Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: appointments in the Cohors Consulis CFQ
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 2003 16:01:51 -0800

Avete Omnes,
----- Original Message -----
From: Laureatus Armoricus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 3:25 PM
Subject: RE: [Nova-Roma] Re: appointments in the Cohors Consulis CFQ

Sulla: I agree it would be interesting. I am personally glad our taxes
do not go to pay anyone's salary, or I would be raising hell about this. <g>
To appoint essentially useless magistrates (because according to Gn. Equtius
the lower scribes do the work and the mid-level magistrates take the
credit). I do not see how that encourages participation. But beyond that
shouldn't our citizens wish to volunter their services to Rome without
expecting a title or to be rewarded in some manner.

[Laureatus Armoricus respondet] It seemed to me that Gn. Equitius used a
humorous tone when refering to the respective duties of the Accensi (hence
the "tongue in cheek" quote)...I of course have no doubt that they will ALL
work and do their utmost to develop Nova Roma according to the platforms
both Consules have been elected on. The fact that the said consules clearly
admitted that they couldn't be everywhere all the time seems an honest and
realistic view of the current affairs and I have personally no objection to
an official college of assistants (note, please, that we are not talking of
a government, rather a consilium) which was always in effect in previous
consulships but took the form of an informal club of gentlemen.

Sulla Response: Humorous or not it is a telling remark. I remember last year that Propraetor Caeso Fabius had to fire at least two scribes for not doing their duty. How long did it take him to discover this? If those citizens still get century points for payment, what service did they render to deserve any payment. How long will it take for Consul Caeso Fabius to realize that members of his "consilium" are not doing their jobs. Now, since this is a "consilium" and not a government, should these individuals be awarded with century points? And, I must dispute your final sentence, my staff was not an informal club, it was a staff. This "consilium" is more like an army of clients.

Sulla: As for encouraging participation, there is nothing to prevent our
citizens from posting anything they want on the ML, or getting involved in
Sodalitas, trying to establish face to face meetings. But to appoint
someone a scribe to "motivate them" seems to cheapen the role and
responsbility of those who held those positions prior to this army of
bureaucrats. And you should note that this coming from someone who has been
labelled as a bureaucrat by M. Octavius Solaris.

[Laureatus Armoricus respondet] Recognition of the work required and done is
only one of the tools of good management. Perhaps the consules merely
attempted to create a team spirit that will benefit the community as a whole
when the job is done right and conscienciously by a motivated group.

Sulla: What work requires the staff of 26 people or 10.8% of the entire active population of Nova Roma?

As a last note, I do not believe that the work of the consules cheapens the
role of those occupying a public position nor does it create an army of
bureaucrats :

Sulla: You misread my statement, I stated, "But to appoint someone a scribe to "motivate them" seems to cheapens the role and responsbility of those who held those positions prior to this army of bureaucrats." In otherwords he is cheapening the position of scribes and those who held the position before by his poltical spoils system.

It simply states what objectives our senior magistrates have
set for themselves and recognizes officially who will be the "little
helpers" who have so willingly offered the Res Publica their time and sweat.

Sulla: "Little Helpers." Interesting description. I certainly never considered my staff as little helpers. Instead I trusted them and held them in my confidence.

Of course it is by no means a way of saying that they will take care of
everything and install some kind of centralised government (gods forbid)!

Sulla: Why that is what was done in Thule, where 1/3 of the province citizens were titled magistrates.

Diana Moravia for instance is now organising regular meeting in Gallia and
as far as I know she is not part of the team of accensi.

Sulla: She is a Tribune of the Plebs, it would be unethical for a Tribune to be in the staff of a Patrician Consul! How could she protect the rights of the Plebs if she is under oath to a Patrician Consul!

There are many
other examples of such events, one just has to read the archives of the main
list to be convinced of the well being of Nova Roma. I am sure that an
official framework to develop such social gatherings, and indeed any
collective work between dedicated citizens, will not hinder the growth of
Nova Roma but will, on the contrary, provide support and advice to would be
organisers.

Sulla: We shall see.

But it comes at a prize : The necessary appointment of stable
volunteers who can serve as first port of call.

Sulla: Sure and how long will it take for oversight to take place. I am certain that it is far easier for a Consul to surpvise 4 staff members than to have a Consul administer 26 staff members.

Their name and number (call
them Accensi, little elves or "unappointed friends who came to help") is,
in my humble opinion, a matter of appreciation and secondary debate.

Sulla: I disagree if they all get century points, and that is a form of payment.

But my views may be biased and I am looking forward to some more healthy
discussion. Perhaps Titus Labienus Fortunatus or Caeso Fabius Quintilianus,
our consules, could enlighten us as to where they stand, although the
constitution gives them the right and imperium to appoint assistants as they
see fit.

Sulla: Yes it will be interesting to see their comments, though I reckon I know what at least Consul Caeso Fabius will say.

In any case, Corneli Sulla, I agree with you on the underlying issue : We
really need a census, soon, so we can contemplate the future of our
community and the way it is led on a sound and realistic basis. I thank you
for your input and will be happy to keep my mind open to some objections
that I may have overlooked.

Sulla: Thank you for your agreement here. I am looking forward for my law to be put to the test to see if it truly needs revision.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

Optime vale

Cornelius Moravius Laureatus Armoricus
Citizen without official title ;-)


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Congratulations
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 01:26:07 +0100

Salve Colleague!

>First of all congratulations for your new office of Senior Consul.

Thank You for your kind words.

>I am glad that the matter of oaths has been solved. I read the text
>of the oath for the apparitores and think it is very well suited.

Yes, I found a good solution with the help of Illustrus Decius Iunius
Palladius, my colleague and some others.

>By the way I think Senator Decius Iunius Palladius threw light on
>the matter brilliantly.

I agree!

>|It is good to hear that You are OK! I wish You all the |Luck in the
>|future and I really appreciate your friendship. I hope that we soon
>|may sit together on the marble benches of the Senate! ;-)
>
>
>Maximas Gratias amice!. By the way, I am already sitting on the
>benches of the Senate since the month of December :-) .

Yes I know, but You haven't attended a official meeting yet (or is my
memory totally wrong?), that was what I meant. ;-)

>Habeas fortunam optimam
>
>Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
>Senator
>Tribunus Plebis
>Dominus Factionis Veneta
>Propraetor provincialis Argentinae
>http://argentina.novaroma.org

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] The Cohors Consulis CFQ and questions
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <christer.edling@telia.com>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 01:32:34 +0100

Salve Quirites!

There has been some questions about how my Cohors really is built and
why it is so big..

These question were expected. You have already got the humorous
answer, it is all about fairy tales and You also got some serious
answers. Some citizens suggested that it is about need for
assistance, commitment, training and participation. All these are
correct, but I could write an entire articleon these themes, adding
even more arguments. But this is about answers, so here they come
(still I couldn't make it short ;-) ):

First how is it structured? Look at this map!

(If You can't recieve this map through Yahoo Groups! send for a copy
from Honorable Caius Curius Saturninus <c.curius@welho.com> who is my
Ductor Cohortis.

The Conclave is the place where all in the Cohors meet. There are
three Officinas that are specialised in different areas, just look at
Edictum Consulare CFQ I de Cohorte Consulis CFQ Constituenda (The
First Consular edict CFQ on the establishment of the Cohors Consulis
CFQ). Many Accensi have two titles, not because I like titles, but
because our Coinstitution only mentions Accensi as the assistants of
a Consul, the second title is the more descriptive title only
established in my Edictum during my term.

==================
Secondly why is it so big?

First of all because I have set high goals, I will try to achieve
them, but to do that I will need assistants.

Secondly The total number is 21 Accensi, but I would say that I in
reallity don't have that many assistants.*

In the end I guess that I will work slightly less than my whole
Cohors together. Is it wrong for a Consul to have that kind of
assistance? No, of course not, at least I don't think so!

