
XVII. This same Edictum has been issued by both the
Aediles Curules.
XVIII. This Edictum becomes effective immediately.
Given 15th February, in the year of the
consulship of Caeso Fabius Quintilianus and Titus
Labienus Fortunatus, 2756 AUC.
Franciscus Apulus Caesar
-------------------------------------------
Senior Curule Aedile
Propraetor Provinciae Italiae
Accensus Consulis Quintilianis
Scriba Curatoris Araneum
-------------------------------------------
Provincia Italia - http://italia.novaroma.org
Cohors Aedilis F. Apulus Caesar - http://aediles.novaroma.org/apulus
Paterfamilias Gens Apula - www.gensapula.too.it
Academia Italica - http://italia.novaroma.org/academiaitalica
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| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Edictum Aedilicium IV de Iusta Mercatura [Fair Business Practices] |
| From: |
"Franciscus Apulus Caesar" <sacro_barese_impero@libero.it> |
| Date: |
Sat, 15 Feb 2003 15:17:38 +0100 |
|
Franciscus Apulus Caesar Omnibus S.P.D.
Edictum Aedilicium IV de Iusta Mercatura [Fair Business Practices]
15th February, 2756
Ex Officio Aedilis Curulis Francisci Apuli Caesaris
- Introduction
Since the establishment of the office of Curule Aedile
in antiquity, the Curule Aedile has been charged with
maintaining fair and just business practices within
the marketplaces of Roma. Nova Roman citizens deserve
the same assurances of fair dealing as their fellow
Roman citizens of antiquity, and promise of redress in
the event of grievance.
Therefore:
I. Marketplaces under this edict include world wide
web based businesses operated by members of the Ordo
Equester, businesses operating at sponsored Nova Roma
events, and any other business activity carried out
with express knowledge that Nova Roma citizens are
involved, whether by Nova Roma citizens or by
associates who knowingly do business with Nova Roma.
Vendors under this Edictum are all those people
working within a marketplace.
II. The vendor has the obligation to provide quality
in the commercial process, the commercial process
being composed of the item, the payment means and the
consignment.
III. The vendor has the obligation to declare the
hidden defects of the item, the hidden defects being
those which are not immediately apparent to the
purchaser in the first analysis.
IV. Any Nova Roman citizen may seek justice from the
Curule Aediles in the event they feel they have been
dealt with unfairly in any marketplace operating under
the authority of Nova Roma.
V. Should the purchaser deem to have found in the item
a defect which had not been declared by the vendor, or
should the item be damaged because of the vendor's
fault, or should the purchaser be disappointed by the
lack of quality of the commercial process, the
purchaser shall be able to bring an action ("actio")
against the vendor him/herself (henceforth in the
masculine form). The actio the purchaser is intending
to exert must be announced to one of the Aediles
Curules ("editio actionis"), asking to start the
procedure ("petitio actionis").
VI. The purchaser can ask for one of the following
actiones:
a. "Actio redhibitoria": this actio must be announced
within one (1) week from the delivery of the item (a
delivery document shall be provided), excluding any
periods in which such actions are prohibited.
According to this actio, the purchaser returns the
item and receives the whole paid price.
b. "Actio quanti minoris": this actio must be
announced within two (2) weeks from the delivery of
the item (a delivery document shall be provided),
excluding any periods in which such actions are
prohibited. According to this actio, the purchaser
keeps the item and receives the difference between the
paid price and the price he would pay if he knew the
defect of the item.
Such actions can not be exerted if case the defect
occurred after the delivery of the item.
VII. These actiones can be exerted independently of
the fact that the defects are attributable to the
vendor's lack of diligence, i.e. a fault, or to his
will to cause a damage on his own behalf, i.e. a
fraud.
VIII. Should the vendor deem to have been damaged or
defreauded by an unfair behaviour of the customer, the
vendor shall be able to bring an actio against the
customer himself. The vendor must announce the actio
he is intending to exert to one of the Aediles Curules
("editio actionis"), asking to start the procedure
("petitio actionis") within one (1) month from the
sale.
IX. Should the Aedilis Curulis deem it necessary, he
can start secret investigations thus fulfilling
section IV.A.4.e of the Constitution.
X. Should the Aedilis Curulis deem the Res Publica of
Nova Roma to have been damaged or defreauded by an
unfair behaviour of a vendor, the Aedils Curulis shall
be able to bring an action against him. The vendor
shall be informed of the nature of the claim presented
against him.
XI. This same Edictum has been issued by both the
Aediles Curules.
XII. This Edictum becomes effective immediately. Given
15th February , in the year of the consulship of
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus and Titus Labienus
Fortunatus, 2756 AUC.
Franciscus Apulus Caesar
-------------------------------------------
Senior Curule Aedile
Propraetor Provinciae Italiae
Accensus Consulis Quintilianis
Scriba Curatoris Araneum
-------------------------------------------
Provincia Italia - http://italia.novaroma.org
Cohors Aedilis F. Apulus Caesar - http://aediles.novaroma.org/apulus
Paterfamilias Gens Apula - www.gensapula.too.it
Academia Italica - http://italia.novaroma.org/academiaitalica
Yahoo Messanger: fapulus
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|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Edictum Aedilicium V de Ludorum Dignitate [Dignitasof the Ludi] |
| From: |
"Franciscus Apulus Caesar" <sacro_barese_impero@libero.it> |
| Date: |
Sat, 15 Feb 2003 15:17:57 +0100 |
|
Franciscus Apulus Caesar Omnibus S.P.D.
