Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Computer Associates commercial
From:	"Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@-------->
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 18:51:17 -0500

Patricius Viturvius Iulianus;
"Unfortunately, this does not work for me. It says
> that there is something wrong with the sight or it may
> be congested. Is there anywhere else I could see it?"

The only place I can think of is, the T.V. But boy, is it cool!

QS

----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Ferguson" <pvitruviusiulianus@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 6:46 PM
Subject: RE: [novaroma] Re: Computer Associates commercial


>
> --- Marcus Papirius Justus <papirius@-------->
> wrote:
> > At 04:26 PM 17/04/2001 +1000, you wrote:
> > >Anyone found a copy on the net yet ???
> >
> >
> > http://www.cai.com/hellotomorrow/
> >
> > mpj
> > (if it's out there, I can find it)
> >
> >
>
> Unfortunately, this does not work for me. It says
> that there is something wrong with the sight or it may
> be congested. Is there anywhere else I could see it?
>
> Cum magna gratia,
>
> Patricius Viturvius Iulianus,
>
> Civis Novae Romae.
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
> http://auctions.yahoo.com/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Computer Associates commercial
From:	Mark A Bird <mark_a_bird@-------->
Date:	Wed, 18 Apr 2001 10:23:40 +1000

It is quite possible your internet connection - I downloaded it last night
but being played on a microsoft system (Player) and not Mac, it jumped a
little.

Marcus Sentius Claudius

-----Original Message-----
From: Quintus Sertorius [mailto:quintus-sertorius@--------]
Sent: Wednesday, 18 April 2001 9:51 Am
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Computer Associates commercial


Patricius Viturvius Iulianus;
"Unfortunately, this does not work for me. It says
> that there is something wrong with the sight or it may
> be congested. Is there anywhere else I could see it?"

The only place I can think of is, the T.V. But boy, is it cool!

QS

----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Ferguson" <pvitruviusiulianus@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 6:46 PM
Subject: RE: [novaroma] Re: Computer Associates commercial


>
> --- Marcus Papirius Justus <papirius@-------->
> wrote:
> > At 04:26 PM 17/04/2001 +1000, you wrote:
> > >Anyone found a copy on the net yet ???
> >
> >
> > http://www.cai.com/hellotomorrow/
> >
> > mpj
> > (if it's out there, I can find it)
> >
> >
>
> Unfortunately, this does not work for me. It says
> that there is something wrong with the sight or it may
> be congested. Is there anywhere else I could see it?
>
> Cum magna gratia,
>
> Patricius Viturvius Iulianus,
>
> Civis Novae Romae.
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
> http://auctions.yahoo.com/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>





Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Computer Associates commercial
From:	Marcus Papirius Justus <papirius@-------->
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 20:53:07 -0400

At 04:46 PM 17/04/2001 -0700, you wrote:

>Unfortunately, this does not work for me. It says
>that there is something wrong with the sight or it may
>be congested. Is there anywhere else I could see it?
>
>Cum magna gratia,
>
>Patricius Viturvius Iulianus,
>
>Civis Novae Romae.

I think the site went wonky sometime this a.m. (in the midst of my
downloading) ... this is one of those things when the option comes up to
download it or stream it, to select download ...

regards,

dm

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: The name-change issue
From:	Marius the Wanderer <peregrinus@-------->
Date:	Date header was inserted by mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net

Ex papilio Luci Mari Peregrini omnibus Quiritibus s.p.d.

Consul Germanicus scripsit:
[an excellent compromise proposal!, best summarized below:]

>> In other words, if one was willing to legally change their "mundane
>> name" to one that did not match their physical gender, that would
>> be enough to have the Censors to change one's Roman name as well.
>> (Officially recorded gender would remain whatever the physical
>> gender was, but that would obviously remain confidential as is
>> already the case under the law.)

I like it. I like it a lot. It takes as 'evidence enough' something
most people in my situation would want to do anyway sooner or later. I
believe this addresses the concerns of both myself and Censor Sulla, to
the extent that I understand the latter; Censor, have you any comment?

Sed Octavius Germanicus respondit:
>This would cause problems with the website. It is full of such things
>as:
>
> ${!if Citizen.gender=='F'}
> materfamilias
> ${!else}
> paterfamilias
> ${!endif}
>
>Adding database columns for "public gender" and "offical gender", or
>somesuch, and capability to edit such, would waste a significant
>amount of time.

A simple solution: Decide that '.gender' refers to *gender* (a social
construct) rather than physical sex (one's anatomical configuration).
In the case of a transgendered Civis you'll want the code to generate
titles appropriate to their social gender; for anybody else, 'gender'
and 'sex' will be the same thing anyway. You won't have to change a
thing.

Macte virtute, Consul!

In fides,
***********************************************************
Lucius Marius Peregrinus <peregrinus@-------->
Storyteller, Roleplayer Emeritus, |>[SPQR]<|
Historical Re-Creationist |\=/|
and Citizen of Rome ( ~ 6 )~~~----...,,__
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - `\*/, `` }`^~`,,, \ \
"Is Rome worth one good man's life? ``=.\ (__==\_ /\ }
We believed it once. | | / )\ \| /
Make us believe it again." _|_| / _/_| /`(
-- Lucilla, _Gladiator_ /./..=' /./..'

Subject:	[novaroma] My ICQ
From:	octavianuslucius@--------
Date:	Wed, 18 Apr 2001 01:37:10 -0000

Salvete omnes.

I already uninstalled my ICQ, so do not send me any message to ICQ
please. Thank you. You can email me at my email address as usual.

Valete bene
Lucius Pompeius Octavianus

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: The name-change issue
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Tue, 17 Apr 2001 18:56:10 -0700

Ave,

I am a magistrate of Nova Roma, I have taken an oath of office and in my
opinion as a magistrate of Nova Roma here is my humble opinion:

I do not like it. As has been pointed out a number of times on this list
people can legally change their names to "President of the United States of
America." This whole issue is not just a name change issue..but it is also
a gender issue. By changing the Gender on your macronation of residence you
are there showing to the world that you value Nova Roman citizenship equally
with your macronational citizenship. Personally, I had no problem with the
first "gender" and I compromised on the revision that is currently law in
Nova Roma, and has been for about 10 months now. I do not see a reason to
change it. Nor to continue to compromise on it now. To do so will cheapen
Nova Roman citizenship to the point where a man can be a man and a woman can
be a man.

Our issue in Nova Roma regarding names and gender is intertwined. It is an
undeniable fact. Pranomens, Nomens, and 99% of the Cognomens reflect this
identification.

My question still stands, "Why should Nova Roma cater to people who are not
willing to do the same things on their macronational citizenship?"

Now dont say costs....because upon investigation most counties have
petitions one can file to minimize those costs. In California its a single
form about 2 pages in length.

I have spent countless hours, spent financial resources to try to help
validiate Nova Roma into something real. And, at the same time try to pass
laws to help that process along by building procedures where there wasnt
any. I will continue to do so, but this compromise edict doesn't help
validate this. For what it does is raise more questions....for example just
off the top of my head....What if someone's name was President of the United
States of America, what gender do we use then? Or even more
realistically....if someone had a name that could go for both genders?

