Forum Romanum


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] New Sacerdos Mars Invictus!
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 02:08:47 +0200

Salve Honorable Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura!

Honorable Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura, congratulations to Your appointment
as Sacerdos of Mars Invictus!

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
Join the Main List for Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
Join the List for the Thule Provincia in Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ThuleNovaRoma/join
************************************************
The homepage of the Nova Roma Provincia Thule:
http://www.acc.umu.se/~kerish/novaroma/main.html
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
Caeso, he who also is known as Christer Edling.
************************************************
Using a keyboard that don't want to make L! :-(
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] Oath of Office
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Mon, 14 May 2001 17:59:26 -0700 (PDT)

I, Caius Curius Saturninus (Mikko Sillanpaa) do hereby solemnly swear
to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best
interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Caius Curius Saturninus (Mikko
Sillanpaa) swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public
dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private
life.

I, Caius Curius Saturninus (Mikko Sillanpaa) swear to uphold and
defend the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and
swear never to act in a way that would threaten its status as the
State Religion.

I, Gnaeus Salix Astur (Rodrigo Álvarez) swear to protect and defend the
Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Gnaeus Salix Astur (Rodrigo Álvarez) further swear to fulfill
the obligations and responsibilities of the office of Scriba ad Res
Externas Academia Thules to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor,
do I accept the position of Scriba ad Res Externas Academia Thules and
all the rights, privileges, obligations, and responsibilities
attendant thereto.

=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Civis romanus.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] Oath of Office (corrected)
From:	"Gnaeus Salix Astur" <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 01:07:00 -0000

Avete quirites.

Please forgive me for my mistake in my previous message. I hereby
correct it.

I, Gnaeus Salix Astur (Rodrigo Álvarez) do hereby solemnly swear
to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best
interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Gnaeus Salix Astur (Rodrigo Álvarez)
swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings,
and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Gnaeus Salix Astur (Rodrigo Álvarez) swear to uphold and
defend the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and
swear never to act in a way that would threaten its status as the
State Religion.

I, Gnaeus Salix Astur (Rodrigo Álvarez) swear to protect and
defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Gnaeus Salix Astur (Rodrigo Álvarez) further swear to fulfill
the obligations and responsibilities of the office of Scriba ad Res
Externas Academiae Thules to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor,
do I accept the position of Scriba ad Res Externas Academiae Thules
and all the rights, privileges, obligations, and responsibilities
attendant thereto.

Gnaeus Salix Astur.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Congratulations!
From:	"Lucius Salix Cicero" <lscicero@-------->
Date:	Mon, 14 May 2001 23:02:44 +0200

Avete....
I've seen that new people or new ideas were shot down on this
list...I've heard the dead
silence when someone speak against some generally accepted views or
the views some thought
as 'generally accepted'!...but congratulations!There is always
something new on this list!
This is the first time I've ever seen that someone made fun of
just because English isn't his
native language!
If taxes will help us to be more civil besides paying for the
expenses of our
magistrates...I'll pay!
Valete bene...

Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion

I agree with you entirely, very well said.

Valete

Lucius Salix Cicero

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] SUPPORT OUR REPUBLIC - "YES" TO TAXES! (was Re: NO TAXES !!!!)
From:	TSardonicus@--------
Date:	Mon, 14 May 2001 22:50:50 EDT

In a message dated 5/14/01 1:31:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
kristoffer.from@-------- writes:

> I know I agreed not to debate this issue any further, so therefore I
> must apologize to Lucius Tiberius Sardonicus for doing so. I'm sorry, I
> just couldn't help myself.

Salve!

The only agreement that I would hold you to, is the one in which you and I
agreed to disagree. Debate away, my friend :)

Vale,
LTS

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Soldiers should be exempt!
From:	TSardonicus@--------
Date:	Mon, 14 May 2001 23:22:23 EDT

In a message dated 5/14/01 4:42:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
legioix@-------- writes:

> Since soldiers are already in the pay of the STATE they should be exempt
from
> taxes.
>

Salve,

Sometime during my seventh year in the military, I wrote letters to my
congressmen expressing very much the same sentiment. The answer? I will
paraphrase a bit:

Thank you very much for your letter. Now, quit being silly.

Vale,
LTS

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: NO TAXES !!!!
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 05:13:50 +0200

M. Apollonius Formosanus omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D.

Petrus Artorius Longinus has spoken out eloquently against taxes
(eloquently despite the linguistic tyranny that forces him to use
English - by which I mean the hegemonic tendencies of English in the
world, *not* the specific policy on this list). I am not 100% against
taxes as he is, but I think that his voice is representative of a lot
of cives slightly less forthright and energetic than he, and I think
we must listen carefully.

There are some people who want to make Nova Roma stronger
organisationally through forced payments (taxes/dues). They have some
good arguments on their side. However, there are many people, who are
perhaps less active or who simply did not sign up for that, who have
doubts about the urgency or desirability of this. Many of them must
feel rather pushed or tugged along by the tax-enthusiasts in a
disagreeable manner.

It is well noted that if the Lex Vedia takes effect, in the future
those who have problems of any kind with paying will have their
political voice through voting greatly reduced and be unable to serve
in most magistracies, where they might otherwise be influential in
setting tax and budgetary policies. Thus they would have relatively
little influence in getting taxes lowered or assessed more fairly if
necessary. The result would be a reduction in the political feedback
to the taxation system, and once this is locked into place, it will
grow ever more difficult to correct unfairnesses felt mostly by the
politically weakened and sometimes poor. In a healthy political
system the rights of the weakest should be guarded so that they can
protect themselves, also being the most vulnerable. This bill does
the opposite.

The main value of taxation from the standpoint of justice and
political openness is that it would enable even the poorest civis to
run for and hold an office with rather high necessary expenditures
connected with it. However, since the poorest are deliberately
excluded from the possibility of serving by the proposed Lex Vedia,
there is a bit of a contradiction between the intended benefit of
taxation and not permitting those who might need the help from it
*most* to serve Nova Roma in office.

I also think it strange that we are being asked to approve how
non-tax-payers are dealt with before we see the exact amount of the
taxes, the method of adjusting for different personal incomes, and
the adjustment mechanism between radically different national
economies, as well as the practicality of the means of payment
offered. I would like to know all the other things *first* myself.
Maybe some of them will be so bad that I would not want to do
anything to non-payers!

My feeling is that the enthusiasts for a tax are pressing it ahead a
bit more quickly than need be. The right time for taxes might be in
another three or so years, after the whole debate and our society
have matured more. I would first like to see:

1) A society no longer oligarchically dominated by a very few. When
we have a firm rejection of measures abusive of the individual and
minorities such as the first two on the current ballot, and when we
see much more new blood of diverse political opinions in the top six
magistracies, and when we see real leadership by the Tribunes and
vigorous ly independent Plebeian institutions, it will be easier to
feel enthusiastic about putting money into the leadership's hands.
Justice first, taxes afterwards.

2) Provisions written into the Constitution that the tax rates and
collection mechanism together with the main budget be approved in the
Comitia Populi Tributa annually. (Presently the Senate has the whole
taxing power and makes the budget. That is taxation without
representation, as the Senate is not intended to be a
representational body.)

3) A clear and fair principle for adjusting the tax to income -
perhaps something simple like 0.1% of one's gross income.

4) Collection methods that penalise no one, without assuming that we
all have personal chequing accounts, credit/debit cards, or
affordable individual means of sending cash abroad, etc.

5) Better certainty that the whole taxation method will be legal
under U.S. law, and mechanisms in place to guarantee the honesty and
reliability of all who will handle the money.

6) Decentralisation, with more collection and spending power in the
hands of the provinces, with democratic mechanisms for allocating the
money on the provincial level. (Sending all our money to the U.S. is
not very popular in other parts of the world...)

7) Means of dealing with non-payers that would not widen social or
political divisions in Nova Roma.

If those conditions were met, I would rather favour a reasonable tax
in a couple of years' time.

In conclusion, I would like to reply to Serena's response to
Longinus' letter:

From: "JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->

<snip>

Perhaps I am cynical, but I am always suspicious of anyone who....as
"rabotnik" did....joins the NR Main List and *less* then 5 minutes
later posts a message such as his. No introduction, no discussion,
just a "blast".

<snip>

Vale,
Priscilla Vedia Serena

REPONDEO: He has a good and proper Roman name: Petrus Artorius
Longinus - since when do we address people by their e-mail addresses,
giving them a foreign look, when he announced his Roman name clearly
and completely in his letter?

"Robotnik" in Polish means "worker", and certainly Longinus is a
worker for Nova Roma: he has induced a number of people to become
citizens (which he as a Polish speaker can do better than I can
here), and he has been the motive force behind the project to create
the Provincia Venedia for Poland, in which I am collaborating (and
upon which we hope the Senate will act swiftly and favourably...:-).
He is also my Scriba Aedilicius, and therefore at least a minor
member of the central government - not some quasi-outsider as
implied. Nor is he by any means inactive, as someone else seemed to
infer.

If he signed up to the Main List specifically to speak out about
something he feels passionately about, that is no crime. People who
do not know English well find it difficult to get much advantage from
an all-English list, so why would he necessarily sign up for a list
provincially American in its language, even if it is billed as the
"Main List"? He previously was active on the Venedia and Vizantia
lists, where Polish is welcome. If he seems to have delivered a
"blast", I urge it to be remembered that to express oneself with
nuances in a foreign language one does not know fairly well is
sometimes a bit difficult.

Thus, if Longinus proposes to us forcefully that some people are
pushing ahead faster with the tax thing than most of us in Europe (as
I read our opinion) would prefer, and if he prefers a people-based,
not money-based, approach to getting things done for Nova Roma, it
should give us cause to stop and consider, not cause us to think of
him only as a thoughtless obstructionist. Indeed, I agree that a
low-budget, people-oriented Nova Roma would be more like what I would
like to see Nova Roma be too.