Edictum Aedilicium V de Ludorum Dignitate [Dignitasof the Ludi]
15th February, 2756
Ex Officio Aedilis Curulis Francisci Apuli Caesaris
- Introduction
In accordance with the Constitution of Nova Roma,
section IV.A.4.b, the Aediles Curules have the
obligation to see to the conduct of public games and
other festivals and gatherings and to ensure order at
public religious events.
Therefore:
I. The Ludi of Nova Roma are sacrosanct. As a
consequence, during the Ludi:
a. it is strictly prohibited to have harsh discussions
of any kind on any official Forum
b. it is strictly prohibited to bring an action
against somebody
c. it is strictly prohibited to disturb the course of
the Ludi (satire shall not be considered among
disturbing elements) d. no trial of any kind can take
place
II. In those cases where the Aedilis Curulis' sense
deem it necessary, the Aedilis Curulis shall be able
to take the following measures:
a. to officially require the disturbing factor to be
immediately ceased through an Edictum.
b. to officially ask to have one or more persons put
under moderation on the official Fora of Nova Roma
until the Ludi are concluded.
III. Should the Aedilis Curulis see fit, he shall be
able to bring an action after the Ludi against any
individual who seriously infringed the sacrosanct
nature of the Ludi themselves, thus intending all
those actions which interfere with their regular
course and directly or indirectly cause a
disturbation.
IV. This same Edictum has been issued by both the
Aediles Curules.
V. This Edictum becomes effective immediately. Given
15th February, in the year of the consulship of
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus and Titus Labienus
Fortunatus, 2756 AUC.
Franciscus Apulus Caesar
-------------------------------------------
Senior Curule Aedile
Propraetor Provinciae Italiae
Accensus Consulis Quintilianis
Scriba Curatoris Araneum
-------------------------------------------
Provincia Italia - http://italia.novaroma.org
Cohors Aedilis F. Apulus Caesar - http://aediles.novaroma.org/apulus
Paterfamilias Gens Apula - www.gensapula.too.it
Academia Italica - http://italia.novaroma.org/academiaitalica
Yahoo Messanger: fapulus
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Quo Vadis? |
| From: |
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com> |
| Date: |
Sat, 15 Feb 2003 18:17:12 +0100 |
|
Salve Illustrus Senator!
>There are many groups compeating for recognition in
>the Macroworld, and many of these are far larger and
>more active than Nova Roma, yet are still ignored.
But, in Europe there is no Roman organisation working all over the
Roman "field"and EU seem to be looking for some organisation that is
working with the ancient Roman culture. This is a good opportunity
for us, we must take it and even if we don't succeed, because we are
so small I think it will make us more known and maybe give us a
better position in the future. There is no meaning in hiding in the
dark. You see, since EU became what it is today it is usual among
Europeans to try to get money from different EU-projects. I have many
friends that have tried it or are going to try it. Some succeed and
some fail.
>If
>all of Nova Roma's citizens lived in a single small
>town with a population of a few thousands we would be
>recognized by that town.
Yes I agree that we also shall try to get known in places where we
may easily succeed to be recognized.
>If we all lived in one of the
>great cities of the world with a population of over a
>million, we would still be ignored by that city
>because of our present small size.
>
>We have to grow larger before we shall be recognized
>by the larger world. Retaining citizens is an
>important step in that growth. Local groups will help
>us retain citizens, so I too look forward to seeing
>the plan for Local groups.
Yes as our Colleague Illustrus Decius Iunius Palladius mentioned that
I am planing for a law about Local groups. At the moment I am
listening to the discussion and will later present a law. Still there
is noting to prevent Governors or citizens to start inofficial
groups. In my city we are four citizens and have all met informally a
few times. In the autumn we plan to help the Legatus for Suecica to
spread some broschure and PR for Nova Roma.
I also plan to try to start a campaign for Nova Roma on the
Macronational level (mostly universities and student organisations)
during my term as a Consul. This will be done in cooperation with the
Egressus although at the moment everything is just dreams. When this
campaign starts all citizens will be needded! ;-)
>--- "deciusiunius <bcatfd@together.net>"
><bcatfd@together.net> wrote:
>>
>> Salve Sexte Apolloni,
>>
>> --- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Sextus Apollonius
>> Scipio
>> <scipio_apollonius@y...> wrote:
>> > My point of view is that we should first of all
>> gain some
>> >recognition from the macroworld.
>> > Without it, we are in no position to ask for more
>> taxes or even to
>> >hope for any donation. Recognition is the main goal
>> of the platform
>> >of Honored Consul Caeso Fabius Quintilianus.
