Forum Romanum


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Digest No 1349 Duplicated citizenship
From:	Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date:	Thu, 19 Apr 2001 10:14:57 +1000

Salve

I envisaged the same problem with this in that it could easily be opened up
to manipulation and fraud - we had a similar thing happen in Australia in
that our local political party branches "branch stacking" where local party
members would be mysteriously enrolled so as they would elect certain
members, without question. Some were even enrolled eventhough they resided
at the local cemetery.

What I suggested for Roma Nova was that it could get the Governors to ask
the citizens in its province to provide a copy of their macro nation birth
certificates to authenticate their identify and this could then be reported
to the censors etc. This "audit" which would clean up the roles.

I had no reply to my idea.

Vale

Marcus Sentius Claudius

-----Original Message-----
From: Lucius Equitius [mailto:vze23hw7@--------]
Sent: Thursday, 19 April 2001 9:59 Am
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Digest No 1349 Duplicated citizenship

Salvete, Quirites

We Censores are sent an automatic email of each application, so we can do
some checking of information provided. If someone is dishonest they can
circumvent what precautions that we do have, so I certainly agree we could
have more precautions.
I was against the 'online' form from the beginning. As one of the first
citizens, along with my colleague, I printed out and "snail mailed" a signed
application. I didn't find that particularly difficult, but it was argued
that it would be difficult for some prospective citizens from other
'nations'.
I favor a return to mail in applications, but that should not surprise
anyone as I favor a Dues/Tax/Registration Fee too.

Sure the online form is much easier, but then it may be *so* easy that it
means little to the majority who do complete it. This could be a reason for
the low number of voters in election, nonne? This could be a reason for the
non-responsiveness of Gens, nonne?

There is also the issue of privacy. The Censores have received requests for
'contact information' from many of the Praetores. Censor Sulla and I have
sent to various Praetores the Roman Name and the email address of record.
This is all that is to be given due to the Lex Cornelia de Privatis Rebus
and the statement on the application itself. "All of your personal
information will be kept completely confidential, and will be released only
as compelled by the civil law (exception: Paterfamiliae and Materfamiliae
will have their email addresses linked on the gentes page unless they
request otherwise)."
If a new Lex is passed giving authorization to provide the Phone No. and
street address of the citizens of a Provincia to the Praetor, I will be glad
to do that.

Also, you will note that I am replying to the digest form of this list. I
did so while trimming, snipping, deleting etc.all of the unnecessary
posting. I too grow weary of having to scroll through tremendous amounts of
redundant material and consider those posts that are not "edited for
brevity", inconsiderate.

Valete, Censor Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus
________________________________________________________________________

From: LSergAust@--------
Subject: Re: Duplicated citizenship

Salve Gn. Salix

As far as I can see, we have no safeguards at all in our application
process. We don't verify location, name, age, nationality, species, or
planet of origin.

That's what makes it so peculiar for us to demand proof of physical
gender. Of all the things to worry about making sure of......

We have had people expelled from Nova Roma and later re-admitted under an
different identity (and as a matter of fact, I'm getting a little
suspicious that may have happened again).

We need some safeguards, mea sententia.

Vale, L. Sergius Aust. Obst.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Rights of Citizens
From:	"L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
Date:	Wed, 18 Apr 2001 17:30:07 -0700 (PDT)

Salvete Quirites,

I found quite a few posts in my in box today
mentioning Rights, so I would like to comment on the
Rights of the Citizens.

Legally Nova Roma is a private organization, and as
such has the Right to set whatever terms she wishes
regarding who can be a member, and what kind of
conduct members can engage in as long as these terms
do not violate the laws of the State of New Hampshire
where Nova Roma is chartered nor the Laws of the
United States. This gives the private organization
called Nova Roma a great deal of leeway in setting the
rules of conduct that it's members must abide by.
These rules of conduct do NOT violate your rights
since no one is forced to be a member of this private
organization. There is NO legal right to belong to a
private organization, Nor is there any right to force
your ideas of how this private organization ought to
be run on the other members contrary to whatever
bylaws Nova Roma wishes to adopt.

This is fine if Nova Roma desires no more than just
being a private organization, To be no more than the
"Roman Club" or a fraternal lodge like some kind of
"Loyal Order of Romans". Quirites, aren't our
aspirations higher than this? Do we want to be the
Nova Roma club, or do we want to be the NATION of Nova
Roma?

Nations are judged by a far higher standard of conduct
than mere private clubs, and are expected to protect
the rights of all of thier citizens. Nations are
expected to have a just government that doesn't just
obey the wishes of the majority, but also to protect
the rights of the minority.

Here is a Quote from Ayn Rand that I consider to be
important on the subject of the rights of minorities.
"The smallest minority on earth is the individual.
Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be
defenders of minorities."

I fully agree with Ms Rand on this point, and I'll go
even farther. There is no such thing as group rights.
Any group has no more rights than it's individual
members have. The only thing a group has is the
strength of numbers.

A Just government doesn't derive it's powers from the
wishes of it's citizens. It is no more than a group of
citizens, and it's powers come from a grant by the
citizens acting in common. You can NOT cede a power to
the government that you do not pocess as an
individual. You do not gain new powers to cede to the
government by joining a group, you only become a
member of a mob, and the only power a mob has is brute
strength. No mob has the right to force it's will upon
others. There is no real difference between a mob that
meets by torchlight to violate the rights of others
and a mob that assembles by daylight and enters the
polls to violate the rights of others.

Quirites,
If you wish Nova Roma to be a nation with a just
government, then you should consider one thing before
you vote on any lex. Do I as an individual pocess the
power that I'm trying to cede to the government? If
you do not then when you vote for that lex you are
asking your government to violate the rights of
another human being.

Valete,
Lucius Sicinius Drusus

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Rights of Citizens
From:	Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs <iasonvs_serenvs@-------->
Date:	Wed, 18 Apr 2001 17:45:35 -0700 (PDT)

Honorable Drusus,

Bravo.

Iasonvs Serenvs

--- "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@--------> wrote:
> Salvete Quirites,
> >
> I fully agree with Ms Rand on this point, and I'll
> go
> even farther. There is no such thing as group
> rights.
> Any group has no more rights than it's individual
> members have. The only thing a group has is the
> strength of numbers.
>
> A Just government doesn't derive it's powers from
> the
> wishes of it's citizens. It is no more than a group
> of
> citizens, and it's powers come from a grant by the
> citizens acting in common. You can NOT cede a power
> to
> the government that you do not pocess as an
> individual. You do not gain new powers to cede to
> the
> government by joining a group, you only become a
> member of a mob, and the only power a mob has is
> brute
> strength. No mob has the right to force it's will
> upon
> others. There is no real difference between a mob
> that
> meets by torchlight to violate the rights of others
> and a mob that assembles by daylight and enters the
> polls to violate the rights of others.
>
> Quirites,
> If you wish Nova Roma to be a nation with a just
> government, then you should consider one thing
> before
> you vote on any lex. Do I as an individual pocess
> the
> power that I'm trying to cede to the government? If
> you do not then when you vote for that lex you are
> asking your government to violate the rights of
> another human being.
>
> Valete,
> Lucius Sicinius Drusus
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great
> prices
> http://auctions.yahoo.com/
>

=====
Iasonvs Serenvs Carolvs Peregrinvs
(this is a post for which I accept all responsibility)
"The cosmos works by harmony of tensions, like the lyre and the bow."
"Time is a game played beautifully by children."
Heraclitus of Ephesus
HeraclitusFreehold@--------

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Rights of Citizens
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <hucke@-------->
Date:	Wed, 18 Apr 2001 20:06:55 -0500 (CDT)

Salve Luci Sicini,

> A Just government doesn't derive it's powers from the
> wishes of it's citizens. It is no more than a group of
> citizens, and it's powers come from a grant by the
> citizens acting in common. You can NOT cede a power to
> the government that you do not pocess as an
> individual. You do not gain new powers to cede to the
> government by joining a group, you only become a
> member of a mob, and the only power a mob has is brute
> strength. No mob has the right to force it's will upon
> others. There is no real difference between a mob that
> meets by torchlight to violate the rights of others
> and a mob that assembles by daylight and enters the
> polls to violate the rights of others.

