Forum Romanum


Subject:	[novaroma] Taxes
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:13:02 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete Quirites,

I find it interesting that so many think the purpose
of membership fees (If we are to be the Roman Club) or
Taxes (If we are to be a Nation) are just some trick
to drive off citizens.

I'll admit that it may cause some to leave Nova Roma,
but if we don't have the funds to make Nova Roma more
than a few mailing lists we will continue to see new
citizens enroll post to the lists for a time, and then
become inactive because there is nothing to hold thier
intrest. We have allready "lost" a great many citizens
to this lapse into inactivity, and we don't have funds
we will continue to lose more people than the number
who will leave over 12.00 a year.

Many of you think the few services that Nova Roma has
are free, but you are mistaken, you may not be paying
for them, but I assure you somebody is. Take our mail
lists for example. We are using Yahoogroups. They
aren't charging us any money (now). Yahoo is paying
for this service to promote thier site, but they could
decide that the cost of this service isn't worth the
ammount of promotion they recive and end it with
little or no notice. Don't make the mistake of
thinking those banner ads are making Yahoo a lot of
money either. At best they defray a small part of the
cost. Nobody is making money off internet ads (except
spammers). We are also paying a price, the uncertainty
of not being able to rely on allways having this
service, and the problems that not having full control
of our mail lists entail.

Then there is our website. You may not be paying for
it, but that dosen't mean it's free. Marcus Octavius
is paying these costs out of his pocket. I don't know
the terms he has with his provider, but I do know what
my site costs. I pay a fixed monthly fee for up to a
certain ammount of bandwidth (Megabytes downloaded)
and extra if I excede my bandwidth allotment. My
monthly fee for a small site is $30.00, so if Marcus
Octavius has a similar arrangement the website is
costing him at least $360.00 a year and thats only if
he dosen't excede his bandwidth limits. Think about
that the next time you complain about $12.00 a year.
That figure Dosen't include the time he is donating,
time that he could be making a considerable ammount of
money freelancing for a site that pays for a
webmaster. Marcus Octavius, Thank you for your
generosity!

Some of you may be aware that I'm working on a Web
Browser for Nova Roma, and may have even tried the
preview I posted. Can any of you guess why I placed
that preview on Yahoo groups instead of asking for
space on Nova Roma's server? Because downloading that
file costs bandwidth, and bandwidth costs money. Yahoo
was willing to absorb that cost so I didn't add to the
cost of running the Nova Roma website. That was a
fairly small file that required a download of Mozilla
(cost absorbed by AOL), but the final release will
have too many features for me to be able to piggyback
a patch on top of Mozilla. It will be about a 8
Megabyte file, too big for including in Yahoo groups
files. 8Meg downloads eat bandwidth so the lack of
funds could hamper this project. I fully intend to
complete Basilica, but how easy it will be for you to
get a copy is up in the air.

Valete,
Lucius Sicinius Drusus

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/


Subject:	[novaroma] RE: nation vs club perspective (too long)
From:	"Marek Grajek" <MarekJG@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 00:09:37 +0200

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Oppius Flaccus Severus [mailto:oppiusflaccus@--------]
> Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 11:02 PM
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: [novaroma] Inclusion vs. Exclusion -A different perspective<Long>
>
> ----------------- snip -----------------------------
> In actuality, many of the tangential discussions that
> have been going on of late still come down to the
> same thing -'what do we think of when we think of NR.'
> To some of us, it's a quasi-organization. To some of us,
> it's just a club. To some of us it is a curiosity or
> hobby toy at best. To others it is a nation -and all
> points in between.
>
> So, in going forward -I propose that the 'macroquestion'
> if you will, continues to be 'Nation vs. club/group/organization.'
> Since myself and others have spoken at length regarding
> this point before, I will not go into 'dissertation'
> mode. Suffice it to say for the point of discussion,
> those that view NR as a club/group/org are obviously
> going to see NR in a *drastically* different way
> than those that see it as a *Nation.* It is not up to
> me to say which perspective is right or wrong, but
> answering the question makes a huge difference in
> where we go from here.
>
> Personally (usual disclaimers apply,) I'm of the
> 'Nation' school of thought. Am I saying that my
> way is the 'right' way? No. But it is how I feel and
> as such, it affects everything I do and say in
> regards to Nova Roman discussions.
> -------------------------- snip --------------------------
> Bene valete,
> Oppius

Salve,

A Nation, yes, but a very particular kind of a nation. In the contemporary
world you are usually born as a member of this or that nation. Some of us
enjoy occasionally a rare freedom of choice of the nation we belong to,
mostly due to the taxation level differences. In general - choosing the
nation you feel at home is an exception rather than a rule in the
contemporary world. When you consider that most of us (if not all,
considering NR's lack of suppression apparatus) elected to join the
community as a result of their free and unconstrainted decision - that gives
your Nation perspective a new sense.

We are the members of a Nation born out of Spirit rather, than the
Structure. It is much easier to build up the structure, than to demonstrate
the very existence of the common spirit. Any new community I learned in my
life had a natural tendency of:

- building up some kind of of the formal structure,
- building up its very own jargon,
- defining it limits and building a (lower or higher) wall separating it
from the outside world.

This is not appropriate for this kind of a Nation we try to build. This is
not appropriate for a number of reasons of both practical and historical
nature. Do you remember times when there was no Rome? When hordes of
barbarians were building their order on the graves of the ancient emperors?
There was however something that was alive through all the Dark Ages: the
very idea of Rome, the very idea of multinational, multicultural Empire -
the Spirit we bear in our hearts. This community was born out of the Spirit
and replacing the Spirit with the Structure or even making the Structure
dominating over the Spirit would mean rejecting our own roots.

The structure of the formal rights and obligations you mention is a
relatively new invention, which might be attributed to the XIX century
nation states. The past used to be far more tolerant. In the old Rome many
nations, many religions, many cultures and traditions used to live together.
Double loyalty - one to the Rome and the emperor, one to the local tradition
of your town/tribe/country - was somethig usual, something obvious. Look,
how that structure of the old Roman society resembles us, coming each from
his own tradition, bearing the burden of his own customs and the loyalty to
his natural environment.

We have to learn to live like our ancient Roman predecessors did, we have to
learn to live within the double loyalty scheme. Moreover, to draw the most
and the best from our common efforts, we have to learn to contribute, or
even to require from everyone contributing what her/his native
tradition/nation/tribe has to offer, and relying on the Spirit as an
integrating factor.

I was born and have spent most of my life in one of the communist states,
where the Structure was everything. Where there was no place for the Spirit,
even less space for the double loyalty, for the diversity. I admit that this
experience might have distorted my perspective of the mutual balance between
the Structure and the Spirit. The stronger I will argue however that we are
bound to construct the community (or a Nation, as you like) open for people
coming from variuos parts of the contemporary world, bearing the burden of
diversified experiences, representing different traditions. I cannot imagine
these goals to be attainable in a society where the Structure prevails over
the Spirit.

I was born in a society whose shape resembled once the structure of the old
Roman empire - many nations/religions/traditions/cultures living peacefully
together, under the control of the relatively loose structure. Yes, it is
true that this loose structure was no match for the neighbouring absolute
powers/tyrannies, which led to the collapse of so organized state. But the
spirit of the community planted in this society was strong enough to survive
over 150 years of supression and to rebuild the state, once the conditions
permitted that. Is it not similar to the story of the Spirit of Rome, giving
now birth to the Nation in our hearts?

I fear that giving the Structure priority over the Spirit we would not only
reject the very tradition of the tolerant, multinational and multicultural
Roman emipre, but also reject the valuable contribution of our brothers, who
are not ready or who cannot accept the single loyalty system and the
Structure it implies.

Let's get used to it, after all the progress always used to be the fruit of
efforts of the few, but the happy few.

Vale,

Cneus Marius Aquilius

-----------------R--E--K--L--A--M--A-----------------
Lepsze wiadomosci z kraju i z zagranicy.
Nie wierzysz? Sprawdz: http://wiadomosci.interia.pl/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <hucke@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 19:31:09 -0500 (CDT)

Salve L. Sicini,

> Then there is our website. You may not be paying for
> it, but that dosen't mean it's free. Marcus Octavius
> is paying these costs out of his pocket. I don't know
> the terms he has with his provider, but I do know what
> my site costs.

$350 a month. That's what it costs to have a server physically located
in the office of an ISP - even a sm all one. And having my own server
allows much greater flexibility than having a "virtual host" at an ISP.

Of course, Nova Roma isn't the only site on my server -- but it is by
far the busiest.

So you can see why I despair when people protest being asked to pay
$12 a year. :)

Vale, Octavius.