>>
>> I have read the ideas on the Consul's website. It is
>> a reversal of
>> priorities, or as the expression in English goes,
>> putting the cart
>> before the horse. Why should the Macroworld
>> recognize us? It stands
>> to reason that we cannot receive recognition until
>> we have done
>> something on our own worth recognizing. How are we
>> to receive
>> macronational recognition or be taken seriously when
>> only a fraction
>> of our stated members bother to remain active? Out
>> of our stated 1773
>> citizens, at most 300 are active if we look at tax
>> payment or voting.
>> Until we can give members a reason to pay their
>> taxes and be active,
>> looking for macronational recognition is a dream and
>> a distraction.
>>
>> We must concentrate on developing the provinces and
>> encouraging
>> participation on the local level. From what I
>> understand, the Consul
>> is working on a plan to encourage the development of
>> local groups. I
>> support this and look forward to hearing more about
>> it.
>>
>> Vale,
>>
>> Decius Iunius Palladius
>>
>>
>
>
>=====
>L. Sicinius Drusus
>
>Roman Citizen
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
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>
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>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
--
Vale
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness
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|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Edictum Aedilicium VI de Investigationibus [Investigations] |
| From: |
"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net> |
| Date: |
Sat, 15 Feb 2003 10:07:33 -0800 |
|
Avete Omnes,
What jurisdictional authority gives the Aediles to conduct investigations outside of the marketplace? This is my first question, while I am reviewing the remainder of this and the other edicts. According to IV.A.4 of the Constitution I do not see how you can grant yourselves such sweeping authority.
Respectfully,
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: Franciscus Apulus Caesar
To: NovaRoma-Announce@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com ; Collegium_Aediles@yahoogroups.com ; cohors_fac@yahoogroups.com ; Bill Gawne
Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2003 6:15 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Edictum Aedilicium VI de Investigationibus [Investigations]
Franciscus Apulus Caesar Omnibus S.P.D.
Edictum Aedilicium VI de Investigationibus [Investigations]
15th February, 2756
Ex Officio Aedilis Curulis Francisci Apuli Caesaris
This edict sets forth the manner and methods by which
the Aediles Curules shall carry out investigations
into charges and complaints brought by any person -
either citizen or guest or other associate of Nova
Roma - under the lawful authority of the Aedilis
Curulis.
I. As Curule magistrates of Nova Roma, the Aediles
Curules may be approached by any person with a
complaint or charge of wrongdoing by a citizen or
associate or guest of Nova Roma, on matters falling
within the purview of the Aediles Curules. Such
charges must be examined and investigated to establish
the facts and circumstances surrounding the matter.
II. If an offense is obvious, the Aedilis Curulis to
whom charges are brought may elect to conduct a quick
investigation and then deal with the matter. When
charges are complicated, or not obvious, or otherwise
require further investigation, the charges and
complaints shall be investigated either by the Aedilis
Curulis personally, or by his/her designated
representatives (investigatores). These investigations
will be recorded and kept confidential by the Aedilis
Curulis.
III. All investigations into charges and complaints of
wrongdoing shall be conducted in such a way as to
respect the dignitas of all parties concerned.
Investigatores shall maintain strict confidentiality,
discussing matters under investigation only with the
accused, other witnesses, the plaintiff, the Aedilis
Curulis to whom they answer and other investigatores
appointed to the same case. Investigatores shall urge
plaintiffs, accused parties, and witnesses to limit
comment on such matters out of respect for all.
IV. When investigation shows that an offense has
occurred, the Curule Aedile who initiated the
investigation shall exercise invocatio to call the
accused to justice. The manner in which justice is
then served shall be as declared in separate edicta
and other laws of Nova Roma.
V. Records of all investigations - even the most
cursory - shall be kept by the Curule Aediles and
their designated scribae. When a Curule Aedile
relinquishes office that Aedile's confidential records
of investigations shall be transferred into the
custody of the Temple of Ceres, or such other archive
as the Temple of Ceres shall designate, there to be
retained for a period of not less than two years for
investigations which did not lead to trial, and not
less than five years for investigations which did lead
to trial. These records are confidential, and may be
released only to Curule magistrates engaged in their
lawfully appointed duties. They may not be published
save for such portions as become a matter of public
record through being introduced as evidence in a trial
or magisterial nonjudicial hearing.
VI. Each record of investigation shall include, at a
minimum:
a. Name (NovaRoman and legal names) of the plaintiff(s)
b. Name (NovaRoman and legal names) of the accused if known
c. Statement of charges and/or complaints including specifications
d. Names (NovaRoman if applicable and legal names) of witnesses
e. Statements of witnesses, plaintiff(s), and accused
f. Investigator's findings of fact and evidence
g. Investigator's conclusions
h. NovaRoman and legal name of Investigator
i. NovaRoman and legal Name of Curule Aedile who
commissioned the investigation, if complaint not
investigated by the Curule Aedile directly.
VI. Investigatores appointed by a Curule Aedile to
investigate charges and complaints brought before the
Aedilis Curulis shall be considered commissioned
representatives of their magistrate, and given full
cooperation in their investigations by all plaintiffs,
witnesses, and other citizens and associates of Nova
Roma. Any citizen who feels that an Investigator thus
appointed has abused their authority to harass,
insult, or otherwise damage a person may bring the
matter to the attention of either Curule Aedile, or
any other Curule magistrate who may wish to intervene,
or in the case of Plebeians, any Tribune of the Plebs.