So, are you saying that because I myself have no right to imprison
a murderer, governments have no right to imprison a murderer?

Vale, Octavius.

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneum et Senator


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Rights of Citizens
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Apr 2001 01:15:23 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Marcus Octavius Germanicus <hucke@c...> wrote:
> Salve Luci Sicini,
>
> > A Just government doesn't derive it's powers from the
> > wishes of it's citizens. It is no more than a group of
> > citizens, and it's powers come from a grant by the
> > citizens acting in common. You can NOT cede a power to
> > the government that you do not pocess as an
> > individual. You do not gain new powers to cede to the
> > government by joining a group, you only become a
> > member of a mob, and the only power a mob has is brute
> > strength. No mob has the right to force it's will upon
> > others. There is no real difference between a mob that
> > meets by torchlight to violate the rights of others
> > and a mob that assembles by daylight and enters the
> > polls to violate the rights of others.
>
> So, are you saying that because I myself have no right to imprison
> a murderer, governments have no right to imprison a murderer?
>
> Vale, Octavius.
>
> --
> M. Octavius Germanicus
> Propraetor, Lacus Magni
> Curator Araneum et Senator

You have the right to use force to defend your self. You have the
right to cede this power of defense to the government, and it from
this cession that just governments derive thier police powers to
restrain those who would use force to violate the rights of others.
This grant is also where governments derive thier power to set up
armed forces for defending a nation from attack.

Drusus


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Digest No 1349 Duplicated citizenship
From:	mansker@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Apr 2001 01:19:33 -0000

Salve -

Although I agree with your idea in principal, it may be difficult
(and take quite a while) to provide a copy of your birth certificate
if you don't have one handy. (I know in Oregon, if you order your
birth certificate it can take 6 weeks and the cost is $20).

How about a copy of their driver's license or other ID? It would
include the present address (which the birth certificate wouldn't
include)as well as their name. This would solve two problems, such
as someone using a false address, and would prove identity.

I, for one, would not have a problem doing this. What do you think?

Gaia Flacca Severa

--- In novaroma@--------, Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@r...> wrote:
> Salve
>
> > What I suggested for Roma Nova was that it could get the
Governors to ask
> the citizens in its province to provide a copy of their macro
nation birth
> certificates to authenticate their identify and this could then be
reported
> to the censors etc. This "audit" which would clean up the roles.
>
> I had no reply to my idea.
>
> Vale
>
> Marcus Sentius Claudius
>


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Duplicated citizenship
From:	octavianuslucius@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Apr 2001 01:43:26 -0000

Salve Luci Maurici Procopioe

I agree with your idea of governors aiding the Censors. Since NR
becomes bigger and bigger, governors's aid to the censors would be
very helpful. I do not know how this could be implemented, but I am
sure that in the future the censors will need some help.

Lucius Pompeius Octavianus
Propraetor provinciae Argentinae

--- In novaroma@--------, "Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <procopious@h...>
wrote:
> Salvete Omnes,
> Could the Governors of Nova Roma be enlisted to aid the Censors and
ensure
> no duplicate citizenship's exist? If existing laws were changed or
their
> interpretation is altered the Governors of Nova Roma could be given
the
> necessary contact information and could then be responsible for
verifying
> the cives in their provinces.
> For those that don't know, the Governors of NR are working on this
very
> issue.
>
> Lucius Mauricius Procopious
> Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
> (This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> procopious@--------
> ICQ# 83516618
> *America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
> http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
> * The Gens Mauricia
> http://www.geocities.com/procopious
>
> "Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that
the
> affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing
the reason
> for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause
is easy
> to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every
mortal will
> decide for himself according to his taste."
> -Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died
c.560s]
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lucius Corn--------s Sulla F--------" <al--------us@-------->
> To: <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 1:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] Duplicated citizenship
>
>
> > Ave,
> >
> > Senator Lucius Sergius, that is easily rectified. Remember when
Nova
> > Roma started we had to snail mail our applications to the
Censors. I
> > know I did. Censor Equitius do you have any comments on this
issue?
> >
> > Respectfully,
> >
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
> > Censor of Nova Roma
> >
> > LSergAust@-------- wrote:
> > >
> > > Salve Gn. Salix
> > >
> > > As far as I can see, we have no safeguards at all in our
application
> > > process. We don't verify location, name, age, nationality,
species, or
> > > planet of origin.
> > >
> > > That's what makes it so peculiar for us to demand proof of
physical
> > > gender. Of all the things to worry about making sure of......
> > >
> > > We have had people expelled from Nova Roma and later re-
admitted under
> an
> > > different identity (and as a matter of fact, I'm getting a
little
> > > suspicious that may have happened again).
> > >
> > > We need some safeguards, mea sententia.
> > >
> > > Vale,
> > >
> > > L. Sergius Aust. Obst.
> > >
> > > On 4/18/01 2:10 PM Gnaeus Salix Astur (salixastur@--------) wrote:
> > >
> > > >Salvete, romani quirites.
> > > >
> > > >A terrible doubt has ocurred to me: do we have some system to
avoid
> > > >multiple citizenship applications? I mean, under our actual
application
> > > >system, I could apply several times for citizenship with
different
> > > >names and be accepted all the times.
> > > >
> > > >Am I wrong? Is there some identity control system that makes
this
> > > >impossible? I sincerely hope there is!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >=====
> > > >Bene Valete!
> > > >Gnaeus Salix Astur.
> > > >Civis romanus.
> > > >
> > >
> > > certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.
> > >
> > > (You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >


Subject:	[novaroma] Security Warning
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Apr 2001 01:49:46 -0000

Salvete,
I'm just passing on a warning I recived from one of the Security News
letters I subscribe to.

If you are using Netscape 4.76 or an earlier version there is a bug
that allows a website server to obtain information about your browser
history (sites you have visited) or the configuration of your browser.
If you want to protect your privacy you should disable javascript
(which will mess up how many sites are displayed) or upgrade to
version 4.77.

Drusus


Subject:	[novaroma] =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Situaci=F3n_en_Hispania?=
From:	LOBORUBRO@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Apr 2001 01:26:09 -0000

> >
> > PS Oye, como andan las cosas alla en Hispania? Soy de Puerto
Rico,
> > aunque radico en California...
>
> Pues aqu�, en Hispania, estamos intentando organizarnos. Si quieres
> contribuir, te invito a subscribirte a NRHispania@--------

Salve, Iberian frater,

What is being done in Spain?