Valete!

_________________________________________________
Marcus Apollonius Formosanus, Aedilis Plebeius Novae Romae
Amicus Dignitatis; Scriba Censorius
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Magister Scholae Latinae
Moderator Indicis protoprovincialis NR_Venediae
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
Minervium Virtuale: http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/Minervium.htm
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
____________________________________________________
Memento Idus Martias - Remember the Ides of March.
____________________________________________________

All that is needed for the forces of evil to triumph in the world is for
enough good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke
___________________________________________________

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] NO!!!! TAXES
From:	Ira Adams <iadams@-------->
Date:	Mon, 14 May 2001 22:31:23 -0500

Salve Artorius Longinus

I don't have my emailer set up to handle Cyrillic, but your email address
suggests you are a "worker." It will be nice if you will work for
something and not just against.

I don't speak Polish, but since my Russian professor was Polish, I'm told
I speak Russian with a Polish accent. Is that close enough? For some
reason, that seems to disturb Russians greatly. ;-)

Vale,

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.

On 5/14/01 2:59 PM rabotnik@-------- (rabotnik@--------) wrote:

>Petrus Artorius Longinus to my opponents and all Nova Roma Cives
>S.P.D.
>
>Salve !
>Maybe my english is not very special but you (some of my opponents)
>cant even say a word in my language also i belive that you are
>inteligent enough to anderstand me when i say NO !!! to Lex Vedia de
>assidui et capiti censi
>
>1. I em against taxes becaus spoil people. When some people get lern
>how get easy money very easy way thay will ask for more and more and
>more and nobody could stop them because they will have Lex Vedia de
>assidui et capiti censi
>
>2. Roman cives are the flash of this republic, look! how successfuly
>Nova Roma have grew up since last 3 years only because the work and
>passion of common NR citizens and ther was'nt taxes and Lex Vedia de
>assidui et capiti censi
>
>3. Gouverment should ask NR people first das they really want taxes,
>not trap people in unjust and tricky Lex Vedia de assidui et capiti
>censi
>
>4. If people of Nova Roma will agree for taxes (the worst
>possibility) we should have independent from magistrate, special
>public commision to controle state incomes and autcomes and to
>defence frome people who promote Lex Vedia de assidui et capiti
>censi
>
>NO!!! taxes NO!!! Lex Vedia de assidui et capiti censi
>FREEDOM !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>Vale bene!
>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] NO!!!! TAXES
From:	Ira Adams <iadams@-------->
Date:	Mon, 14 May 2001 22:31:25 -0500

Salve

You are not confused. The Lex Vedia up for vote would not impose any
taxes. It only establishes a difference in status for those who pay taxes
(when we have taxes) versus those who do not pay taxes (when we have
taxes).

This law would have no application or effect until the Senate has
established a tax system.

Vale,

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.

On 5/14/01 3:45 PM TClaudiusNero@-------- (TClaudiusNero@--------) wrote:

>Salvete,
>
> I'm somewhat confused here. I don't quite understand the neccessity
>for such virulent opposition to the law currently being vote upon. I
>believe that Nova Roma needs a tax system, some monetary funding will be
>necessary in future to push Nova Roma into the real world. But, if I were
>opposed to taxes being imposed in Nova Roma, I wouldn't put my efforts
>into opposing this law, because it levies no tax... unless I have misread
>somewhere. Have I misread something? Is there going to be a tax
>implemented by the Lex Vedia?
>
>Valete!
>Claudius
>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] NO!!!! TAXES
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 00:08:11 EDT

Salve Fabius

On 5/14/01 5:02 PM Caeso Fabius Quintilianus (tjalens.h@--------) wrote:

>To the rest of the citizens of Nova Roma I must say that it is sad to see
>people make fun of someone who isn't a native English speaker. Shame on
>You! I most strongly dissociate myself from those who use mockery as a
>political weapon. I am convinced that if one follows the Roman viritues,
>one will never lower oneself to such a low level of debatte.

I haven't seen this done. Perhaps Yahoo is depriving me of the posts to
which you refer. Or perhaps you're so wrapped up in trying to be
"politically correct" that you're unable to laugh with someone at a funny
error when they get their words mixed up and say something totally at
variance with what they meant to say, as Artorius did. If the latter,
then too bad for you.

Vale,

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.

itane? tua mater!

(Oh yeah? Your mother!)

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Soldiers shourd be exempt!
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 00:08:12 EDT

Salve Centurio

I agree! All pay you receive from Nova Roma should be exempt from
taxation! And further, you should receive an additional tax exemption for
each life you have given for the State.

Vale,

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.

On 5/14/01 6:40 PM Sean Sheridan Richards (legioix@--------) wrote:

>Since soldiers are already in the pay of the STATE they should be exempt
>from taxes. We give our lives for the State and now
>you want our money too?
>
>
>Centurio Gaius Valerius Tacitus Hibernicus
>LEG IX HSPA
>

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] Taxes - no
From:	Odysseus49@--------
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 04:33:56 -0000

Salvete all,

I don't often post to the main list. But I felt, after seeing the
debate, that I had to comment.

I am Curule Aedile. I am also Propraetor of Provincia Britannia. It
seems a little strange to me, that I am working for Nova Roma, and
easing into the previous propraetor Vado's shoes.... But I have to
pay money for the privilege! Well, I could afford it. But on
principle, if 3C of Lex Vedia passes, I would almost certainly resign
both posts, and put on my flat cap and cockney accent. Is that fair?

One of my friends, Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus, is currently
doing a college course. He is 20. I am sure everyone here
remembers the struggle between taxes, education, living expenses,
etc. He is Rogator. He is, at this moment, counting the votes of a
law that could force him out of office simply for wanting to continue
his education. Is that fair?

Vale,
Titus Sertorius Albinus.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes - no
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Mon, 14 May 2001 23:40:13 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Tite Sertori,

> One of my friends, Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus, is currently
> doing a college course. He is 20. I am sure everyone here
> remembers the struggle between taxes, education, living expenses,
> etc. He is Rogator. He is, at this moment, counting the votes of a
> law that could force him out of office simply for wanting to continue
> his education. Is that fair?

I volunteer to pay M. Scrobonius's taxes, if he is unable to do so.
He has proven his value and his dedication and I'd be happy to make
a contribution in his name.

Vale, Octavius.

---
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes - no
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Mon, 14 May 2001 21:42:28 -0700

on 5/14/01 9:33 PM, Odysseus49@-------- at Odysseus49@-------- wrote:

> Salvete all,
>
> I don't often post to the main list. But I felt, after seeing the
> debate, that I had to comment.
>
> I am Curule Aedile. I am also Propraetor of Provincia Britannia. It
> seems a little strange to me, that I am working for Nova Roma, and
> easing into the previous propraetor Vado's shoes.... But I have to
> pay money for the privilege! Well, I could afford it. But on
> principle, if 3C of Lex Vedia passes, I would almost certainly resign
> both posts, and put on my flat cap and cockney accent. Is that fair?
>
> One of my friends, Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus, is currently
> doing a college course. He is 20. I am sure everyone here
> remembers the struggle between taxes, education, living expenses,
> etc. He is Rogator. He is, at this moment, counting the votes of a
> law that could force him out of office simply for wanting to continue
> his education. Is that fair?
>
> Vale,
> Titus Sertorius Albinus.
>

Ave,

I respectfully disagree with your position. Is it fair that Magistrates
must pay their own funds to do the jobs they are elected to do? Speaking
from my experience I paid $500.00 out of my own pocket to do the duty I was
elected to do. I have never sought reimbursment. But what you have stated
is that you are essentially holding the state hostage. Pass this law and
you leave? How Roman is that?

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] The Goals of Nova Roma
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 00:41:53 -0400 (EDT)

Citizens of Nova Roma;

The goals of this micronation have always been far in advance of our
abilities, and those who have scoffed at the idea of 800+ citizens are
now silent. The goals for involving ourselves with real-life projects
related to our purposes as related to our Constitution which each of the
citizens bought into when they joined this nation in growth. Now we
wish to stretch our sinews in another way and let the world know that
there is something here besides talk. We want a real-life program and
dealing in real-life problems and situations.

It has been suggested that we involve Nova Roma in an archaelogical
exploration somewhere to put our money where our mouth is, but there are
those who say "NO TAXES" --We will volunteer!!!! Volunteer what?? You
have to have some background, and study and smarts, and be suited for
archaelogical work, and be able to get there before they will hire you
unless you wish to shovel overburden and carry water. And how will your
volunteering help Nova Roma??? Will you donate the extra slice of
bread, or send that extra cookie or can of soda to the Treasury?? Let
us get real here. Taxes are an international exchange medium. I can't
send two dozen eggs to Egypt to help defray the expenses of feeding the
dig teams there, but I can vote for some money to be sent to an approved
site from Nova Roma that will probably buy four dozen eggs!!!

Last year, as Consul, I wanted to send a letter and a gold laurel crown
to the Mayor of Rome and many wished to support that effort. I had
money ready to hand up to $300 if I needed it, but no-one to volunteer
to buy a crown. I know of at least three Provinces and Four Magistrates
who are asking for Volunteers, and there are no takers. The Sodalitas'
Militarium and Egressus has begged for volunteers to spread the word and
do research, for over a year, in all areas, no responses.

If we wish to get our "foot in the door" where we wish to be, we must
provide what the people behind those doors need. That is not two dozen
raw eggs nor is it an offer of volunteers that will not and cannot be
fulfilled for any one of the above reaons.

Citizens of Nova Roma, we have seen success in the growth of our
micronation, we have seen our problems come and go, and we have made our
mistakes (I have certainly made my share) and we have gotten past them.
We are now reaching for the next level--recognition in the various
worlds of our collective interests.