Then why do I have this number of assistants. One reason is that they
have knowledge and competence that I don't have and another reason is
that with them at my side I probably will have to work half as much
as I would do without them. Without my Cohors I would probably not
have the strength to be a Consul, as someone said, with high
ambitions.

Of course I am aware of the fact that high ambitions and many good
assistants will not guarantee that I or anyone else will achieve
much. The only forces that can guarantee that I can achive anything
in the end are my Fellow Senators, the Co-Consul, the other
Magistrati for this year and the Populus in the Comitiae. If I don't
have the needed support there I will achieve less, even if both my
assistants and I work very hard. But I am sure that my colleague and
I will get this support and I am _very_ optimistic about the
possibilities for this year's Consuls to contribute to the
development of Nova Roma! ;-)

=================
* Please bear with me, I am going to crunch numbers just to show that
the Cohors isn't that big. My assistants are in many instances people
with full time jobs, families and houses and some are full time
students. If we don't count sleeping, eating, travelling to work,
working, caring for houses, kids, parents and so on, I would guess
that most have about one hour for personal hobbies (which Nova Roma
is to most ;-) ) per day. If my Accensi give Nova Roma half of that
time and then again half of that to my Cohors and the other half to
other activities in Nova Roma (many are Scriba to other Magistrati or
Governors too). This would give me 0,25 hour per Accensi per day
(this is probably a high number), with 21 Accensi that would be a
little more than 5 hours per day. In a normal week I guess I will
work about 4 hours per day as a Consul (I worked a little less than 3
hours per day as an Curule Aedile). As You see I probably will work
more than 75% of the time the whole Cohors is able to give to
assisting me as a Consul. I am sure that I will not be surprised to
see some of my Accensi work much more than that but, on the other
hand, some may not able to work even 0,25 hours per day, because of
personal reasons.
=============
--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] The Cohors Consulis CFQ and questions
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 2003 16:54:40 -0800

Avete Omnes et Consul Caeso Fabius,

Please bear with me on my prolonged response.
----- Original Message -----
From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 4:32 PM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] The Cohors Consulis CFQ and questions

Salve Quirites!

There has been some questions about how my Cohors really is built and
why it is so big..

Sulla: Not so much as questions but legitimate criticisms of the spoils system you have created.

These question were expected.

Sulla: I am sure they were and I am sure that your concilium prepared part of this response for you.

You have already got the humorous
answer, it is all about fairy tales and You also got some serious
answers. Some citizens suggested that it is about need for
assistance, commitment, training and participation. All these are
correct, but I could write an entire articleon these themes, adding
even more arguments. But this is about answers, so here they come
(still I couldn't make it short ;-) ):

Sulla: But we still have not been given a satisfactory answer to employ over 10% of the active Nova Roman population as part of your staff.

First how is it structured? Look at this map!

Sulla: Consul, there are no attachments on Yahoogroups.

(If You can't recieve this map through Yahoo Groups! send for a copy
from Honorable Caius Curius Saturninus <c.curius@welho.com> who is my
Ductor Cohortis.

Sulla: I already have one, thank you and it l ists 26 individuals.

The Conclave is the place where all in the Cohors meet. There are
three Officinas that are specialised in different areas, just look at
Edictum Consulare CFQ I de Cohorte Consulis CFQ Constituenda (The
First Consular edict CFQ on the establishment of the Cohors Consulis
CFQ). Many Accensi have two titles, not because I like titles, but
because our Coinstitution only mentions Accensi as the assistants of
a Consul, the second title is the more descriptive title only
established in my Edictum during my term.

Sulla: According to the chart I have, I see 26 individual:

Senator M. Municius Audens, Senator Patricia Cassia (II), Pompeia Cornelia Strabo, C. Curius Saturnius, M. Constantianus Serapio, Sex. Apollonius Scipio (II), T. Octavius Pius (II), Tib. Apollonius Cictriax, Fla. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus, L. Rutilius Minervalis, Fran. Apulius Caesar, Julillia Sempronia Magna, Emilia Curia Finnica, Lucius Salix Cicero, Arnamentia Moravia, Ti. Arminius Genalis, Gn. Equitius Marinius, Gn. Salix Galaicus, Gn. Octavius Noricus, C. Minucius Scaevola, Gaia Fabia Livia, A. Apollonius Cordus, Sp. Postimus Tubertius. WHEW done! Only three are listed in duplicate.

==================
Secondly why is it so big?

First of all because I have set high goals, I will try to achieve
them, but to do that I will need assistants.

Sulla: I understand that but still 10% of the active population of Nova Roma?

Secondly The total number is 21 Accensi, but I would say that I in
reallity don't have that many assistants.*

Sulla: Your figures are wrong Consul, its 26 with 3 duplicates.

In the end I guess that I will work slightly less than my whole
Cohors together. Is it wrong for a Consul to have that kind of
assistance? No, of course not, at least I don't think so!

Sulla: No one has claimed that it is wrong Consul. However, 26 staff members is excessive. Its overly bureaucratic and I do not see how it is necessary.

Then why do I have this number of assistants. One reason is that they
have knowledge and competence that I don't have and another reason is
that with them at my side I probably will have to work half as much
as I would do without them. Without my Cohors I would probably not
have the strength to be a Consul, as someone said, with high
ambitions.

Sulla: I must ask, where do your competencies lie then? Besides promulgating edicts to appoint people to your staff?

<Snip>

=================
* Please bear with me, I am going to crunch numbers just to show that
the Cohors isn't that big. My assistants are in many instances people
with full time jobs, families and houses and some are full time
students. If we don't count sleeping, eating, travelling to work,
working, caring for houses, kids, parents and so on, I would guess
that most have about one hour for personal hobbies (which Nova Roma
is to most ;-) ) per day. If my Accensi give Nova Roma half of that
time and then again half of that to my Cohors and the other half to
other activities in Nova Roma (many are Scriba to other Magistrati or
Governors too). This would give me 0,25 hour per Accensi per day
(this is probably a high number), with 21 Accensi that would be a
little more than 5 hours per day. In a normal week I guess I will
work about 4 hours per day as a Consul (I worked a little less than 3
hours per day as an Curule Aedile). As You see I probably will work
more than 75% of the time the whole Cohors is able to give to
assisting me as a Consul. I am sure that I will not be surprised to
see some of my Accensi work much more than that but, on the other
hand, some may not able to work even 0,25 hours per day, because of
personal reasons.
=============

Sulla: Consul you do realize that all of our previous consuls have had staff who were affected by real life events. During this past year two of my staff members, Senator Lucius Sicinius Drusus and Senator Decius Iunius Invictus both suffered deaths in their family their absence did not prevent me from doing my duties and drafting laws. I am certain that my colleague had staff members affected by prolonged illnesses as well. My point is, that you should be able to do the job yourself as well. Your statement here leads me to believe that you have appointed a large staff to balance your own inadequacies. I certainly hope that is not the case for Nova Roma sake.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

--

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Senior Consul et Senator
Propraetor Thules
Sodalitas Egressus Beneficarius et Praefectus Provincia Thules
************************************************
Cohors Consulis CFQ
http://www.insulaumbra.com/cohors_consulis_cfq/
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
Dignitas, Iustitia, Fidelitas et Pietas
Dignity, Justice, Loyalty and Dutifulness


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: appointments in the Cohors Consulis CFQ
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <hucke@cynico.net>
Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 2003 19:18:18 -0600 (CST)

Salve Senator Corneli,

> To appoint essentially useless magistrates (because according to Gn. Equtius
> the lower scribes do the work and the mid-level magistrates take the
> credit).

That was obviously a joke.

> I do not see how that encourages participation. But beyond that
> shouldn't our citizens wish to volunter their services to Rome without
> expecting a title or to be rewarded in some manner.

No one wants to do work without recognition. We're not handing out titles
like "Imperator" to anyone that asks for it; the appointed positions carry
the humble title of "Scriba" - a small compensation for the work that is
being done.

> Sulla Response: Humorous or not it is a telling remark. I remember
> last year that Propraetor Caeso Fabius had to fire at least two scribes
> for not doing their duty. How long did it take him to discover this?