Valete,

Lobo Rubro


Subject:	=?ISO-8859-1?Q?RE=3A_=5Bnovaroma=5D_Re=3A_Situaci=F3n_en_Hispa?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?nia?=
From:	Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date:	Thu, 19 Apr 2001 12:12:43 +1000

Salve

I think we send Pompey over with some Legions to sort them out .....

Marcus Sentius Claudius

-----Original Message-----
From: LOBORUBRO@-------- [mailto:LOBORUBRO@--------]
Sent: Thursday, 19 April 2001 11:26 Am
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Situaci�n en Hispania

> >
> > PS Oye, como andan las cosas alla en Hispania? Soy de Puerto
Rico,
> > aunque radico en California...
>
> Pues aqu�, en Hispania, estamos intentando organizarnos. Si quieres
> contribuir, te invito a subscribirte a NRHispania@--------

Salve, Iberian frater,

What is being done in Spain?

Valete,

Lobo Rubro

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

*
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This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
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This footnote also confirms that this email message has been scanned
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Subject:	[novaroma] Nova Roman Citizenship -Time to get Real.
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 18 Apr 2001 19:29:23 -0700

Salvete Quiritibus!

I've been watching this discussion with keen interest;
as many of these points are key even though they have
been brought up in one form or another in previous debates.

In short, I could not agree more that we need to strengthen
our measures and determinants of citizenship. To synthesize
my views with some other current posts on the matter:

1-An absolute and resounding YES to snail mail applications.
These applications should be at least as thorough as
the current ones and preferably more so. Anyone, anywhere
can fill out a generic html form and post it somewhere
with it meaning next to nothing at all. The act of writing
something, including funds and a stamp is a much more
tangible act than posting text in a web form.

2-Snail mail applications should be accompanied by a facsimile
of an applicant's macronational ID of record. Depending
on the country, this could be a driver's license (I would
think the most common,) state/federal/local/provincial
ID card, or the good old standby -a passport. While
birth certificates are a nice secondary form of ID when
available, I agree that it can be a pain in the podex
to get one of these in a timely manner. -Have been
through this exercise for myself, son and wife.
*Inconvenient* is a polite term for what we dealt with :-)

3-Applications should be accompanied by an application
fee. This could be done either via enclosed personal
check, traveler's check -or on the web, via PayPal.
If done via PayPal, the application is held in
'escrow' until funds have been verified.

4-In *addition* to the steps above, when an application
arrives for processing -either the mater/paterfamilias
of the gens being petitioned and/or the Provincial
Governor/Legatus performs some physical form of
verification. Preferably in the form of a face to
face meeting.

5-As a slightly different alternative, membership
drives at public events could be utilized for
instant 'pre-approval,' by performing all the
physical verifications and money collection.

I fully agree that provincial officials are key to making
such a system work. Of course, it also puts more
responsibility on the pater/materfamilias to assist
in the verification process. This will require
some fundamental changes in our infrastructure and
likely at least one or more leges to be promulgated
to allow the appropriate officials the appropriate
powers to conduct business.

Furthermore, the approval process of provincial
officials and pater/materfamilias will need to be
more stringent to ensure that they have the ability
to perform the requirements of verification in their
particular situation.

While the organization was in the midst of applying
for NPC status, I could see how it made perfect sense
to play the raw numbers game and get as many names as
possible tied to the association. Now that this status
has been granted, it is time to make the
citizenship count for something and to ensure that
we are all in effect who we say we are.

Furthermore, the mater/paterfamilias, provincial
officials and Censores could conduct an actual census
to see just who really exists, who is where and whether
or not they're actually members of the organization
or not. It seems apparent that we have at least several
hundred in our midst who either no longer exist, may
have never been real at all and/or have no interest
in participation or involvement.

A case in point: a recent provincial 'census' message
sent to the civis of my Regio returned *2* responses.
At least one e-mail has bounced and the other six or
so names I fully expect not to hear from at all.

Before the flames fly, let me tell you as a civis
that has actually contributed *real* time and perhaps
even more importantly *real money* to our organization,
I have little sympathy for those that do not value
their citizenship. If we're really going to grow
and become a physical *nation,* then we need to get
real; make it count and get to know one another
as people and not keyboard operators.

Bene valete,
Oppius Flaccus Severus, Legatus America Boreoccidentalis Major


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Duplicated citizenship
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Jerry=20Anguston?= <gaiussentius@-------->
Date:	Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:49:58 +1000 (EST)

Ave omnes,

I have to say that this is a pretty strange idea, and
open to all sorts of problems in itself. An example of
this is my brother, who pit-crews around the world,
and could be away for periods as long as two years. By
your reckoning, he would not be present to prove his
identity or etc., so therefore what is to stop his
being struck off as a spurious citizen while he is
absent? Currently, he is in Mongolia, and will not be
back for sometime. He spends around 15 days of every
year at home (if that), and the rest of the time is
going around the world. That makes him fairly
uncontactable, so I would say that in his case,
failing the fact that we have no proof of his identity
here at home as he carries it with him everywhere,
that he could just as easily return home and find
himself no longer a citizen.

Valete bene omnes,

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura

--- Lucius Mauricius Procopious <procopious@-------->
wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
Salvete Omnes, 
Could the Governors of Nova Roma be enlisted to aid
the Censors and ensure 
no duplicate citizenship's exist? If existing laws
were changed or their 
interpretation is altered the Governors of Nova Roma
could be given the 
necessary contact information and could then be
responsible for verifying 
the cives in their provinces. 
For those that don't know, the Governors of NR are
working on this very 
issue. 
 
Lucius Mauricius Procopious 
Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis 
(This is an unofficial post for which I assume full
responsibility) 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
procopious@-------- 
ICQ# 83516618 
*America Boreoccidentalis Mail List 
<a
href="http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves">http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves</a> 
* The Gens Mauricia 
<a
href="http://www.geocities.com/procopious">http://www.geocities.com/procopious</a> 
 
"Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by
the hand of God that the 
affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate,
not knowing the reason 
for what things they see occur; and what seems to be
without cause is easy 
to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a
matter every mortal will 
decide for himself according to his taste." 
-Procopius of Caesarea (in
Palestine) [born c.490/507- died c.560s] 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix"
<alexious@--------> 
To: <novaroma@--------> 
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 1:36 PM 
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Duplicated citizenship 
 