---
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Taxes
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 00:48:17 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Marcus Octavius Germanicus <hucke@c...> wrote:
> Salve L. Sicini,
>
> > Then there is our website. You may not be paying for
> > it, but that dosen't mean it's free. Marcus Octavius
> > is paying these costs out of his pocket. I don't know
> > the terms he has with his provider, but I do know what
> > my site costs.
>
> $350 a month. That's what it costs to have a server physically located
> in the office of an ISP - even a sm all one. And having my own server
> allows much greater flexibility than having a "virtual host" at an ISP.
>
> Of course, Nova Roma isn't the only site on my server -- but it is by
> far the busiest.
>
> So you can see why I despair when people protest being asked to pay
> $12 a year. :)
>
> Vale, Octavius.
>
>
> ---
> M. Octavius Germanicus
> Propraetor, Lacus Magni
> Curator Araneum et Senator

Salvete Quirites,

Read this carefully, and another recent post by our Censor about the
costs he incurs in providing his services.

We have attempted to make Nova Roma a more open society than Roma
Antiquita was, but if we insist on having our magistrates pay the
costs of thier offices then we are creating a two tiered nation. The
top rung will allways be held by the few citizens who are able and
willing to absorb these kinds of costs, while the rest of the citizens
are in effect excluded from holding these offices.

Would you vote for a lex that limited higher offices in our Republic
to persons who enjoyed a certain income level?

As long as we don't have taxes, that is the unwritten lex we now live
under.

Valete
L. Sicinius Drusus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Taxes
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 22:04:59 -0400

Salve: I would like to add my two sesterti worth to his discussion. I as
well believe that we require some form of income for Nova Roma in order to
facilitate growth in the real world. I myself discovered to a small extent
just what is involved in expense when I won election to the office of
Rogator. Please don't misunderstand me. I am not complaining of what it has
cost me. I am more than willing to bear the small expense that it has cost
to this point. It has been much smaller then the costs born by our higher
magistrates.
It was necessary for me to get a filing system set up for which I
purchased supplies. I learned something about Excel 2000 which I also
acquired. Having not done a job of this nature before, I took one day off of
my regular job for each of the first two elections I was involved in. This
was a respectable amount of income given up. I had to purchase printer
supplies, and spend much time organizing data and entering it into the Excel
program. My family did without a husband and father for a few weeks while I
worked weekends at my regular job to make up for my lost days I worked on
the elections. I would get home and study Excel books, and experiment with
the program, and then spend hours and hours working on the election.
As I stated above, I am not complaining. I explain this here simply to
let others know the amount of work that I have already done, and the
expense that I have carried, is nothing compared to what our Consuls,
Censores, and others have borne. We do this out of a love for Nova Roma and
a strong belief in what it represents and can become. I do not expect any
payment personally. What I have spent and given up is done with no thought
of compensation.
We all owe our Consuls, Censores, Curator Araneae, and many others who
have given so much in time, work, and out of pocket expense a great deal. I
haven't heard them come out and demand anything. This speaks volumnes about
their love of Nova Roma. Where would Nova Roma be without them?
I would ask all citizens to seriously consider donating at least twelve
bucks a year to Nova Roma. There is much that can be done in the real world
with that money. And our dreams of what Nova Roma could become in the real
world would come closer to reality. It is such a small amount to ask. Again
this is my humble opinion, and I only speak about this as a citizen.
----- Original Message -----
From: <lsicinius@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 8:48 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Taxes

> --- In novaroma@--------, Marcus Octavius Germanicus <hucke@c...> wrote:
> > Salve L. Sicini,
> >
> > > Then there is our website. You may not be paying for
> > > it, but that dosen't mean it's free. Marcus Octavius
> > > is paying these costs out of his pocket. I don't know
> > > the terms he has with his provider, but I do know what
> > > my site costs.
> >
> > $350 a month. That's what it costs to have a server physically located
> > in the office of an ISP - even a sm all one. And having my own server
> > allows much greater flexibility than having a "virtual host" at an ISP.
> >
> > Of course, Nova Roma isn't the only site on my server -- but it is by
> > far the busiest.
> >
> > So you can see why I despair when people protest being asked to pay
> > $12 a year. :)
> >
> > Vale, Octavius.
> >
> >
> > ---
> > M. Octavius Germanicus
> > Propraetor, Lacus Magni
> > Curator Araneum et Senator
>
> Salvete Quirites,
>
> Read this carefully, and another recent post by our Censor about the
> costs he incurs in providing his services.
>
> We have attempted to make Nova Roma a more open society than Roma
> Antiquita was, but if we insist on having our magistrates pay the
> costs of thier offices then we are creating a two tiered nation. The
> top rung will allways be held by the few citizens who are able and
> willing to absorb these kinds of costs, while the rest of the citizens
> are in effect excluded from holding these offices.
>
> Would you vote for a lex that limited higher offices in our Republic
> to persons who enjoyed a certain income level?
>
> As long as we don't have taxes, that is the unwritten lex we now live
> under.
>
> Valete
> L. Sicinius Drusus
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Taxes
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 22:10:52 -0400

Salve: I get that all typed out and then forget to sign my name. Well, ...
here it is.
Vale, ... A. Cato
----- Original Message -----
From: "A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Taxes

> Salve: I would like to add my two sesterti worth to his discussion. I
as
> well believe that we require some form of income for Nova Roma in order to
> facilitate growth in the real world. I myself discovered to a small extent
> just what is involved in expense when I won election to the office of
> Rogator. Please don't misunderstand me. I am not complaining of what it
has
> cost me. I am more than willing to bear the small expense that it has cost
> to this point. It has been much smaller then the costs born by our higher
> magistrates.
> It was necessary for me to get a filing system set up for which I
> purchased supplies. I learned something about Excel 2000 which I also
> acquired. Having not done a job of this nature before, I took one day off
of
> my regular job for each of the first two elections I was involved in. This
> was a respectable amount of income given up. I had to purchase printer
> supplies, and spend much time organizing data and entering it into the
Excel
> program. My family did without a husband and father for a few weeks while
I
> worked weekends at my regular job to make up for my lost days I worked on
> the elections. I would get home and study Excel books, and experiment with
> the program, and then spend hours and hours working on the election.
> As I stated above, I am not complaining. I explain this here simply
to
> let others know the amount of work that I have already done, and the
> expense that I have carried, is nothing compared to what our Consuls,
> Censores, and others have borne. We do this out of a love for Nova Roma
and
> a strong belief in what it represents and can become. I do not expect any
> payment personally. What I have spent and given up is done with no thought
> of compensation.
> We all owe our Consuls, Censores, Curator Araneae, and many others
who
> have given so much in time, work, and out of pocket expense a great deal.
I
> haven't heard them come out and demand anything. This speaks volumnes
about
> their love of Nova Roma. Where would Nova Roma be without them?
> I would ask all citizens to seriously consider donating at least
twelve
> bucks a year to Nova Roma. There is much that can be done in the real
world
> with that money. And our dreams of what Nova Roma could become in the real
> world would come closer to reality. It is such a small amount to ask.
Again
> this is my humble opinion, and I only speak about this as a citizen.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <lsicinius@-------->
> To: <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 8:48 PM
> Subject: [novaroma] Re: Taxes
>
>
> > --- In novaroma@--------, Marcus Octavius Germanicus <hucke@c...> wrote:
> > > Salve L. Sicini,
> > >
> > > > Then there is our website. You may not be paying for
> > > > it, but that dosen't mean it's free. Marcus Octavius
> > > > is paying these costs out of his pocket. I don't know
> > > > the terms he has with his provider, but I do know what
> > > > my site costs.
> > >
> > > $350 a month. That's what it costs to have a server physically
located
> > > in the office of an ISP - even a sm all one. And having my own server
> > > allows much greater flexibility than having a "virtual host" at an
ISP.
> > >
> > > Of course, Nova Roma isn't the only site on my server -- but it is by
> > > far the busiest.
> > >
> > > So you can see why I despair when people protest being asked to pay
> > > $12 a year. :)
> > >
> > > Vale, Octavius.
> > >
> > >
> > > ---
> > > M. Octavius Germanicus
> > > Propraetor, Lacus Magni
> > > Curator Araneum et Senator
> >
> > Salvete Quirites,
> >
> > Read this carefully, and another recent post by our Censor about the
> > costs he incurs in providing his services.
> >
> > We have attempted to make Nova Roma a more open society than Roma
> > Antiquita was, but if we insist on having our magistrates pay the
> > costs of thier offices then we are creating a two tiered nation. The
> > top rung will allways be held by the few citizens who are able and
> > willing to absorb these kinds of costs, while the rest of the citizens
> > are in effect excluded from holding these offices.
> >
> > Would you vote for a lex that limited higher offices in our Republic
> > to persons who enjoyed a certain income level?
> >
> > As long as we don't have taxes, that is the unwritten lex we now live
> > under.
> >
> > Valete
> > L. Sicinius Drusus
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


Subject:	[novaroma] Re Taxes
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 02:21:04 -0000

Ave Cato!!!