VII. Each Aedilis Curulis will have at his disposal a
team of four Indagatores (detectives). Each team is
led by a Centurio Indagator. The following rules shall
be followed:
a. the identities of the four Indagatores and of the
Centurio Indagator are secret.
b. the Aedilis Curulis know the identities of his four
Indagatores and of the Centurio Indagator.
c. the Centurio Indagator knows the identities of the
four Indagatores.
d. the four Indagatores know the identity of the
Centurio Indagator.
e. the four Indagatores do not know their respective
identities.
VIII. All the material gathered by the Indagatores
shall be recorded and added to the record (if any)
provided by the Investigatores. Material gathered by
the Indagatores has legal value in case of a trial.
IX. This same Edictum has been issued by both the
Aediles Curules.
XII. This Edictum becomes effective immediately. Given
15th February, in the year of the consulship of
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus and Titus Labienus
Fortunatus, 2756 AUC.
Franciscus Apulus Caesar
-------------------------------------------
Senior Curule Aedile
Propraetor Provinciae Italiae
Accensus Consulis Quintilianis
Scriba Curatoris Araneum
-------------------------------------------
Provincia Italia - http://italia.novaroma.org
Cohors Aedilis F. Apulus Caesar - http://aediles.novaroma.org/apulus
Paterfamilias Gens Apula - www.gensapula.too.it
Academia Italica - http://italia.novaroma.org/academiaitalica
Yahoo Messanger: fapulus
|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Edictum Aedilicium V de Ludorum Dignitate [Dignitasof the Ludi] |
| From: |
"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net> |
| Date: |
Sat, 15 Feb 2003 10:14:09 -0800 |
|
Avete Omnes,
----- Original Message -----
From: Franciscus Apulus Caesar
To: NovaRoma-Announce@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com ; Collegium_Aediles@yahoogroups.com ; cohors_fac@yahoogroups.com ; Bill Gawne
Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2003 6:17 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Edictum Aedilicium V de Ludorum Dignitate [Dignitasof the Ludi]
Franciscus Apulus Caesar Omnibus S.P.D.
Edictum Aedilicium V de Ludorum Dignitate [Dignitasof the Ludi]
15th February, 2756
Ex Officio Aedilis Curulis Francisci Apuli Caesaris
- Introduction
In accordance with the Constitution of Nova Roma,
section IV.A.4.b, the Aediles Curules have the
obligation to see to the conduct of public games and
other festivals and gatherings and to ensure order at
public religious events.
Therefore:
I. The Ludi of Nova Roma are sacrosanct. As a
consequence, during the Ludi:
Sulla: As a non-Pagan, I have a question, who determines if the games are Sacrosant? Wouldnt that be in the pervue of the College of Pontiffs?
a. it is strictly prohibited to have harsh discussions
of any kind on any official Forum
Sulla: Who determines what is harsh discussions? Isnt this in the pervue of the Praetors? This in my opinion is very dangerous and subjective.
b. it is strictly prohibited to bring an action
against somebody
Sulla: So you are preventing citizens from using the legal system during this time?
c. it is strictly prohibited to disturb the course of
the Ludi (satire shall not be considered among
disturbing elements) d. no trial of any kind can take
place
Sulla: Define disturb please.
II. In those cases where the Aedilis Curulis' sense
deem it necessary, the Aedilis Curulis shall be able
to take the following measures:
a. to officially require the disturbing factor to be
immediately ceased through an Edictum.
Sulla: I do not think you have the authority to do this. It is the Praetors that moderate official forums, not Aediles. And if the edicts regarding the subjects are obeyed you cannot overpower their edict based on the legal precedence clause of the Constitution of Nova Roma (Section I.B.)
b. to officially ask to have one or more persons put
under moderation on the official Fora of Nova Roma
until the Ludi are concluded.
Sulla: See my previous comment.
III. Should the Aedilis Curulis see fit, he shall be
able to bring an action after the Ludi against any
individual who seriously infringed the sacrosanct
nature of the Ludi themselves, thus intending all
those actions which interfere with their regular
course and directly or indirectly cause a
disturbation.
Sulla: See my above concerns.
IV. This same Edictum has been issued by both the
Aediles Curules.
V. This Edictum becomes effective immediately. Given
15th February, in the year of the consulship of
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus and Titus Labienus
Fortunatus, 2756 AUC.
Sulla: As a citizen, I would like to have this edict clarified. Thank you.
Vale,
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Franciscus Apulus Caesar
-------------------------------------------
Senior Curule Aedile
Propraetor Provinciae Italiae
Accensus Consulis Quintilianis
Scriba Curatoris Araneum
-------------------------------------------
Provincia Italia - http://italia.novaroma.org
Cohors Aedilis F. Apulus Caesar - http://aediles.novaroma.org/apulus
Paterfamilias Gens Apula - www.gensapula.too.it
Academia Italica - http://italia.novaroma.org/academiaitalica
Yahoo Messanger: fapulus
|
| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Edictum Aedilicium VII de Actionibus Aediliciis [Aedilian Actions] |
| From: |
"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net> |
| Date: |
Sat, 15 Feb 2003 10:16:39 -0800 |
|
Avete Omnes,
As I am reading over this edict my first question is the same as a previous question I asked:
Avete Omnes,
What jurisdictional authority gives the Aediles to conduct trials/mediations and arbitrations outside of the marketplace? This is my first question, while I am reviewing the remainder of this and the other edicts. According to IV.A.4 of the Constitution I do not see how you can grant yourselves such sweeping authority.