I do apologize to you, the People of Nova Roma for continuing to clog our
main
list with this issue. I have tried not to post on this topic....but, I was
invited "out
of my hole," by Lucia Maria.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor of Nova Roma

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marius the Wanderer" <peregrinus@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Cc: "Marius Peregrinus" <peregrinus@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 6:14 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: The name-change issue


> Ex papilio Luci Mari Peregrini omnibus Quiritibus s.p.d.
>
> Consul Germanicus scripsit:
> [an excellent compromise proposal!, best summarized below:]
>
> >> In other words, if one was willing to legally change their "mundane
> >> name" to one that did not match their physical gender, that would
> >> be enough to have the Censors to change one's Roman name as well.
> >> (Officially recorded gender would remain whatever the physical
> >> gender was, but that would obviously remain confidential as is
> >> already the case under the law.)
>
> I like it. I like it a lot. It takes as 'evidence enough' something
> most people in my situation would want to do anyway sooner or later. I
> believe this addresses the concerns of both myself and Censor Sulla, to
> the extent that I understand the latter; Censor, have you any comment?
>
> Sed Octavius Germanicus respondit:
> >This would cause problems with the website. It is full of such things
> >as:
> >
> > ${!if Citizen.gender=='F'}
> > materfamilias
> > ${!else}
> > paterfamilias
> > ${!endif}
> >
> >Adding database columns for "public gender" and "offical gender", or
> >somesuch, and capability to edit such, would waste a significant
> >amount of time.
>
> A simple solution: Decide that '.gender' refers to *gender* (a social
> construct) rather than physical sex (one's anatomical configuration).
> In the case of a transgendered Civis you'll want the code to generate
> titles appropriate to their social gender; for anybody else, 'gender'
> and 'sex' will be the same thing anyway. You won't have to change a
> thing.
>
> Macte virtute, Consul!
>
> In fides,
> ***********************************************************
> Lucius Marius Peregrinus <peregrinus@-------->
> Storyteller, Roleplayer Emeritus, |>[SPQR]<|
> Historical Re-Creationist |\=/|
> and Citizen of Rome ( ~ 6 )~~~----...,,__
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - `\*/, `` }`^~`,,, \ \
> "Is Rome worth one good man's life? ``=.\ (__==\_ /\ }
> We believed it once. | | / )\ \| /
> Make us believe it again." _|_| / _/_| /`(
> -- Lucilla, _Gladiator_ /./..=' /./..'
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: The name-change issue
From:	mansker@--------
Date:	Wed, 18 Apr 2001 02:01:14 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@--------> wrote:
>
M. Apollonius Fomosanus Aedilis Plebeius . .

I beg to differ on a few of the ideas presented in your post.

>3. Persons with ambiguously gendered names such as "Pat", "Billy"
>and "Keith" would either have a much easier time than other people
>or they would have to make a completely unnecessary name change from
>this point of view in the external world just to have made one to
>satisfy Nova Roma.

I am hoping, that including the name "Keith", that you are joking.
I, personally, am named Patricia and go by Pat via most of my work,
etc. I have never considered it ambiguous, although I can understand
why others feel that way. Regardless, I don't feel that the name
that I hold in real life would make it easier or harder to change my
name in NovaRoma.

>4. The whole idea that basic human rights such as expectation that
>one's announced gender identity be respected (whatever another
>person believes about one's underlying "sex") and that one has a
>right to choose and change one's own name if one wishes is a very
>important principle. Fundamentally human rights should not be
>decided on by compromises, especially since those with whom the
>compromises would be made in this case have no greater standing or
>legitimacy in the argument than a prejudice against persons with
>rare forms of sexual identity.

I have never considered basic human rights to include an expectation
that people will respect anything about you or your lifestyle. Basic
human rights are food, shelter, life, liberty and the pursuit of
happiness. It does not include having people buy into your
lifestyle. Choosing and changing one's name is your right, and I
believe that this is what this edict is saying. If you choose your
name in the "real world" and choose to live by that name, then you
should be able to prove to NovaRoma what that name and your chosen
(or lived)gender is. This is not a compromise, and not against what
I, and most people, feel are human rights. I do not feel that what
is happening is a prejudice against any person, and I am puzzled by
your categorization of this as a "rare form of sexual identity". I
have read all of the previous posts, and cannot understand why you
feel this is the case.


>5. Although I completely agree that we do not want people to regard
>Nova Roma as a rôle-playing game, the understandable desire to
>simply play a Roman rôle and the much less common desire to play a
>rôle in the opposite sex just for fun (?) should not be confused. I
>see no reason why Roman-oriented RPG-ers would have any special
>attraction to changing their sex here, even if they might feel a
>natural attraction to do Romam RPG-ing here. This is a non-issue,
>and always has been.

I am in agreement with the above view, but feel that the standards
should apply here as in other places. If the person who wishes to
change their gender had signed up with that gender here, then it
would be a non-issue. If they feel that by signing up under their
chosen gender they would be lying, as I have heard stated in other
posts, then what is their point? By trying to change their name now,
they are forcing an issue that they are not the gender they are
saying they are, thereby either stating that they are living a lie in
the Real world, or they are trying to force a lie on NovaRoma. Which
is it?

Gaia Flacca Severa

Subject:	[novaroma] New Email name
From:	V_Praetoria@--------
Date:	Wed, 18 Apr 2001 03:27:28 -0000

Avete,
Just a note to let you all know my email changed from
V_Praetoria@-------- to Legio_vi@--------. So update as
you wish.

Pontius Sejanus Marius

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Roman environmentalism
From:	"Teleri ferch Nyfain" <rckovak@-------->
Date:	Wed, 18 Apr 2001 00:31:50 -0400

Salvete,

C. Minucius Hadrianus scripsit:
<<It's my guess that if a Roman thought of the environment
at all, it was in a purely practical and "exploitive" sense...
i.e. "what can I get out of it?" (which interstingly seems to be the
way many Romans looked at Religion as well). >>

I'd agree with this statement, except for the word "exploitive". The
ancients depended much more on seasonal agriculture than we do today, since
they had no artificial refrigeration nor mass long-distance transport to
haul produce about.

Because of this, they were forced to pay much closer attention to the
"interconnectedness" I referred to in an earlier post. In other words, they
weren't environmentalists for any sentimental reasons, but for practical
ones. They understood that their own survival depended on the continuation
of the natural cycles.

Some, of course, understood this better than others :)

Valete,
Helena Galeria

PS I am actually not a Wiccan but I am a witch - what is the Latin for that?
Something on the lines of sorciere?

Subject:	[novaroma] Billingualism in Ancient Rome (was: Re: What is the best of Rome?)
From:	"G. Noviodunus Ferriculus" <Gaius.Noviodunus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 18 Apr 2001 10:03:22 +0200

Salve!

Patrick Ferguson wrote:


>>Division within cities? What a nonsense! I'm staying

>>in a billingual

>>city. You can go in a shop and address the vendor in

>>either language...

>>I don't see a division line. And I was referring to

>>the Roman world

>>where scholars knew *equally* latin and greek. What

>>were Caesar's last

>>words? "kai sy technon" or "tu quoque mi fili"?

>>

>

> You may, but I am not. Two languages are spoken in my

> city as well. But most of the time a person only

> knows one of them. Your situation is quite different

> from mine. Also there are cultural divisions along

> these language lines where I live. However, thanks

> for stressing how things were. I was simply stressing

> how things are, for some people at least.

Then you are not talking of billingualism. Billingualism is not only
the cohabitation of 2 languages, but rather that a majority of the
people do speak both languages equally, since childhood. If you learnt
sometime in School a second language, this doesn't make of you a
billingual person.