Your message to the Forum regarding the necessity and value of taxes for
Nova Roma is well received by this propraetrix! You explain much behind the
reasoning for funding from our citizens.

Vale,
Pompeia Cornelia
Canada Orientalis
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Re Taxes
From:	mansker@--------
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 02:47:09 -0000

Salve -

Just a few words on the tax issue.

I am a new member (a little over a month), and have enjoyed my
membership so far. I was asked to be a rogator for a collegium, and
I agreed. I have donated through paypal, and have talked with my
Pater regarding becoming more active.

I feel that if you want to see a society survive, you must become
active in that society. I know that not everyone can bear the cost
of taxes, but what if you held an office that would help to lessen
the cost of running NovaRoma?

As an example: I am an accredited expert in Excel. I run a company
that does marketing. I have vast experience in a number of things,
some of which might be valuable to NovaRoma, some of which might not
be, but I would be willing to use my talents and my efforts to help
further our cause.

I would also be able to pay taxes and do not see this as an issue,
but I would also be happy to be of service rather than pay taxes if I
didn't have the money. (I hereby state that I would be happy to be of
service anyway, if anyone needs me for anything).

I think that if people were given an option to either pay taxes or
due service that would benefit NovaRoma, it would allow those who
didn't have the money to still become a citizen, become active, and
help NovaRoma at the same time.

I would be interested in hearing what others think of this idea.

Bene,

Gaia Flacca Severa

--- In novaroma@--------, "Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@h...> wrote:
> Ave Cato!!!
>
> Your message to the Forum regarding the necessity and value of
taxes for
> Nova Roma is well received by this propraetrix! You explain much
behind the
> reasoning for funding from our citizens.
>
> Vale,
> Pompeia Cornelia
> Canada Orientalis
>
______________________________________________________________________
___
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
http://www.hotmail.com.


Subject:	[novaroma] Taxes
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 02:57:58 -0000

Salvete Gaia et alii:

The question of certain people not being able to afford taxes has been
discussed. Two or three people have put forth the idea of either these
individuals rendering their services as a scribe, etc. in lieu of taxes, or
placing them in a century or tribe with less voting power than a taxpaying
citizen.

Although I cannot speak for every individual in a magistracy, it is not the
intent to disqualify hardworking, eager citizens for having lack of funds;
it is the matter of the cold, hard truth where we will need funding to keep
going, and to do any kind of growth as a nation.

As Lucius Cornelius Sulla put it, and Tullius Cato et al. augmenting, the
magistrates cannot keep shelling out the money from their own pockets to
keep Nova Roma operational.

This republic belongs to all of us, and we must all take responsibility for
its upkeep and future endeavors.

I hope I have clarified some things.

Bene valete,
Pompeia Cornelia
Propraetrix pro temp
Canada Orientalis
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.


Subject:	Re: FWD: Re: [novaroma] Inclusion vs. Exclusion
From:	Gaia Natalina Casca <gaianatalinacasca@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 20:08:52 -0700 (PDT)

> Sulla: Unfortuantely that is a side effect for
> being a newcomer. However, as Censor, I try to be
> approachable to every member of Nova Roma, whether
> you are a citizen or pending for citizenship. The
> fact is, Gaia Natalina, that there are people who
> have been in NR for over 3 years and some who have
> been in NR for little more than a week.

GN:I'm sure this is true, and I realize that. I was
only trying to offer a perspective that might not have
occured to those who have been around for a while...I
know from experience that we tend to forget these
things sometimes.

> Those of us who have been here for 3 years have
developed relationships/friendships. And, I am sure
if you are here 3 years down the road the same process
will happen to you...and then those newcomers who come
in will also feel like this is some type of exclusive
group.

GN: I'm sure that this is also true. But I hope one
of them will refresh my memory of what it looks like
to a newcomer! Sincerely, I wouldn't want to make any
one feel that way, as I am sure that you don't.
>
> Sulla: Well, certainly we cannot continue the way
> we are going now. With the magistrates footing the
> bill. I hope you agree to that.

GN:I certainly do agree to that. As I have said in
another post, I was surprised to find that an
organization of this size didn't have some sort of
membership fee involved. I was thrilled at the time,
seeing my financial position. I would have been
willing to give of my time and expertise, such as they
are, but I couldn't have afforded anything
financially.

> Sulla: We have. You might want to go to the
> Archieves and explore the 20,000 posts that are
> there. Especially those posts involving the tax
> debate. This has been an ongoing debate for almost
> two years.

GN:I was really speaking of special projects, one time
funds, etc...while we are waiting to solve the taxes
issue...I mean, if one member of the group came in
with a $300 phone bill and asked for help paying for
it, I would certainly not be adverse to sending what I
could at the time.

> Sulla: That is true, and in some of the plans
> accounted for this situation by having the governor
> have some ability to consult with the Senate to make
> certain that burdern is not so excessive to the
> province. However, being a Californian, as I
> am....$12.00 is the cost of one Pizza. That is not
> excessive for a year's dues.

GN:Ah, but I have not always been a Californian...nor
is the position of every Californian such that they
could afford to pay the dues. I'm afraid this is a
particular peeve of mine and I'm not going to let it
get forgotten easily. There are some people who have
time, skills, ideas, etc that would greatly benefit
Nova Roma who will not be able to afford taxes. Now,
there is always the possibility of setting up funds
whereby those who are willing can contribute to the
funding of the taxes for those who can not pay them...

> Sulla: Well the $500.00 I have donated to NR as
> Censor is definately excessive don't you agree? And
> that is just me. This is just for phone calls,
> office supplies (paper and ink for printer).

GH:I'm not saying that it isn't. I'm not even saying
that I would be willing to give that much. Don't
misunderstand me, I fully support the idea of
taxation. One hundred percent. I just don't want to
see us paint ourselves into a corner, or disown
someone who could be a great benefit to us all.
>

> Sulla: Well I answered that above. I try to make
> hard copies of everything I send out. And, I was
> validated in this during a recent computer crash.
> Having the paper copies of the Censor work I did
> helped us recover faster from that crash. However,
> as Censor, I am still having a phone bill of about
> 30.00 on average a month (I have not called
> overseas). But the highest my phone bill has been
> was over 80.00 per month (just for NR calls). Phone
> calls are my largest expense.

Okay, I can see all of that. We all know how phone
bills can add up. Remember, the view from the
bleachers isn't all that great...we can't see what
you're doing up there unless you let us know.
Speaking as someone who has no clue what each of the
positions is responsible for, its hard to judge how
much money is really required to do the job.

> Sulla: Well, then just what is the protest then?
> Do you think its fair that the magistrates bear the
> burden of operating Nova Roma?

I don't think I am personally protesting. I think I
am campaigning to make sure that we don't overlook
small details and to make sure that we are as
completely inclusive as we can be.

To show my committment to the idea of taxes, earlier
this evening, I made a donation to Nova Roma via
PayPal. It wasn't a lot, it was $25. Today that is
what I can afford. A month from now it may be more. I
am available to do whatever I can to take the burdeon
off of anyone. I am pretty handy with Word, Excel,
even Access. I program independent databases in
Access as a part of what I do for a living. I design
complex Excel spreadsheets for data analysis. I teach
all three of these programs and others. I have some
education in accounting. I am a writer. I can make
phone calls with the best of them. I am a data
analyst. I can do data entry. I type 60-70 wpm.

I offer myself up to Roma... do with me as you
will...but I will still be the advocate voice for
those with less financial resources, minority
situations, etc....its part of who I am...