Respectfully,
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: Franciscus Apulus Caesar
To: NovaRoma-Announce@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com ; Bill Gawne ; Collegium_Aediles@yahoogroups.com ; cohors_fac@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2003 6:17 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Edictum Aedilicium VII de Actionibus Aediliciis [Aedilian Actions]
Franciscus Apulus Caesar Omnibus S.P.D.
Edictum Aedilicium VII de Actionibus Aediliciis [Aedilian Actions]
15th February, 2756
Ex Officio Aedilis Curulis Francisci Apuli Caesaris
The plaintiff shall be adressed in this edict as
"actor". The defendant shall be adressed as "reus".
I. Wherever possible, the Aediles Curules shall try to
solve a dispute peacefully. If the actor and the reus
can agree on the matter and on the nonjudicial
penalties imposed by the Aedilis Curulis, there will
be no need of a trial. If the reus does not agree with
the nonjudicial penalties imposed by the Aedilis
Curulis, he/she may refuse them and instead insist on
a trial.
II. Nonjudicial penalties The following measures may
be imposed against citizens of Nova Roma by the
Aediles Curules for offenses against the laws, subject
to the provisions listed above which guarantee all
citizens the choice of trial in lieu of Curule
Aedelian imposed nonjudicial penalties:
a. official recommendation to a list moderator that an
offender be removed from the concerned list for a
specified period of time or permanently.
b. official demand for apologies that must be publicly
made in the same forum where the offense was made,
with a copy sent to the Aediles Curules, and another
to all other parties involved.
c. official request to the Censores for the issuance
of a nota against the offender.
d. imposition of a fine of not more than $50 US
(Euro 50, SH 100), to be paid in the same way as taxes
within a time specified by the Aedilis Curulis
imposing the fine.
e. any measure the two parts agree on.
f. all these measures may be combined as the Aediles
Curules see fit.
g. no corporal punishments of any sort, including
flogging, beating with rods from the Lictor's bundle
of fasces, or any other sort of violent physical
contact, may be imposed.
III. In case the Aedilis Curulis receives a petitio
actionis, he shall decide, within 72 hours, if the
petitio actionis shall be presented to a court or if
it shall be dismissed. The Aedilis Curulis can dismiss
a petitio actionis if and only if one of the following
cases applies:
a. The Aedilis Curulis has no competence in the issue,
as the implications are over his jurisdiction.
b. The claim is incongruent.
IV. If the claim is approved by the Aedilis Curulis,
the reus shall be informed of the nature of the claim
presented against him and of the identity of the actor
within 36 hours after the claim's approval.
V. Once a claim has been accepted by an Aedilis
Curulis, that same Aedilis Curulis shall prepare a
formula to present to the judges (iudices). The
formula shall consist of a logical statement that
instructs the iudices on the decision they must take.
The formula shall be structured according to article V
of the Lex Salicia Iudiciaria.
VI. Once the formula is ready, the Aedilis Curulis
shall take at random from the Album Iudicium (see Lex
Salicia Iudiciaria) the names of the judges (iudices)
which will judge the case. The court (tribunalis)
shall be composed of ten (10) iudices.
The following considerations apply:
a. If the Aedilis Curulis considers that a iudex thus
appointed is obviously related by ties of interest to
one of the parts, then the Aedilis Curulis shall, at
his own discretion, dismiss that iudex and cast lots
to appoint a different iudex from the Album Iudicium.
b. A citizen thus appointed to a court shall be able
to ask for an exemption from that judicial work if
there are factors that do not allow him to serve in
that position. That exemption must be asked to the
Aedilis Curulis within 36 hours of the official
announcement of that appointment; the Aedilis Curulis
shall grant that exemption to his own discretion, or
he shall deny it, thus forcing the appointed iudex to
serve or face an accusation of contempt.
c. Each part shall be able to dismiss a iudex for a
maximum of three (3) times, forcing a new iudex to be
taken at random from the Album Iudicium with each
veto. Once both parts agree with the identities of the
iudices, or both have already spent their three
vetoes, the remaining iudices shall be the final
iudices, unless one of the preceding paragraphs
applies.
d. If both parts can agree on a certain citizen of
Nova Roma to judge their case before a definitive
legal iudex has been appointed, then the Aedilis
Curulis shall appoint that citizen iudex for the
current case.
VII. Once the iudices have been appointed, the Aedilis
Curulis shall inform them of the formula they shall
apply. The Aedilis Curulis shall decide if the trial
is going to be conducted under the public scrutiny or,
should the dignitas of innocents be at stake, declare
a secret summary and move the trial away from public
scrutiny.
VIII. Any of the parts can choose to appoint an
advocatus (advocate or barrister) to speak for them in
front of the iudices, or they can choose to speak by
themselves. An advocatus shall not receive a fee for
his services.