Are we who have worked long and hard for this day to be put off by the
cries and wails of those who have not yet reached a full understanding
of the situation?? Will we allow ourselves to be insulted by those who
speak before they have thought clearly about our real world goals??
Shall we turn away from the light of opportunity that is being seen at
the end of that long tunnel?? I have always rested my requests and
ideas on the strong shoulders of our citizens, and I do so again. I do
not insult your intelligence in telling you to vote one way or another.
You can make up your minds without my posturing. I only ask that those
of you who want what you agreed to when you "signed on" take the
necessary step as you see it, and let us go forward together!!!

I have watched this micronation grow, with it's problems and it's
successes and I am proud to be a part of it, and I am proud to be able
to see our future for which so many have worked within our grasp at
last. This is the next step, a step that is part and parcel of every
organization in the world worthy of belonging to. I ask my citizen
friends to stride firmly ahead to the goals that we bought into from day
one--grasp opportunity firmly by the hand and those who wail of disaster
and darkness will join us soon enough.

As I have said many times, ideas are fine, if you wish to carry them
out. Talk the talk and ignore the work, and all you have accomplished
is to irritate those who must listen to the same old tune. Volunteer for
your share of the micronation's work to be done--that is better. Dream
the dream and work the work as well as talk the talk, and the dream is
as good as fulfilled, ---- wail and cry over that which others are
unwilling to commit to, and all you will ever see ahead is
darkness!!!!!!

Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Taxes - no
From:	Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 14:57:03 +1000

I agree with Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix - this behaviour is somewhat
petty - I would have expected more from someone of your station and
responsibility - Don't use the Uni poor boy excuse on me !!!! I too have
done the University thing with little or no support from anyone, but I
always found money for the things that were important to me - I find your
comments unwarranted Titus. It is after all only logical that the Republic
needs revenue to grow and prosper, which is what we all want.

Resign - well from what I see that has happened before and will happen again
- such childish behaviour happens everywhere - but is particularly evident
in non profit based organisations and science fiction fan clubs which is
probably where you belong anyway. The law will pass and if it doesn't I
will not resign - but work to have it up again for consideration >>>>

Marcus Sentius Claudius

>>> I would almost certainly resign both posts, and put on my flat cap and
cockney accent. Is that fair? - Titus Sertorius Albinus.>>>

**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the Network Administrator on +61 3 9667 6699.

This footnote also confirms that this email message has been scanned
for the presence of computer viruses and inappropriate content.
**********************************************************************

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Congratulations!
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Jerry=20Anguston?= <gaiussentius@-------->
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 15:35:35 +1000 (EST)

Avete omnes et frater Publius,

I'd just like to add an "I'm in total agreeance with
this" to show my point of view. If we can't support
those who have toiled to make Nova Roma great, those
that have been here since the begining, those that
still support and work tirelessly for Nova Roma, when
they have worked for so long to make the glory of Nova
Roma a possibility. I may not have much money, and may
not be able to pay the full amount of taxes on some
occasions, but whatever I could scrimp and scrape
together to make sure that all could enjoy this dream,
I would gladly give it to Nova Roma.

Valete bene,

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura

Legatus Australia Medius
Sacerdos Mars Invictus

--- Kanat Elibol <kelibol@--------> wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
 
 
 

Avete.... 

I've seen that new people or new ideas were shot down
on this 
list...I've heard the dead 
 silence when someone speak
against some generally accepted views or 
the views some thought 
 as 'generally
accepted'!...but congratulations!There is always 
something new on this list! 

This is the first time I've ever seen that someone
made fun of 
just because English isn't his 
 native language! 

If taxes will help us to be more civil besides paying
for the 
expenses of our 
 magistrates...I'll
pay! 

Valete bene... 
 

Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion 
 
 
 
 
</tt>

 



<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>
<td align=center><font size="-1"


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] New Sacerdos Mars Invictus!
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Jerry=20Anguston?= <gaiussentius@-------->
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 15:42:43 +1000 (EST)

Ave Caeso Fabius Quintilianus et omnes,

Thankyou very much for your congrats. I offered Mars a
libation of very expensive red wine I could ill afford
as a sign of appreciation....hope he likes it!:-)

I hope to give the utmost honor and pay the greatest
amount of respect to Mars Invictus, and hope that he
looks favourably upon Nova Roma and all who dwell
within her glory!

Valete bene,

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura

Legatus Australia Medius
Sacerdos Mars Invictus

--- Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
Salve Honorable Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura! 
 
Honorable Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura, congratulations
to Your appointment 
as Sacerdos of Mars Invictus! 
 
Vale 
 
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus 
Quaestor of Nova Roma 
Propraetor of Thule 
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus 
 
The Opinions expressed are my own, 
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma 
************************************************ 
Join the Main List for Nova Roma 
<a
href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma</a> 
Join the List for the Thule Provincia in Nova Roma 
<a
href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ThuleNovaRoma/join">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ThuleNovaRoma/join</a> 
************************************************ 
The homepage of the Nova Roma Provincia Thule: 
<a
href="http://www.acc.umu.se/~kerish/novaroma/main.html">http://www.acc.umu.se/~kerish/novaroma/main.html</a> 
************************************************ 
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam 
"I'll either find a way or make one" 
************************************************ 
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark
side." 
************************************************ 
Caeso, he who also is known as Christer Edling. 
************************************************ 
Using a keyboard that don't want to make L! :-( 
************************************************ 
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10 
DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56 
MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80 
</tt>

 



<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>
<td align=center><font size="-1"


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxing Scribonius
From:	QFabiusMax@--------
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 03:28:21 EDT

In a message dated 5/14/2001 9:35:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
Odysseus49@-------- writes:

<< One of my friends, Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus, is currently
doing a college course. He is 20. I am sure everyone here
remembers the struggle between taxes, education, living expenses,
etc. He is Rogator. He is, at this moment, counting the votes of a
law that could force him out of office simply for wanting to continue
his education. Is that fair?
>>
Salvete.
Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus has proven his loyalty and is a valued
member of the state. I would be honored to pay his taxes until he can afford
them.
Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] Answers to various replies to my post
From:	Odysseus49@--------
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 07:40:06 -0000

Salvete all,

First of all, Sulla.

No, I am NOT holding the state to hostage. I am saying that I will
(Most likely) not pay taxes, on principle. I would be quite happy to
continue to hold office. but the law that is currently on the cista
says that those who do not pay taxes cannot hold office. So I won't
be able to.

Sentius -
I'm not playing the poor boy Uni card. For one thing, it wasn't me I
was speaking about. For me, I'm playing the disagreeing with issue
on moral grounds card. Very different.

Vale,
Titus Sertorius Albinus.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Answers to various replies to my post
From:	Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 18:09:47 +1000

Dearest Titus

Don't give me that bull - you played the Poor Uni Student card as it suited
you - moral grounds ??? - yeah right - well how moral is it that you have
such a senior position in Nova and you threaten to resign over this issue -
how moral is that ???

You made a commitment to Nova and it's citizens to the position and you need
to at least have the moral character to see it through - you sound to me
like a spoilt child - you don't get your way and off you go...

By the way - I am sure the Inland Revenue Authorities also accept your
position in not paying taxes - you would be the first to benefit from paid
for Police Forces, FREE health care and god knows what else - where does all
that come from - I guess someone is out the back of number 10 just prints
money when the Government needs it - what a Utopia you must live in...

Marcus Sentius Claudius

-----Original Message-----
From: Odysseus49@-------- [mailto:Odysseus49@--------]
Sent: Tuesday, 15 May 2001 5:40 Pm
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Answers to various replies to my post

Salvete all,

First of all, Sulla.

No, I am NOT holding the state to hostage. I am saying that I will
(Most likely) not pay taxes, on principle. I would be quite happy to
continue to hold office. but the law that is currently on the cista
says that those who do not pay taxes cannot hold office. So I won't
be able to.

Sentius -
I'm not playing the poor boy Uni card. For one thing, it wasn't me I
was speaking about. For me, I'm playing the disagreeing with issue
on moral grounds card. Very different.

Vale,
Titus Sertorius Albinus.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the Network Administrator on +61 3 9667 6699.

This footnote also confirms that this email message has been scanned
for the presence of computer viruses and inappropriate content.
**********************************************************************

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] We did these!
From:	Kanat Elibol <kelibol@-------->
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 12:32:30 +0300

Avete Omnes...
Since the beginning of this tax argument there is a question
frequently asked to the people who
have no official title or who are new here...'I did these...What have
you done?!.And I'm one of
them...
Let me tell you briefly what we have done......
*After we got our citizenship we read the archives for days just to
understand what was going
on and who was who...
*Than we try to express our opinions on various matters...we got
attacked,criticized or ignored!
But we continued...
*Sometimes we had to bear cynical innuendos because we weren't
experienced in politics..
*We offered new ideas which were sometimes silenced or got lost
through the tumulut of the
political fights...
*And in spite of all these...we did and are still doing something
vital for the future of the res
publica...we voted and are still voting today!
We did these and will keep on doing these...just because we love NR
as much as our
magistrates!I believe the non tax payers of the future will be
dedicated to NR as much as the tax
payers!Because we are the 'ordinary' but 'proud' people of Nova Roma!
Here I want to thank two persons...Thank you Marcus Apollonius
Formosanus for expressing
so eloquently the thoughts of many silent people about the tax issue we
have...
And thank you pater for constantly supporting this no-good frater
of yours but I'm afraid
I shall remain so!Being just 'one of the people' can be the hardest
profession sometimes :)
Valete bene

Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] We did these!
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 02:39:39 -0700

Ave,

I would like to comment on some parts of this statement:

Kanat Elibol wrote:
>
> Avete Omnes...
> Since the beginning of this tax argument there is a question
> frequently asked to the people who
> have no official title or who are new here...'I did these...What have
> you done?!.And I'm one of
> them...
> Let me tell you briefly what we have done......