Vale

--
Gaius Noviodunus Ferriculus
Civis Provinciae Germaniae, Regionis Superioris
Friburgii Helvetiorum

Subject:	[novaroma] The name-change issue
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Wed, 18 Apr 2001 11:32:11 +0200

Salve Gaia!

I would like to respond to your response to my post. Please see my
comments below ("MAF")

Scripsisti:

Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 02:01:14 -0000
From: mansker@--------
Subject: Re: The name-change issue

--- In novaroma@--------, "M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@--------> wrote:
>
M. Apollonius Fomosanus Aedilis Plebeius . .

I beg to differ on a few of the ideas presented in your post.

>3. Persons with ambiguously gendered names such as "Pat", "Billy"
>and "Keith" would either have a much easier time than other people
>or they would have to make a completely unnecessary name change from
>this point of view in the external world just to have made one to
>satisfy Nova Roma.

I am hoping, that including the name "Keith", that you are joking.
I, personally, am named Patricia and go by Pat via most of my work,
etc. I have never considered it ambiguous, although I can understand
why others feel that way. Regardless, I don't feel that the name
that I hold in real life would make it easier or harder to change my
name in NovaRoma.

MAF: I assume that you think of "Keith" as masculine - the Keith,
however, whom I have known best was a female whose physical
configurations would leave no prima facie doubt as to that fact. :-)
Most agreeabley not!

I daresay that "Pat" is sometimes not a shortened nickname for "Patrick"
or "Patricia", but a real, official name in its own right, and therefore
not a useful indicator as to the bearer's sex.

My point was that if a person named "Pat" (official name) wished to
change his/her name as a justification for a gender change in Nova Roma,
it would be rather pointless, since the name can be used equally well by
either sex. But if it were on that account considered unnecessary to
change it, a Pat would have an easier way to get a gender change in NR
than others. And not because one would be using the name "Pat" in NR
anyway, but so that one would be allowed to change to another gendered
name in NR, quite different from "Pat" anyway!

I just pointed out this little technical problem to show that this whole
idea of regulating people's name-gender or sex is not very fair or
sensible.

>4. The whole idea that basic human rights such as expectation that
>one's announced gender identity be respected (whatever another
>person believes about one's underlying "sex") and that one has a
>right to choose and change one's own name if one wishes is a very
>important principle. Fundamentally human rights should not be
>decided on by compromises, especially since those with whom the
>compromises would be made in this case have no greater standing or
>legitimacy in the argument than a prejudice against persons with
>rare forms of sexual identity.

I have never considered basic human rights to include an expectation
that people will respect anything about you or your lifestyle. Basic
human rights are food, shelter, life, liberty and the pursuit of
happiness.

MAF: Food? Do I really have to work to feed you? It is nice if a state
provides such a guarantee, but I would hardly call it an absolute human
right. When others do not have enough to eat one would hardly be able to
claim food from them as amoral right - but one can always claim a
*basic* right, I think. But to have people respect who you are, in terms
of your name, sex, choice of religious belief, and reality as a human
being with a moral conscience to satisfy and the possibility to suffer
if mistreated, yes those things fundamental to human dignity in society
can always be expected and should always be offered. People have a right
to control the things most intimate to themselves and most necessary for
their human dignity. If one's sexual identity and name are not among
those things, it is hard to say what is. Isn't it?

And if you call a person by a wrong-gendered name according to his/her
understanding and preference, knowing that this will be considered an
insulting denial of his/her right to be accepted as him/her-self, then
the person so treated will have every natural reason to consider you
rude and lacking in fundamental respect towards other human beings. In
other words, a thoughtless and aggresssive person, whom society would be
better off without. I would not like to give people a just reason to
consider me so, and I am surprised that you would.
_________________

It does not include having people buy into your
lifestyle.

MAF: I am inclined to think that the transsexual whose lifestyle you do
not "buy into" is perfectly willing to buy into yours and treat you
socially according to your preferred gender. Do you not feel a sense of
reciprocity and mutual fairness?
__________________

Choosing and changing one's name is your right, and I
believe that this is what this edict is saying. If you choose your
name in the "real world" and choose to live by that name, then you
should be able to prove to NovaRoma what that name and your chosen
(or lived) gender is.

MAF: Why? I assume that Nova Roma accepted your name with no proof
except your own word. Why treat others with less trust? Unless an acr of
discrimination is being made to treat some with mistrust and others not
because of their sexual-minority status.

This is not a compromise, and not against what
I, and most people, feel are human rights.

MAF: About "most" people I cannot affirm or deny, but I see that you
never thought of it that way. However, I think that if something
happened to your brain chemistry or psyche and you suddenly felt that
you were subjectively clearly and unmistakably male, you might indeed
free a very intuitive sense of outrage if others did not accept this
change once you had accepted it yourself. I think it deserves thought
and a little bit of imaginative exploration so that we appreciate other
people's problems, even when they are very different from our own
problems and even from our own ideas of common sense.

To me, not giving at least passive acceptance to the gender someone
obviously wishes to present him/her-self as is simply incredibly rude
and bad manners - a causing of offence for no good reason.
____________________________

I do not feel that what
is happening is a prejudice against any person, and I am puzzled by
your categorization of this as a "rare form of sexual identity". I
have read all of the previous posts, and cannot understand why you
feel this is the case.

MAF: I am sorry, but I do not quite see what you don't understand. I
guess we just went past each other here. What I meant was that most
people have a genital sex and a brain sex (or a physical sex and a
mental sex - depending on your bio-psychological theory) that are the
same. The people who have a difference between the two sexes are
statistically infrequent in human populations. That is why I phrased it
as I did.

>5. Although I completely agree that we do not want people to regard
>Nova Roma as a rôle-playing game, the understandable desire to
>simply play a Roman rôle and the much less common desire to play a
>rôle in the opposite sex just for fun (?) should not be confused. I
>see no reason why Roman-oriented RPG-ers would have any special
>attraction to changing their sex here, even if they might feel a
>natural attraction to do Roman RPG-ing here. This is a non-issue,
>and always has been.

I am in agreement with the above view, but feel that the standards
should apply here as in other places. If the person who wishes to
change their gender had signed up with that gender here, then it
would be a non-issue. If they feel that by signing up under their
chosen gender they would be lying, as I have heard stated in other
posts, then what is their point? By trying to change their name now,
they are forcing an issue that they are not the gender they are
saying they are, thereby either stating that they are living a lie in
the Real world, or they are trying to force a lie on Nova Roma. Which
is it?

MAF: The outside world is often full of uncomprehending people,
stupidities and injustices - not just about this issue, but about many.
People may be confused, people may bend to psychological, social or
governmental pressures - many things can happen that prevent a
straightforward line of behaviour such as one might desire. Transsexual
people giving their true mental sex, whenever and wherever they do it
and whatever they may do elsewhere are obviously not trying to lie, but
to tell the truth. And if they sometimes say the opposite according to
their bodily configuration because they think that is what sombody else
wants to hear and it could be justified too (by their outward
appearance), why call that a "lie"?

If we can agree on terms that adequately deal with the reality, we can
get true information without ambiguity and without accusing anyone of
lying. An application form with places for "physical sexuality" and
"personal/social gender" would get all the information anyone would want
to receive or provide without problems. The whole problem arises when we
try to make those two differnt things only one for that segment of
humanity in whom they are bio-psychologically divided.