 
> Ave, 
> 
> Senator Lucius Sergius, that is easily
rectified. Remember when Nova 
> Roma started we had to snail mail our
applications to the Censors. I 
> know I did. Censor Equitius do you have any
comments on this issue? 
> 
> Respectfully, 
> 
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix 
> Censor of Nova Roma 
> 
> LSergAust@-------- wrote: 
> > 
> > Salve Gn. Salix 
> > 
> > As far as I can see, we have no
safeguards at all in our application 
> > process. We don't verify location, name,
age, nationality, species, or 
> > planet of origin. 
> > 
> > That's what makes it so peculiar for us to
demand proof of physical 
> > gender. Of all the things to worry about
making sure of...... 
> > 
> > We have had people expelled from Nova Roma
and later re-admitted under 
an 
> > different identity (and as a matter of fact,
I'm getting a little 
> > suspicious that may have happened
again). 
> > 
> > We need some safeguards, mea sententia. 
> > 
> > Vale, 
> > 
> > L. Sergius Aust. Obst. 
> > 
> > On 4/18/01 2:10 PM Gnaeus Salix Astur
(salixastur@--------) wrote: 
> > 
> > >Salvete, romani quirites. 
> > > 
> > >A terrible doubt has ocurred to me: do
we have some system to avoid 
> > >multiple citizenship applications? I
mean, under our actual application 
> > >system, I could apply several times for
citizenship with different 
> > >names and be accepted all the times. 
> > > 
> > >Am I wrong? Is there some identity
control system that makes this 
> > >impossible? I sincerely hope there
is! 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >===== 
> > >Bene Valete! 
> > >Gnaeus Salix Astur. 
> > >Civis romanus. 
> > > 
> > 
> > certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam
adesse. 
> > 
> > (You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not
in Kansas anymore.) 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
<a
href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/</a> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to <a
href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/</a> 
> 
> 
 
</tt>

 



<table border=0 cellspacing=0 cellpadding=2>
<tr bgcolor=#FFFFCC>
<td align=center><font size="-1"


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Nova Roman Citizenship -Time to get Real.
From:	Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date:	Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:51:53 +1000

Salve Oppius Flaccus Severus

Extremely good reasoning and excellent recommendations - presumably someone
from the Senate will take notice and start to make some (if not all) of your
recommendations happen.

Vale

Marcus Sentius Claudius

-----Original Message-----
From: Oppius Flaccus Severus [mailto:oppiusflaccus@--------]
Sent: Thursday, 19 April 2001 12:29 Pm
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Nova Roman Citizenship -Time to get Real.

Salvete Quiritibus!

I've been watching this discussion with keen interest;
as many of these points are key even though they have
been brought up in one form or another in previous debates.

In short, I could not agree more that we need to strengthen
our measures and determinants of citizenship. To synthesize
my views with some other current posts on the matter:

1-An absolute and resounding YES to snail mail applications.
These applications should be at least as thorough as
the current ones and preferably more so. Anyone, anywhere
can fill out a generic html form and post it somewhere
with it meaning next to nothing at all. The act of writing
something, including funds and a stamp is a much more
tangible act than posting text in a web form.

2-Snail mail applications should be accompanied by a facsimile
of an applicant's macronational ID of record. Depending
on the country, this could be a driver's license (I would
think the most common,) state/federal/local/provincial
ID card, or the good old standby -a passport. While
birth certificates are a nice secondary form of ID when
available, I agree that it can be a pain in the podex
to get one of these in a timely manner. -Have been
through this exercise for myself, son and wife.
*Inconvenient* is a polite term for what we dealt with :-)

3-Applications should be accompanied by an application
fee. This could be done either via enclosed personal
check, traveler's check -or on the web, via PayPal.
If done via PayPal, the application is held in
'escrow' until funds have been verified.

4-In *addition* to the steps above, when an application
arrives for processing -either the mater/paterfamilias
of the gens being petitioned and/or the Provincial
Governor/Legatus performs some physical form of
verification. Preferably in the form of a face to
face meeting.

5-As a slightly different alternative, membership
drives at public events could be utilized for
instant 'pre-approval,' by performing all the
physical verifications and money collection.

I fully agree that provincial officials are key to making
such a system work. Of course, it also puts more
responsibility on the pater/materfamilias to assist
in the verification process. This will require
some fundamental changes in our infrastructure and
likely at least one or more leges to be promulgated
to allow the appropriate officials the appropriate
powers to conduct business.

Furthermore, the approval process of provincial
officials and pater/materfamilias will need to be
more stringent to ensure that they have the ability
to perform the requirements of verification in their
particular situation.

While the organization was in the midst of applying
for NPC status, I could see how it made perfect sense
to play the raw numbers game and get as many names as
possible tied to the association. Now that this status
has been granted, it is time to make the
citizenship count for something and to ensure that
we are all in effect who we say we are.

Furthermore, the mater/paterfamilias, provincial
officials and Censores could conduct an actual census
to see just who really exists, who is where and whether
or not they're actually members of the organization
or not. It seems apparent that we have at least several
hundred in our midst who either no longer exist, may
have never been real at all and/or have no interest
in participation or involvement.

A case in point: a recent provincial 'census' message
sent to the civis of my Regio returned *2* responses.
At least one e-mail has bounced and the other six or
so names I fully expect not to hear from at all.

Before the flames fly, let me tell you as a civis
that has actually contributed *real* time and perhaps
even more importantly *real money* to our organization,
I have little sympathy for those that do not value
their citizenship. If we're really going to grow
and become a physical *nation,* then we need to get
real; make it count and get to know one another
as people and not keyboard operators.

Bene valete,
Oppius Flaccus Severus, Legatus America Boreoccidentalis Major

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the Network Administrator on +61 3 9667 6699.

This footnote also confirms that this email message has been scanned
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**********************************************************************


Subject:	[novaroma] Call to Census in Oklahoma
From:	britil@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Apr 2001 04:23:13 -0000

Salvete,

To all members of NovaRoma in Oklahoma. This is a call of
Census. By order of our Governor, Pontius Sejanus Marius.

Please send your email with name and e-mail address to Legatus Marcus
Flavius so an official record my be compiled and sent to the
Governor's office.
This is very important. This allows us to know each cive in our
province. This will allow us to plan meetings and chats, which I feel
is important to start as soon as we can. So we can feel a common bond
of closeness and not feel so many miles for Roma. I have met some of
the members in Oklahoma over the past few days through e-mail since
becoming Legatus, but not near as many as I would like, so to remedy
this I ask for all Oklahoma Roman citizens to please answer this call
of census as soon as possible. So, lets band together and grow in
strength for the betterment of Roma.

Avete,

Marcus Flavius
Legatus of Oklahoma


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Nova Roman Citizenship -Time to get Real.
From:	Patrick Ferguson <pvitruviusiulianus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 18 Apr 2001 21:24:25 -0700 (PDT)

Avete omnes!

I have no problems with most of what has been said so
far, but not *all* of what has been said so far. When
I applied for citizenship to Nova Roma I desired to
form my own gens. So I obviouly could'nt meet with
its pater/materfalmilias. Also, my provincial
governor lives in another city in another state. If
the burden of visiting the governor were on my
shoulders and were a requirement, it would be
impossible for me to fufill. If it were on the
shoulders of the governor, there would bea lot of
traveling and travel expenses for the governor.

Valete optime :->!

Patricius Vitruvius Iulianus,

Civis Novae Romae.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Rights of Citizens
From:	"Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <procopious@-------->
Date:	Wed, 18 Apr 2001 22:33:04 -0700

Salvete Omnes,
A well thought and informative post from Lucius Sicinius Drusus! Great
advice, vote carefully, protect each others rights.
I won't argue whether or not a group should or does have rights. I'll agree
to disagree there. I'd feel more comfortable discussing this if I had a
better idea what you see as a "right". Are they only those things I have the
ability to let government do for me? It's not a right if I can't cede my
power to do so to the government?

As for an individual constituting a minority, are you suggesting that any
government that does not have 100% consensual support for it's laws is not
just? Otherwise isn't that law actually the mob violating the rights of the,
possibly, one dissenting individual.
It almost sounds like you advocate anarchy. Is this so? No government is
good government?