I think you should preface this by what YOU have done. I do not think
you can speak for the other 150+ people who have been approved this year
alone. And, let me commend you on your preparation and the ability to
go through at least some of the 20,000+ messages of the archives.

> *After we got our citizenship we read the archives for days just to
> understand what was going
> on and who was who...

That's a good first step.

> *Than we try to express our opinions on various matters...we got
> attacked,criticized or ignored!

And I believe that in a recent discussion most of the opinions that ran
counter to yours were from individuals who are just as new as you are.
I did not see the old-timers (people in NR longer than 2 years) belittle
your opinion, your views or your arguments. And, let me just add that
just because people might not respond does not mean you are being
ignored. Many of my posts were not responded too. Case in point when I
tried to start a discussion on a recent book I bought called "Party and
Politics in the Age of Caesar" by Lily Ross Taylor.

> But we continued...
> *Sometimes we had to bear cynical innuendos because we weren't
> experienced in politics..

Well I believe this happens just as likely for those of us who are
interested in politics as well. <g> Perhaps more so to be honest.

> *We offered new ideas which were sometimes silenced or got lost
> through the tumulut of the
> political fights...

Well, there might be reasons for that. If you have gone far enough in
the archives you might have found out that maybe some of the ideas you
have expressed have been expressed already? Maybe other citizens might
just totally disagree or even agree with your ideas? As you know from
reading the archives you will see a trend about these political cat
fights. At times lines are clearly drawn between those unwilling to
compromise? Especially given some of the issues that we (NR) has been
discussing for years (i.e.. Taxes and other issues.)

> *And in spite of all these...we did and are still doing something
> vital for the future of the res
> publica...we voted and are still voting today!

Excellent. That is excellent.

> We did these and will keep on doing these...just because we love NR
> as much as our
> magistrates!I believe the non tax payers of the future will be
> dedicated to NR as much as the tax
> payers!

Good, NR will never survive if She is just a top heavy Nation. But, the
issue is not about how much dedication non Tax payers will have in NR.
But how much the expense of this organization is going to be distributed
amongst all of her citizens. Remember, NR will never survive if She is
a Top Heavy Nation.

Because we are the 'ordinary' but 'proud' people of Nova Roma!

I would like to take this statement a bit further....and say we all,
regardless of our rank in NR are Proud to be apart of NR. I hope all of
my fellow magistrates feel the same way.

<Snip>

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] NO!!!! TAXES
From:	Kristoffer From <kristoffer.from@-------->
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 13:14:13 +0200

LSergAust@-------- wrote:
> I haven't seen this done. Perhaps Yahoo is depriving me of the posts to
> which you refer. Or perhaps you're so wrapped up in trying to be
> "politically correct" that you're unable to laugh with someone at a funny
> error when they get their words mixed up and say something totally at
> variance with what they meant to say, as Artorius did. If the latter,
> then too bad for you.

Salve, L. Sergius Aust. Obst.

There's a difference between laughing *at* someone, and laughing *with*
that person. Since the "funny error" in question wasn't intended as a
joke, there is no reason for you or anyone else to consider it one.

Vale,

Titus Octavius Pius,
Consiliarius Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum

AKA Kristoffer From

---

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS d- s:++> a-- C++>$ ULS++ P+ L++ E- W++(--) N
o-- K- w--- !O M-- V-- PS->$ PE- Y+ PGP- t+@ 5- X-
R+++>$ !tv- b+++>$ DI++++ D+ G e h! !r-->r+++ !x-
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] The Period Research and Documentation Unit
From:	"Marek Grajek" <MarekJG@-------->
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 10:12:27 +0200

> -----Original Message-----
> From: CW2ShaneEvans@-------- [mailto:CW2ShaneEvans@--------]
> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 9:21 PM
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: [novaroma] The Period Research and Documentation Unit

(snip)

> Then lastly, we need to gather the histories of the individual Legios of
the Republic and Empire.

Salve,

You have my cooperation in this subject. In fact I did already some data
digging in this area. Contact me off-list regarding the details.

Cneus Marius Aquila
(cryptiq@--------)

-----------------R--E--K--L--A--M--A------------------
Masz problem z prowadzeniem ksiag? Szukasz odpowiedzi?
Forum Ksiegowych i Bieglych Rewidentow w INTERIA.PL!
Skorzystaj - http://biznes.interia.pl/biznesforum/

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] NO!!!! TAXES
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 13:45:51 +0200

>Salve Fabius
>
>On 5/14/01 5:02 PM Caeso Fabius Quintilianus (tjalens.h@--------) wrote:
>
>>To the rest of the citizens of Nova Roma I must say that it is sad to see
>>people make fun of someone who isn't a native English speaker. Shame on
>>You! I most strongly dissociate myself from those who use mockery as a
>>political weapon. I am convinced that if one follows the Roman viritues,
>>one will never lower oneself to such a low level of debatte.
>
>I haven't seen this done. Perhaps Yahoo is depriving me of the posts to
>which you refer. Or perhaps you're so wrapped up in trying to be
>"politically correct" that you're unable to laugh with someone at a funny
>error when they get their words mixed up and say something totally at
>variance with what they meant to say, as Artorius did. If the latter,
>then too bad for you.
>
>Vale,
>
>L. Sergius Aust. Obst.

Salve Illustrus Senator Lucius Sergius Australicus Obst.!

I am sorry but I think your view of my statement is formed from your own
cultural point of view. I really don't know what that your cultural point
of view is, but your statement seems to lack a true understanding of my
position. That makes me a bit suprised, as I always found You to be a wise
and very independant person.

Let me explain:

1. My English may seem to be OK, but the truth is that I really not always
get the jokes. This is probably true with quite a few more. (My dictionary
is always at my side) I think that in a multi-cultural enviroment as this
one, we should always aim for tolerance and try to interpret all statements
positively. In the beginning at least. Therefore I think that You don't
take my or others' status as non-native English speaking citizens into
enough consideration.

2. The term "political correctness" is nearly unknow to me in my cultural
enviroment. No one I know of in the "establishment" or among the common
people here in Sweden use the term. You are wrong, I had no "political
correctness" in my mind, I just followed my conviction. It is not only the
Tribunes that can stand up for non-patricians! ;-)

I think that internet is an enviroment where we should handle our relations
with care and try to understand each other without making interpretations
that are negative.

As You maybe can guess I am among those who work day and night for Nova
Roma. I just took time from my work to draw a line. Something I have seen
You too do at times. I will continue to take time for that in the future,
as I guess/hope You will. I will not deny You that right, as I hope You
wont deny me my right to do so!

If You want to continue this discussion I will be glad to do that privately!

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
Join the Main List for Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
Join the List for the Thule Provincia in Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ThuleNovaRoma/join
************************************************
The homepage of the Nova Roma Provincia Thule:
http://www.acc.umu.se/~kerish/novaroma/main.html
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
Caeso, he who also is known as Christer Edling.
************************************************
Using a keyboard that don't want to make L! :-(
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] NO!!!! TAXES
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 08:16:34 EDT

Salve

Apparently you do not grasp the difference between what is humorous and
what is a joke. I shall not hold that against you and will even posit
that you might have been well-meaning in your intrusion into the
conversation.

However I have no patience with your presumption in lecturing to me about
how I should think or speak here. In the unlikely event that I feel the
need for tutelege from you on such matters, I will let you know. Don't
hold your breath.

Vale,

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.

On 5/15/01 6:14 AM Kristoffer From (kristoffer.from@--------) wrote:

>LSergAust@-------- wrote:
>> I haven't seen this done. Perhaps Yahoo is depriving me of the posts to
>> which you refer. Or perhaps you're so wrapped up in trying to be
>> "politically correct" that you're unable to laugh with someone at a funny
>> error when they get their words mixed up and say something totally at
>> variance with what they meant to say, as Artorius did. If the latter,
>> then too bad for you.
>
>Salve, L. Sergius Aust. Obst.
>
>There's a difference between laughing *at* someone, and laughing *with*
>that person. Since the "funny error" in question wasn't intended as a
>joke, there is no reason for you or anyone else to consider it one.
>
>Vale,
>
>Titus Octavius Pius,
>Consiliarius Thules,
>Praeco Anarei Thules,
>Scriba to the Curator Araneum
>
>AKA Kristoffer From
>

utinam barbari spatium proprium tuum invadant!

(May barbarians invade your personal space!)

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] NO!!!! TAXES
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 08:51:32 EDT

Salve Caeso Fabius

Our posts crossed in the aether, so let me just offer a few comments. I
suspected that you are not a native English speaker, but your English is
so good that i wasn't certain. Anyway, that's not an issue: most citizens
of a certain large macronation (not China) aren't native English-speakers
either. :-)

To point out that someone has said something unintended which happens to
sound incongruously funny is not belittling them or their facility (or
lack thereof) in the language. It *is* a little hazardous because it is,
in effect, assuming a position of familiarity with them. It is a little
like it would be for a German or Russian or French speaker to use the
familiar form of address, which as you probably know does not really
exist in English. It may offend the receiver if they are not of a mind to
be friendly, or if they are excessively defensive about their language
skills. Apparently the subject of this issue chose to assume our
responses were critical.

So in my own cultural idiom (whatever that might be), my response to
Artorius was friendly. He didn't read it that way, nor did you and a few
other non-native English-speakers. Such are the dangers of cross-cultural
dialogue. It depends upon a presumption of good will, something that
seems often absent in Nova Roma.