M. Apollonius Formosanus,
Aedilis Plebeius

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Re: The name-change issue
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Wed, 18 Apr 2001 13:25:56 +0200

M. Apollonius Formosanus Aedilis Plebeius
L. Cornelio Sullae Felici Censori Salutem Plurimam Dicit

It seems like old times again to square off with you over the issue
of one of your edicta, and I cannot help but feel a certain affection
for you bred of the familiarity of the experience. Please believe me
when I say that I do not want to cause any defeat to you because of any
personal animosity; I simply want a class of people who have been made
to hurt to no longer have to hurt because they will in future be treated
fairly and with humanity. In that I see the good of Nova Roma as well.
Your indefatigable work on behalf of this Respublica as Censor is
something that none of your detractors can deny. And yet the necessity
for a Censor representing all of us here to make *all kinds* of
Roman-oriented people feel welcome among us is also clear.

Permit me to comment on your words:

Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 18:56:10 -0700
From: "L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
Subject: Re: Re: The name-change issue

Ave,

I am a magistrate of Nova Roma, I have taken an oath of office and in my

opinion as a magistrate of Nova Roma here is my humble opinion:

I do not like it. As has been pointed out a number of times on this
list
people can legally change their names to "President of the United States
of
America." This whole issue is not just a name change issue..but it is
also
a gender issue.

MAF: Well, as I understand it, yes and no. I have never insisted that we
could not keep a record of citizens' genital sexuality if there were
some use in doing so. Therefore what I, at least, am concerned with is
simply allowing *name genders* to reflect the sense of sexual
self-identity of the person using the name.

As you never tired of pointing out before (but have not respected in
your own addressing of Marius), Nova Roma citizens already have the
right of using whatever gender identity they want in their names
unofficially. The only thing I would like to see is that this be
recognised in persons' official names as well. If there were still a
register of gross physical or macronational sexual identity, I do not
see that very much would be lost from your point of view, whereas not
being forced on certain occasions to use a name gendered in a way
offensive to them would mean a very great deal personally to any
transsexual people among us. Forcing them to do so is a humiliation,
just as it would be if you or I were forced to use female names on
official occasions because of somebody else's prejudice coupled with
power.
_______

By changing the Gender on your macronation of residence you
are there showing to the world that you value Nova Roman citizenship
equally
with your macronational citizenship.

MAF: The reasoning here seems unclear. If one can get along quite
happily using one's social gender of choice without changing one's
theoretical legal gender in the macronational world, why and how does
changing it (a nuisance) show respect for Nova Roman citizenship? One
might equally well say that by changing it in Nova Roma before bothering
to do it in the macronation, one is showing even more respect for one's
Nova Roman citizenship!
______

Personally, I had no problem with the
first "gender" and I compromised on the revision that is currently law
in
Nova Roma, and has been for about 10 months now. I do not see a reason
to
change it. Nor to continue to compromise on it now. To do so will
cheapen
Nova Roman citizenship to the point where a man can be a man and a woman
can
be a man.

MAF: Since some people are transsexual and some are bisexual, there
*are* certainly cases where a "woman" (in some sense) can be a "man" (in
some sense) and a "man" (in some sense) can be a "woman" (in some
sense). This is just a matter of scientifically-confirmed fact. It is
not good to ignore facts about the world just because we do not like
them. I do not like this state of affairs either, but would like all
people to be "normal" sexually, since I suppose that everyone would be
happier that way. But I recognise that denying the facts about the real
world will subject real human beings to real frustration, insult, and
mental pain and suffering that they do not deserve just because of not
fitting our preferences. We owe it to them to refrain from making their
problems greater than they are naturally. That is simple courtesy and
human decency.
__________

Our issue in Nova Roma regarding names and gender is intertwined. It is
an
undeniable fact. Pranomens, Nomens, and 99% of the Cognomens reflect
this
identification.

MAF: I completely agree. But intertwining gross physical sexual
characteristics or some other nation's theoretical legal opinion about
some Nova Roma citizen's sex is not necessitated by the simple fact that
Latin names have grammatical gender. That additional complication has
been artificially introduced, and the introduction has caused personal
chagrin and public controversy.
_________

My question still stands, "Why should Nova Roma cater to people who are
not
willing to do the same things on their macronational citizenship?"

MAF: My counterquestion is this: "What is the real advantage or
necessity to Nova Roma of forcing people to officially use a gender they
do not feel describes their real selves? Or forcing them to undertake
legal procedures in the outside world that they feel no necessity to
undertake on their own merits for life in the outside world?"
____________

Now dont say costs....because upon investigation most counties have
petitions one can file to minimize those costs. In California its a
single
form about 2 pages in length.

I have spent countless hours, spent financial resources to try to help
validiate Nova Roma into something real. And, at the same time try to
pass
laws to help that process along by building procedures where there wasnt

any. I will continue to do so, but this compromise edict doesn't help
validate this. For what it does is raise more questions....for example
just
off the top of my head....What if someone's name was President of the
United
States of America, what gender do we use then? Or even more
realistically....if someone had a name that could go for both genders?

MAF: It is interesting that in America - a great nation - you can adopt
just about any name you wish, even the most bizarre, as you suggest, and
the nation is not endangered. I might note in passing that "President"
in English and "Praeses" in Latin can both be used for man or woman -
why is that a problem? I myself have in another post mentioned that
English names such as "Pat" (as an official name, not a nickname) might
make one wonder if a person having such a name and wishing to change
his/her gender in Nova Roma would have to change the name or not. I
think this points up the uselessness of having to do things in the
external world just to change the gender of one's name in Nova Roma.
_______________

I do apologize to you, the People of Nova Roma for continuing to clog
our
main list with this issue. I have tried not to post on this
topic....but, I was
invited "out of my hole," by Lucia Maria.

MAF: There is never any need to apologise to the responsible citizens
who realise that politics may require discussing things at *great*
length sometimes - even when it becomes boring. People's basic rights to
control their own names and identities are a topic that merits the most
serious of discussions, and as we try to work out a compromise and
undertake a democratic vote to resolve this issue at last (if possible),
we should be sure to give it adequate discussion - hopefully more
reasoned and comprehensive than hitherto, and hopefully more convergent.

For my part the basic affair is simple: People exist who have a
difference between their obvious bodily sexual characteristics and the
way they naturally feel in terms of their sense of self. This is
inconvenient, but it is not a crime and not morally significant. Forcing
them to treat their bodily gender as the real one against their will and
sense of self causes them mental pain and humiliation. Courtesy and
humanity demand that we make it as easy as possible to present
themselves in accordance with their personal sense of identity, and that
we do so with as little red tape and as few special conditions as
humanly possible. By so doing we shall show Nova Roma to be an
enlightened and fair-minded nation.

Valete!


----- Original Message -----
From: "Marius the Wanderer" <peregrinus@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Cc: "Marius Peregrinus" <peregrinus@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 6:14 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: The name-change issue


> Ex papilio Luci Mari Peregrini omnibus Quiritibus s.p.d.
>
> Consul Germanicus scripsit:
> [an excellent compromise proposal!, best summarized below:]
>
> >> In other words, if one was willing to legally change their "mundane

> >> name" to one that did not match their physical gender, that would
> >> be enough to have the Censors to change one's Roman name as well.
> >> (Officially recorded gender would remain whatever the physical
> >> gender was, but that would obviously remain confidential as is
> >> already the case under the law.)
>
> I like it. I like it a lot. It takes as 'evidence enough' something
> most people in my situation would want to do anyway sooner or later.
I
> believe this addresses the concerns of both myself and Censor Sulla,
to
> the extent that I understand the latter; Censor, have you any comment?