I'll end with a quote myself. Mine is from Epictetus, an ancient
philosopher, regarding those things we have power over, as they seem to be
key to this discussion of rights.

"For, if the greatest hurt be a deprivation of the most valuable things,
and the most valuable thing to everyone be rectitue of will; when anyone is
deprived of this, why, after all, are you angry? You ought not to be
affected, O man! contrary to nature, by the evil deeds of another. Pity him
rather. Yield not to hatred and anger, nor say, as many do: "What! shall
these execrable and odious wretches dare to act thus?" Whence have you so
suddenly learned wisdom?
Why are we thus enraged? Because we make idols of those things which such
people take from us. Make not an idol of your clothes, and you will not be
enraged with the thief. Make not an idol of a woman's beauty, and you will
not be enraged with an adulterer. Know that thief and adulterer cannot reach
the things that are properly your own; but those only which belong to
others, and are not within your power."

Lucius Mauricius Procopious
Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
(This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
procopious@--------
ICQ# 83516618
*America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
* The Gens Mauricia
http://www.geocities.com/procopious

"Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that the
affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the reason
for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause is easy
to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal will
decide for himself according to his taste."
-Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died c.560s]
----- Original Message -----
From: "L. Sicinius Drusus" <lsicinius@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 5:30 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Rights of Citizens

> Salvete Quirites,
>
> I found quite a few posts in my in box today
> mentioning Rights, so I would like to comment on the
> Rights of the Citizens.
>
> Legally Nova Roma is a private organization, and as
> such has the Right to set whatever terms she wishes
> regarding who can be a member, and what kind of
> conduct members can engage in as long as these terms
> do not violate the laws of the State of New Hampshire
> where Nova Roma is chartered nor the Laws of the
> United States. This gives the private organization
> called Nova Roma a great deal of leeway in setting the
> rules of conduct that it's members must abide by.
> These rules of conduct do NOT violate your rights
> since no one is forced to be a member of this private
> organization. There is NO legal right to belong to a
> private organization, Nor is there any right to force
> your ideas of how this private organization ought to
> be run on the other members contrary to whatever
> bylaws Nova Roma wishes to adopt.
>
> This is fine if Nova Roma desires no more than just
> being a private organization, To be no more than the
> "Roman Club" or a fraternal lodge like some kind of
> "Loyal Order of Romans". Quirites, aren't our
> aspirations higher than this? Do we want to be the
> Nova Roma club, or do we want to be the NATION of Nova
> Roma?
>
> Nations are judged by a far higher standard of conduct
> than mere private clubs, and are expected to protect
> the rights of all of thier citizens. Nations are
> expected to have a just government that doesn't just
> obey the wishes of the majority, but also to protect
> the rights of the minority.
>
> Here is a Quote from Ayn Rand that I consider to be
> important on the subject of the rights of minorities.
> "The smallest minority on earth is the individual.
> Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be
> defenders of minorities."
>
> I fully agree with Ms Rand on this point, and I'll go
> even farther. There is no such thing as group rights.
> Any group has no more rights than it's individual
> members have. The only thing a group has is the
> strength of numbers.
>
> A Just government doesn't derive it's powers from the
> wishes of it's citizens. It is no more than a group of
> citizens, and it's powers come from a grant by the
> citizens acting in common. You can NOT cede a power to
> the government that you do not pocess as an
> individual. You do not gain new powers to cede to the
> government by joining a group, you only become a
> member of a mob, and the only power a mob has is brute
> strength. No mob has the right to force it's will upon
> others. There is no real difference between a mob that
> meets by torchlight to violate the rights of others
> and a mob that assembles by daylight and enters the
> polls to violate the rights of others.
>
> Quirites,
> If you wish Nova Roma to be a nation with a just
> government, then you should consider one thing before
> you vote on any lex. Do I as an individual pocess the
> power that I'm trying to cede to the government? If
> you do not then when you vote for that lex you are
> asking your government to violate the rights of
> another human being.
>
> Valete,
> Lucius Sicinius Drusus
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
> http://auctions.yahoo.com/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Nova Roman Citizenship -Time to get Real.
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Wed, 18 Apr 2001 22:58:40 -0700

Ave,

Actually, many of the ideas can be implemented by the Censors. We, the
Censors shall have a conversation about implementing some of these
ideas.

Respctfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor

Mark A Bird wrote:
>
> Salve Oppius Flaccus Severus
>
> Extremely good reasoning and excellent recommendations - presumably someone
> from the Senate will take notice and start to make some (if not all) of your
> recommendations happen.
>
> Vale
>
> Marcus Sentius Claudius
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Oppius Flaccus Severus [mailto:oppiusflaccus@--------]
> Sent: Thursday, 19 April 2001 12:29 Pm
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: [novaroma] Nova Roman Citizenship -Time to get Real.
>
> Salvete Quiritibus!
>
> I've been watching this discussion with keen interest;
> as many of these points are key even though they have
> been brought up in one form or another in previous debates.
>
> In short, I could not agree more that we need to strengthen
> our measures and determinants of citizenship. To synthesize
> my views with some other current posts on the matter:
>
> 1-An absolute and resounding YES to snail mail applications.
> These applications should be at least as thorough as
> the current ones and preferably more so. Anyone, anywhere
> can fill out a generic html form and post it somewhere
> with it meaning next to nothing at all. The act of writing
> something, including funds and a stamp is a much more
> tangible act than posting text in a web form.
>
> 2-Snail mail applications should be accompanied by a facsimile
> of an applicant's macronational ID of record. Depending
> on the country, this could be a driver's license (I would
> think the most common,) state/federal/local/provincial
> ID card, or the good old standby -a passport. While
> birth certificates are a nice secondary form of ID when
> available, I agree that it can be a pain in the podex
> to get one of these in a timely manner. -Have been
> through this exercise for myself, son and wife.
> *Inconvenient* is a polite term for what we dealt with :-)
>
> 3-Applications should be accompanied by an application
> fee. This could be done either via enclosed personal
> check, traveler's check -or on the web, via PayPal.
> If done via PayPal, the application is held in
> 'escrow' until funds have been verified.
>
> 4-In *addition* to the steps above, when an application
> arrives for processing -either the mater/paterfamilias
> of the gens being petitioned and/or the Provincial
> Governor/Legatus performs some physical form of
> verification. Preferably in the form of a face to
> face meeting.
>
> 5-As a slightly different alternative, membership
> drives at public events could be utilized for
> instant 'pre-approval,' by performing all the
> physical verifications and money collection.
>
> I fully agree that provincial officials are key to making
> such a system work. Of course, it also puts more
> responsibility on the pater/materfamilias to assist
> in the verification process. This will require
> some fundamental changes in our infrastructure and
> likely at least one or more leges to be promulgated
> to allow the appropriate officials the appropriate
> powers to conduct business.
>
> Furthermore, the approval process of provincial
> officials and pater/materfamilias will need to be
> more stringent to ensure that they have the ability
> to perform the requirements of verification in their
> particular situation.
>
> While the organization was in the midst of applying
> for NPC status, I could see how it made perfect sense
> to play the raw numbers game and get as many names as
> possible tied to the association. Now that this status
> has been granted, it is time to make the
> citizenship count for something and to ensure that
> we are all in effect who we say we are.
>
> Furthermore, the mater/paterfamilias, provincial
> officials and Censores could conduct an actual census
> to see just who really exists, who is where and whether
> or not they're actually members of the organization
> or not. It seems apparent that we have at least several
> hundred in our midst who either no longer exist, may
> have never been real at all and/or have no interest
> in participation or involvement.
>
> A case in point: a recent provincial 'census' message
> sent to the civis of my Regio returned *2* responses.
> At least one e-mail has bounced and the other six or
> so names I fully expect not to hear from at all.
>
> Before the flames fly, let me tell you as a civis
> that has actually contributed *real* time and perhaps
> even more importantly *real money* to our organization,
> I have little sympathy for those that do not value
> their citizenship. If we're really going to grow
> and become a physical *nation,* then we need to get
> real; make it count and get to know one another
> as people and not keyboard operators.
>
> Bene valete,
> Oppius Flaccus Severus, Legatus America Boreoccidentalis Major
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> **********************************************************************
> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
> are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
> the Network Administrator on +61 3 9667 6699.
>
> This footnote also confirms that this email message has been scanned
> for the presence of computer viruses and inappropriate content.
> **********************************************************************
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Duplicated citizenship
From:	gaiuscoriolanus@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Apr 2001 06:19:36 -0000