=====
Gaia Natalina Casca
Fremont, California

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/


Subject:	FWD: Re: [novaroma] Inclusion vs. Exclusion
From:	mansker@--------
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 03:24:39 -0000

Salve Gaia -

<Snipped>
> To show my committment to the idea of taxes, earlier
> this evening, I made a donation to Nova Roma via
> PayPal. It wasn't a lot, it was $25. Today that is
> what I can afford. A month from now it may be more. I
> am available to do whatever I can to take the burdeon
> off of anyone. I am pretty handy with Word, Excel,
> even Access. I program independent databases in
> Access as a part of what I do for a living. I design
> complex Excel spreadsheets for data analysis. I teach
> all three of these programs and others. I have some
> education in accounting. I am a writer. I can make
> phone calls with the best of them. I am a data
> analyst. I can do data entry. I type 60-70 wpm.
>
> I offer myself up to Roma... do with me as you
> will...but I will still be the advocate voice for
> those with less financial resources, minority
> situations, etc....its part of who I am...
>
> =====
> Gaia Natalina Casca
> Fremont, California
>
I also made this suggestion, and I feel that this would be a
reasonable way of letting people who can afford it assist NovaRoma
financially, and those who cannot (for whatever reason)allow their
services to be used by NovaRoma to help cut costs in other ways.

Unfortunately, in the posts that I have read and the reply that I
recieved from my post, I feel that those "in the know" feel that
these suggestions will not work.

I understand the costs of running a website and an organization, and
I too have donated via PayPal. But if you want to impose taxes
(which again, I am not against), it would seem reasonable to have an
option in place for those citizens who cannot (or will not) pay them,
so that they, too, can benefit NovaRoma.

Gaia Flacca Severa
Portland, Oregon
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
> http://auctions.yahoo.com/


Subject:	[novaroma] Taxes and ideas (an addition reply to M. Octavius)
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Jerry=20Anguston?= <gaiussentius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 13:25:37 +1000 (EST)

Ave Marcus Octavius et omnes,

I'm not adverse to paying the $12.00 per year, but I
think that I am more in favor of the gens tax that
Lucius Equitius proposed earlier on. That being, that
gens pay a reasonable fee (say $15-$20) and each
additional member pays $2-$4 each. One of the reasons
that I am in favour of this is that it spares those
who do not wish to have to fork out that amount of
money on account of the fact that they participate
rarely, and those for who (and I know someone who is
in this predicament) has not seen anything like a
AUS$20 note in his wallet for a long time, since he
pays his way through University, his internet access
is government funded, and is currently poorer than a
man who remembers the last cash he had were peices of
eight!:-) The other reasons is that for gens with only
one member, it equals out the tax ratio, but with gens
with larger members, it still brings in quite an
income. Also, it would encourage people to join other
gens rather than to create their own, and prevent an
overflowing of the already large amount of gentes. I
think this is a more equitable method of taxation, as
it would allow Marcus Octavius to recoup monies spent,
and allow NR a good income while not alienating those
who are either not as fortunate, those who are only
wanting to devote to extremely small areas of Roman
life, or those who love Rome and want to relive it
merely by sharing the honor and dignity by being a
civis of Nova Roma.

I would like to hear anyone else's opinions on this
subject. I personally would like to see the ideas of
Lucius Equitius adopted on the above scale, so that
not only can Nova Roma profit, but so can its members.

Just my two aureii worth on this topic.

Valete bene,

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura

--- Marcus Octavius Germanicus <hucke@-------->
wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
Salve L. Sicini, 
 
> Then there is our website. You may not be
paying for 
> it, but that dosen't mean it's free. Marcus
Octavius 
> is paying these costs out of his pocket. I don't
know 
> the terms he has with his provider, but I do know
what 
> my site costs. 
 
$350 a month. That's what it costs to have a
server physically located 
in the office of an ISP - even a sm all one. And
having my own server 
allows much greater flexibility than having a
"virtual host" at an ISP. 
 
Of course, Nova Roma isn't the only site on my server
-- but it is by 
far the busiest. 
 
So you can see why I despair when people protest being
asked to pay 
$12 a year. :) 
 
Vale, Octavius. 
 
 
--- 
M. Octavius Germanicus 
Propraetor, Lacus Magni 
Curator Araneum et Senator 
 
</tt>

 



<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>
<td align=center><font size="-1"


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gods of the Underworld
From:	SkaldElf@--------
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 00:08:33 EDT

Ave,

I worship mainly the goddesses of the underworld i.e. Prosperina, Trivia,
Nyx, Invidia, and so forth. Not to worry you are not alone in this. If I'm
not mistaken Sextus Apollonius Draco is indeed a citizen of Belgium. Hope
this helps.

Vale,
Aeternia


Subject:	[novaroma] Office Suite
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 04:15:47 -0000

Salvete,

Ya'll are using Excell, etc.
MS Office?

UGH :oP

That program is absurdly overpriced and a massive security hole (Who
needs a Word processor that is capable of formatting your hard drive)

I strongly recomend that Nova Roma adapt Sun's Staroffice instead of
using Microsoft's virus laden office product. It has most of the
features of MSO, can import Most MSO files, and the price is a lot better.

FREE!
(Which will save us hardworking taxpayers money) ;o)

Yes, Staroffice can be downloaded for free at Suns website, or you can
order a CD with documentation for US $39.00 which is a considerable
savings over what Redmond charges. The only drawback is there isn't a
Mac version yet, but hey that Redmond company dosen't offer a version
of it's software for Linux or Solaris and Staroffice does! If you
really want a Mac Version, download the sourcecode (GNU's General
Public License) and build yourself a Mac Version ;o)

To save on download time for those using a modem, under the license
terms (Sun's BCL) Nova Roma can purchase 1 CD and offer it for
instalation on EVERY magistrates computer by sending them a copy. Yes
it's legal, not software piracy like that Redmond company's license.

See http://www.sun.com/staroffice/ for details.

Valete,
L. Sicinius Drusus


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Office Suite
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 21:47:49 -0700

Salve L. Sicini;

Yes, StarOffice has been suggested as an option
before. And yes, we have noted your bias.
Btw, you might also note that Gaia is
an accredited expert in Excel, something
which no doubt took some time and effort
(having a few certs myself in various
technical disciplines,)perhaps
deserving more than your curt dismissal.

Do we really want to go down the
comparative software road on the mainlist?
Me thinks not. Staroffice is a good
alternative for those that choose to use
it. I've used it myself on many a platform
and its has its strengths and weaknesses
like everything else. It is not a panacea,
it is not a savior to the world's 'office
suite' needs.

That being said, for the record -if someone
does not have an office suite product, Staroffice
is a nice low/no cost alternative. If
you do have an office suite, use what you're good
at, use what your comfortable with.
Software wars are something we don't need
on the main list.

Bene vale,
Oppius
-----Original Message-----
From: lsicinius@-------- [mailto:lsicinius@--------]
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 9:16 PM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Office Suite

Salvete,

Ya'll are using Excell, etc.
MS Office?

UGH :oP

<snipped>

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


Subject:	[novaroma] Party Politics in the Age of Caesar
From:	robert woolwine <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 01:06:00 -0400 (EDT)

Ave,

Recently on Ebay, I won a bid on a book by Lily Ross Taylor. Its called "Party Politics in the Age of Caesar." While I am here at work....being bored waiting for calls, I thought I would do a search on the Net for some information about this book...and here is a short article I found. I am reposting it along with the website so that if you are interested you can see where I found this.

____

Lily Ross Taylor, Party Politics in the Age of Caesar (University of California Press, Berkeley and Los Angeles, 1949) quot. pp.50, 56, 81, 96

Lily Ross Taylor's Party Politics in the Age of Caesar
J. Andrew McLaughlin
� 1996

The book Party Politics in the Age of Caesar by Lily Ross Taylor is essentially, in most instances a work relating historical fact as far as we are able to judge from extant sources. In any book of a historical nature we must take into account the choices of source material made by the author. That said, it is important to realize that in modem times we are limited in the number of accounts of history passed to us directly from the ancients. In this case, Ms. Taylor has utilized primarily the work of Cicero as the basis for historical fact in attempting to lay out her vision of late Republican- era politics in Rome. Her approach concentrates mainly on breaking down the complex nature of the politics into its component parts in the first half of the work. The second half uses this as a basis for her retelling and interpretation of specific historical events and trends of the era. Only in the third chapter do we see what the author characterizes as historical interpretation differing from the commonly accepted view.

The author has used many different sources to compose Party Politics including books, letters and published speeches, however there is a recurring theme of Cicero as primary material. Ms. Taylor makes it clear that Cicero has certain biases in favor of the optimates, or conservative nobles of the Roman Senate, however his writings are utilized throughout the work as the primary basis of historical fact. Thus we must consider whether in some instances there might exist a significant element of that bias.

The third chapter attempts to present Ms. Taylor's views of the Roman balloting system, in which she feels the rural Italian community exercised greater influence than that for which it is generally given credit. She feels that although it was much easier for urban Romans to physically attend voting procedures, the candidates for office would often rely on garnering the support of the wealthy men of the Italian towns and arrange for them to be present in Rome during the ballot. She uses by way of example the fact that candidates would often spend the better part of a year canvassing these men and making the "right" contacts in the towns and quotes a letter by Cicero's brother advising him on the proper strategy. The author holds that the urban masses were often used primarily as a tool for passing of legislation by the populates, whom Cicero says were using popular support as a weapon for personal political advancement against the optimates.