Presumably he gave them a chance to improve their performance before making
the final decision.

> If those citizens still get century points for payment,
> what service did they render to deserve any payment.

Scribae do not get century points after leaving that position.

> How long will it take for Consul Caeso Fabius to realize that members i
> of his "consilium" are not doing their jobs.

So, are you saying he's incompetent to supervise appointees?

Considering how structured his staff is, I would expect that the senior
members would inform the consul if anyone they work with seems to be
useless.

> Now, since this is a "consilium" and not a government,
> should these individuals be awarded with century points?

Yes. They'll be doing work, and will get a small temporary award for
doing so.

> But to appoint someone a scribe to "motivate them" seems to cheapen the role and
> responsbility of those who held those positions prior to this army of
> bureaucrats.

Have we heard any recent scribae objecting to the new appointments?

> Sulla: What work requires the staff of 26 people or 10.8% of the entire
> active population of Nova Roma?

Considering how much he accomplished as Propraetor and Aedile, I think Consul
Fabius can judge better than anyone how much work there is to do, how many
people are required to do it, and how best to motivate them.

> In otherwords he is cheapening the position of scribes and those who held
> the position before by his poltical spoils system.

Absurd. His scribae and accensi will do just as much work as any previous
scribae or accensi.

> Sulla: Why that is what was done in Thule, where 1/3 of the province
> citizens were titled magistrates.

How many other provinciae have an Academia? Thule is a model of the *right*
way to create a provincial staff.

> Sulla: She [Diana Moravia] is a Tribune of the Plebs, it would be
> unethical for a Tribune to be in the staff of a Patrician Consul!
> How could she protect the rights of the Plebs if she is under
> oath to a Patrician Consul!

Indeed. Fortunately, Diana Moravia is not a member of either Consul's staff.

Now, as for unethical... two years ago, did not a newly elected tribune confess
to being a "client" of one of the Censores of that time, and reveal this only
after winning the election?

> Sulla: Sure and how long will it take for oversight to take place. I am
> certain that it is far easier for a Consul to surpvise 4 staff members
> than to have a Consul administer 26 staff members.

Considering how well he did with a large staff last year, I don't expect any
problems at all supervising the current group of accensi.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Censor

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] the CFQ and questions
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 2003 20:19:02 EST

In a message dated 1/2/03 4:35:43 PM Pacific Standard Time,
christer.edling@telia.com writes:

> Secondly The total number is 21 Accensi, but I would say that I in
> reallity don't have that many assistants.*
>
>

Really Consul? I got by with one scribe, and one accensus. Ah but Rome was
smaller then.
Wait! We have no idea our size until we carry out a census. And when will
that be?

Q Fabius Maximus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise Intercesso
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 01:31:16 -0000

Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise Intercesso against
Edictum Consulare CFQ II de Nominationibus in Cohorte Consulis CFQ
(The Second Consular edict CFQ II on the appointments in the Cohors
Consulis CFQ)

Whereas: The Constitution of Nova Roma guarantees the right to
appeal to the State for assistance in Article II, Section b,
subsection 7. I, Quintus Cassius Calvus, do hereby petition the
Tribunes of the Plebs to exercise their right of Intercesso against
Edictum Consulare CFQ II de Nominationibus in Cohorte Consulis CFQ
(The Second Consular edict CFQ II on the appointments in the Cohors
Consulis CFQ).

Whereas: I, Quintus Cassius Calvus, duly elected magistrate of Nova
Roma in the office of Rogator, and duly sworn to Protect and Defend
the Constitution of Nova Roma and to act in the best interests of the
Senate and People of Nova Roma as per the LEX IUNIA DE IUSIURANDO

I make this petition on the grounds that Spurius Postumius Tubertus,
appointed Petitor (Accensus Iunior) in the Officina Iuris et Rei
Politicae in Article V., subsection c. is a minor and has no legal
standing to give consent to make any oath as required in Edictum
Consulare CFQ III de Iusiurando Apparitorium (The Third Consular
Edict Concerning the Oath of Attendants/Apparitores)

I also make this petition on the grounds that Titus Arminius
Genialis, appointed Petitor (Accensus Iunior) in the Officina ad
Consuetudines et Communicationes in Article III, subsection C is a
minor and has no legal standing to give consent to make any oath as
required in Edictum Consulare CFQ III de Iusiurando Apparitorium (The
Third Consular Edict Concerning the Oath of Attendants/Apparitores)

As the two previously named individuals are minors and have no legal
standing to give consent, and I am duly sworn to protect and defend
the Senate and People of Nova Roma, I regret to make this petition.
It is my duty to protect the Senate and People of Nova Roma from
potential litigation in macronational courts of law. Requiring
oaths and appointment of minors to positions of Apparitores as
defined in the Constitution of Nova Roma Article IV, section 9.
leaves Nova Roma vulnerable to potential litigation in macronational
courts of law.

Quintus Cassius Calvus
Rogator

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: appointments in the Cohors Consulis CFQ
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 2003 20:37:25 EST

In a message dated 1/2/03 5:20:45 PM Pacific Standard Time, hucke@cynico.net
writes:

> How many other provinciae have an Academia? Thule is a model of the *right*
> way to create a provincial staff.
>

You have to be joking! What was Confucius quote, the more government
offices,
the less you accomplish?

Q. Fabius Maximus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: appointments in the Cohors Consulis CFQ II
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 2003 20:43:00 EST

In a message dated 1/2/03 5:20:45 PM Pacific Standard Time, hucke@cynico.net
writes:

> Now, as for unethical... two years ago, did not a newly elected tribune
> confess
> to being a "client" of one of the Censores of that time, and reveal this
> only
> after winning the election?
>
>

Oh yes, I remember. And the republic collapsed because of it. Really Marcus
Octavius, I know you hate historical precedent, but lots of Tribunes were
clients of Patricians in old Rome. I believe that Lucius Cornelius was
referring to a dilemma that said Tribune might find herself in if she was
still on the staff. He wanted to avoid that.

Q. Fabius Maximus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise Intercesso
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <hucke@cynico.net>
Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 2003 19:48:20 -0600 (CST)

Salve Quinte Cassi,

> Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise Intercesso against
> Edictum Consulare CFQ II de Nominationibus in Cohorte Consulis CFQ
> (The Second Consular edict CFQ II on the appointments in the Cohors
> Consulis CFQ)

Interesting. Did you approach Consul Fabius with your concerns? Or
is the first you've spoken of it? If the latter, then I'd suspect
a political motive rather than a genuine concern.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Censor

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: [ComitiaCuriata] Sample text for the vesting of Imperium
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@yahoo.es>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 02:52:16 +0100 (CET)

Cn. Salix Astur lictor curiatus Quiritibus Romanis S.P.D.

I, Gnaeus Salix Astur, Lictor Novae Romae and member of the Comitia
Curiata, hereby witness and acknowledge the passing of Imperium -- the
power to carry out elected duties and uphold the laws --to the duly
elected Nova Roma Magistrates for the year 2755 AUC. I acknowledge that
this imperium will be held both by elected and appointed magistrates in
the coming year, both on the State and Provincial level.

May the Gods and the spirit of Roma Antiqua watch over the Magistrates
of Nova Roma, and grant them the guidance and wisdom to use their
Imperium for the positive furtherance of Romanitas. May this sacred
bond bring favor upon our Nation and our Citizens in this coming year.

=====
Bene Valete in Pace Deorum!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Tribunus Plebis
Triumvir Academiae Thules
Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
Lictor Curiatus.

___________________________________________________
Yahoo! Postales
Felicita las Navidades con las postales m�s
divertidas desde http://postales.yahoo.es

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: appointments in the Cohors Consulis CFQ
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <hucke@cynico.net>
Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 2003 19:56:06 -0600 (CST)

Salve Senator Quinte Fabi,

> > How many other provinciae have an Academia? Thule is a model of the *right*
> > way to create a provincial staff.
>
> You have to be joking! What was Confucius quote, the more government
> offices, the less you accomplish?