So if I gave Artorius an opening to assume offense and he chose to take
offense, I am sorry. I do not, however, intend to quit trying to relate
to people in that manner when I think it is appropriate. We *can* learn
to appreciate each other if we're not always looking for excuses to take
offense.

As for "PC": forgive me, but I think that PC was practically invented in
Sweden! You just may not know the term itself, but the whole structure of
Swedish government and law for many years (at east as reported on this
side of the pond) seemed aimed at achieving what is known here as
political correctness - the need to avoid any appearance of offending,
criticizing, or discriminating against anyone for any reason, no matter
what the cost of the avoidant behaviors. That is not intended as an
offensive or critical statement, but just as a description of how things
have appeared here.

Some of that attitude has appeared cynical or dishonest. Much like
Sweden's famous neutrality which put it in a position to profit from
selling arms to both sides during WWII. (A position shared by "neutral"
Switzerland, BTW - might as well offend other people while I'm at it :-)
)

So to get back on topic, I sorry to have been so touchy about you jumping
into the discussion on the side of not wanting to offend anyone. However
I think that position could be carried to an extreme. If we just don't
talk to one another, or keep our conversations so bland and "safe" that
we never really share any feelings or concerns, we stand to lose a great
deal more than if we really talk now and then and take the chance that
someone will choose to tkae offense.

Enough rambling, I need to get to work!

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.

BTW, would you mind giving a translation of your "not so famous
quotation?"

On 5/15/01 6:45 AM Caeso Fabius Quintilianus (tjalens.h@--------) wrote:

>>Salve Fabius
>>
>>On 5/14/01 5:02 PM Caeso Fabius Quintilianus (tjalens.h@--------) wrote:
>>
>>>To the rest of the citizens of Nova Roma I must say that it is sad to see
>>>people make fun of someone who isn't a native English speaker. Shame on
>>>You! I most strongly dissociate myself from those who use mockery as a
>>>political weapon. I am convinced that if one follows the Roman viritues,
>>>one will never lower oneself to such a low level of debatte.
>>
>>I haven't seen this done. Perhaps Yahoo is depriving me of the posts to
>>which you refer. Or perhaps you're so wrapped up in trying to be
>>"politically correct" that you're unable to laugh with someone at a funny
>>error when they get their words mixed up and say something totally at
>>variance with what they meant to say, as Artorius did. If the latter,
>>then too bad for you.
>>
>>Vale,
>>
>>L. Sergius Aust. Obst.
>
>Salve Illustrus Senator Lucius Sergius Australicus Obst.!
>
>I am sorry but I think your view of my statement is formed from your own
>cultural point of view. I really don't know what that your cultural point
>of view is, but your statement seems to lack a true understanding of my
>position. That makes me a bit suprised, as I always found You to be a wise
>and very independant person.
>
>Let me explain:
>
>1. My English may seem to be OK, but the truth is that I really not always
>get the jokes. This is probably true with quite a few more. (My dictionary
>is always at my side) I think that in a multi-cultural enviroment as this
>one, we should always aim for tolerance and try to interpret all statements
>positively. In the beginning at least. Therefore I think that You don't
>take my or others' status as non-native English speaking citizens into
>enough consideration.
>
>2. The term "political correctness" is nearly unknow to me in my cultural
>enviroment. No one I know of in the "establishment" or among the common
>people here in Sweden use the term. You are wrong, I had no "political
>correctness" in my mind, I just followed my conviction. It is not only the
>Tribunes that can stand up for non-patricians! ;-)
>
>I think that internet is an enviroment where we should handle our relations
>with care and try to understand each other without making interpretations
>that are negative.
>
>As You maybe can guess I am among those who work day and night for Nova
>Roma. I just took time from my work to draw a line. Something I have seen
>You too do at times. I will continue to take time for that in the future,
>as I guess/hope You will. I will not deny You that right, as I hope You
>wont deny me my right to do so!
>
>If You want to continue this discussion I will be glad to do that privately!
>
>
>Vale
>
>Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
>Quaestor of Nova Roma
>Propraetor of Thule
>Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus
>
>The Opinions expressed are my own,
>and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma

------------------------------------------------------------
vita brevis sed amor longus, et amor omnia vincit

Life is short but Love is long, and Love conquers all.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] What vote about taxes?
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 09:16:23 -0400

Salvete

I was just wondering with all this hooplah if certain individuals had even
bothered to read the items they seem so upset about. There simply _is_ no
vote about taxes going on right now. Indeed, no such vote could legitimately
take place; the Senate sets taxes, not the Comitia.

Nothing under consideration by the Comitia has to do with whether taxes will
be raised, how they'd be raised, or how much they'd be. The Lex Vedia de
assidui et capiti censi only has to do with what to do with people who don't
pay taxes, assuming taxes are instituted by the Senate.

To those jumping up and down howling about the evils of the lex, I would ask
you to consider this: would you rather have non-taxpayers thrown out of Nova
Roma entirely, or given a place to stay and contribute? One would think
that, as champions of the handful of Citizens who might legitimately not be
_able_ to pay taxes, you'd want some sort of safety net for them (as opposed
to those cheap freeloaders who just don't _want_ to pay taxes and who should
be viewed with great contempt).

This lex _is_ that safety net; non-taxpayers are given a place and a voice
in our society, which is much more than you'd find most other places. If
this lex is not approved, then anyone unable to pay taxes would perforce be
removed from Citizenship, should the Senate institute taxes. I don't think
that would serve our interests at this time.

Vote FOR inclusion! Vote FOR the Lex Vedia de assidui et capiti censi.

Next year in the Forum!

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] SUPPORT OUR REPUBLIC - "YES" TO TAXES! (was Re: NO TAXES !!!!)
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 10:17:57 -0300 (BRT)

On Mon, 14 May 2001, JusticeCMO wrote:

> Salve,
>
> >>I am shocked and dismayed to see such strong opposition to a moderate and
> just law that is absolutely essential for the future of Nova Roma.>>
>
> Perhaps I am cynical, but I am always suspicious of anyone who....as
> "rabotnik" did....joins the NR Main List and *less* then 5 minutes later
> posts a message such as his. No introduction, no discussion, just a "blast".
>

Salve,

he signed his message : Petrus Artorius Longinus in good Roman fashion,
why do you call him "rabotnik" ?

When a roman citizen usually subscribing to NovaRomaVizantia, subscribes
to the main list in order to say something which is important for him,
making a big effort in order to write in an intelligible, if not perfect,
english, you should first ask yourself why he is not a usual subscriber.
Perhaps because of the language policy of the main list ? Which does
not allow citizens of his level in english to express themselves.
You should turn your suspicions against your policy not against the
citizens.

I really disliked the reactions of some citizens to the quality of the
english, but I didn t expect to read this from the Curatrix Sermonem.

Vale,

Manius Villius Limitanus

> ::shrug::
>
> As I say, perhaps I am cynical, but I take such things with a grain of salt.
> I also trust that the majority of our cives can see quite clearly the value
> and necessity of the law in question.
>
> Vale,
> Priscilla Vedia Serena
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Pr. Michel Loos | Phone: 55 11 818 3810 p. 216
Inst. de Quimica USP | Fax: 55 11 815 5579
PO Box 26077 05599-970 Săo Paulo, S SP
Brazil

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	The last of [novaroma] NO!!!! TAXES
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 15:26:35 +0200

Salve Illustrus Senator Lucius Sergius Australicus Obst.!

I tried to send You a friendly mail to clear things up. You answered in the
same friendly mood. That is what I want to achive. Yes I also allow myself
a joke or two, but I try to take it slow. Well no hurt intended and no hurt
inflicted on either side.

What appears happening here on this side of the pond from a different
perspective mustn't be happing in reallity. "Political correctness" may be
something that others think that we in Sweden are "using". I am not sure
that we are aware of it! ;-) I am not interested (at least not here and now
;-) ) in discussing "Sweden's famous neutrality which put it in a position
to profit from selling arms to both sides during WWII", but I do agree with
You.

I feel that we have cleared some things up between us and hopefully others
have benefited by our discussion. Please continue to try to use humour, it
is no problem with cultural "misunderstandings" as long as we stay in
contact to sort things out.

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
Join the Main List for Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
Join the List for the Thule Provincia in Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ThuleNovaRoma/join
************************************************
The homepage of the Nova Roma Provincia Thule:
http://www.acc.umu.se/~kerish/novaroma/main.html
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
Caeso, he who also is known as Christer Edling.
************************************************
Using a keyboard that don't want to make L! :-(
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: NO TAXES !!!!
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 09:18:04 -0400

Salve,

>>If he signed up to the Main List specifically to speak out about
something he feels passionately about, that is no crime.>>

Never said it was. I simply commented on it.

>>People who do not know English well...>>

Hmmm. From what I understand his English was impeccable when he suggested
making *you* propratetor of Poland. Interesting. Then again, I am sure
this is just another example of my cynicism at work.

Vale,
Priscilla Vedia Serena

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] ATTN (Religio Romana): Idus Maias (May 15th)
From:	"Antonio Grilo" <amg@-------->
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 14:50:38 +0100

Salvete omnes

This is one of the dies nefasti (N), a day on which no legal action can take
place.

The Ides of every month are sacred to Iuppiter. An white ewe is
sacrificed to Iuppiter by the Flamen Dialis.