Salvete omnes

Surra is right, because there are more citizens inactive, or
uncontactable some way among us. There must be established another
security system.

Here is my thoughts about this issue:

First of all there is pater/materfamilias who has to revise his
family members. Althoug it could be difficult for him/her because
some mebers are from the other side of world there are censors that
should help him/her with it.

Interesting idea is to make legates to check it up. Yes, they are
best knowledgeable about local situation and their abilities to
contact provincial citizens are better than censors who are far away.

Censors really can not recognize dual citizenship now and governors
could help them to do it, but some provinces are somewhat larger and
more settled than others and it will be more difficult to check up
all citizens in there.

There are still problem with inactive citizens as Surra said. How to
check up them? Maybe it could be solved with mail approvals send by
other citizens, but this is very bureucratic way.

There is only one really safe way. To make a provincial gathering and
there will be clear who is who. But it's not possible to make it with
full attendance.

As you can see there is more issues than solutions in my thoughts.

valete omnes

Gaius Marcius Coriolanus
Paterfamilias Gens Marcia
Legatus Pannoniae Inferioris

--- In novaroma@--------, Jerr--------guston <gaiussentius@--------> wrote:
> Ave omnes,
>
> I have to say that this is a pretty strange idea, and
> open to all sorts of problems in itself. An example of
> this is my brother, who pit-crews around the world,
> and could be away for periods as long as two years. By
> your reckoning, he would not be present to prove his
> identity or etc., so therefore what is to stop his
> being struck off as a spurious citizen while he is
> absent? Currently, he is in Mongolia, and will not be
> back for sometime. He spends around 15 days of every
> year at home (if that), and the rest of the time is
> going around the world. That makes him fairly
> uncontactable, so I would say that in his case,
> failing the fact that we have no proof of his identity
> here at home as he carries it with him everywhere,
> that he could just as easily return home and find
> himself no longer a citizen.
>
> Valete bene omnes,
>
> Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura
>
> --- Lucius Mauricius Procopious <procopious@-------->
> wrote:
> <HR>
> <html><body>
> <tt>
> Salvete Omnes, 
> Could the Governors of Nova Roma be enlisted to aid
> the Censors and ensure 
> no duplicate citizenship's exist? If existing laws
> were changed or their 
> interpretation is altered the Governors of Nova Roma
> could be given the 
> necessary contact information and could then be
> responsible for verifying 
> the cives in their provinces. 
> For those that don't know, the Governors of NR are
> working on this very 
> issue. 
> 
> Lucius Mauricius Procopious 
> Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis 
> (This is an unofficial post for which I assume full
> responsibility) 
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
> procopious@-------- 
> ICQ# 83516618 
> *America Boreoccidentalis Mail List 
> <a
>
href="http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves">http://www.egroups.com
/group/AmBor_Waves</a> 
> * The Gens Mauricia 
> <a
>
href="http://www.geocities.com/procopious">http://www.geocities.com/pr
ocopious</a> 
> 
> "Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by
> the hand of God that the 
> affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate,
> not knowing the reason 
> for what things they see occur; and what seems to be
> without cause is easy 
> to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a
> matter every mortal will 
> decide for himself according to his taste." 
> -Procopius of Caesarea (in
> Palestine) [born c.490/507- died c.560s] 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix"
> al--------us@-------- 
> To: novaroma@-------- 
> Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 1:36 PM 
> Subject: Re: [novaroma] Duplicated citizenship 
> 
> 
> > Ave, 
> > 
> > Senator Lucius Sergius, that is easily
> rectified. Remember when Nova 
> > Roma started we had to snail mail our
> applications to the Censors. I 
> > know I did. Censor Equitius do you have any
> comments on this issue? 
> > 
> > Respectfully, 
> > 
> > Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix 
> > Censor of Nova Roma 
> > 
> > LSergAust@-------- wrote: 
> > > 
> > > Salve Gn. Salix 
> > > 
> > > As far as I can see, we have no
> safeguards at all in our application 
> > > process. We don't verify location, name,
> age, nationality, species, or 
> > > planet of origin. 
> > > 
> > > That's what makes it so peculiar for us to
> demand proof of physical 
> > > gender. Of all the things to worry about
> making sure of...... 
> > > 
> > > We have had people expelled from Nova Roma
> and later re-admitted under 
> an 
> > > different identity (and as a matter of fact,
> I'm getting a little 
> > > suspicious that may have happened
> again). 
> > > 
> > > We need some safeguards, mea sententia. 
> > > 
> > > Vale, 
> > > 
> > > L. Sergius Aust. Obst. 
> > > 
> > > On 4/18/01 2:10 PM Gnaeus Salix Astur
> (salixastur@--------) wrote: 
> > > 
> > > >Salvete, romani quirites. 
> > > > 
> > > >A terrible doubt has ocurred to me: do
> we have some system to avoid 
> > > >multiple citizenship applications? I
> mean, under our actual application 
> > > >system, I could apply several times for
> citizenship with different 
> > > >names and be accepted all the times. 
> > > > 
> > > >Am I wrong? Is there some identity
> control system that makes this 
> > > >impossible? I sincerely hope there
> is! 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >===== 
> > > >Bene Valete! 
> > > >Gnaeus Salix Astur. 
> > > >Civis romanus. 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam
> adesse. 
> > > 
> > > (You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not
> in Kansas anymore.) 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
> <a
>
href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">http://docs.yahoo.com/info/te
rms/</a> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to <a
>
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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Nova Roman Citizenship -Time to get Real.
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 18 Apr 2001 23:21:20 -0700

Salve Patrici Vitruvi;

You bring up a very good point, which I tried
to partially address in my admittedly non-
comprehensive post. For such a system
to work well in the proposed scenario,
the powers of verification would have to
vested in the governor's office itself,
as opposed to applying to the governor only.

The final citizenship approvals would of
course, still rest with the Censores office;
(by 'office,' am including both the
Censores and their appointed or recognized
officials,) as what's being
proposed is a comprehensive system of
*verification* only. There are a vast
number of other steps that the Censores must
do to complete the final citizen
approvals.