Not at all. Confucius apparently never made it to Thule.

What other Propraetor has accomplished so much as Caeso Fabius? What other
Aedile has accomplished so much?

His outstanding record shows that having a large staff can be beneficial.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Censor

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise Intercesso
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 02:02:14 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Marcus Octavius Germanicus
<hucke@c...> wrote:

> Interesting. Did you approach Consul Fabius with your concerns? Or
> is the first you've spoken of it? If the latter, then I'd suspect
> a political motive rather than a genuine concern.
>

Salve,

I am following the procedures as defined by the Constitution of Nova
Roma. I have petitioned the Tribunes to what I see as a potential
legal liabilitity. As a Consul's Edict has the force of law, it is
neccessary to have that law either upheld or struck according to the
rule of law. I am responsible to the Senate and People of Nova Roma
as a duly elected magistrate. That responsiblity includes
transparency in following the rule of law, not through behind the
scenes machinations and back room deals.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Thanks and compliments
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?M=20Arminius=20Maior?= <marminius@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 2003 23:12:32 -0300 (ART)

Salve, Fauste, et salvete omnes

The year finished, and i am no more the Tribunus
Plebis.

Many thanks to my fellow former Tribunes, Claudius
Salix, Manius Villius and Lucius Mauricius, and
specially to Gnaeus Salix Astur, who in my opinion was
the best Tribune of last year.

I welcome the new Tribunes, Diana Moravia, Marcus
Marcius and Lucius Pompeius. Good luck in your
offices, may Ceres, favorite deity of the Plebs, help
you.

I want to thank to the Plebs and to Nova Roma for this
opportunity, and to my former Tribunician Scribe,
Lucius Arminius Faustus, for their excellent job.

Fauste will continue to be my provincial Scribe, and
now he is Quaestor, and Aedilis Plebis! My deepest
congratulations, and may the gods help you in this
year.

Valete
Marcus Arminius Maior
Senator
Propraetor Brasiliae

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <hucke@cynico.net>
Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 2003 20:17:41 -0600 (CST)

Salve Quinte Cassi,

> I am following the procedures as defined by the Constitution of Nova Roma.

Certainly; I don't dispute that.

You are within your legal rights to ask the Tribunes to veto anything
whatsoever.

While it would have been polite, considerate, and constructive to
write to the Consul directly and ask him to modify the edict, none of
those things are required by the Constitution. Instead, the Constitution
permits magistrates to make a public spectable over trivial matters if
they see fit.

> That responsiblity includes transparency in following the rule of law,
> not through behind the scenes machinations and back room deals.

Machinations? Back room deals?

It is now a "back room deal" to privately question an edict before
challenging it publically?

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Censor

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: about Q.F. Maximus antiquo on the oath as dominus factionis
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?M=20Arminius=20Maior?= <marminius@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 2003 23:24:12 -0300 (ART)

Salvete

--- Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
<danielovi@ciudad.com.ar> escreveu: > Salve Senator
Deci Iuni Palladi
[..]
> |Salve Senator L. Pompei,
> |
> ||A quick definition is all magistrates elected by
> the people or
> |appointed by the Senate. The quickest way to find
> them is to go the
> |magistrates' page linked off the main Nova Roma
> page. There you will
> |find censors, consuls, praetors, Tribunes of the
> Plebs, Aediles,
> |quaestors, Curator Differum, Curator Araneum,
> rogators, interpreters.

M.ARMINIUS: Just a small remak, the Interpretes are a
Decuria of the Apparitures, they have the same status
of the Assensi, Lictores and Scribes.

> |All these should take the oath. On the provincial
> level the governors
> |and legates should take the oath as well.
> |
> |If a magistrate feels some need for his assistants
> (accensi, scribes,
> |etc) to take an oath he is free I suppose to make
> one up for them,
> |but it shouldn't be the magistrate's oath.
[..]
> |Vale,
> |Decius Iunius Palladius
>
> Vale bene
> Lucius Pompeius Octavianus

Vale
Marcus Arminius Maior

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise Intercesso
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 02:38:18 -0000

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Marcus Octavius Germanicus
<hucke@c...> wrote:
>
> Salve Quinte Cassi,
>
> > I am following the procedures as defined by the Constitution of
Nova Roma.
>
> Certainly; I don't dispute that.
>
> You are within your legal rights to ask the Tribunes to veto
anything
> whatsoever.
>
> While it would have been polite, considerate, and constructive to
> write to the Consul directly and ask him to modify the edict, none
of
> those things are required by the Constitution. Instead, the
Constitution
> permits magistrates to make a public spectable over trivial matters
if
> they see fit.

Cut to the chase. You see this as political machinations ect. If it
were political machinations I would have PRIVATELY petitioned the
tribunes. And what office am I supposedly aspiring to next year? Oh
that's right I can't run for office next year, never mind.

An Edict is a matter of public record once issued. I have voiced
concern only two sections of the Edict. Remember that Nova Roma is
not only a "nation," it is a legal corporation subject to the
macronational laws of the political subdivision in which is it
incorporated. My petition is a matter of public record in which I
am not only attempting to protect Nova Roma from a potential legal
situation, but also protecting my own self as a magistrate of Nova
Roma. Should a legal situation arise, it is now public record that I
brought this before the internal organization of Nova Roma through
the internal structure of the corporation. I'm not only protecting
Nova Roma, I'm protecting my own wallet.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <hucke@cynico.net>
Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 2003 20:51:04 -0600 (CST)

Salve Quinte Cassi,

> Cut to the chase. You see this as political machinations ect.

Yes.

> If it were political machinations I would have PRIVATELY petitioned the
> tribunes.

If it were a legitimate concern you would have PRIVATELY petitioned the
Consul, then gone to the Tribunes only if he was uncooperative.

> And what office am I supposedly aspiring to next year? Oh
> that's right I can't run for office next year, never mind.

I can't run for office next year either. Are you and I, therefore,
both equally unable to act from political motivation?

At the very same time that one of the new Consuls has come under
attack for the size of his staff, you launch another attack on
a related subject, by trying to get the Tribunes to act against
him. You did not try to resolve the situation peacefully with the
Consul; you sought to create a conflict within the magistrates over a
trivial issue that could have easily been resolved peacefully.

> My petition is a matter of public record in which I
> am not only attempting to protect Nova Roma from a potential legal
> situation, but also protecting my own self as a magistrate of Nova
> Roma.

You are not a director or board member of this corporation, you
are a volunteer. Your exposure to liability would be insignificant -
even if there were any actual risk from this situation.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Censor

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise Intercesso
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 2003 18:52:03 -0800

Avete Omnes,

Whatever criticisms you believe that Q. Cassius had it does not take away from the merit of his request for a veto of Consul Caeso Fabius's edict. He is Consul and should realize that when you are consul your edicts and laws are under scrutiny.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: Marcus Octavius Germanicus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 6:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise Intercesso

Salve Quinte Cassi,

> Cut to the chase. You see this as political machinations ect.

Yes.

> If it were political machinations I would have PRIVATELY petitioned the
> tribunes.

If it were a legitimate concern you would have PRIVATELY petitioned the
Consul, then gone to the Tribunes only if he was uncooperative.

> And what office am I supposedly aspiring to next year? Oh
> that's right I can't run for office next year, never mind.

I can't run for office next year either. Are you and I, therefore,
both equally unable to act from political motivation?

At the very same time that one of the new Consuls has come under
attack for the size of his staff, you launch another attack on
a related subject, by trying to get the Tribunes to act against
him. You did not try to resolve the situation peacefully with the
Consul; you sought to create a conflict within the magistrates over a
trivial issue that could have easily been resolved peacefully.

> My petition is a matter of public record in which I
> am not only attempting to protect Nova Roma from a potential legal
> situation, but also protecting my own self as a magistrate of Nova
> Roma.