Today Maia and Mercurius are honoured together. The merchants ('mercatores')
celebrate the dedication of the temple of Mercurius which is near the Circus
Maximus. This was dedicated in 495 BC. Prayers ask for his help to grant
the success of our affairs.
As described in [Ovid, Fasti, V.663-692], not far away from the temple, near
the Porta Capena, the pious merchant, after purification and with his tunic
girt up, draws water from a "spring of Mercurius" with a jar duly submited
to fumigations. He then soaks a laurel bough, lifts his merchandise and
sprinkles it. He also sprinkles his hair. While doing this he prays as
follows:

"Ablue praeteriti periuria temporis, ablue praeteritae perfida verba die.
Sive ego te feci testem falsove citavi non audituri numina magna Iovis, sive
deum prudens alium divamve fefelli, abstulerint celeres improba verba Noti,
et pateant veniente die periuria nobis, nec curent superi si qua locutus
ero. Da modo lucra mihi, de facto gaudia lucro, et fac, ut emptori verba
dedisse iuvet"
"Wash away the perjuries of past time, wash away my glozing words of the
past day. Whether I have called thee to witness, or have falsely invoked the
great divinity of Iuppiter, in the expectation that he would not hear, or
whether I have knowingly taken in vain the name of any other god or goddess,
let the swift south winds carry away the wicked words, and may tomorrow open
the door for me to fresh perjuries, and may the gods above not care if I
shall utter any! Only grant me profits, grant me the joy of profit made, and
see to it that I enjoy cheating the buyer!"

Well, remind that Mercurius has once stolen the cattle of Apollo...
Why Mercurius is today associated to Maia, we don't know... But some say
that being Maia a Godess of growth, the deceased and the Earth, being
Mercurius the God of enterprise and commerce, They jointly assimilate the
power of the spirits of the ancestors, who watch from the kingdom of Dis
(=Plouton=wealth) beneath the Earth and help us in our daily affairs.

I remind you that Maius is the month of the old and the dead. Maia, the
Lares and the Manes and their mother (Mater Larum) are specially honoured.

Valete bene in pace deorum

Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: What vote about taxes?
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 14:19:53 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@n...>
wrote:
> Salvete
>
> I was just wondering with all this hooplah if certain individuals
had even
> bothered to read the items they seem so upset about. There simply
_is_ no
> vote about taxes going on right now. Indeed, no such vote could
legitimately
> take place; the Senate sets taxes, not the Comitia.
>
> Nothing under consideration by the Comitia has to do with whether
taxes will
> be raised, how they'd be raised, or how much they'd be. The Lex
Vedia de
> assidui et capiti censi only has to do with what to do with people
who don't
> pay taxes, assuming taxes are instituted by the Senate.
>
> To those jumping up and down howling about the evils of the lex, I
would ask
> you to consider this: would you rather have non-taxpayers thrown
out of Nova
> Roma entirely, or given a place to stay and contribute? One would
think
> that, as champions of the handful of Citizens who might
legitimately not be
> _able_ to pay taxes, you'd want some sort of safety net for them
(as opposed
> to those cheap freeloaders who just don't _want_ to pay taxes and
who should
> be viewed with great contempt).
>
> This lex _is_ that safety net; non-taxpayers are given a place and
a voice
> in our society, which is much more than you'd find most other
places. If
> this lex is not approved, then anyone unable to pay taxes would
perforce be
> removed from Citizenship, should the Senate institute taxes. I
don't think
> that would serve our interests at this time.
>
> Vote FOR inclusion! Vote FOR the Lex Vedia de assidui et capiti
censi.
>
> Next year in the Forum!
>
> Valete,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul
>

Salvete Omnes,

No this vote does NOT establish taxes, but that dosen't mean there
will be no connection between the outcome of this vote and the
Senate's delibarations on taxes. I'm sure that the results of this
vote will come up when the Senate discusses imposing taxes.

If this Lex is defeated by a large margin the Senate will stil have
the power to impose taxes, though I doubt they would.

If the result is close, either for or against, it will make the
Senate's choice harder.

If this lex passes by a large margin then the Senate will have a far
easier task of deciding to impose taxes.

Citizens send the Senate a message!
Pass the Lex Vedia de assidui et capiti censi by a landslide!

Valete
L. Sicinius Drusus

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] We did these!
From:	VMoeller@--------
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 10:21:50 EDT

In a message dated 5/15/01 4:21:16 AM Central Daylight Time,
kelibol@-------- writes:

<< *And in spite of all these...we did and are still doing something
vital for the future of the res
publica...we voted and are still voting today!
We did these and will keep on doing these...just because we love NR
as much as our
magistrates! >>

Salvete Publius Sentius Rutilianus Dexion!

I disagree with you deeply - and respectfully - over the issue of the
perceived insensitivity of some cives for the language of another. I do not
believe there was any disrespect intended. Also, I wish to publicly applaud
your commitment to Nova Roma in your statement above. In this Res Publica we
must hear all sides of the issue in order to effectively decide how we will
grow - and grow we will and must! So in the spirit of Concordia I hope that
you will understand that the vociferous debates we hold are not intended to
inflict harm upon anyone's self esteem. I thank you for your honorable post.
If I may - I would like to attempt to say it in the language of your Province
- and please forgive my misspelling:

Tesheker Ederim Effendum!

---Secunda Cornelia Valeria

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: NO TAXES !!!!
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 15:28:29 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@--------> wrote:
Snip
>
> 3) A clear and fair principle for adjusting the tax to income -
> perhaps something simple like 0.1% of one's gross income.
>
Salve,

While I support the idea of indexing taxes according to the wealth of
a provincia, there is NO way I'll ever support basing taxes on a
citizens indiviual income. I will pay my taxes. I will gladly pay a
higher rate than the citizens of provinces that aren't as wealthy as
mine.

I will NOT tell any magistrate or any other citizen of Nova Roma what
my income is. My reply to anyone who asked isn't something you would
want to see on the main list.

A Citizen's income is no different than his sexuality, both are NONE
of the state's concern, and when I say I don't want the state peering
in my pants, I don't limit it to looking at my sexual organs, I also
include the contents of my wallet.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: NO TAXES !!!!
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 12:12:36 -0400

Salve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: lsicinius@-------- [mailto:lsicinius@--------]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 11:28 AM
>
> I will NOT tell any magistrate or any other citizen of Nova Roma what
> my income is. My reply to anyone who asked isn't something you would
> want to see on the main list.

I quite agree, and I daresay the State would get a similar response from me
were I asked to send in a photocopy of my paycheck stub. Not only would it
be an unwarranted intrusion into Citizens' personal affairs, but would
rapidly turn into a logistical and bureaucratic nightmare. Rest assured, if
and when the Senate takes up the question of taxes, a system based on
individual or household income will not be among the possibilities, as long
as I am Consul.

But of course, this is all hypothetical at this stage, because the Senate
_hasn't_ yet taken up the issue of taxes, and the Comitia is only voting on
what to do with non-taxpayers, not how much taxes should be.

Next year in the Forum!

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] Taxation, no? Some comments
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 18:07:13 +0200

Salvete Quirites,

I think it was Nietzsche who said that the best way to defeat a thesis is
to defend it with the wrong arguments; I think this has happened in the
case of Artorius.

For the record, I am not against taxes, but I am definitely against a
system that makes people who have time, brains and ability unable to stand
for office -- unless someone else pays their tax. Both Senatores Octavius
and Maximus are very noble in being willing to pay another magistrate's
expenses, and this is an admirable example of Romanitas.

However, I think that many people would have moral problems if someone else
would pay for them (poor people don't like being treated as poor people,
even though the donor has a good heart). Even more; other individuals could
abuse this practice in both ways; the "takers" faking their poorness, or
the "givers" who expect political favours in return (note: I don't mean in
any way this would be the case with the offers of both Octavius and Maximus
-- certainly not!).

I still think placing people who don't °want° to pay in the 5th century is
good enough, and that solutions should be worked out for the considerably
large minority that °can't° pay. Resigning because of the current lex being
voted in is not cowardice; I think not allowing any alternatives is.
Nodding in obedience is not my definition of Romanitas, and it's certainly
not on the Virtues list.

In short, since the current proposal has generated so much debate, it might
have been better to bring it back to the drawing table.

Valete bene,
Draco

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] New Sacerdos Mars Invictus!
From:	"Raina Faolan" <GuruPoet@-------->
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 12:39:27 -0400

Salvete,

Couple days late as usual. My congrats to Gaius Brutus Sentius Sura,
on his new appointment.

Avete,
R.Cornelia Aeternia

>From: cassius622@--------
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>CC: ReligioRomana@--------
>Subject: [novaroma] New Sacerdos Mars Invictus!
>Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 22:40:26 EDT
>
>Salvete,
>
>I am sending this post late with full apologies... I have been having
>Internet connection problems for some time and thought this had gone out
>after the last Pontificial College vote! :(
>
>It is my pleasure to announce that Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura has been
>appointed as a Sacerdos of Mars Invictus by the Collegium Pontificum of
>Nova
>Roma. Bruttius Sura has shown a true devotion to Mars Invictus as well as
>valuable knowledge of the Religio Romana. His holding this post will surely
>be a great benefit to the Religio Romana in Nova Roma!
>
>I hope everyone will join me in sending Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura
>congratulations in regard to his new Priesthood. AVE!
>
>Valete,
>
>Marcus Cassius Julianus
>Pontifex Maximus
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Taxation, no? Some comments
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 16:42:16 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@p...>
wrote:
>
> I still think placing people who don't °want° to pay in the 5th
century is
> good enough, and that solutions should be worked out for the
considerably
> large minority that °can't° pay. >

Salve,

How are we going to sort those who can't pay from those who don't
want to pay?

Are we just going to take their word?
Every deadbeat in Nova Roma will be crying poverity, and the Lex will
be meaningless.

Are we going to ask for doccumetation?
Then we are in for a repeat of the Name Change argument, but on a
much larger scale.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxation, no? Some comments
From:	"yquere@--------"<yquere@-------->
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 17:52:05 +0100

Salvete Quirites

As usual, I do agree with Sextus Apollonius. I would just
like to add a practical though about the tax debate which
created much reactions on the main list.

Instead of raising taxes, why not asking people to pay a
fee for each manifestation or event one would like to
attend and trying to balance the budget event by envent.
This could be a first step before reasoning on a global
micro-national budget which is obviously uncompatible
with the various states of "developpement" of provinciae
around the world.