IX. The actor shall present evidence to back his
demands, and then the reus shall present evidence to
back his defense. Evidence shall consist of anything
that is relevant to the case, including written text,
visual evidence, the statements of witnesses or
experts. In the case of statements, each part shall
have the right to ask questions to the witnesses and
experts presented by the other part.
X. The Aedilis Curulis shall be the final judge to
determine what pieces of evidence are relevant to the
case.
XI. Once both parts have presented their evidences,
each part shall have the opportunity to make one final
allegation in front of the iudices, with the actor
speaking in the first place. Then the Aedilis Curulis
shall call for a sententia (sentence) from the
iudices, reminding them that, in case of doubt, they
must *not* condemn the vendor.
XII. Once the Aedilis Curulis has called for a
sententia, the iudices shall have 72 hours to
deliberate; within those 72 hours, the iudices shall
issue one of the following sentences:
A. ABSOLVO: if the tribunal's majority decision is
"absolvo", the reus shall be acquited.
B. CONDEMNO: if the tribunal's majority decision is
"condemno", the reus shall be condemned according to
the formula previously established by the praetor.
Should there be a draw in the tribunal's votes, the
reus shall be acquited.
XIII. Once the tribunalis issued his sententia, the
Aedilis Curulis shall immediately inform the parts of
the sententia, and shall enforce any penalties.
XIV. In those cases where the laws of Nova Roma or the
Aedilis Curulis' sense deem it necessary, the formula
shall include one or several of the following
penalties to be inflicted upon a convicted reus:
A. MVLTA PECVNIARIA: a fine payable to the treasury of
Nova Roma. This fine can never exceed US$100 (euro100,
SH200). The convicted reus shall suffer inhabilitatio
(see Lex Salicia Iudiciaria), until the declaration
has been made to the Aedilis Curulis's satisfaction.
In case the reus has been condemned for unfair
behaviour as customer in a purchase, the fine shall
not exceed 50% of the price of the purchased good or
$100 US (Euro100, SH200), whichever is less.
B. DECLARATIO PVBLICA: the convicted reus shall
publicly recognize the actor's charge in any public
fora indicated in the formula. The convicted reus
shall suffer inhabilitatio (see Lex Salicia
Iudiciaria), until the declaration has been made to
the Aedilis Curulis's satisfaction.
In those case where the reus belongs to the Ordo
Equester and has been condemned for unfair business
practice, the formula can also include:
C. EXACTIO EX ORDINE EQVESTRE: the convicted reus
shall loose his membership in the Ordo Equester and
all the rights and duties associated with it for a set
(but not necessarily limited) period of time, or until
a certain condition is met; any condition or time
period must be explicitly stated in the formula.
XV. In those cases where a crime would require
inhabilitatio or exactio as a penalty (see Lex Salicia
Iudiciaria), the potential imposition of such measure
shall be submitted to the Praetorial tribunalis.
However the Aedilis Curulis' tribunalis shall judge
the part of the case not requiring one of this
penalties.
XVI. Once a reus has been absolved he shall not be
judged again under the same accusations.
XVII. This same Edictum has been issued by both the
Aediles Curules.
XVIII. This Edictum becomes effective immediately.
Given 15th February, in the year of the
consulship of Caeso Fabius Quintilianus and Titus
Labienus Fortunatus, 2756 AUC.
Franciscus Apulus Caesar
-------------------------------------------
Senior Curule Aedile
Propraetor Provinciae Italiae
Accensus Consulis Quintilianis
Scriba Curatoris Araneum
-------------------------------------------
Provincia Italia - http://italia.novaroma.org
Cohors Aedilis F. Apulus Caesar - http://aediles.novaroma.org/apulus
Paterfamilias Gens Apula - www.gensapula.too.it
Academia Italica - http://italia.novaroma.org/academiaitalica
Yahoo Messanger: fapulus
|
| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Scheduled Event for Nova Britannia 16 February 2003 |
| From: |
"Adrian Gunn" <shinjikun@shinjikun.com> |
| Date: |
Sat, 15 Feb 2003 17:25:41 -0500 |
|
Salvete!
Just a reminder, there will be a Nova Britannia get-together tomorrow,
Sunday February 16th at the Boston Museum of Fine Arts (www.mfa.org).
Title: GALLERY TALK - Celebrating "Lupercalia," the ancient precursor of
Valentine's Day
Date: Sunday, February 16, 2003
Time: 2 p.m.
Calendar: Talks, Courses, and Lectures
By: Henry Augustine Tate
Meet at the Sharf Information Center.
I would like to meet at the Sharf Information Center inside the MFA at
1:00-1:30 pm. This will give everyone time to get organized and
acquainted prior to the start of the tour. Admission is $15.00 for
adults, $13.00 for seniors and college students, and youths (7-17)
admitted free (on Sundays). If you came to the event last weekend, BRING
YOUR TICKET! It's good for two visits to the museum within 30 days! If
you need directions, they are available at:
http://www.mfa.org/visit/directions.htm After the gallery talk we can
always check out other portions of the Museum or grab something to eat
time permitting.
To avoid any of the confusion we encountered last week. I am 5'7" with
glasses and no hair (well, it's just really, really short). I'll be
carrying a green Army helmet bag and wearing/carrying a blue jacket.