>
> Sed Octavius Germanicus respondit:
> >This would cause problems with the website. It is full of such
things
> >as:
> >
> > ${!if Citizen.gender=='F'}
> > materfamilias
> > ${!else}
> > paterfamilias
> > ${!endif}
> >
> >Adding database columns for "public gender" and "offical gender", or
> >somesuch, and capability to edit such, would waste a significant
> >amount of time.
>
> A simple solution: Decide that '.gender' refers to *gender* (a social
> construct) rather than physical sex (one's anatomical configuration).
> In the case of a transgendered Civis you'll want the code to generate
> titles appropriate to their social gender; for anybody else, 'gender'
> and 'sex' will be the same thing anyway. You won't have to change a
> thing.
>
> Macte virtute, Consul!

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Alternative to Name-change Edict--Reply to Sulla
From:	Kristoffer From <kristoffer.from@-------->
Date:	Wed, 18 Apr 2001 13:28:53 +0200

Salve, Luci Mari.

Just a minor detail...I don't get a time/date stamp on your e-mails,
which automatically moves them to someplace on my mailing list where I
don't find them until much later. The error reads something like:

"Date header was inserted by mta1.rcsntx.swbell.net"

If this is something you know how to fix without too many problems, it
would be great if you did. If not, I hope you don't mind too much a
somewhat delayed response to your postings, at least from me.

Thank you, and be well.

Vale,

Titus Octavius Pius,
Consiliarius Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum

AKA Kristoffer From

---

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] I'm here!
From:	"A. Cato" <a.cato@-------->
Date:	Wed, 18 Apr 2001 07:35:30 -0400

Salve Marce Scriboni: Glad to hear from you. Hope your computer's hard drive
is doing better. :-) Those two first elections really taught me just what
was involved. ... Ave atque vale, ... Appius Tullius Marcellus Cato, ...
Rogator
----- Original Message -----
From: <marcusaemiliusscaurus@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 2:41 PM
Subject: [novaroma] I'm here!


> Salvete omnes,
>
> My computer "Should" be ready in time for the elections. If not,
> just look for the gibbering maniac drooling and laughing, and if he's
> there, assume I'm beyond help... :-)
>
> Bene valete,
> Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus.
> Rogatorus Frustratedus
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Alternative to Name-change Edict--Reply to Sulla
From:	Kristoffer From <kristoffer.from@-------->
Date:	Wed, 18 Apr 2001 14:45:27 +0200

Kristoffer From wrote:
> Salve, Luci Mari.
>
> Just a minor detail...I don't get a time/date stamp on your e-mails,
> which automatically moves them to someplace on my mailing list where I
> don't find them until much later. The error reads something like:
>
> "Date header was inserted by mta1.rcsntx.swbell.net"
>
> If this is something you know how to fix without too many problems, it
> would be great if you did. If not, I hope you don't mind too much a
> somewhat delayed response to your postings, at least from me.
>
> Thank you, and be well.
>
> Vale,
>
> Titus Octavius Pius,

Salvete, omnes.

This was meant to be private, sorry for clogging up...:P

Valete,

Titus Octavius Pius,
Consiliarius Thules,
Praeco Anarei Thules,
Scriba to the Curator Araneum

AKA Kristoffer From

---

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Billingualism in Ancient Rome (was: Re: What is the best of Rome?)
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	Wed, 18 Apr 2001 09:49:11 -0300 (BRT)

On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, G. Noviodunus Ferriculus wrote:

> Salve!
>
> Patrick Ferguson wrote:
>
>
> >>Division within cities? What a nonsense! I'm staying
>
> >>in a billingual
>
> >>city. You can go in a shop and address the vendor in
>
> >>either language...
>
> >>I don't see a division line. And I was referring to
>
> >>the Roman world
>
> >>where scholars knew *equally* latin and greek. What
>
> >>were Caesar's last
>
> >>words? "kai sy technon" or "tu quoque mi fili"?
>
> >>
>
> >
>
> > You may, but I am not. Two languages are spoken in my
>
> > city as well. But most of the time a person only
>
> > knows one of them. Your situation is quite different
>
> > from mine. Also there are cultural divisions along
>
> > these language lines where I live. However, thanks
>
> > for stressing how things were. I was simply stressing
>
> > how things are, for some people at least.
>
> Then you are not talking of billingualism. Billingualism is not only
> the cohabitation of 2 languages, but rather that a majority of the
> people do speak both languages equally, since childhood. If you learnt
> sometime in School a second language, this doesn't make of you a
> billingual person.

Being myself bilingual (or better tri-lingual) I must say that both views
are valid. When you live in a truly bilingual region, you can address
someone in any language, you can even switch from one to the other in the
middle of a conversation, or use words from one in the other because they
traduce more clearly your thoughts. But bilinguism can also occur when you
emigrate to a new country, learning its language (which you obviously didn
t speak since child) and if well done this will again lead you to a
bilingual situation inside your community when you speak with each other
in either language, the original or the new one.

I still speak alemanic with my parents, french with my wife, portuguese
with my daughter, primarly, with switch between french and alemanic with
my parents, french and portuguese with wife and daughter adn this
situation does not create any stress or complication.

For Roman examples, if bilinguism Hellenic Koine/Latin was the norm in the
late empire, trilinguism was even more common in the early empire
Koine/Latin/Local language. For ex. Josephus definitively spoke and wrote
Hebraic, Koine and Latin.

Manius Villius Limitanus.

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The name-change issue
From:	Michel Loos <loos@-------->
Date:	Wed, 18 Apr 2001 09:40:11 -0300 (BRT)

On Wed, 18 Apr 2001, M. Apollonius Formosanus wrote:

> Salve Gaia!
>
> I would like to respond to your response to my post. Please see my
> comments below ("MAF")
>
> Scripsisti:
>
> Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 02:01:14 -0000
> From: mansker@--------
> Subject: Re: The name-change issue
>
> --- In novaroma@--------, "M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@--------> wrote:
> >
> M. Apollonius Fomosanus Aedilis Plebeius . .
>
> I beg to differ on a few of the ideas presented in your post.
>
> >3. Persons with ambiguously gendered names such as "Pat", "Billy"
> >and "Keith" would either have a much easier time than other people
> >or they would have to make a completely unnecessary name change from
> >this point of view in the external world just to have made one to
> >satisfy Nova Roma.
>
> I am hoping, that including the name "Keith", that you are joking.
> I, personally, am named Patricia and go by Pat via most of my work,
> etc. I have never considered it ambiguous, although I can understand
> why others feel that way. Regardless, I don't feel that the name
> that I hold in real life would make it easier or harder to change my
> name in NovaRoma.
>
> MAF: I assume that you think of "Keith" as masculine - the Keith,
> however, whom I have known best was a female whose physical
> configurations would leave no prima facie doubt as to that fact. :-)
> Most agreeabley not!
>
> I daresay that "Pat" is sometimes not a shortened nickname for "Patrick"
> or "Patricia", but a real, official name in its own right, and therefore
> not a useful indicator as to the bearer's sex.
>
> My point was that if a person named "Pat" (official name) wished to
> change his/her name as a justification for a gender change in Nova Roma,
> it would be rather pointless, since the name can be used equally well by
> either sex. But if it were on that account considered unnecessary to
> change it, a Pat would have an easier way to get a gender change in NR
> than others. And not because one would be using the name "Pat" in NR
> anyway, but so that one would be allowed to change to another gendered
> name in NR, quite different from "Pat" anyway!
>
> I just pointed out this little technical problem to show that this whole
> idea of regulating people's name-gender or sex is not very fair or
> sensible.