In order not to prevent people with less financial
ressources from being denied access to the events, the
excesses (if there are) could go to a "Romanitas Fund"
which could help balacing some budget for a few "extra"
participants ?

The professional association I'm administrating is quite
active and yet has no lucrative activities. The events we
organize are voluntary suscribed by participants, and the
fee is calculated in order to balnce the budget of each
event. Corolarly, we have some ressources linked to a few
sales which products less than the legal minimum required
to be considered lucrative, which permits us to lessen
the fee and to offer entrance to those members having
less ressources than other.
The entrance fee of the association exists, but is
symbolical compared to the services offered to members.

In comparison, the level of taxe expected in NR in
regards of what NR can or will do within certain emerging
provinces seems enormous, even if in absolute value, the
amount is quite low. Everything is a question of relative
value between the payment and what you can get for.
Morover, cultural actions and events might get
subventions from macronational organisations, is it out
of purpose to think that NR could take advantage on this?

I personnaly doubt of a strong increase of NR activities
after the instauration of taxes. I really would prefer a
practical beginning in a management of ponctual budgets
link to precise and concrete actions. I think this will
also be better accepted by citizens, some of them fearing
in the actual project to pay for nothing and not knowing
what is done with their money.

Bene Valete
Ianus Querius Armoricus Lutecio
Propraetor Galliae

> ---------- Initial message -----------
>
> From : "S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
> To : "Nova Roma" <novaroma@-------->
> Cc :
> Date : Tue, 15 May 2001 18:07:13 +0200
> Subject : [novaroma] Taxation, no? Some comments
>
> Salvete Quirites,
>
> I think it was Nietzsche who said that the best way to
defeat a thesis is
> to defend it with the wrong arguments; I think this has
happened in the
> case of Artorius.
>
> For the record, I am not against taxes, but I am
definitely against a
> system that makes people who have time, brains and
ability unable to stand
> for office -- unless someone else pays their tax. Both
Senatores Octavius
> and Maximus are very noble in being willing to pay
another magistrate's
> expenses, and this is an admirable example of Romanitas.
>
> However, I think that many people would have moral
problems if someone else
> would pay for them (poor people don't like being
treated as poor people,
> even though the donor has a good heart). Even more;
other individuals could
> abuse this practice in both ways; the "takers" faking
their poorness, or
> the "givers" who expect political favours in return
(note: I don't mean in
> any way this would be the case with the offers of both
Octavius and Maximus
> -- certainly not!).
>
> I still think placing people who don't °want° to pay in
the 5th century is
> good enough, and that solutions should be worked out
for the considerably
> large minority that °can't° pay. Resigning because of
the current lex being
> voted in is not cowardice; I think not allowing any
alternatives is.
> Nodding in obedience is not my definition of Romanitas,
and it's certainly
> not on the Virtues list.
>
> In short, since the current proposal has generated so
much debate, it might
> have been better to bring it back to the drawing table.
>
> Valete bene,
> Draco
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

--------------
Jusqu'ŕ 60 heures gratuites
pour toute souscription ŕ l'un des
nouveaux Forfaits Liberty Surf
http://register.libertysurf.fr/subscribe_fr/signup.php3

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Answers to various replies to my post
From:	Odysseus49@--------
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 17:02:53 -0000

Salve Marcus Sentius Claudius,

> Don't give me that bull - you played the Poor Uni Student card as
it suited
> you -

If you'd read my message properly, you'd have seen that the poor Uni
Student was NOT me.

moral grounds ??? - yeah right - well how moral is it that you have
> such a senior position in Nova and you threaten to resign over this
issue -
> how moral is that ???

Oh dear. You didn't read my message well, did you? In my answer to
Sulla, who voiced the same concern, albeit more politely, I said that
I was NOT threatening to resign, but that the Lex Vedia does not
allow non-taxpayers to hold office, and that I would not pay taxes on
principle. So I would be unable to hold office.

> You made a commitment to Nova and it's citizens to the position and
you need
> to at least have the moral character to see it through - you sound
to me
> like a spoilt child - you don't get your way and off you go...

The Bull that you accused me of showing makes a second appearance.

> By the way - I am sure the Inland Revenue Authorities also accept
your
> position in not paying taxes - you would be the first to benefit
from paid
> for Police Forces, FREE health care and god knows what else

I DO pay taxes to Britain, precisely because they provide that. At
the moment, I feel the current lex being voted on is too harsh. That
is why I probably won't pay.

- where does all
> that come from - I guess someone is out the back of number 10 just
prints
> money when the Government needs it - what a Utopia you must live
in...

Yes, the Utopia where I get screeched at for voicing my opinion.

Vale,
Titus Sertorius Albinus.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Taxation, no? Some comments
From:	"Nick R. Ramos Jr." <nramos@-------->
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 17:23:35 -0000

Salve, Draco!

Your comments on this issue are most welcome and refreshing -
however,
may I also comment on an assumption you are making?

Scripsit:

> I still think placing people who don't °want° to pay in the
5th
century is
> good enough, and that solutions should be worked out for the
considerably
> large minority that °can't° pay. Resigning because of the
current
lex being
> voted in is not cowardice; I think not allowing any alternatives is.

Respondeo:

There is an assumption here that there is a considerably large
minority that cannot pay taxes. How is that fact being determined? I
think we can agree that it will certainly be a difficult task to
determine who can't pay versus who won't pay; wouldn't that line of
reasoning also bear out that your assumption on the number of those
who can't pay may not be a valid one?

Another thing disturbs me about your argument as presented here -
resigning is being used yet again as a debating tool. I do not see
any of the proponents of this lex threatening to resign if it doesn't
pass - why even bring up this type of veiled threat? It weakens what
otherwise is a solid exposition of principles and thoughts.

It will be very difficult indeed to build any sort of nation when
opposition to the construction of the frameworks for the same
consists of this type of argument. Curiously enough, this lex does not
set taxes up - what it does is establish what level of participation
in the Res Publica a citizen can expect given whether he/she pays or
does not pay taxes. If any argument could be made against the lex, it
would be that perhaps we need to construct the tax code first and then
establish penalties/incentives for noncompliance or compliance with
it. Even that argument is weak, for there is no real "penalty" (i.e.
loss of citizenship or voice in our polites) attached to this lex,
and whatever penalty may apply can be eliminated by something as
simple as remission of taxes ( yes, there can be remission of taxes;
luckily, we are NOT attempting to reconstruct the Principate and it's
"sine missione" policies).

You are right to be concerned about some exclusion of talent - but I
will also postulate that unless we live in a perfect world, we will
have to cope with losses and lack of maximum efficiency. We live in a
real world, where the best solution may not always be feasible
because of cost or implementation issues. That may sometimes force us
to seek a compromise which causes the minimum amount of grief and
gives us a satisfactory outcome. The Senate may well want to consider
some of the points you have eloquently brought up when it convenes to
craft a solution to this issue of taxation.

In Amicitia et Dignitas - Optime Vale, mi Draco!

Marius Cornelius Scipio
Aedilis Curulis

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] Formosanus the Irritant
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 14:26:05 -0400 (EDT)

Citizen Formosanus and Citizens of Nova Roma;

I have read many words from Citizen Formosanus over the last months, and
I have agreed with very few of them, quite frankly. However, this is an
open forum, and one which works fairly well to get the ideas of a
micronation across, and I do not normally mind someone who has a
different opinion, even when that different opinion(s) are paraded
endlessly across this communication net to the boredom of those who have
heard it all before.

Repitition is a very good way to get your own way with things--children
use it with mothers at inopprotune times to get candy, toys and other
such shiny things that children are attached to. In a more adult venue
the same tactic can be used if the person producing the stream of
material has no long term goals except to get his / her own way or to
have a goal that may be hidden from the casual eye.

I have such a casual eye, as I am not poltically astute as many would
say, and I must agree. I aspire to improve the state and thereby the
sitation of the people therein, and it is my perpetually opptimistic
view, that the half-filled glass of water is in fact one-half full,
while the pessimist declares the glass of water to be one-half empty.
Not being very astute, I have not had the wit to grasp the thrust of
Citizen Formosanus and Company until just recently. My apologies for my
slow realizations.

Citizen Formosanus and his friends wish to be the "Irritant" of the
micronation or perhaps I should use a kinder title "niggling
conscience."
This realization explains many things that hitherto have been a puzzle
to me. Why would an intelligent gentleman delibertly bring down upon
his head criticism? Why??-- Because the "candy-shiny thing" he seeks is
far more important to him than the immediate invective that such actions
invokes. He knows that he. like the "child and the candy-shiny thing"
will be forgiven by those with a short memory in the long term, and
those Citizens whom both he and I know to be kind of heart and of a
gentle nature, much as the indulgent parent forgives the recalcitrent
child.

He and his company apparently aspire to be the "burr under the saddle"
of Nova Roma, the reminder that we should go slow, stand down, organize
less, talk more, be cautious, accentuate the individual, and reduce the
strength of the majority, etc.

Well, in my view, that position is needed in all organizations, and I am
content with his apparently sought after role. I will always listen to
the "other side" as it is the prudent thing to do, and I will always
search my own decisions to determine why they are so different from my
opponents, and weigh the difference carefully. Why do I do this?? Well
my friends, because I am not quick, and many of my decisions effect many
Citizens and I wish to be correct in my attempts to do the work I have
pledged to do.