You are not a director or board member of this corporation, you
are a volunteer. Your exposure to liability would be insignificant -
even if there were any actual risk from this situation.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Censor


Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise Intercesso
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 03:05:18 -0000

Salve,

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Marcus Octavius Germanicus
<hucke@c...> wrote:
> Salve Quinte Cassi,
>
> > Cut to the chase. You see this as political machinations ect.
>
> Yes.

You are entitled to your opinion.

> If it were a legitimate concern you would have PRIVATELY petitioned
the
> Consul, then gone to the Tribunes only if he was uncooperative.

In other words, go behind closed doors and leave the People in the
dark? That is fine for the Senate debating proposals, laws,
appointments, and other sensative items.

> I can't run for office next year either. Are you and I, therefore,
> both equally unable to act from political motivation?

Strange you criticize me for dealing honestly, openly, and
transparently about public matters and accusing me of attempting to
create a political circus. I recall a few times that a certain
Consular now Censor more than benefited with a political circus going
on in the main list. If you recall in the great Sullan Gens Reform
Intercesso debate I consistently hen-pecked for openness and
transparency by Sulla. You were more than supportive then. Now that
I act with openness and transparency and following the law, you
condemn me? Reminds me of a story about a pot and kettle getting in
a debate about color.

> At the very same time that one of the new Consuls has come under
> attack for the size of his staff, you launch another attack on
> a related subject:

Beep! I've never said that I cared one whit if the Consuls have 4
people on their staff or a 104 people on their staff. If the Consuls
feel they need a lot of help then they should appoint at many people
as they think they need. My issue and petition deals with only two
particular persons and their status as minors.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <hucke@cynico.net>
Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 2003 21:13:41 -0600 (CST)

Salve Quinte Cassi,

> In other words, go behind closed doors and leave the People in the dark?

I do not consider it "going behind closed doors" to privately write to
a fellow magistrate with your concerns and ask him to change his policies.
It is certainly preferable to trying to goad other magistrates to act
against him.

> Strange you criticize me for dealing honestly, openly, and
> transparently about public matters and accusing me of attempting to
> create a political circus.

That is exactly what I think you are trying to do here. A Tribune's
veto should be an act of last resort, for a renegade magistrate who
is out of control. Yet you went there *first*, without making even
the slightest attempt to settle the matter amicably.

> I recall a few times that a certain Consular now Censor more than
> benefited with a political circus going on in the main list.

All of that happened *after* the issues were discussed privately, and
we had reached an impasse.

> Now that I act with openness and transparency and following the law,
> you condemn me?

Yes, I do. Your call for a veto, without first attempting to
communicate with the Consul and persuade him to your point of view,
is grossly irresponsible.

Just because something is done with "openness and transparency"
does not make it any less contemptible.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Censor

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise Intercesso
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 03:35:36 -0000

Salve,

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Marcus Octavius Germanicus
<hucke@c...> wrote:
> Salve Quinte Cassi,
>
> > In other words, go behind closed doors and leave the People in
the dark?
>
> I do not consider it "going behind closed doors" to privately write
to
> a fellow magistrate with your concerns and ask him to change his
policies.
> It is certainly preferable to trying to goad other magistrates to
act
> against him.

We obviously have a serious difference of opinion of what is public
matter and what is private. Believe it or not, I do understand where
you are coming from and why you feel the way you do. If you feel I
am in error and have acted rashly you are intitled to that opinion
and I don't hold it against you for expressing your opinion. I wish
you'd offer the same courtesy of allowing me to have my opinion.
What is done is done. I've explained my reasons, you are free to
agree, disagree, chastize, criticize, condemn, ect. The lesson I've
learned from this is thus: "Taking the course one feels is right is
not always popular."

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <hucke@cynico.net>
Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 2003 21:48:44 -0600 (CST)

Salve Quinte Cassi,

> We obviously have a serious difference of opinion of what is public
> matter and what is private.

True, and not likely to change.

> Believe it or not, I do understand where you are coming from and
> why you feel the way you do.

Thanks. Although I still think it would have been better to approach
the Consul before calling for a veto, I am beginning to see that you
do sincerely believe in your position.

A few hours ago, Consul Fabius came under attack by some citizens
(not you) regarding the size of his cabinet. When I saw your call
for Intercessio appear, this at first struck me as suspicious in its
timing - part of a coordinated assault, perhaps, an effort to attack
from two directions at once.

I no longer believe that to be the case; from your more recent messages,
I am convinced that you are sincere.

I still think it would have been better to contact him privately. I
know Caeso was awake at the beginning of this thread; a quick note to
him probably would have gotten a reply in less time than the request
for intercessio took to write.

> I wish you'd offer the same courtesy of allowing me to have my opinion.

I shall. I think that your choice of action was far from ideal - but
I accept that you had no malicious intent, and apologize for initially
making that assumption.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Censor

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise Intercesso
From:	"quintuscassiuscalvus <richmal@attbi.com>" <richmal@attbi.com>
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 04:09:21 -0000

Salve,

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Marcus Octavius Germanicus
<hucke@c...> wrote:
> Thanks. Although I still think it would have been better to
approach
> the Consul before calling for a veto, I am beginning to see that you
> do sincerely believe in your position.

I'll take that as advice and not criticism. I do apologize for not
conjugating you name properly. But I think you know from past
experiences that conjugation and proper tense is something I'm never
going to pick up. I think I've already insulted you enough tonight
to spell your name wrong.

Vale,

Q. Cassius Calvus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Editorial Board for The Eagle.
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 2003 23:35:25 -0500

Salve

Sorry to break up a good fight (and only the SECOND day of the new year) but on to some other topic.

A question can the Curator Differium change (for NEW subscriptions only on or after January 1 2756) the current price of 12.00 per year?

I know that you are as tried of me asking as I am of doing so. So for the Last time and in as nice a voice as I can muster. PLEASE, PLEASE SEND IN ANYTHING THAT WAS PROMISED OR AT LEAST ASKED FOR THE JANUARY EAGLE.

FINALY I would invite any and all citizens who live (or who happen to be in town visiting) in the metro WASHINGTON D.C. area to join me at the Taverna ( a REAL ONE not cyber space). The purpose of the meeting is to give you a sneak peek of the JANUARY EAGLE AND GET YOUR COMMENTS. This will take place on MONDAY JANUARY 6TH in the Stamp Student Union of The University of Maryland in College Park. We will meet in the front lobby, at 6:00 PM ( For those who come after 6:00 pm we will leave a note at the desk )and proceed to the Taverna of choice. Those that show up shall be members of the Eagle Editorial Board. ( I will buy some appetizers for those that show up. a RSVP so I know how many to expect is appreciated.

Vale

Tiberius Galerius Paulinus
Curator Differium et Quaestor
Fortuna Favet Fortibus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] About Accensi and Scribae
From:	<3s@hsk-net.de>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 01:37:48 -0600 (CST)

Caius Flavius Diocletianus Censor Quiritibus S.P.D.

Now, the newly elected Consuls appointed their staff ("cabinet") members, a variety and large number of accensi. This raised some critical voices about that issue.

We should not forget that the Consuls are empowered by the Consitution to appoint their assistants, and that there�s no limit for the numbers of assistants.

I must admit that I was surprised to see the number of assistants appointed, and I don�t see the necessity of such a large staff. Large bureaucracies are normally no guarantee for proper government work, there are enough examples for this. This, btw., doesn�t mean that I think that our consuls won�t work properly.

However, both Consuls act on the ground of the Consitution. They have to manage their staff, which will be not an easy task with such a number of assistants. Caeso Fabius Quintilianus made a fine work as Aedile with a similar large cabinet, and it shouldn�t be forgotten that the employment as assistant is a fine opportunity to collect experiences in administration.

I would like to appeal to all citizens to judge about our consuls by their work and not by their numbers of assistants.