Just another problem on the same issue: Names that have different genders
in different countries.
Ex: Sacha/Vania/Wladia are definitively masculine names in North and
Eastern-Europe, here in Brasil they are feminine names.
Michele in Italy definitively masculine is very similar to the feminine
Michelle in France (how is it spelled in english for the feminine?) and
this list could go on for very long.


>
> >4. The whole idea that basic human rights such as expectation that
> >one's announced gender identity be respected (whatever another
> >person believes about one's underlying "sex") and that one has a
> >right to choose and change one's own name if one wishes is a very
> >important principle. Fundamentally human rights should not be
> >decided on by compromises, especially since those with whom the
> >compromises would be made in this case have no greater standing or
> >legitimacy in the argument than a prejudice against persons with
> >rare forms of sexual identity.
>
> I have never considered basic human rights to include an expectation
> that people will respect anything about you or your lifestyle. Basic
> human rights are food, shelter, life, liberty and the pursuit of
> happiness.
>
> MAF: Food? Do I really have to work to feed you? It is nice if a state
> provides such a guarantee, but I would hardly call it an absolute human
> right. When others do not have enough to eat one would hardly be able to
> claim food from them as amoral right - but one can always claim a
> *basic* right, I think. But to have people respect who you are, in terms
> of your name, sex, choice of religious belief, and reality as a human
> being with a moral conscience to satisfy and the possibility to suffer
> if mistreated, yes those things fundamental to human dignity in society
> can always be expected and should always be offered. People have a right
> to control the things most intimate to themselves and most necessary for
> their human dignity. If one's sexual identity and name are not among
> those things, it is hard to say what is. Isn't it?
>
> And if you call a person by a wrong-gendered name according to his/her
> understanding and preference, knowing that this will be considered an
> insulting denial of his/her right to be accepted as him/her-self, then
> the person so treated will have every natural reason to consider you
> rude and lacking in fundamental respect towards other human beings. In
> other words, a thoughtless and aggresssive person, whom society would be
> better off without. I would not like to give people a just reason to
> consider me so, and I am surprised that you would.
> _________________
>
> It does not include having people buy into your
> lifestyle.
>
> MAF: I am inclined to think that the transsexual whose lifestyle you do
> not "buy into" is perfectly willing to buy into yours and treat you
> socially according to your preferred gender. Do you not feel a sense of
> reciprocity and mutual fairness?
> __________________
>
> Choosing and changing one's name is your right, and I
> believe that this is what this edict is saying. If you choose your
> name in the "real world" and choose to live by that name, then you
> should be able to prove to NovaRoma what that name and your chosen
> (or lived) gender is.
>
> MAF: Why? I assume that Nova Roma accepted your name with no proof
> except your own word. Why treat others with less trust? Unless an acr of
> discrimination is being made to treat some with mistrust and others not
> because of their sexual-minority status.
>
> This is not a compromise, and not against what
> I, and most people, feel are human rights.
>
> MAF: About "most" people I cannot affirm or deny, but I see that you
> never thought of it that way. However, I think that if something
> happened to your brain chemistry or psyche and you suddenly felt that
> you were subjectively clearly and unmistakably male, you might indeed
> free a very intuitive sense of outrage if others did not accept this
> change once you had accepted it yourself. I think it deserves thought
> and a little bit of imaginative exploration so that we appreciate other
> people's problems, even when they are very different from our own
> problems and even from our own ideas of common sense.
>
> To me, not giving at least passive acceptance to the gender someone
> obviously wishes to present him/her-self as is simply incredibly rude
> and bad manners - a causing of offence for no good reason.
> ____________________________
>
> I do not feel that what
> is happening is a prejudice against any person, and I am puzzled by
> your categorization of this as a "rare form of sexual identity". I
> have read all of the previous posts, and cannot understand why you
> feel this is the case.
>
> MAF: I am sorry, but I do not quite see what you don't understand. I
> guess we just went past each other here. What I meant was that most
> people have a genital sex and a brain sex (or a physical sex and a
> mental sex - depending on your bio-psychological theory) that are the
> same. The people who have a difference between the two sexes are
> statistically infrequent in human populations. That is why I phrased it
> as I did.
>

Obviously human rights have yet no clear-cut definition in our minds,
some use the US declaration instead of the universal declaration, others
their own feeling of what they should be. When will we proclam a NovaRoman
declaration :) ?

> >5. Although I completely agree that we do not want people to regard
> >Nova Roma as a rôle-playing game, the understandable desire to
> >simply play a Roman rôle and the much less common desire to play a
> >rôle in the opposite sex just for fun (?) should not be confused. I
> >see no reason why Roman-oriented RPG-ers would have any special
> >attraction to changing their sex here, even if they might feel a
> >natural attraction to do Roman RPG-ing here. This is a non-issue,
> >and always has been.
>
> I am in agreement with the above view, but feel that the standards
> should apply here as in other places. If the person who wishes to
> change their gender had signed up with that gender here, then it
> would be a non-issue. If they feel that by signing up under their
> chosen gender they would be lying, as I have heard stated in other
> posts, then what is their point? By trying to change their name now,
> they are forcing an issue that they are not the gender they are
> saying they are, thereby either stating that they are living a lie in
> the Real world, or they are trying to force a lie on Nova Roma. Which
> is it?
>
> MAF: The outside world is often full of uncomprehending people,
> stupidities and injustices - not just about this issue, but about many.
> People may be confused, people may bend to psychological, social or
> governmental pressures - many things can happen that prevent a
> straightforward line of behaviour such as one might desire. Transsexual
> people giving their true mental sex, whenever and wherever they do it
> and whatever they may do elsewhere are obviously not trying to lie, but
> to tell the truth. And if they sometimes say the opposite according to
> their bodily configuration because they think that is what sombody else
> wants to hear and it could be justified too (by their outward
> appearance), why call that a "lie"?
>
> If we can agree on terms that adequately deal with the reality, we can
> get true information without ambiguity and without accusing anyone of
> lying. An application form with places for "physical sexuality" and
> "personal/social gender" would get all the information anyone would want
> to receive or provide without problems. The whole problem arises when we
> try to make those two differnt things only one for that segment of
> humanity in whom they are bio-psychologically divided.
>
> M. Apollonius Formosanus,
> Aedilis Plebeius

I totally agree with those statements from Formosanus.

Manius Villius Limitanus

Subject:	[novaroma] Appointment of Legatus
From:	V_Praetoria@--------
Date:	Wed, 18 Apr 2001 13:37:57 -0000

Avete Comiltones,
I, Pontius Sejanus Marius, propraetor of America Austroccidentalis,
due hereby appoint one Antonius Corvus Septimius, as Legatus of the
Arizona territory within the province. I believe his skills and
enthusiasm will be an asset not only to my province, but to all of
Nova Roma herself.

Pontius Sejanus Marius
Propraetor, America Austrrocidentalis

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Roman environmentalism
From:	Gaia Natalina Casca <gaianatalinacasca@-------->
Date:	Wed, 18 Apr 2001 07:14:40 -0700 (PDT)

Salve Helena Galeria
>
> PS I am actually not a Wiccan but I am a witch -
> what is the Latin for that?
> Something on the lines of sorciere?
>
While I can't answer the question, I felt called to
respond to the sentiment, from one witch to another.
I had a brief sojourn among Wicca, but currently
practice a much more eclectic craft. Nice to make
your acquaintance...