During the first five of the eight chapters of Party Politics, Ms Taylor strives to present a number of major political events of the era in each chapter while concentrating primarily on their common aspects. These chapters discuss "Personalities and Programs", "Nobles, Clients and Personal Armies", "Delivering the Vote", "Manipulating the State Religion" and "The Criminal Courts". Thus these chapters have very little in the way of a comprehensible timeline or sequence of events; rather the book will often discuss a single event in two chapters but use them to demonstrate a different point in each instance;

"When Cato was the choice ... for the praetorship, Pompey, who did not wish Cato to be elected, suddenly heard thunder and dissolved the assembly." (chapter 3, p.56)

"[Pompey] declared, after Cato had been chosen for the office by the praerogativa centuria, that he had heard thunder. Pompey dissolved the assembly..." (chapter 4, p. 8 1)

These examples of the same event serve as an illustration for the reason that the first quote is in the work intended to emphasize the importance of the praerogativa and the second as an example of manipulation of the state religion for political ends. The last three chapters relate themes and incidents illustrative of the foundations set forth in these chapters.

Although Party Politics refrains from expressing many new ideas about the politics of Rome, the work is useful as a perspective on different aspects of the subject. In particular, it contains many examples of the importance of religion and even contains a bit of philosophy on the subject of the "shocking religious abuses of [the] day" (chapter 4, P. 96). Ms. Taylor presents some thoughtful arguments about the importance of rural Italians in the voting process, and even takes a good natured swipe at the "rather sweeping statements" (chapter 3, p.50) of the differing viewpoint of one of her contemporaries. It is a notable work of historical analysis.
___

http://www.visopsys.org/andy/essays/party-politics-caesar.html

___

As anyone read this book? I would really like to hear any comments good or bad about this book.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Office Suite
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 05:50:33 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@--------> wrote:
> Salve L. Sicini;
>
> Yes, StarOffice has been suggested as an option
> before. And yes, we have noted your bias.
> Btw, you might also note that Gaia is
> an accredited expert in Excel, something
> which no doubt took some time and effort
> (having a few certs myself in various
> technical disciplines,)perhaps
> deserving more than your curt dismissal.
>
> Do we really want to go down the
> comparative software road on the mainlist?
> Me thinks not. Staroffice is a good
> alternative for those that choose to use
> it. I've used it myself on many a platform
> and its has its strengths and weaknesses
> like everything else. It is not a panacea,
> it is not a savior to the world's 'office
> suite' needs.
>
> That being said, for the record -if someone
> does not have an office suite product, Staroffice
> is a nice low/no cost alternative. If
> you do have an office suite, use what you're good
> at, use what your comfortable with.
> Software wars are something we don't need
> on the main list.
>
> Bene vale,
> Oppius
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lsicinius@-------- [mailto:lsicinius@--------]
> Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 9:16 PM
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: [novaroma] Office Suite
>
>
> Salvete,
>
> Ya'll are using Excell, etc.
> MS Office?
>
> UGH :oP
>
> <snipped>

LOL
This symbol ;o) is a wink, and signifies that there is some levity
intended in a post. There are several in my post.

That post was a rather light hearted view of something you will have
to get used to once the badly needed taxes are imposed. Sugestions
from citizens that Nova Roma spend the money wisely.

Part of the reason that taxes are needed is we can't expect our
magistrates to continue to pay the costs of holding office. To do so
severly limits the number of Citizens who will be able to afford to
stand for Office. If you have an Office Suite on your Computer, then
by all means use the Suite that's allready there.

My post was inspired by our Rogator, A. Cato, who mentioned that he
had to AQUIRE Excell after being elected. It was happenstance that
another post that I hadn't read yet also mentoned the same product,
and it wasn't aimed at Gaia.

There will be people elected to offices who don't have the software
needed to perform thier duties installed on thier computer, and in
these cases, IMHO Nova Roma should provide the needed software. To do
otherwise puts us right back to limiting office to those who have
higher incomes.

For US $39.00 Nova Roma can provide any new magistrate (except Mac
users) needing an office suite with the software to perform thier
duties. How much will it cost us prospective taxpayers to do the same
with software from that Redmond Company? (That I honestly admited my
bias against)

As Nova Roma grows she is going to need to aquire more and more
software for internal use by her officers and she should ALLWAYS get
that software at the best possible price. I'm not intrested in
starting a software war, I'm intrested in starting a price war, and
that is a war that MS loses as far as Office Suits goes.

L. Sicinius Drusus


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] RE: nation vs club perspective (too long)
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 20 Apr 2001 23:22:30 -0700

Salve Cne Mari,

A few comments below. My apologies before hand
as I'm not sure if I'm understanding your meaning
in all the statements below, so please correct
any misinterpretations made in my reply.
-----Original Message-----
<snipped>

A Nation, yes, but a very particular kind of a nation. In the contemporary
world you are usually born as a member of this or that nation. Some of us
enjoy occasionally a rare freedom of choice of the nation we belong to,
mostly due to the taxation level differences. In general - choosing the
nation you feel at home is an exception rather than a rule in the
contemporary world. When you consider that most of us (if not all,
considering NR's lack of suppression apparatus) elected to join the
community as a result of their free and unconstrainted decision - that gives
your Nation perspective a new sense.

OFS: I certainly seem to agree with what
you're saying so far. Our multinational perspective
truly one of our greatest strengths. Also, the
fact that we are all here by mutual choice.

We are the members of a Nation born out of Spirit rather, than the
Structure. It is much easier to build up the structure, than to demonstrate
the very existence of the common spirit. Any new community I learned in my
life had a natural tendency of:

- building up some kind of of the formal structure,
- building up its very own jargon,
- defining it limits and building a (lower or higher) wall separating it
from the outside world.

This is not appropriate for this kind of a Nation we try to build.

OFS: So I can clarify my understanding here, is
the issue due to the citizenship verifications,
taxation or combination of same and/or other
factors? You're favoring a Nation approach, but
with a lesser structure. If this understanding
is correct, what would your suggestions be?
If my understanding is not correct, please
clarify for me.

This is
not appropriate for a number of reasons of both practical and historical
nature. Do you remember times when there was no Rome? When hordes of
barbarians were building their order on the graves of the ancient emperors?
There was however something that was alive through all the Dark Ages: the
very idea of Rome, the very idea of multinational, multicultural Empire -
the Spirit we bear in our hearts. This community was born out of the Spirit
and replacing the Spirit with the Structure or even making the Structure
dominating over the Spirit would mean rejecting our own roots.

OFS: The same question is above. Are you saying that
from my post I am making a point to eliminate a spirit
of Rome, or eliminate our strong multicultural element
by discussing taxation and citizenship requirements?
To allow that I may be missing your point, I can but say
that my personal perspective could be no further apart
from what you're saying. Personally, I don't favor excessive
structure either beyond a few basics to allow for our
Nation to run (fiscal,) to allow for our Nation to
be managed, (basic governance,) and allow our Nation
some of the fundamental rights of any nation to attach
identity to its citizens.

The structure of the formal rights and obligations you mention is a
relatively new invention, which might be attributed to the XIX century
nation states. The past used to be far more tolerant.

OFS: There may be some mixing and matching of
posts here, but I honestly don't follow your statement
about tolerance. Is it intolerant to have the basic
'plumbing' if you will to run a nation?

In the old Rome many
nations, many religions, many cultures and traditions used to live together.
Double loyalty - one to the Rome and the emperor, one to the local tradition
of your town/tribe/country - was somethig usual, something obvious. Look,
how that structure of the old Roman society resembles us, coming each from
his own tradition, bearing the burden of his own customs and the loyalty to
his natural environment.

OFS: True. I fully agree that our greatest strength
is the great diversity of our members. I've posted
on that topic myself and couldn't agree more!

We have to learn to live like our ancient Roman predecessors did, we have to
learn to live within the double loyalty scheme. Moreover, to draw the most
and the best from our common efforts, we have to learn to contribute, or
even to require from everyone contributing what her/his native
tradition/nation/tribe has to offer, and relying on the Spirit as an
integrating factor.

OFS: Sounds good to me!