Bene Vale
Caius Flavius Diocletianus
Censor, Senator

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: appointments in the Cohors Consulis CFQ
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 03:09:18 EST

In a message dated 1/2/03 5:56:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, hucke@cynico.net
writes:

> What other
> Aedile has accomplished so much?
>

Oh I don't know. Gryllus and I did pretty well in the 5 months we were in
charge of the games.
Put on 4 Gladiator Bouts, 1 chariot race, and organized an online campaign.
And there
was two of us. I didn't even have a scribe.

Q. Fabius Maximus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] About the intercessio
From:	"Laureatus Armoricus" <laureatusarmoricus@tiscali.co.uk>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 08:12:25 -0000

Salvete,

For what I have read so far Quintus Cassius has a point. Perhaps we could
have expert advice from dedicated lawyers before we can comment on the issue
of minors serving as accensi : Does the oath for accensi really entail
responsability as far as macronational law is concerned ?
Whatever the next course of action and before the Tribunes take side, I
believe it would be beneficial to hear the people concerned (both the
accensi iunores and both consules). On this particular point I agree with
the Honourable Marcus Octavius that the matter could have been at the very
least publicly discussed before an intercessio had to be sought.

Optime Valete

Moravius Laureatus

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Cohors Consulis
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 09:52:26 +0100

Salve L Cornelius Sulla,

<Sulla: She is a Tribune of the Plebs, it would be unethical for a <Tribune
to be in the staff of a Patrician Consul! How could she <protect the rights
of the Plebs if she is under oath to a Patrician <Consul!

Huh? You are confusing me with my gensmate Arnamentia Moravia.

But I was indeed the Moravia who supported C Fabius in his Consul election,
so I am glad that you brought this up now. Rather sooner or later. Ever
since I won the election for Tribunis Plebis, I have been 'cut off'
politically from the C Fabius team specifically because it is unethical if
we maintain contact. My emails (if any) with the ex-campaign team have not
had anything to do with Nova Roma politics at all.

I could never have been in the Cohors Consulis even if only to be a
"Surprise Party Organizer" because I could not have taken their oath: to act
in the 'best interests of Caeso Fabius Quintilianus' because that would not
necessarily reflect the best interests of the people, whom I and my
colleagues represent.

Vale,
Diana Moravia Aventina

Diana Moravia Aventina
Tribunis Plebis

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Intercessio of the Aedilship - Re: Petition to the Plebian Tribunes
From:	"Lucius Arminius Faustus <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>" <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 09:36:27 -0000

Salve,

As Senior Plebeian Aedile, empowered to work on behalf of the
plebeain interests as well, I must disagree with this statement
bellow about fellow plebeains to plebeian magistrates.

>
> I also make this petition on the grounds that Titus Arminius
> Genialis, appointed Petitor (Accensus Iunior) in the Officina ad
> Consuetudines et Communicationes in Article III, subsection C is a
> minor and has no legal standing to give consent to make any oath as
> required in Edictum Consulare CFQ III de Iusiurando Apparitorium
(The
> Third Consular Edict Concerning the Oath of Attendants/Apparitores)
>
> As the two previously named individuals are minors and have no
legal
> standing to give consent, and I am duly sworn to protect and defend
> the Senate and People of Nova Roma, I regret to make this
petition.

This is a misunderstanding of the law. The under 18 citizens can have
positions like acensus et scriba (apparitores) without trouble. They
simple have no century points. The problem is for elected
magistracies.

They can swear everything they can, alas, the new oath of acensus is
done for that.

So I make a public appeal to the fellow plebeain Tribunes to not care
about this misunderstanding.

Vale,
L. Arminius Faustus
Plebeain Aedile

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Intercessio of the Aedilship - Re: Petition to the Plebian Tr...
From:	qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 05:22:47 EST

In a message dated 1/3/03 1:38:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,
lafaustus@yahoo.com.br writes:

> This is a misunderstanding of the law. The under 18 citizens can have
> positions like acensus et scriba (apparitores) without trouble. They
> simple have no century points. The problem is for elected
> magistracies.
>

Interesting. So you are saying the constitution allows under age citizens to
be employed by NR? Really? I think you better go back and read your Vedian,
Aedile.

Q. Fabius Maximus

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Subject:	RE: [Nova-Roma] Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise Intercesso
From:	"Diana Moravia Aventina" <diana@pandora.be>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 11:50:05 +0100

Salve Quintus Cassius Calvus,

Thank you for pointing out that 2 of the members of the Caeso Fabius
Quintilianus Cohors Consulis are under 18 years of age. I support your right
to do so.

I also support the Senior Consul's right "to appoint accensi (personal
assistants), to assist with administative and other taks, as he shall see
fit" as mentioned in IV.2.e. of our Constitution.

As this is my third day of holding the office of Tribunis Plebis, I hesitate
greatly to exercise intercesio on any edict, much less so on one made by our
new Senior Consul.

Our Plebeian Aedile, L. Arminius Faustus wrote:
"This is a misunderstanding of the law. The under 18 citizens can have
positions like acensus et scriba (apparitores) without trouble."

Of this I am not so sure. My 'understanding' has always been that under 18
citizens could not hold any office in NR whether it be by election or
appointment. This is not to say that I do not think that anyone under age is
not capable or mature enough to hold any position: it is just that these are
our rules and we should not bend them or break them as the mood takes us.

But if it is indeed against our Constitution for someone under 18 to hold an
office in Nova Roma, then I ask Senior Consul Caeso Fabius Quintilianus,
without prejudice to amend his edict, removing these 2 young men from his
Cohors Consulis and to appoint 2 other citizens in their place. This would
make any intercessio unnecessary.

That said, I am speaking only for myself and not my fellow Tribunes.

Valete,
Diana Moravia Aventina
Tribunis Plebis

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Some remarks from an outside perspective
From:	"M. Octavius Solaris" <scorpioinvictus@hotmail.com>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 12:28:05 +0100

Salvete Quirites Novae Romae!

Unbelievable and amazing! This is January 3 and already acerbic and pointless debates appear to be resurfacing. So much for a Happy New Year. While I'm still happily eating the lamb burgers Agricola has been providing me with, please allow me to make a few remarks.

It seems that our good consul, Caeso Fabius, is under attack here because of his tendency to "edictify" everything and to have a massive staff during each tenure of office. Sulla raised a valid concern about inactive staff members; they get fired but they get those century points anyway. However, as they are only scribae, those evil people won't really gain much with it. And guess what? If they are inactive, they won't vote anyway. So the problem actually solves itself.

Secondly. Both in Thule and during his year as Aedilis, Caeso has proven that working with a big staff can be useful. He is being criticised by Quintus Fabius on this. I find it ironic that a man who has done almost nothing during his various tenures of high offices should criticise his ten times superior on that field on the account that a large staff *may* be unworkable. The underlying idea is that Sulla and Q. Fabius are viewing Caeso as a political opponent in the form of an octopus with 21 tentacles in the form of accensi.

Quoting Q. Fabius: "I got by with one scribe, and one accensus." Of course you did, because you didn't really do much. I wonder if your scriba ever got to lay his hands on some concrete work. And Sulla supports Q. Cassius' petition to pronounce intercessio. Why? Why in the gods' name bar an energetic, honest, good-natured and hard-working man from doing his job and proving he'll be doing it fine? Again, the faction centered around Sulla and co see their own petty power interests at stake by the potential threat Caeso is posing for their own positions.

And a note for Q. Cassius. Actually, I don't think you acted from political motivations. At one point in Nova Roma's history, I made a similar mistake and the outcry was enormous. Yes, basically you are right in striving for "openness". But openness is something like honesty. Too much honesty can sometimes be very destructive. If there's someone you're going out with whose breath stinks, you might turn to his best friends or trusted relatives to ask them why or how and what. If you go telling that person "hey, your breath really stinks" this will be more offensive and less effective than trying a more diplomatic solution. Diplomacy, relations and politics are no linear systems.

Q. Fabius on the whole issue of - gasps - minor scribes: "Interesting. So you are saying the constitution allows under age citizens to
be employed by NR? Really? I think you better go back and read your Vedian, Aedile." Yes it does, actually. When I was 17 I was hired as scribe and legatus by my propraetor. And there is an option in the Lex Vedia de Magistratuum Aetate that provides for underage candidates to be accepted as a candidate for a position in Nova Roma.