=====
Gaia Natalina Casca
Fremont, California

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Computer Associates commercial
From:	"Marcus Darius Ursus" <marcus_darius@-------->
Date:	Wed, 18 Apr 2001 09:04:19 -0600

Salve

Have you tried www.adcritic.com?


Marcus Darius Ursus
Paterfamilias Daria
Legatus for the Regio of Athabasca
Provincia of Canada Occidentalis
--------------------------
marcus_darius@--------
Bellerophon@--------
ICQ: 83821138


>From: Patrick Ferguson <pvitruviusiulianus@-------->
>Reply-To: novaroma@--------
>To: novaroma@--------
>Subject: RE: [novaroma] Re: Computer Associates commercial
>Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 16:46:24 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
>--- Marcus Papirius Justus <papirius@-------->
>wrote:
> > At 04:26 PM 17/04/2001 +1000, you wrote:
> > >Anyone found a copy on the net yet ???
> >
> >
> > http://www.cai.com/hellotomorrow/
> >
> > mpj
> > (if it's out there, I can find it)
> >
> >
>
>Unfortunately, this does not work for me. It says
>that there is something wrong with the sight or it may
>be congested. Is there anywhere else I could see it?
>
>Cum magna gratia,
>
>Patricius Viturvius Iulianus,
>
>Civis Novae Romae.
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
>http://auctions.yahoo.com/


_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: The name-change issue
From:	"Nick R. Ramos Jr." <nramos@-------->
Date:	Wed, 18 Apr 2001 15:22:58 -0000

Marius Cornelius Scipio M. Appoloni Formosane S.P.D.

I'd like to ask a couple of questions for my own edification:

--- In novaroma@--------, "M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@--------> wrote:
> M. Apollonius Formosanus Aedilis Plebeius
> L. Cornelio Sullae Felici Censori Salutem Plurimam Dicit
>
> It seems like old times again to square off with you over the
issue
> of one of your edicta, and I cannot help but feel a certain
affection
> for you bred of the familiarity of the experience. Please believe me
> when I say that I do not want to cause any defeat to you because of
any
> personal animosity; I simply want a class of people who have been
made
> to hurt to no longer have to hurt because they will in future be
treated
> fairly and with humanity. In that I see the good of Nova Roma as
well.

This particular statement intrigues me: what class? As far as I know,
this entire debate centers around one citizen that is unhappy with
the way we structure names. One. Perhaps I missed something in the
past few weeks, but this seems to me like political rhetoric design
to elicit a positive response, not like an honest attempt to solve a
real problem.

> Your indefatigable work on behalf of this Respublica as Censor is
> something that none of your detractors can deny. And yet the
necessity
> for a Censor representing all of us here to make *all kinds* of
> Roman-oriented people feel welcome among us is also clear.
>
> Permit me to comment on your words:
>
> Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 18:56:10 -0700
> From: "L. Corn--------s Sulla F--------" <al--------us@-------->
> Subject: Re: Re: The name-change issue
>
> Ave,
>
> I am a magistrate of Nova Roma, I have taken an oath of office and
in my
>
> opinion as a magistrate of Nova Roma here is my humble opinion:
>
> I do not like it. As has been pointed out a number of times on this
> list
> people can legally change their names to "President of the United
States
> of
> America." This whole issue is not just a name change issue..but it
is
> also
> a gender issue.
>
> MAF: Well, as I understand it, yes and no. I have never insisted
that we
> could not keep a record of citizens' genital sexuality if there were
> some use in doing so. Therefore what I, at least, am concerned with
is
> simply allowing *name genders* to reflect the sense of sexual
> self-identity of the person using the name.
>
> As you never tired of pointing out before (but have not respected in
> your own addressing of Marius), Nova Roma citizens already have the
> right of using whatever gender identity they want in their names
> unofficially. The only thing I would like to see is that this be
> recognised in persons' official names as well. If there were still a
> register of gross physical or macronational sexual identity, I do
not
> see that very much would be lost from your point of view, whereas
not
> being forced on certain occasions to use a name gendered in a way
> offensive to them would mean a very great deal personally to any
> transsexual people among us. Forcing them to do so is a humiliation,
> just as it would be if you or I were forced to use female names on
> official occasions because of somebody else's prejudice coupled with
> power.
> _______

EH? Why am I humiliating someone by calling them by their given names
for official purposes? Let me give you an example that I think may be
applicable here: In my personal journey through life, I had the
occassion to deal with several transgendered individuals. The most
clear-cut case was an individual who had been born male, and his
given name was Luis Angel. He underwent a sex change operation, and
legally changed her name to Angela. However, many of us who had known
him/her prior to the operation continued to call him/her Luis. This
did not offend this individual one whit - in fact, she considered it
a
sign of affection, since only her old friends called her that. Luis
is
most definitely a masculine name in Spanish, nonne? This issue boils
down to the beliefs and feelings of one person, not a class, not a
group. If we are to further debate this, let us do so on clear and
level grounds - not playing on voter sympathies. I think it is far
more patronizing to Lucius Marius to say "poor thing, you need us to
defend your KIND from these <insert your favorite hate group here>"
than to say "Lucius, I understand how you particularly feel about
this
but I may not agree with you on this issue".

>
> By changing the Gender on your macronation of residence you
> are there showing to the world that you value Nova Roman citizenship
> equally
> with your macronational citizenship.
>
> MAF: The reasoning here seems unclear. If one can get along quite
> happily using one's social gender of choice without changing one's
> theoretical legal gender in the macronational world, why and how
does
> changing it (a nuisance) show respect for Nova Roman citizenship?
One
> might equally well say that by changing it in Nova Roma before
bothering
> to do it in the macronation, one is showing even more respect for
one's
> Nova Roman citizenship!
> ______
>
> Personally, I had no problem with the
> first "gender" and I compromised on the revision that is currently
law
> in
> Nova Roma, and has been for about 10 months now. I do not see a
reason
> to
> change it. Nor to continue to compromise on it now. To do so will
> cheapen
> Nova Roman citizenship to the point where a man can be a man and a
woman
> can
> be a man.
>
> MAF: Since some people are transsexual and some are bisexual, there
> *are* certainly cases where a "woman" (in some sense) can be a
"man"
(in
> some sense) and a "man" (in some sense) can be a "woman" (in some
> sense). This is just a matter of scientifically-confirmed fact. It
is

Can you please cite which behavioral or sexuality studies support
this statement? As a scientist, I think you're again using science in
the name of political cant here. Bisexuality is an expression of
sexual behavior preference where sexual contact with both one's own
sex and the opposite sex are acceptable and pleasurable. In fact,
most
bisexuals will not "roleplay" oppsite sex behaviors, and many will
show a strong gender identification with their "genital" gender (see
Kinsey, et alia). With all due respect, saying that something is
"scientifically proven" requires that you be able to show what
science supports your statement. Otherwise, your argument is one of
assertion of authority and a very weak one at that.

> not good to ignore facts about the world just because we do not like
> them. I do not like this state of affairs either, but would like all
> people to be "normal" sexually, since I suppose that everyone would
be

Define "normal" - for homosexuals, their sexual personae are normal;
for heterosexuals, the same applies - for transsexuals, such is also
the case. I think you are being inconsistent here, sir.