I was born and have spent most of my life in one of the communist states,
where the Structure was everything. Where there was no place for the Spirit,
even less space for the double loyalty, for the diversity. I admit that this
experience might have distorted my perspective of the mutual balance between
the Structure and the Spirit. The stronger I will argue however that we are
bound to construct the community (or a Nation, as you like) open for people
coming from variuos parts of the contemporary world, bearing the burden of
diversified experiences, representing different traditions. I cannot imagine
these goals to be attainable in a society where the Structure prevails over
the Spirit.

OFS: Your perspective is most valued in this! As for
the spirit, I truly hope that myself or others have not
given you the idea that any sense of spirit of diversity
is being subdued. If so, please clarify that we can address
these concerns.

I was born in a society whose shape resembled once the structure of the old
Roman empire - many nations/religions/traditions/cultures living peacefully
together, under the control of the relatively loose structure. Yes, it is
true that this loose structure was no match for the neighbouring absolute
powers/tyrannies, which led to the collapse of so organized state. But the
spirit of the community planted in this society was strong enough to survive
over 150 years of supression and to rebuild the state, once the conditions
permitted that. Is it not similar to the story of the Spirit of Rome, giving
now birth to the Nation in our hearts?

OFS: As to the spirit in our hearts, I agree -indeed
it what I hope we're all seeking. Though we may disagree
at times on 'how to get there,' it is my personal belief
that most of us do have the love and spirit of Roma
in our hears.

I fear that giving the Structure priority over the Spirit we would not only
reject the very tradition of the tolerant, multinational and multicultural
Roman emipre, but also reject the valuable contribution of our brothers, who
are not ready or who cannot accept the single loyalty system and the
Structure it implies.

OFS: I'll wait for clarification before commenting
much further.

Bene vale,
Oppius

<snipped>

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] ATTN: Winners of the Cerealia / Romae Conditio Festival contest
From:	QFabiusMax@--------
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 03:29:13 EDT

In a message dated 4/20/2001 1:07:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
hendrik.meuleman@-------- writes:

<>
Salvete,
Were may we go to view all the entries?
Valete
Q. Fabius Maximus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gods of the Underworld
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiberius=20Apollonius=20Cicatrix?= <consulromanus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 08:59:02 +0100 (BST)

Salve,

--- hadescallias@-------- wrote: > Does anyone at
Nova Roma follow the Gods of the
> Underworld like i do
> and are there any members from nova roma who like me
> live in belgium.
> thank you.

There are more people from Belgium than you think, I
for example am one of them, together with my fratres
Sextus Apollonius Draco, Lucius Apollonius Aquilus,
Quintus Apollonius Flaccus, Titus Apollonius Parvus
and Marcus Apollonius Tacitus. And I think I have
forgotten one. There are also Belgians in other
gentes, you might want to check out the Album
Provinciae on the Nova Roma website.

Vale

=====
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
civis Novae Romae
____________________________

"De te autem, Catilina, cum quiescunt, probant; cum patiuntur, decernunt; cum tacent, clamant." (M. Tullius Cicero: In Catilinam I, 20)

____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie


Subject:	[novaroma] Renuntatio Propraetoricium II about the first Plenum of the Consilium Provincale Thules
From:	Caeso Fabius Quintilianus <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 10:32:08 +0200

Ex Officio Propraetoris Thulae

Renuntatio Propraetoricium II
about the first Plenum of the Consilium Provincale Thules
21 April 2001
From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, Propraetor Thules

Salve All!

The Propraetor just want to assure the Nova Roma Citizens of Thule that the
Consilium Provincale Thules is in hard work for the Provincia. The first
Plenum of the Consilium Provincale Thules has been going on for nearly six
days and will continue for eight days more, ending on 29th of April. Within
a couple of days the Propraetor will publish the first few Edicts that are
the result of the first half of the work of the Consilium. During the
following more Edicts will follow.

By publishing the first two Edicts, the Regula and the Plan, the Propraetor
laid the basis for the organisation of the Provincia. Now during the first
Plenum of the Consilium, the Propraetor and his Legati and Consiliarius
continue to build on that ground. It is the firm belief of the Propraetor
that during these days the Provincia will give birth to a very complex and
strong new kind of Provincia!

There will be a lot of work to be done, to make these dreams come true! As
Propraetor I deeply hope to see more citizens step forward into the light
to take part in this revival on the Nordic ground of a reborn Nova Roman
Provincia!

Vale

Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
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************************************************
The homepage of the Nova Roma Provincia Thule:
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************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
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************************************************
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************************************************
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A Bill Of Rights
From:	"G. Noviodunus Ferriculus" <Gaius.Noviodunus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 11:03:30 +0200

Salve Legate,

Adrian Gunn wrote:

> I would like to point out

> that I am not suggesting that civic responsibilities, such as voting,

> should be required by law - but simply spelled out as an ideal that

> all citizens should aspire too. Given the current state of citizen

> participation in Nova Roma, I would say that we are failing as a

> Democracy.

I don't agree with you. Requiring *by law* a citizen to vote. I hope to
live in a democracy (my macronation is Switzerland) but we don't have an
obligation to vote. Actually, at every vote (4 times per year) we have
*always* around 50% abstinents. And I wouldn't consider Switzerland to
be failing as a democracy.

Vale
--
Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus
Civis Provinciae Germaniae, Regionis Superioris
Friburgii Helvetiorum


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] A question regarding Gens
From:	"G. Noviodunus Ferriculus" <Gaius.Noviodunus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 11:25:02 +0200

Salve Claudia Aucelia Calpurnia

> so i'm just stuck here

> belonging to a gens I am the only active member of and

> a paterfamilias who has pretty much dropped off the

> face of the earth. I'd like some advice on what I

> should do from here.

I don't know if Novaroma knows the word "adoption"? Couldn't you be adopted

by a new paterfamilias? That would be the easiest, I guess. However I
don't know if your current paterfamilias has to agree :-(

vale!

--
Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus
Civis Provinciae Germaniae, Regionis Superioris
Friburgii Helvetiorum


Subject:	[novaroma] Romae Laudatio
From:	"Laietanus" <enric.ferrer@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 13:32:24 +0200

POPULUS NOVAROMANUS HISPANIAE NOVAROMANI S.P.D.

I.O.M.S
ROMANI HISPANIAE SVMVS
ROMA IN VITA NOSTRA ET IN IVRE NOSTRE PERVIVET
ROMA IN CIVITATIS ET IN VIIS NOSTRIS PERVIVET
IN LARIBVS NOSTRIBVS,
IN LINGUIS NOSTRIS,
IN OCULIS NOSTRIS ET
IN CORDIBVS NOTRIS
ROMA NOBISCVM HODIE VIVET
ROMA AETERNA MATER ET LVX SEMPER ERIT

A.D. XI KALENDAS MAIAE - MMDCCLIV A.V.C.
FESTIVITAS PALILIARUM

CIVES HISPANIAE - Gnaeus Salix Astur, Matritis / Marcus Salix Davianus, Barcino / Gnaeus Salix Galaicus, Brigantium / Lucius Minicius Laietanus, Barcino / Spurius Aelius Baeticus Malacitanus, Matritis / Marcus Minicius Rufus, Matritis / Caius Valerius Hispanicus Sparticus / Marcus Salix Vigilius, Canarias

�------------------------------------------�
Consagrado a Iuppiter Optimo Maximo

Somos romanos de Hispania
Roma pervive en nuestra vida y en nuestra ley
Roma pervive en nuestras ciudades y en nuestros caminos
En nuestras casas,
en nuestras lenguas,
en nuestros ojos y
en nuestros corazones
Roma vive hoy con nosotros.
Roma ser� siempre madre y luz eterna.

21 de Abril de 2001.
Festividad de las Palilia

CIVES HISPANIAE - Gnaeus Salix Astur, Matritis / Marcus Salix Davianus, Barcino / Gnaeus Salix Galaicus, Brigantium / Lucius Minicius Laietanus, Barcino / Spurius Aelius Baeticus Malacitanus, Matritis / Marcus Minicius Rufus, Matritis / Caius Valerius Hispanicus Sparticus / Marcus Salix Vigilius, Canarias
�------------------------------------------�

Dedicated to Iuppiter Optimus Maximus

We are Romans from Hispania
Rome still lives in our lifes and in our laws
Rome still lives in our cities and in our roads
in our homes,
in our tongues,
in our eyes and
in our hearts.
Rome lives on through us.
Rome will always be mother and eternal light.

April the 21st, 2001.
Festivity of the Parilia.