Then Sulla goes on raising a "concern" about Diana Moravia who could possibly be in league with Caeso as a tribuna. Whoever said that consules and tribuni *need* to be opponents? Besides, I think Sulla's memory is working improperly here. A few years back we had a tribunus named Gnaeus Tarquinius Caesar, whose only action was blocking an intercessio against an edict of Sulla's from his colleague, Lucius Sergius. I think Diana Moravia did the right thing. She's not part of his staff and was not part of his campaign team. That shows her good will.

Some people here might do well not to make mountains out of molehills. It's petty and unconstructive.

Valete bene!
M. Octavius Solaris

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Investment of Imperium
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Decimus=20Iunius=20Silanus?= <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 11:41:05 +0000 (GMT)

I, Decimus Iunius Silanus, Lictor Novae Romae and
member of the Comitia Curiata, hereby witness and
acknowledge the
passing of Imperium -- the power to carry out elected
duties and uphold
the laws --to the duly elected Nova Roma Magistrates
for the year 2756
AUC. I acknowledge that this imperium will be held
both by elected and appointed magistrates in the
coming year, both on the State and Provincial level.

May the Gods and the spirit of Roma Antiqua watch over
the Magistrates
of Nova Roma, and grant them the guidance and wisdom
to use their
Imperium for the positive furtherance of Romanitas.
May this sacred bond
bring favor upon our Nation and our Citizens in this
coming year.

Valete,

Decimus Iunius Silanus
Lictor

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise Intercesso
From:	"William Rogers <wlr107@yahoo.com>" <wlr107@yahoo.com>
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 12:40:47 -0000

Well, well, well....it actually took three days for the first
arguement over something fairly insignificant to his the board! WOW!

Personally, while I may agree with the idea of going to the COnsul
first, the LAW has been followed. I personally feel if you have a
PERSONAL question to ask someone...please write to THE INDIVIDUAL
directly.

I am still new here at Nova Roma. We ALL have our own reasons for
being here, our own goals we hope to accomplish here, we are human
beings.

How about a NEW concept this year? WOW! We actually try to FOCUS ON
WHAT IS IMPORTANT, and leave the personal issues behind! WOW! If I
want lies and deciet, all I have to do is cut on my television!

I respect both individuals here, and this is NOT an attack on either
one, I promise. What we need to do is FOCUS on achieving our goals,
and try to be more kind to each other while working toward those
goals!

Publius Tarquitius Rufus

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Marcus Octavius Germanicus
<hucke@c...> wrote:
>
> Salve Quinte Cassi,
>
> > I am following the procedures as defined by the Constitution of
Nova Roma.
>
> Certainly; I don't dispute that.
>
> You are within your legal rights to ask the Tribunes to veto
anything
> whatsoever.
>
> While it would have been polite, considerate, and constructive to
> write to the Consul directly and ask him to modify the edict, none
of
> those things are required by the Constitution. Instead, the
Constitution
> permits magistrates to make a public spectable over trivial matters
if
> they see fit.
>
> > That responsiblity includes transparency in following the rule
of law,
> > not through behind the scenes machinations and back room deals.
>
> Machinations? Back room deals?
>
> It is now a "back room deal" to privately question an edict before
> challenging it publically?
>
> Vale, Octavius.
>
> --
> Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Censor

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Petition to the Plebian Tribunes to exercise Intercesso
From:	"Manius Constantinus Serapio <mcserapio@yahoo.it>" <mcserapio@yahoo.it>
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 13:09:00 -0000

AVETE DIANA MORAVIA AVENTINA ET QVINTE CASSI CALVE

> But if it is indeed against our Constitution for someone under 18
to hold an
> office in Nova Roma, then I ask Senior Consul Caeso Fabius
Quintilianus,
> without prejudice to amend his edict, removing these 2 young men
from his
> Cohors Consulis and to appoint 2 other citizens in their place.
This would
> make any intercessio unnecessary.

Against the Constitution? Well, just to be sure I re-read of
constitution and found nothing preventing magistrates from appointing
someone under 18 to the rank of scriba or accensus.
I also re-read the Lex Vedia apparitoria: nothing.
I read the Lex de Magistratuum Aetate (even though I know that
scribae and accensi are apparitores): nothing.

Therefore, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus' Edictum doesn't break any law,
and I see no reason for asking for an intercessio.

If I am wrong, I would ask Quintus Cassius Calvus to quote the
paragraph of the Constitution (or of any other Nova Roman law) he is
referring to.

Thank you.

Respectfully,
BENE VALETE
MANIVS-CONSTANTINVS-SERAPIO
Quaestor

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Oath of Office - Quaestor
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Decimus=20Iunius=20Silanus?= <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 13:27:33 +0000 (GMT)

Oath of Office.

I, Decimus Iunius Silanus - Daniel Edwards, do hereby
solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and
to act always in the best interests of the people and
the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Decimus Iunius
Silanus - Daniel Edwards swear to honor the Gods and
Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue
the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Decimus Iunius Silanus - Daniel Edwards swear to
uphold and defend the Religio Romana as the State
Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a way
that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Decimus Iunius Silanus - Daniel Edwards swear to
protect and defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Decimus Iunius Silanus - Daniel Edwards further
swear to fulfill the obligations and responsibilities
of the office of quaestor to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the
presence of the Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people
and by their will and favor, do I accept the position
of quaestor and all the rights, privileges,
obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.

Valete

Decimus Iunius Silanus.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Intercessio of the Aedilship - Re: Petition to the Plebian Tr...
From:	"Lucius Arminius Faustus <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>" <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 13:29:01 -0000

Salve,

Dearest Senator, Flavius Vedius had a scriba of 17 years!

Yes, I�m saying. You can be employed by the Res Publica, since
nominated (at provincial level too). And I will say more, underage
citizens are actually the soul of that times. Since they got NO
century points, what is the problem? Since the impuberes where
LEGALLY approved to gain citizenship, they have all rights, this says
the Constitution (I translated all). Since I haven�t saw none elected
to a magistracy against the law of ages (like the first
misundertanded election of Constantinus Serapio as quaestor) again,
what is the problem???

(And I�m very envious of Fabius Quintilianus, who has got a so
capable citizen like Arminius Genialis as scriba before me!)

I just want to make everyone know that I HAVEN`T vetoed the appeal of
Cassius Nerva, I just made another appeal, under the Aedilship, to
the fellow tribunes not consider that a valid argument.

Vale,
L. Arminius Fautus
Senior Plebeian Aedile

--- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, qfabiusmaxmi@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 1/3/03 1:38:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> lafaustus@y... writes:
>
>
> > This is a misunderstanding of the law. The under 18 citizens can
have
> > positions like acensus et scriba (apparitores) without trouble.
They
> > simple have no century points. The problem is for elected
> > magistracies.
> >
>
> Interesting. So you are saying the constitution allows under age
citizens to
> be employed by NR? Really? I think you better go back and read
your Vedian,
> Aedile.
>
> Q. Fabius Maximus
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Intercessio of the Aedilship - Re: Petition to the Plebian Tr...
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Decimus=20Iunius=20Silanus?= <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 13:33:35 +0000 (GMT)

Salve

>I just want to make everyone know that I HAVEN`T
>vetoed the appeal of Cassius Nerva....

Perhaps you mean Cassius Calvus?

Decimus Iunius Silanus.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Help with name needed.
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Decimus=20Iunius=20Silanus?= <danedwardsuk@yahoo.co.uk>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 13:46:07 +0000 (GMT)

Salvete,

An individual has made an enquiry about the name
'Xavier', it's roots and heritage. Can anyone help,
specifically whether this name was used in ancient
times.