I'll stand over by the TV monitors in the Sharf information center.
Thanks, and I hope to see you all there!
Valete,
C. Minucius Hadrianus
Propraetor Nova Britannia
Lictor
Minerva Templi Sacerdotes
Patria est communis omnium parens.
"Our native land is the common parent of us all." - Cicero
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| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Re: Edictum Aedilicium VI de Investigationibus [Investigations] |
| From: |
"Manius Constantinus Serapio <mcserapio@yahoo.it>" <mcserapio@yahoo.it> |
| Date: |
Sat, 15 Feb 2003 23:01:29 -0000 |
|
--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, "L. Cornelius Sulla"
<alexious@e...> wrote:
> Avete Omnes,
>
> What jurisdictional authority gives the Aediles to conduct
investigations outside of the marketplace? This is my first
question, while I am reviewing the remainder of this and the other
edicts. According to IV.A.4 of the Constitution I do not see how you
can grant yourselves such sweeping authority.
Well, first of all I would think that perhaps last year, when you was
the Iunior Consul, you had no time to read those Edicts published by
Honourable Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, who was Aedilis Curulis. Those
Edicts already stated such opportunity for the Aediles Curules, so
nothing has been changed.
Respectfully,
BENE VALE
Manivs Constantinvs Serapio
Qvaestor
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| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Indo-European Languages-Response |
| From: |
me-in-@disguise.co.uk |
| Date: |
Sat, 15 Feb 2003 23:10:12 +0000 (GMT) |
|
-----Original Message-----
>From : “Gaia Fabia Livia <livia@strategikon.org>“
>
>Ah, I see. I was originally confused by your message, but I think I
>understand where we've misunderstood one another. I was talking
>about the vowels which IE *had* being closer to those of Latin and
>Greek - not necessarily that Latin words have those same vowel sounds
>in the right places in equivalent words.
>
Not far off though, especially in the 2nd declension. I notice they're never called declensions in Sanskrit and it is easier to see the basic endings before they simplified in one sense but became more complex in another under more-than-sandhi influence.
>
>Another thing you might be interested in, which I've been taught over
>the last couple of weeks and is apparently another new development,
>is that the centum/satem divide is no longer considered to be so
>strictly an East/West divide as was once thought. Just a point of
>interest :) I find that shift very interesting myself, I'd be
>interested to know more about what caused it if anyone has any
>references for theories on that - it seems to be one of those things
>they just teach you is the case, and *may* explain later but may not.
>
It is even less meaningful when we consider the present pronunciation of Centum! It's easier to tell the Sanskrit pronunciation because the script was intended to teach phonetics, so really belongs to a period when it was becoming necessary to teach proper mantra pronunciation. Even then we can't tell, going West, whether final Latin M, Greek N might have also been mere nasalisation (forget the term) but it looks likely. Cicero complains that people keep dropping their S, especially final. Take the final S out of Latin and it's virtually Italian! Apparantly Plautus still wrote the 2nd Ablative ending in D and a few other lost endings. English has almost lost the letter T but it isn't worrying anybody.
Caesariensis.
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| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Indo-European Languages-Response |
| From: |
me-in-@disguise.co.uk |
| Date: |
Sat, 15 Feb 2003 23:16:04 +0000 (GMT) |
|
-----Original Message-----
>From : “Gaia Fabia Livia <livia@strategikon.org>“ <livia@strategikon.org>
>
>Yay, digamma! :)
>
Also in Thesewos, Danawos (how like the Irish Tuatha de Danaan!) and that indeed Basilewos. I though Wanax was originally some sort of underling, just as Lord and Lady started out as Hlaf-weard (loaf-ward[en]) and Hlaf-diger (Loaf-doer[maker]).
>Which sheds interesting light on most Homeric scholars' stubborn
>insistence on claiming that every instance of the word basileus
>should be interpreted as 'king', with all that implies - and
>inferring about the society based on that.
>
I didn't know it ever occurred in Homer. I understood it to be non-Greek (which is true if Minoan) and only ever used as Ho Megas Basileus (town Persown) as The General Secretary to us could only refer to the UN, not to the local Trade Union.
Caesariensis.
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| Subject: |
Re: [Nova-Roma] Here's why Sanskrit is precursor of all Indo European Languages |
| From: |
me-in-@disguise.co.uk |
| Date: |
Sat, 15 Feb 2003 23:34:36 +0000 (GMT) |
|
-----Original Message-----
>From : “biojournalism <biojournalism@hotmail.com>“
>
>When you look at the DNA, India populated Europe, and by 15,000
>years ago, there was no more or only a few people leaving India
>again for Europe. The traffic began in the opposite direction. This
>is why you find Indian-specific DNA all over Europe (U2 haplogroup
>mtDNA and X)from Scandinavia to India. Language often but not always
>follows genes, except in the case of Hungary and Turkey where the
>oldest genes remain the same as they were in the Bronze age.
>
There is an interesting, though as stated exploded, theory by Stan Gooch that Neanderthal originated in Africa, Cro-Magnon in India and the two met in Palestine, the result being 3 races of which white, CM dominant, black, equal mix, yellow N dominant.