CIVES HISPANIAE - Gnaeus Salix Astur, Matritis / Marcus Salix Davianus, Barcino / Gnaeus Salix Galaicus, Brigantium / Lucius Minicius Laietanus, Barcino / Spurius Aelius Baeticus Malacitanus, Matritis / Marcus Minicius Rufus, Matritis / Caius Valerius Hispanicus Sparticus / Marcus Salix Vigilius, Canarias
�------------------------------------------�

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gods of the Underworld
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 08:17:31 +0200

Salve, whoever you may be (didn't quite catch a name),

I am a Belgian, as are my fratres Tiberius, Lucius, Quintus, Marcus and
Titus. From which part of Belgium are you?

Vale bene,
Sextus Apollonius Draco


Subject:	Fw: [novaroma] ATTN: Winners of the Cerealia / Romae Conditio Festival contest
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 14:03:13 +0200

>
> Salve Praetor Maxime,
>
> I'm going to compile them in a document, and I hope our retiarus Oppius
> Flaccus shall make them available via the Sodalitas Musarum website. For
> now they are only available in the archives of both the main list and the
> SodMus list.
>
> Vale bene!
> Draco
>
>
>
> Planet Internet Webmail -- http://www.pimail.be
>


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Re Taxes
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 12:15:48 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, mansker@m... wrote:
> Salve -
>
> Just a few words on the tax issue.
>
> I am a new member (a little over a month), and have enjoyed my
> membership so far. I was asked to be a rogator for a collegium, and
> I agreed. I have donated through paypal, and have talked with my
> Pater regarding becoming more active.
>
> I feel that if you want to see a society survive, you must become
> active in that society. I know that not everyone can bear the cost
> of taxes, but what if you held an office that would help to lessen
> the cost of running NovaRoma?
>
> As an example: I am an accredited expert in Excel. I run a company
> that does marketing. I have vast experience in a number of things,
> some of which might be valuable to NovaRoma, some of which might not
> be, but I would be willing to use my talents and my efforts to help
> further our cause.
>
> I would also be able to pay taxes and do not see this as an issue,
> but I would also be happy to be of service rather than pay taxes if I
> didn't have the money. (I hereby state that I would be happy to be of
> service anyway, if anyone needs me for anything).
>
> I think that if people were given an option to either pay taxes or
> due service that would benefit NovaRoma, it would allow those who
> didn't have the money to still become a citizen, become active, and
> help NovaRoma at the same time.
>
> I would be interested in hearing what others think of this idea.
>
> Bene,
>
> Gaia Flacca Severa
>

Salve Gaia Flacca,

I can accept the idea that Citizens be allowed to make in kind
donations of services in lieu of taxes, provided that it is clearly
understood that this isn't some kind of right.

I'm NOT intrested in seeing a bunch of posts complaining that Nova
Roma is violating the "rights" of some citizens because she won't
create unneeded make work jobs for every citizen who can't/won't pay
thier taxes.

If there is a job that needs to be done, and a citizen who has the
skills to perform that job fine.

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus


Subject:	[novaroma] CANADA OCCIDENTALIS EDICTA NUMBER THIRTEEN
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 07:53:15 -0500

CANADA OCCIDENTALIS EDICTA NUMBER THIRTEEN

APPOINTMENT OF SENIOR LEGATE

21 Apr 2001

Salve All

I, Quintus Sertorius, Propraetor Canada Occidentalis, issue the following Edicta to announce the appointment of Remesa Debrascus as Senoir Legate for Canada Occidentalis. In the absence of the Propraetor, the Senoir Legate will act as Governor.

Vale

Quintus Sertorius
Tribune
Propraetor
Canada Occidentalis

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Gods of the Underworld
From:	"mike rasschaert" <hadescallias@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 12:21:51 +0200

i worship both the Gods and Goddesses of the Underworld, but my list of these deities isn't complete. can anyone help me with that. i would much appreciated it.
----- Original Message -----
From: SkaldElf@--------
To: novaroma@--------
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 6:08 AM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Gods of the Underworld

Ave,

I worship mainly the goddesses of the underworld i.e. Prosperina, Trivia,
Nyx, Invidia, and so forth. Not to worry you are not alone in this. If I'm
not mistaken Sextus Apollonius Draco is indeed a citizen of Belgium. Hope
this helps.

Vale,
Aeternia


Subject:	[novaroma] CANADA OCCIDENTALIS EDICTA NUMBER FOURTEEN
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 08:28:18 -0500

CANADA OCCIDENTALIS EDICTA NUMBER FOURTEEN

EXPANSION OF PROVINCIA ADMINISTRATION

21 Apr 2001

Salve All

I, Quintus Sertorius, Propraetor Canada Occidentalis, issue the following Edicta to announce the expansion of the Provincia Administration. These changes are adopted from those created by the Propraetor of the Provincia of Thule.

1. The Propraetor Canada Occidentalis may appoint one Senior Legatus, this could be an
separate position or held together with one of the Legatus Regionis
positions. The Senior Legatus shall function as Deputy to the Propraetor
when so ordered by the Propraetor Canada Occidentalis. The Propraetor shall publish an
edictum for each occasion that the Senior Legatus shall function as his
Deputy. The Edictum shall include directives for the assignment including
time for the assignment and the actual task. The Senior Legati can also be
assigned special missions, aside the assignments as Deputy, by the
Propraetor Canada Occidentalis. These missions and the duration of them will be
specified in Propraetorian edicts. The appointment and dismissal of the
Senior Legatus shall follow the same rules as for the other Legati.

2. The Propraetor may appoint a "Consilium Provinciale Canada Occidentalis" (The
Provincial Council of Canada Occidentalis) to advice the Propraetor, who shall act as
Chairman and call the Consilium to order. The Consilium shall consider only
those issues put forward to it by the Propraetor Canada Occidentalis; the Consilium can
not in itself put issues on the agenda, although its members can make such
suggestion personally to the Propraetor. The Propraetor shall act as
Secterarius for the Consilium and keep the minutes. The Propraetor can, as
he wishes, decide to not follow the counsel of the Consilium Provinciale
Canada Occidentalis. Members will be all Legates and Prolegates, including the Senior
Legatus. The Propraetor will also be able to call other cives to sit in the
Consilium, these members will be called "Consiliarius" or "Consiliaria".
Consiliarii can be appointed or dismissed at any time by the Propraetor
Canada Occidentalis. The Consiliarii normally sits for the same period as the Legati.
The Consilium will not function to exclude cives, but to unite the
provincial leadership so that it in its turn can function as a center for
all communication, work and contact within the Provincia. Procedures for the Consilium will be decided by the Propraetor.

3. The Propraetor Canada Occidentalis shall appoint a "Praeco Aranei Canada Occidentalis" (Provincial
webmaster, Crier of the Web of Canada Occidentalis) for the homepage for Provincia Canada Occidentalis and a "Praefectus Sermonis Canada Occidentalis" (Provincial List Moderator, Head of
Speech of Canada Occidentalis) to arrange for the administration of the Canada Occidentalis e-mail
list. The Praeco Aranei Canada Occidentalis and the Praefectus Sermonis Canada Occidentalis can be
appointed or dismissed at any time by the Propraetor Canada Occidentalis.

4. The leadership (the Consilium) of the Provincia, shall work together to
make Nova Roma and Canada Occidenatlsi strong in all possible ways: Roman Religio,
personal meetings, seminars/conferences, financial work, other work within
Nova Roma and so on. The Propraetor shall, as the Provincia get enough
enthusiastic cives, appoint "Procuratores" for each of these activities.
For now the Propraetor will act as Procurator Aerarium (Provincial
Quaestor), until such time as this position can be filled by a willing
civis. The Propraetor shall also appoint one position to deal with external
contacts (external contacts with universities, museums, schools, mass media
and other interesting organizations), who will be called "Legatus ad Res
Externas" (Legate for External Affairs), who also will have to keep in
touch with the Sodalitas Egressus. All Procuratores and the Legatus ad Res
Externas can be appointed or dismissed at any time by the Propraetor Canada Occidentalis.

5. The Propraetor Canada Occidentalis shall appoint a Legatus Militum (Military Tribune)
who is responsible for all contacts with re-enactment Legions and showing
Roman military uniforms and weapon on Roman days and the like. The Legatus
Militia also is responsible for all military studies of the Roman army and
navy, within Provincia Canada Occidentalis. The Propraetor Canada Occidentalis may appoint a young man
or woman to the position of Contubernalis Provincia (Provinsial Adjutant),
the personal military assistant to the Propraetor. The Legatus Militum and
the Contubernalis Provincia can be appointed or dismissed at any time by
the Propraetor Canada Occidentalis.