However, there is one area in which I take greatet possible offense, and
that is the area of misnaming. This is NOT an oligarchy, this is a
Republic!!!! The Magistrates are elected, and from those elections and
from long service to the micronation the Senators are appointed. The
Senate undertakes to meet the needs of the people in accord with the
laws and Constitution that we have agreed to abide by and by the Leges
approved by the Citizenship. These men and women of the Senate, strive
to do thier best, and are not consumed by greed for authority, or
averice, they are in place to do honor to the micronation and consider
those ideas placed before them by the Citizens, within the pattern which
can be accomodated by people who also have outside lives to live and who
have vocations to pursue, families to raise, and other commitments to
fulfill. The Tribunes are appointed by the people and are active as
official officers on guard for the rights of the people. Some of these
elected seleted people do the job better than others, but all are
hard-working people for this Micronation, in my view, for if they were
not I would not be here.

The variety of Sodalitas and Discussion Lists are slowly establishing
the fabric and culture of this micronation.

My Consulship, those preceeding and those following are and were allowed
by the Citizens of Nova Roma and when you suggest otherwise you insult
me specifically and they in general terms. I am not now an Oligarch,
nor have I ever been, and I do not intend to be. I have followed
closely the rules of this micronation, and attended strictly to the view
that the Majority Rules, and the Minority View is allowed and protected.
No Oligarch ever allowed that.

So I say to you Citizen Formosanus, I can appreciate your views and your
belief in your undertaking and I agree to a certain degree with the
necessity for it-----BUT-----your sweeping and inaccurate
generalizations and veiled insults I can niether stomach nor approve.
Do your thing by all means, but when you object, I ask that you not
create new and inaccurate titles for that to which you cannot agree.

If I have misconstrued your words and intent, then you have my apology,
but to me at this point your words are pointed insults and I take this
way of confronting you directly with my preferences and wishes. That
you may ignore them is a real possibiliy, but as a gentleman I will
expect your response.

Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] Voting Code
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 14:40:29 -0400 (EDT)

Senator Marcus Octavious Germanicus;

I must come before the Citizens of Nova Roma to compliment you on your
very clever and excellent Voting Code delivery device. I tried it out
of curiosity and with the expectation that such an inept Internet Player
as I should surely have problems, but the transaction went smoothly and
I had the Voting Code before I could get back to the Mail List.

My thanks for a clever and very useful program. I am duly impressed,
sir!!!

I have another question for you or for whoever wishes to respond, in
regard to a message recieved the other day. It was obviously a "spam"
message, but it was sent from me to me, and I had never seen either it
or the message content before. I was very surprised, and the experience
was a bit scary in that by logical extention if someone unknown to me
can send me a message with me as the sender for "spamming" purposes, can
that person send an E-Mail Message from me to someone else for a more
sinister purpose without my knowledge?? If that ability is available
here on the Web, I would think that we would all be concerned about that
possibility.

Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!

http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Voting Code
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 18:55:23 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, jmath669642reng@w... wrote:

>
> I have another question for you or for whoever wishes to respond, in
> regard to a message recieved the other day. It was obviously
a "spam"
> message, but it was sent from me to me, and I had never seen either
it
> or the message content before. I was very surprised, and the
experience
> was a bit scary in that by logical extention if someone unknown to
me
> can send me a message with me as the sender for "spamming"
purposes, can
> that person send an E-Mail Message from me to someone else for a
more
> sinister purpose without my knowledge?? If that ability is
available
> here on the Web, I would think that we would all be concerned about
that
> possibility.
>
Salve,

E-mail wasn't designed to be secure. It's very easy to forge the
headers of the messages where the from and to info is stored, so yes
it's easy to send faked messages.

Because of this some people use "electronic signitures", which use
the same technology as encryption. The two most popular programs for
this purpose are PGP (Pretty Good Privicy) and GPG (Gnu Privicy Gaurd)

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Voting Code
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <haase@-------->
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 13:57:27 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Proconsul Marce Minuci,

> I must come before the Citizens of Nova Roma to compliment you on your
> very clever and excellent Voting Code delivery device. [...]
> My thanks for a clever and very useful program. I am duly impressed,
> sir!!!

Thanks! Ususally during elections I get at least four requests a day
from citizens who need voter codes, and have to go look up each one
(verifying the email address in the process). I wanted to avoid that
this time; the tool to mail out voter codes automatically took only
about a half hour to build, and it ensures that the code goes only
to the registered email address of a citizen.

Truly, most programmers are motivated mainly by laziness!

> I have another question for you or for whoever wishes to respond, in
> regard to a message recieved the other day. It was obviously a "spam"
> message, but it was sent from me to me, and I had never seen either it
> or the message content before.

That happens occasionally. The chance that the spam sender picked your
address at random to use as his return address is extremely small...
instead, this was caused by either of two things -- for every spam he
sent out, his software made the "To" and "From" addresses the same, in
order to bypass filters. In that case, your name was on the "From" line
for your copy, but none the other spam victims saw it there, they saw
their own names instead.

The second, and more likely possibility, is that the mail was
originally sent out without a "From" line entirely. When it arrived
at your mail server (webtv.net), your server saw that the From line
was missing, and inserted one. This is especially likely if your mail
is forwarded between several servers (even if they're all within
webtv's network). In order to deliver the mail to you, the mail server
process runs with your user ID as it writes to your mailbox
(this is normal), and therefore your name was the one it chose.

Either way, it's harmless. I get spam like that fairly often.

> can send me a message with me as the sender for "spamming" purposes, can
> that person send an E-Mail Message from me to someone else for a more
> sinister purpose without my knowledge??

Unfortunately, forging email addresses is trivially easy, as the protocol
used for mail has no way of checking to see who opened the connection. Any
programmer of web applications that send out mail regularly puts addresses
on the "From" line other than the real one -- in fact, I use that
technique in the voter code mailing application, to make it look like
the mail came from "webmaster@--------", an address that exists
only as an alias for my own mailbox. Spammers and impersonators could
use this for their own evil purposes. If someone decided to
impersonate you, the only way we could catch them would be by carefully
examining the headers to see what systems the message had passed through,
and how that route through the network differs from what route we
normally see your messages take.

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] Is there something wrong with me?
From:	<domusludus@-------->
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 18:25:25 -0000

Salvete,

I have been glancing at bits and pieces of this tax thread and I'm really confused. Many of you remember me from WAY back, when I'd just joined NR and was afraid of taxes, thinking they would be like US taxes or somehting. I'd just come from being homeless and was still boarderline penniless (literally). For the longest time, I was a member of NR viacariously through Sulla things were so bad.

Things have improved big time for me since then. However, I don't remember my panic at taxes being explained away like they were this time. I don't believe they mentioned 12 dollars a year last time. Heck, 12 dollars a year is NOTHING!!!! Even the welfare mother I was two and a half years ago could have afforded 12 dollars a year!! That boils down to a dollar a month, or 50 cents every other week, or every time you get paid. Paternus, my husband, and I can afford that, and we're the better part of 20,000 dollars in debt as we type.

So I must ask: Is there something wrong with me? I voted yes to the taxes. It just makes sense to me.

Pax vobiscum,
Seia Silvania Atia

Founder: Sodalis Familiaris http://home.earthlink.net/~domusludus/

The Temple of Juno
http://home.earthlink.net/~domusludus/temple/

The Domus Ludus Library
http://mylibrary.keeboo.com/public/domusludus/

<< powered by http://www.norada.com >>

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] Invalid Voter Code
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 15:18:39 -0400

Salvete Quirites: The following tracking number represents an invalid voter code. The citizen who has this thracking number please check that you have not confused a letter with a number, and try to vote again.

Tracking Number # 6117

Gratias tibi ago, ... Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato
Rogator

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] Voter Confusion
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 15:32:42 -0400

Salvete Quirites: It is clear that some voters are confusing letters with numbers in the voting process. This leads to repeat voting and invalid votes. The problem centers on replaceing zeros with the letter "O" (oh) and capital "I" (eye) with the number "1" (one) and the reverse. I would like to remind the voters that you voter code consists of three letters, followed by three numbers, and to try and not confuse the two of them. This will ensure that your vote will count, and that you do not end up with an invalid vote as a result of using an invalid voter code that is not in the Database.

We would like to make sure that all voting citizens get the opportunity to make their decision count in the election and voting on leges. I hope that those concerned see this post in order to keep these errors to an absolute minimum. As we all realize, it is of utmost importance that everyone get the opportunity to exercise their franchise.

Ave atque vale, ... Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato
Rogator

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] Invalid Voter Codes - More
From:	"Domna Claudia Auspicata" <comptess@-------->
Date:	Wed, 16 May 2001 08:28:29 +1200

Salvete Quirites

Here are a few more...

6119
6120
6121

Check your Voter Code and try again, contact the Rogators and Censors if you are still having problems. Please don't try and make any up ;-)

Valete
Domna Claudia Auspicata
Rogator
----- Original Message -----
From: A. Cato
To: novaroma@--------
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 7:18 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Invalid Voter Code

Salvete Quirites: The following tracking number represents an invalid voter code. The citizen who has this thracking number please check that you have not confused a letter with a number, and try to vote again.

Tracking Number # 6117

Gratias tibi ago, ... Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato
Rogator

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] Nerva makes up for remark.
From:	gcassiusnerva@--------
Date:	Tue, 15 May 2001 19:55:25 EDT

In a message dated 5/15/01 5:17:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
LSergAust@-------- writes:<<However I have no patience with your presumption
in lecturing to me about
how I should think or speak here. In the unlikely event that I feel the
need for tutelege from you on such matters, I will let you know. Don't
hold your breath.>>

Well said! And I too have no patience with politically correct sensitivity
mongers, self appointed directors of public morals that they are.

However, since I am the one who posted the reply which has aroused such
indignation, I will make amends. Today I wrote a contribution check for
fifty dollars to Nova Roma. Twenty five dollars from myself, and another
twenty five dollars for Petrus Artorius Longinus, to cover his taxi fares for
two years.

Gaius Cassius Nerva

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/