Such a system would allow the Legates
(typically assigned by state, country
or Regio,) or even a city-level officer
to perform verifications. Additionally,
tables at events, recruiting drives and
the likes could be advertised as yet
another means of verification.

The key being- some trusted entity saying
'yes, this individual is who they say
they are.' Said verification official reports to the
next official in the chain -Censor most
likely, though possibly a Legate or Governor,
depending on where the official is in the
hierarchy.

The physical verification, coupled with the
written verification and membership
fees -along with the Censores stamp
of approval become the comprehensive system
for completing the citizenship cycle.

Bene vale,
Oppius

-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick Ferguson [mailto:pvitruviusiulianus@--------]
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 9:24 PM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: RE: [novaroma] Nova Roman Citizenship -Time to get Real.

Avete omnes!

I have no problems with most of what has been said so
far, but not *all* of what has been said so far. When
I applied for citizenship to Nova Roma I desired to
form my own gens. So I obviouly could'nt meet with
its pater/materfalmilias. Also, my provincial
governor lives in another city in another state.

<snipped>


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Duplicated citizenship
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 18 Apr 2001 23:50:33 -0700

Salvete Gai Senti et Quiritibus;

I must admit that it's always very
interesting to see the extreme examples
that we're able to come up with in response
to issues :-) (yes, that's a smile)
Seriously though, you bring up a good case
of what would indeed be an interesting
situation. Comments below:
-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Anguston [mailto:gaiussentius@--------]
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 8:50 PM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Duplicated citizenship

Ave omnes,

Gaius Sentius writes:
I have to say that this is a pretty strange idea, and
open to all sorts of problems in itself.

OFS: Well, let's see if we can work through
them then; though the idea in and of itself
is not strange at all. I agree with you though,
that a case like this would require special
handling. Further comments....

Gaius Sentius writes:
An example of
this is my brother, who pit-crews around the world,
and could be away for periods as long as two years. By
your reckoning, he would not be present to prove his
identity or etc., so therefore what is to stop his
being struck off as a spurious citizen while he is
absent?

OFS: While I won't speak for another's intent, I
don't think this is what Procopius was saying. As
you'll note from my post on related subject matter,
the governor's office is being proposed as an
*additional* tool of verification. Such a tool
however is just that -one of many tools. In the case
of your brother, much like the rest of us in a census
situation -he would need submit to some form of
verification.

Using your brother's situation as an example, he
could be verified by any official empowered to do
so, anywhere in our micronation. Since we are not
subject to national borders per se, he could thus
be verified by a Legatus or Governor *or* other
appointed official in the areas through which he
travels. In such a case, he would notify the
Censores for instance that he was going to be
in country 'x' for 'x' length of time. -Arrangements
are made, verification is completed.

Also though, I think such an extreme case could
have special exceptions; even including that he
be verified when returning to his 'home' province,
provided that he communicated with the Censores
and/or his home provincial officials as to his
intent.

Gaius Sentius writes:
Currently, he is in Mongolia, and will not be
back for sometime. He spends around 15 days of every
year at home (if that), and the rest of the time is
going around the world. That makes him fairly
uncontactable, so I would say that in his case,
failing the fact that we have no proof of his identity
here at home as he carries it with him everywhere,
that he could just as easily return home and find
himself no longer a citizen.

OFS: See above. I don't think anyone is advocating
not keeping a citizen as a citizen, *provided* that
they meet the requirements of citizenship. A point
to keep in mind; once someone is verified, *they are
verified.* All your brother would do then would get
the initial verification and then send in his annual
membership fee (assuming one is established,) and
he's good to go regardless of where he is.

Honestly though and this is not meant as a criticism;
more as an observation -I'm not at all sure why anyone
would join an organization, get verified and pay dues
for something they had neither the intention or ability to
participate in. -If I am indeed understanding what you're
saying correctly, your brother has no access to phone,
post or computer equipment with which to be contacted.

Nevertheless, the situation is most interesting indeed
and I hope I've helped clarify at least my perspective
on it.

Bene valete,
Oppius

<snipped>


Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Call to Census in Oklahoma
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 18 Apr 2001 23:57:02 -0700

Salve Marce Flavi!

Excellent letter! You've inspired me to
send a copy of my provincial census mail
to the main list as well, in hopes that
someone here will speak up for the moribund
individuals in our province that are
'missing in action.' Hope your responses
are numerous and comprehensive!

Bene vale,
Oppius
-----Original Message-----
From: britil@-------- [mailto:britil@--------]
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 9:23 PM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Call to Census in Oklahoma

Salvete,

To all members of NovaRoma in Oklahoma. This is a call of
Census. By order of our Governor, Pontius Sejanus Marius.

<snipped>


Subject:	[novaroma] Census -Cives of America Boreoccidentalis Major
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Thu, 19 Apr 2001 00:00:20 -0700

Salvete Quiritibus;

This is a letter to inform you of some happenings in our province.
Some of you may already be aware of these changes -some may
not. As we are in the process of rebuilding the province, this letter
is being sent specifically to confirm the following:

1-That you are still a currently registered and active citizen.

2-That your name, address, e-mail and phone contact information
is still the same as it was when you were granted citizenship

3-Your goals and projected level of involvement in provincial
activities.

As far as provincial structure, I am your legatus: Oppius Flaccus Severus. I
report directly to Lucius Mauricius Procopious and am working with him to ensure
that we can fully understand everyone's interests, level of involvement and
commitment to their citizenship.

Note that this e-mail is a 'blind' list, in that I have no
wish to put anyone on the spot. In fact, it is my sincere hope that everyone on
our citizenship roster will respond to this letter and notify me of your status.
Please be aware that we are slowly gathering information from the Censores, but
this is a time-consuming process and your assistance would be *greatly*
appreciated. Also, note
that for most of you on this list, we quite simply are unaware
if you still exist or have any interest in participation
here. That's largely the reason behind this e-mail. Once
we get everyone confirmed, then I will be sharing my full
macronational contact information with each respondent
so that we may get our task of province building well
under way.

So, with that in mind, please reply to me directly and
privately in e-mail with the following information:

1-Your full Roman Name
2-Your current e-mail address
3-Your current preferred contact telephone number
4-Your current mailing address
5-Degree (if any) of interest in provincial gatherings,
holding office, cultural interests, etc.
6-Whether or not you are subscribed to the provincial
mailing list: ambor_waves@--------
7-Do you know of any cives in the province that
require any non-electronic means of contact such
as phone or post? If so, please provide a means
of contacting these individuals.

Please forgive the intrusion on your time. Any and
all help in helping us update our provincial records
would be most appreciated. As always -any questions,
please do not hesitate to ask.

Bene valete,
Oppius Flaccus Severus, Legatus America Boreoccidentalis Major
mailto:oppiusflaccus@--------


Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Rights of Citizens
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Apr 2001 09:40:57 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <procopious@h...>
wrote:
> Salvete Omnes,
> A well thought and informative post from Lucius Sicinius Drusus! Great
> advice, vote carefully, protect each others rights.
> I won't argue whether or not a group should or does have rights.
I'll agree
> to disagree there. I'd feel more comfortable discussing this if I had a
> better idea what you see as a "right". Are they only those things I
have the
> ability to let government do for me? It's not a right if I can't cede my
> power to do so to the government?
>

You only have one basic right, the right to your life. All other
rights are derived from this one basic right, for example the right of
defense stems from prttecting your right to your life, or they exist
in a negative sense. You have the right of freedom of speach because
no one has the right to use force to prevent you from saying what you
wish.