Restated, a lot of it and some more fits your view of a trek back from India as long as there were some people in the mid-East as well. There is a complete divergence of behaviours (which Gooch attributes to the behaviours of African and Asian apes but need not be from that). C (male) stands tall and threatens by posturing a bristling beard; N threatens by hunkering down and snarling/grinning. N mates from behind and males signal compliance by adopting mating posture; C mates from in front and mooning is a deadly insult. N females are promiscuous and predatory, C are 'chaste needing to be chased'. C looks to the brightness of the desert Sun and the {asiatic} lion {These are rare: I've had the good fortune to see one in a zoo, browner than African, more elegant and panther-like}, N to the wisdom of the Earth and the Serpent.
Genetics show no Neanderthal in our history though I don't know how seeing that we share 98% DNA with a chimpanzee and 50% with a banana, so that aspect is wrong but the possibility of archaic misunderstandings and the memory passing on from that specific part of the world into the bible and so on could still fit your view.
Caesariensis.
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| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Re: Edictum Aedilicium V de Ludorum Dignitate [Dignitasof the Ludi] |
| From: |
"Manius Constantinus Serapio <mcserapio@yahoo.it>" <mcserapio@yahoo.it> |
| Date: |
Sat, 15 Feb 2003 23:43:47 -0000 |
|
AVE LVCI CORNELI SVLLA SENATOR
> I. The Ludi of Nova Roma are sacrosanct. As a
> consequence, during the Ludi:
>
> Sulla: As a non-Pagan, I have a question, who determines if the
games are Sacrosant? Wouldnt that be in the pervue of the College of
Pontiffs?
And as a non-Pagan I say that you could be right on this point. Let
the Pontifex Maximus tell whether the edict can be kept this way or
that word should be modified.
> a. it is strictly prohibited to have harsh discussions
> of any kind on any official Forum
>
> Sulla: Who determines what is harsh discussions? Isnt this in
the pervue of the Praetors?
Of course! I couldn't agree more! The Praetors must say what is harsh
discussions. This Edictum just say that harsh discussions (according
to the Praetores' definition) are not allowed during the Ludi.
> b. it is strictly prohibited to bring an action
> against somebody
>
> Sulla: So you are preventing citizens from using the legal
system during this time?
For several days which shall be completely dedicated to the Ludi.
Enjoy them!
> c. it is strictly prohibited to disturb the course of
> the Ludi (satire shall not be considered among
> disturbing elements) d. no trial of any kind can take
> place
>
> Sulla: Define disturb please.
Well, I don't think I would be good in tranlsating the definition of
the word "disturb" from Italian into English. However, that is. I
think you can imagine what could disturb the normal course of the
Ludi.
> a. to officially require the disturbing factor to be
> immediately ceased through an Edictum.
>
> Sulla: I do not think you have the authority to do this. It is
the Praetors that moderate official forums, not Aediles. And if the
edicts regarding the subjects are obeyed you cannot overpower their
edict based on the legal precedence clause of the Constitution of
Nova Roma (Section I.B.)
It doesn't say "to expel an individual", "to issue a nota", "to put
under modaration", nor anything like that. It says: If you are
disturbing the Ludi the Curule Aedile tells you to stop, as the
Curule Aedile is in charge of their conduct.
However, I'm sure that a Curule Aedile will never act ignoring an
edict issued by a Praetor. Should this happen, the Praetor will veto
it, that's logical.
> b. to officially ask to have one or more persons put
> under moderation on the official Fora of Nova Roma
> until the Ludi are concluded.
>
> Sulla: See my previous comment.
It says "to ask". It means that the Aedilis may ask that (of course,
to a Praetor, the only magistrate entitled to put an individual under
moderation). Just consider that it's nothing extraordinary: every
citizen could ask so, as it is just "asking".
> III. Should the Aedilis Curulis see fit, he shall be
> able to bring an action after the Ludi against any
> individual who seriously infringed the sacrosanct
> nature of the Ludi themselves, thus intending all
> those actions which interfere with their regular
> course and directly or indirectly cause a
> disturbation.
>
> Sulla: See my above concerns.
Again, that "sacrosanct". You could be right.
> Sulla: As a citizen, I would like to have this edict clarified.
Thank you.
_I_ thank you! A discussion on a serious matter can only be an
advantage for everybody!
BENE VALE
Manivs Constantinvs Serapio
Qvaestor
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| Subject: |
[Nova-Roma] Regina |
| From: |
"Titus Arminius Genialis" <tagenialis@yahoo.com.br> |
| Date: |
Sat, 15 Feb 2003 21:49:28 -0300 |
|
Salvete omnes!
Please could anyone tell me how and when the word "regina" started to be
used as a female name?
Besides, does anyone here know something about Japanese surnames and
heraldry?
Valete.
________________________________________
Titus Arminius Genialis
Accensus Junior Petitor Cohortis Consulis CFQ
Scriba Curatoris Differum
Scriba Retiarius Provinciae Brasiliae
Apparitor Salutis Publicae Templi Concordiae
tagenialis@yahoo.com.br
http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/tagenialis
ICQ UIN: 75873373
________________________________________
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