Vale

Quintus Sertorius
Tribune
Propraetor
Canada Occidentalis

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	[novaroma] CANADA OCCIDENTALIS EDICTA NUMBER FIFTEEN
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 08:47:11 -0500

CANADA OCCIDENTALIS EDICTA NUMBER FIFTEEN

APPOINTMENT OF PRAECO ARANEI CANADA OCCIDENTALIS

21 Apr 2001

Salve All

I, Quintus Sertorius, Propraetor Canada Occidentalis, issue the following Edicta to announce the appointment of Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa to the position of "Praeco Aranei Canada Occidentalis" (Provincial Webmaster, Crier of the Web of Canada Occidentalis).

Vale

Quintus Sertorius
Tribune
Propraetor
Canada Occidentalis

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] ATTN: Winners of the Cerealia / Romae Conditio Festival contest
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 07:05:50 -0700

Salvete Draco et Q. Fabi;

These entries will indeed be available
via the Musarum website. The updates
are admittedly behind, but once my
current work project cycle catches
in mid-May or so, then will be going
back to try and include both the
festival submissions and the previous
ones.

Draco -if you do end up compiling a
master document, please cc' me on
it as well and at least as a temporary
measure, I can include the work on
our site as one compendium document and
break it out later by Collegium.

Bene valete,
Oppius

-----Original Message-----
From: S. Apollonius Draco [mailto:hendrik.meuleman@--------]
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 5:03 AM
To: Nova Roma
Subject: Fw: [novaroma] ATTN: Winners of the Cerealia / Romae Conditio Festival
contest

>
> Salve Praetor Maxime,
>
> I'm going to compile them in a document, and I hope our retiarus Oppius
> Flaccus shall make them available via the Sodalitas Musarum website. For
> now they are only available in the archives of both the main list and the
> SodMus list.
>
<snipped>

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Festival
From:	"Marcos Boehme" <m_arminius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 11:24:04 -0300

Salvete...

Oh, by Minerva, im horrified to see a private post in the main list...
I apologize to Draco and the Musarum...

Marcus Arminius Maior

--

On Fri, 20 Apr 2001 14:50:15
Marcos Boehme wrote:
>Salve, Coryphaeus Musarum
>
>Nothing new [snip]

Get 250 color business cards for FREE!
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Subject:	[novaroma] Taxes and the Religio
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 07:57:38 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete Quirites,

Nova Roma isn't limited to just it's secular
government. The Religio is also in need of funds, so
I'm introducing a rather thorny topic.

Should part of our tax money be used for the Religio?
This is an important part of Nova Roma's mission. I
quote from Nova Roma's main page "Dedicated to the
restoration of Classical Roman religion, culture, and
virtues". I for one would like to see part of our
taxes used to fulfill the first of these goals.

However I also realize that many of our Citizens do
not beleave in the ancient Gods, and that some of our
citizens would feel that being forced to contribute to
the Religio would be an affront to thier faith.

This is a basic question that needs to be settled
BEFORE taxes are imposed. Should any part of our taxes
be used to support the Religio?

As I said I would like to see part of our taxes used
for this important goal, However I do NOT have the
right to force others to contribute to what I consider
a worthy cause, so I will have to come out as being
AGAINST any use of the funds collected in a general
tax for the support of the Religio.

Instead I offer this idea. That as part of the Tax
plan the Religio be allowed to add a voluntary Surtax
of say 25% of the General tax. This would ammount to
US $3.00 if the US $12.00 figure is adopted, and that
NO penalty be imposed on any citizen who didn't wish
pay the additional tax for the support of the Religio.

This plan would allow Nova Roma to collect the funds
that the Religio needs to fulfill it's mission without
violating the rights of our citizens to have thier own
private faith.

Does anyone else have any comments on this subject?

Vale,
L. Sicinius Drusus

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Inclusion vs. Exclusion
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 08:07:56 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes!

> So yes, if that means that we reward those that take an active
> role,
> and exclude those that merely lend their name and nothing more...I
> think that
> is something we must truly consider.
>
> Respectfully,
> Gaius Cornelius Nycticorax
>

I agree completely with rewarding those that show interest, but I do
not agree with punishing those who do not. That is, more or less, on of
the most important points of my previous post.

=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Civis romanus.

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] 21st of April 753BC...
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiberius=20Apollonius=20Cicatrix?= <consulromanus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 16:08:55 +0100 (BST)

Salvete,

I hope people don't forget today's date: it's the 21st
of April, the legendary date of the founding of Rome.
I know this date means nothing in history because
there was never such thing as a founding of Rome on
this perticular day, but I thought it nice to be
mentioned.

So, on the 21st of April 753BC (i.e. 2754 years ago)
the legendary city of Rome was founded and the base
was settled for the future Imperium Romanum. Indeed a
glorious day for all of us Nova Romans, I think.

Any comments?

Valete

=====
Tiberius Apollonius Cicatrix
civis Novae Romae
____________________________

"De te autem, Catilina, cum quiescunt, probant; cum patiuntur, decernunt; cum tacent, clamant." (M. Tullius Cicero: In Catilinam I, 20)

____________________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] My support to Taxes
From:	Gnaeus Salix Astur <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 08:58:33 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete omnes!

I have been reading the responses to my "Inclusion vs. Exclusion" post
and it seems that I have been misinterpreted. This has probably been my
fault.

I want to say that I am totally in favour of taxation and that I intend
to pay an annual tax (at least, as long as it goes around 12-25$; I
wouldn't be able to afford much more!).

What I am against is that citizens should be REQUIRED to pay taxes in
order to be citizens. This would reduce Nova Roma's growth and could
deny Nova Roma the help from many prospective citizens. I would prefer
that they were "downgraded" somehow, or that taxpayers were otherwise
encouraged without "punishing" non-taxpayers.

I would also like that all citizens were highly involved in Nova Roma,
but let's be serious. If someone is not active, the only expense he is
making Nova Roma do is the time of the Censores when they submit their
application and maybe priting paper and ink (�Have you considered
making backup copies on floppy disks? It would be easier, faster and
cheaper, I think). All the other features of Nova Roma would cost more
or less the same if we had 100 citizens or 1,000.

Once again, it all resumes to my previous adagio: reward active
citizens instead of punishing inactive citizens.

=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Civis romanus.

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] A new Sodality...? (long)
From:	Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs <iasonvs_serenvs@-------->
Date:	Sat, 21 Apr 2001 08:58:41 -0700 (PDT)

--- UlysseJace@-------- wrote:
> From: UlysseJace@--------
> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:22:26 EDT
> Subject: A new Sodality...?
> To: iasonvs_serenvs@--------
>
>
> Ave Quiritibus,
>
> I hope the each of you have had an excellent week
> thusfar. I would like to
> take this time to thank Ser Minucius Hadrianus for
> an excellent and rewarding
> conversation at the Nova Britannia chat site last
> evening. I invite others
> to follow his lead in bringing us closer to mutual
> support and understanding.
>
> If it pleases the patience of the assembled
> citizens, I would like to offer a
> proposal for the creation of a new sodality.
>
> In reviewing the accumulated posts of the past few
> weeks a rare and
> unexpected unity of purpose became apparent in the
> larger patterns of our
> conversations. I say unexpected, of course, because
> the Gods rarely have the
> patience or the humor to allow me to make a mess of
> their providential
> epiphanies.
>
> The "novaroma" list seems to function as a central
> plaza. We come to it,
> read the messages gummed to the assorted pillars,
> reply, and go on about our
> business. The larger issues come into play and
> discussion, but are often
> quickly replaced by new additions to our collective
> exchanges. Unlike a
> forum, wherein the gathered would debate the public
> issues to some extent and
> depth, the main list serves more as an introductory
> meetingplace. As such,
> it works well.
>
> I wonder if some of the issues debated might receive
> greater attention and
> deliberation if a more structured sodality was
> consecrated to that end?
>
> I invite latinists of greater maturity and
> experience then I to suggest a
> name under which this sodality will be consecrated.
>
> An illustration: for several days now we have been
> engaged in a refreshingly
> civilized discussion of what it means to be a
> Novaroman. Using this new
> sodality as a forum, the memberships could engage in
> research, debate,
> presentation, and even written "oratory" on this
> issue alone for an allotted
> period of time, draft a report for the appropriate
> magistates, refer
> applicable issues to other sodalities, and prepare a
> body of formal opinions
> for public review. As such, this new sodality would
> serve as both a
> philosophical college (later to be duplicated on
> terra firma?!) and a
> research body for the Senate and People.
>
> To continue the previous example: Once the new
> sodality, with some sort of
> rotating board of governors or prefects, had
> established a schedule, it could
> assign committees research, debate, and present the
> many aspects of modern
> romanitas. These results might just be useful to
> the work of the Egressus
> sodality, the various pater/materfamilias, and res