> As for an individual constituting a minority, are you suggesting
that any
> government that does not have 100% consensual support for it's laws
is not
> just? Otherwise isn't that law actually the mob violating the rights
of the,
> possibly, one dissenting individual.

The Citizens as a group have the right to decide how to regulate the
use of common properity, for example deciding which side of the road
we are going to drive on when Nova Roma aquires land. (That will be a
fun debate) This is a matter of simple majority rule. The Citizens do
NOT have the right to interfere in matters that do not involve common
properity or the violations of others rights.

I grew up in the Southeastern USA during the Cival Rights struggle. If
a law had been presented for a vote in 1963 that stated "Shall Negros
(the term of the time) have the same rights as whites?" That law would
have been defeated in any of the Southern states. Anoter person's
rights are not subject to the vote of the majority and this remains
true if 49% of the populations rights are violated, or 10% or a single
indiviual.

> It almost sounds like you advocate anarchy. Is this so? No government is
> good government?

Anarchy is no more than a prelude to dictatorship. The lawlessness
that would exist under anarchy would cause the people to turn to a
strong man for protection. I favor a government that strictly limited
in it's powers.

> I'll end with a quote myself. Mine is from Epictetus, an ancient
> philosopher, regarding those things we have power over, as they seem
to be
> key to this discussion of rights.
>
> "For, if the greatest hurt be a deprivation of the most valuable
things,
> and the most valuable thing to everyone be rectitue of will; when
anyone is
> deprived of this, why, after all, are you angry? You ought not to be
> affected, O man! contrary to nature, by the evil deeds of another.
Pity him
> rather. Yield not to hatred and anger, nor say, as many do: "What! shall
> these execrable and odious wretches dare to act thus?" Whence have
you so
> suddenly learned wisdom?
> Why are we thus enraged? Because we make idols of those things which
such
> people take from us. Make not an idol of your clothes, and you will
not be
> enraged with the thief. Make not an idol of a woman's beauty, and
you will
> not be enraged with an adulterer. Know that thief and adulterer
cannot reach
> the things that are properly your own; but those only which belong to
> others, and are not within your power."
>
> Lucius Mauricius Procopious
> Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
> (This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)

Vale
L. Sicinius Drusus


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Digest Number 1350
From:	bvm3@--------
Date:	Thu, 19 Apr 2001 12:18:20 +0200

M. Apollonius Formosanus omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D.

I must admit that I was appalled to read the following set of
suggestions and those of other posters whose mindset has been
similar.

Before criticising, let me clarify that this is not an ethical or
human rights issue, but one of simple common sense. Also let it
be clarified that I am against individuals' having duplicate
memberships, as this might skew our democratic processes.

However, it is not an *infinitely* serious problem and does not
merit a level of effort and expense and collective self-harassment
that is a still worse nuisance than to suffer from a few duplicate
memberships. We should keep this all in proportion.

Nova Roma has been growing by leaps and bounds precisely
because

(1) it makes excellent use of the internet to do things without old-
fashioned snail mail hassle,

(2) membership is fundamentally easy to obtain without
complicated documentation and controls, and

(3) there are no dues, taxes or registration fees.

If these advantages are thrown away in an over-ambitious
attempt to reduce fraud - which I at least presume to be
exceedingly rare, since there is no special motivation for it, we will
experience:

(1) a dramatic decline in new members,

(2) a dramatic decline in old memebers to the extent that it is
made retroactive (taxes in themselves would do this, of course)

(3) a nuisance for everyone involved of considerable proportions.

Now, the rest is a value judgement on which people may very
well disagree. Is it worthwhile suffering from the above
disadvantages to reduce (prsumably never completely eliminate)
probably very rare cases of fraud?

I do not doubt that the measures would be quite efficacious, I
simply think the proposed cure to be infinitely worse than the
disease. A disease that is hardly even a mild case of the sniffles,
not something that requires radical chemotherapy and surgical
dismemberment.

By the way, taxes in themselves would greatly cut down on
casual duplicate members, if they exist. For obvious reasons.

But I recommend that we not turn into control freaks, and that
we carefully consider whether the costs of this kind of thinking,
human as well as financial, are really justified by real benefits.
Most of us already suffer from a serious excess of red tape in our
outside lives - do we really want to bring it into Nova Roma to make
ourselves feel more real? We have so far avoided that sort of thing
here - let's hang on to that very precious attainment.

Valete!

On 19 Apr 2001, at 3:50, novaroma@-------- wrote:

> Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 19:29:23 -0700
> From: "Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
> Subject: Nova Roman Citizenship -Time to get Real.
>
> Salvete Quiritibus!
>
> I've been watching this discussion with keen interest;
> as many of these points are key even though they have
> been brought up in one form or another in previous debates.
>
> In short, I could not agree more that we need to strengthen
> our measures and determinants of citizenship. To synthesize
> my views with some other current posts on the matter:
>
> 1-An absolute and resounding YES to snail mail applications.
> These applications should be at least as thorough as
> the current ones and preferably more so. Anyone, anywhere
> can fill out a generic html form and post it somewhere
> with it meaning next to nothing at all. The act of writing
> something, including funds and a stamp is a much more
> tangible act than posting text in a web form.
>
> 2-Snail mail applications should be accompanied by a facsimile
> of an applicant's macronational ID of record. Depending
> on the country, this could be a driver's license (I would
> think the most common,) state/federal/local/provincial
> ID card, or the good old standby -a passport. While
> birth certificates are a nice secondary form of ID when
> available, I agree that it can be a pain in the podex
> to get one of these in a timely manner. -Have been
> through this exercise for myself, son and wife.
> *Inconvenient* is a polite term for what we dealt with :-)
>
> 3-Applications should be accompanied by an application
> fee. This could be done either via enclosed personal
> check, traveler's check -or on the web, via PayPal.
> If done via PayPal, the application is held in
> 'escrow' until funds have been verified.
>
> 4-In *addition* to the steps above, when an application
> arrives for processing -either the mater/paterfamilias
> of the gens being petitioned and/or the Provincial
> Governor/Legatus performs some physical form of
> verification. Preferably in the form of a face to
> face meeting.
>
> 5-As a slightly different alternative, membership
> drives at public events could be utilized for
> instant 'pre-approval,' by performing all the
> physical verifications and money collection.
>
> I fully agree that provincial officials are key to making
> such a system work. Of course, it also puts more
> responsibility on the pater/materfamilias to assist
> in the verification process. This will require
> some fundamental changes in our infrastructure and
> likely at least one or more leges to be promulgated
> to allow the appropriate officials the appropriate
> powers to conduct business.
>
> Furthermore, the approval process of provincial
> officials and pater/materfamilias will need to be
> more stringent to ensure that they have the ability
> to perform the requirements of verification in their
> particular situation.
>
> While the organization was in the midst of applying
> for NPC status, I could see how it made perfect sense
> to play the raw numbers game and get as many names as
> possible tied to the associa