Valete

Decimus Iunius Silanus
Scriba Censoris.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: appointments in the Cohors Consulis CFQ
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 08:59:03 -0500

Robert E. Heinlein

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Help with name needed.
From:	"Gaius Basilicatus Agricola" <jlasalle@kc.rr.com>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 07:58:51 -0600

XAVIER m English, French, Portuguese
Pronounced: ZAY-vee-ur, ZAY-vyur, ig-ZAY-vee-ur
Derived from the Basque place name Etxabier meaning "the new house". Saint Francis Xavier was the Jesuit priest who popularized the name. He was a missionary to India, Japan, China, and other areas in eastern Asia. He is the patron saint of the Orient and missionaries.

The Law Office of James L. LaSalle
417 East 13th Street
Kansas City, Missouri 64106
(816).471.2111
(816).510.0072(cell)
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The information contained in this e-mail message is attorney privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender by using the contact information in the "reply to" field above and return the original message to the sender. Thank you.
----- Original Message -----
From: Decimus Iunius Silanus
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 7:46 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Help with name needed.

Salvete,

An individual has made an enquiry about the name
'Xavier', it's roots and heritage. Can anyone help,
specifically whether this name was used in ancient
times.

Valete

Decimus Iunius Silanus
Scriba Censoris.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: appointments in the Cohors Consulis CFQ
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 09:08:06 -0500

>From F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to those concerned. Salvete.

The organization of the Cohors Consulis CFQ is fairly standard for most political departments in the executive sections of government world-wide. The noble consul recruited citizens who he felt shared similar views to his views for the purposes outlined in his plan for the coming year. I cannot speak for my fellows in the cohors but I am glad to be part of something that will forward the development of NR. In regards to credit, all efforts go to the Republic. Vivat Nova Roma!

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Intercessio of the Aedilship - Re: Petition to the Plebian Tr...
From:	"Lucius Arminius Faustus <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>" <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 14:13:53 -0000

Yes! Ops, I�m very sorry!

L. Arminius Faustus

-- In Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com, Decimus Iunius Silanus
<danedwardsuk@y...> wrote:
> Salve
>
> >I just want to make everyone know that I HAVEN`T
> >vetoed the appeal of Cassius Nerva....
>
> Perhaps you mean Cassius Calvus?
>
> Decimus Iunius Silanus.
>
> __________________________________________________
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> Everything you'll ever need on one web page
> from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: appointments in the Cohors Consulis CFQ
From:	"Stephen Gallagher" <spqr753@msn.com>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 09:14:45 -0500

Salve Dear cousin and congratr on appoint to Cohors Consulis CFQ. What I realy want to know and the MILLIONS of readers of the Eagle are dieing to see is YOUR article on ROMAN cooking. I have titled the Coulmn "Hay Roman, what cooking"

Tiberius

----- Original Message -----
From: PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 9:09 AM
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Re: appointments in the Cohors Consulis CFQ

>From F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to those concerned. Salvete.

The organization of the Cohors Consulis CFQ is fairly standard for most political departments in the executive sections of government world-wide. The noble consul recruited citizens who he felt shared similar views to his views for the purposes outlined in his plan for the coming year. I cannot speak for my fellows in the cohors but I am glad to be part of something that will forward the development of NR. In regards to credit, all efforts go to the Republic. Vivat Nova Roma!

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] A personal response to L. Cornelius Sulla Felix
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 09:17:31 -0500

>From F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to the Illustrious L. Cornelius Sulla Felix. Salve.

I am not serving the Consul and the Republic for points. We serve at the discretion of the Consul and he serves by the will of the People of the Republic. One cannot separate the wheat from the chaff until the labor has begun. May the gods grant you good fortune. Vale.

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Subject:	[Nova-Roma] Re: Thanks and compliments
From:	"Lucius Arminius Faustus <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>" <lafaustus@yahoo.com.br>
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 14:26:23 -0000

Salve, Maior Maximus!

> The year finished, and i am no more the Tribunus
> Plebis.

Faustus: You have my fully support for praetor!

> I want to thank to the Plebs and to Nova Roma for this
> opportunity, and to my former Tribunician Scribe,
> Lucius Arminius Faustus, for their excellent job.
>
> Fauste will continue to be my provincial Scribe, and
> now he is Quaestor, and Aedilis Plebis! My deepest
> congratulations, and may the gods help you in this
> year.

Faustus: Yes... thanks a lot, Arminius Maior, my paterfamilias, a
really PATER in all meanings about my growing on NR.

Sometimes I get on my chair and see that two titles and my belly gets
cold, thinking on the responsabilities and duties. May the goddess
Concordia, who above all I worship on my lararium, Queen Minerva and
Supplier Vulcanus, help me.

When I see the quaestoirship I see the mirror image of the aedilship,
when I face the aedilship I see the speculum of the quaestorship.
Like the two faces of Ianus Pater.

And the future? I�m the only quaestor for the South Hemisfere! We
have a tradition of great games for the aedil. The translations, oh,
my dearest translations, how I miss making it on that hard
professional times!

And a eternal homework, dearest Maior, growing NR on provincial
level. That is the 13th work of Hercules, our work.

I�m fullfilled of glories. Now just the heroic epic of daily silent
alone work waits us, magistrates.

L. Arminius Faustus

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Intercessio of the Aedilship - Re: Petition to the Plebian Tr...
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 06:31:02 -0800

Ave,

Actually, Accensus do get century points as do scribes based on section IV. A. 9 of the Constitution and the Lex Vedia Centuriatia (http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/1999-11-21-iv.html). So having 26 members of a staff is rewarding them century points. Please go back and review.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

----- Original Message -----
From: qfabiusmaxmi@aol.com
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 2:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Nova-Roma] Intercessio of the Aedilship - Re: Petition to the Plebian Tr...

In a message dated 1/3/03 1:38:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,
lafaustus@yahoo.com.br writes:

> This is a misunderstanding of the law. The under 18 citizens can have
> positions like acensus et scriba (apparitores) without trouble. They
> simple have no century points. The problem is for elected
> magistracies.
>

Interesting. So you are saying the constitution allows under age citizens to
be employed by NR? Really? I think you better go back and read your Vedian,
Aedile.

Q. Fabius Maximus

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Pax, fellow citizens.
From:	PADRUIGTHEUNCLE@aol.com
Date:	Fri, 03 Jan 2003 09:45:26 -0500

>From F. Galerius Aurelianus Secundus to M. Octavius Germanicus and Q. Cassius Calvus. Salvete.

Pax, good sirs, pax! M. Octavius Germanicus has correctly pointed out that Q. Cassius Calvus has correctly adhered to the laws and Constitution of the Republic. Correct? The laws of the Republic are part of the glory and beauty of NR just as were the laws of AR. Q. Cassius has acted as his office and his honor required him to do so by the laws as written. De iure versus de facto. Let us praise the magistrate who does his task rather than slight him. Let every citizens support the Republic by good works and the Virtues. May Concordia grant peace and happiness to us all in the new year. Valete.

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Intercessio of the Aedilship - Re: Petition to the
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <hucke@cynico.net>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 08:53:45 -0600 (CST)

Salve Senator Corneli,

> Actually, Accensus do get century points as do scribes based on
> section IV. A. 9 of the Constitution and the Lex Vedia Centuriatia
> (http://www.novaroma.org/tabularium/leges/1999-11-21-iv.html).
> So having 26 members of a staff is rewarding them century points.

Yes, for the current year, they do get this small reward. The points
evaporate at the end of the year.

For the minors who are scribae, the points are irrelevant, as they
cannot vote and thus are not placed in any century.

Vale, Octavius.

--
Marcus Octavius Germanicus, Censor

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Subject:	Re: [Nova-Roma] Some remarks from an outside perspective - not
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@earthlink.net>
Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 2003 06:54:02 -0800

LOL I just gotta say I loved your subject. You are such an outside perspective, M. Octavius.

Vale,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: M. Octavius Solaris
To: Nova-Roma@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 3:28 AM
Subject: [Nova-Roma] Some remarks from an outside perspective

Salvete Quirites Novae Romae!

<Snip>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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