> happier that way. But I recognise that denying the facts about the
real
> world will subject real human beings to real frustration, insult,
and
> mental pain and suffering that they do not deserve just because of
not
> fitting our preferences. We owe it to them to refrain from making
their
> problems greater than they are naturally. That is simple courtesy
and
> human decency.
> __________
>
> Our issue in Nova Roma regarding names and gender is intertwined.
It is
> an
> undeniable fact. Pranomens, Nomens, and 99% of the Cognomens
reflect
> this
> identification.
>
> MAF: I completely agree. But intertwining gross physical sexual
> characteristics or some other nation's theoretical legal opinion
about
> some Nova Roma citizen's sex is not necessitated by the simple fact
that
> Latin names have grammatical gender. That additional complication
has
> been artificially introduced, and the introduction has caused
personal
> chagrin and public controversy.
> _________
>
> My question still stands, "Why should Nova Roma cater to people who
are
> not
> willing to do the same things on their macronational citizenship?"
>
> MAF: My counterquestion is this: "What is the real advantage or
> necessity to Nova Roma of forcing people to officially use a gender
they
> do not feel describes their real selves? Or forcing them to
undertake
> legal procedures in the outside world that they feel no necessity to
> undertake on their own merits for life in the outside world?"
> ____________
>

The real necessity may be a legal one, given that we at present are
incorporated as a Non-Profit Corp. in a macronation; and the legal
liabilities that can arise from false personae or from misleading
names can be serious. Look at all the cases of people representing
themselves as that which they are not and dragging their ISP's and
other groups into their legal problems. That being said - I
personally care not one whit what name any civus of our Res Publica
calls him or her self. That's why I agree on the premise that the
name
change edict applies only to the LEGAL ROMAN NAME; everything else is
off limits.

BTW, I consider this list to be an official communications media, so
perhaps I am technically in violation of the edict when I call Lucius
Marius Peregrinus by that name here.

> Now dont say costs....because upon investigation most counties have
> petitions one can file to minimize those costs. In California its a
> single
> form about 2 pages in length.
>
> I have spent countless hours, spent financial resources to try to
help
> validiate Nova Roma into something real. And, at the same time try
to
> pass
> laws to help that process along by building procedures where there
wasnt
>
> any. I will continue to do so, but this compromise edict doesn't
help
> validate this. For what it does is raise more questions....for
example
> just
> off the top of my head....What if someone's name was President of
the
> United
> States of America, what gender do we use then? Or even more
> realistically....if someone had a name that could go for both
genders?
>
> MAF: It is interesting that in America - a great nation - you can
adopt
> just about any name you wish, even the most bizarre, as you
suggest,
and
> the nation is not endangered. I might note in passing that
"President"
> in English and "Praeses" in Latin can both be used for man or woman
-
> why is that a problem? I myself have in another post mentioned that
> English names such as "Pat" (as an official name, not a nickname)
might
> make one wonder if a person having such a name and wishing to change
> his/her gender in Nova Roma would have to change the name or not. I
> think this points up the uselessness of having to do things in the
> external world just to change the gender of one's name in Nova Roma.
> _______________
>
> I do apologize to you, the People of Nova Roma for continuing to
clog
> our
> main list with this issue. I have tried not to post on this
> topic....but, I was
> invited "out of my hole," by Lucia Maria.
>
> MAF: There is never any need to apologise to the responsible
citizens
> who realise that politics may require discussing things at *great*
> length sometimes - even when it becomes boring. People's basic
rights to
> control their own names and identities are a topic that merits the
most
> serious of discussions, and as we try to work out a compromise and
> undertake a democratic vote to resolve this issue at last (if
possible),
> we should be sure to give it adequate discussion - hopefully more
> reasoned and comprehensive than hitherto, and hopefully more
convergent.
>
> For my part the basic affair is simple: People exist who have a
> difference between their obvious bodily sexual characteristics and
the
> way they naturally feel in terms of their sense of self. This is
> inconvenient, but it is not a crime and not morally significant.

This can stir up a real hornet's nest for some. I agree it is not a
crime, but dismissing it as morally insignificant is a mistake, I
think. I personally have absolutely no problem with it, but there are
those among us who may think differently. To some, this particular
state of affairs may have some very serious moral significance. To
dismiss that lightly would be irresponsible of us, in my opinion.

>Forcing
> them to treat their bodily gender as the real one against their
will
and
> sense of self causes them mental pain and humiliation. Courtesy and
> humanity demand that we make it as easy as possible to present
> themselves in accordance with their personal sense of identity, and
that
> we do so with as little red tape and as few special conditions as
> humanly possible. By so doing we shall show Nova Roma to be an
> enlightened and fair-minded nation.
>

Quod natura non fecit...
What Nature does not make, I cannot fabricate. We're not forcing
anyone to anything (to date, I still don't see the lictors dragging
off any of us to the Carcer because we disagree on this!). All we are
doing is codifying some legal formality to protect our Res Publica
from possible legal liabilities. We have two opposing views, and a
necessity to validate one or the other through votes. Nothing more,
nothing less. In fact, those accused of being narrow-minded and
unfair have been much more restrained and tolerant here than what has
been my experience in my macronation! Perhaps we are a little bit
enlightened after all.

I hope that we can take this to a Comitia, a contio, a Division, or
whatever is necessary to finally decide this matter. Enough debate
has already occurred on this - let us move forward and decide. If I
were Lucius Marius, I think I would like to get this matter resolved
one way or another by now.

Optime vale, et Venus nos ament!
Marius Cornelius Scipio
Aedilis Curulis Nova Romani

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: The name-change issue
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Wed, 18 Apr 2001 11:36:58 -0400

Salve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nick R. Ramos Jr. [mailto:nramos@--------]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 11:23
>
> I hope that we can take this to a Comitia, a contio, a Division, or
> whatever is necessary to finally decide this matter. Enough debate
> has already occurred on this - let us move forward and decide. If I
> were Lucius Marius, I think I would like to get this matter resolved
> one way or another by now.

Just to clarify, this issue _is_ being taken to the comitia, in the next
vote, probably early May. That's why this whole contentious issue was
brought up again; to give folks a chance to re-visit the question before it
was voted upon.

Next year in the Forum!

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Re: The name-change issue
From:	Gaia Natalina Casca <gaianatalinacasca@-------->
Date:	Wed, 18 Apr 2001 09:09:49 -0700 (PDT)

I am not one to jump into debates I have not been
involved in from the beginning, but reading all of the
postings on this issue in the last week or so, I find
myself alternately angry and amused, and decided to
drop in my own two cents, for whatever they are worth
in this forum.

I realize most of you do not know me, in fact I've
hardly had real conversation with any of you, and
while I do not wish to begin by causing any further
animosity toward me or anyone else, I do feel there
are some issues which should be looked at...and I may
house my opinions in pretty words, but pretty is can
still be bullish and obstinent!

Okay, to begin with...my understanding of this issue
is as follows (please feel free to correct me if I am
misunderstanding things)...We have one citizen who is
physically female but who prefers, for whatever
personal reason, to be addressed in the masculine form
of the name chosen. We have had instances where this
wish was not fulfilled. We have a request to change
the official Roman name of record for this citizen (I
am not clear who actually made this request, or if one
actually exists...I assume it does, else I am not sure
why we are challenging the existing law), which brings
into question the legalities of such action and the
rewording of the articles allowing the changing of
names.

We have arguements on both sides of the issue. These
arguements range from personal preference and
sexuality issues to personal affront and
legalities/consequences. There are issues of whether
or not this single individual warrants all of this
attention to the matter at hand, or if this individual
represents a population of people who may be awaiting
the outcome of this debate, or who may (or may not)
join Nova Roma in the future.

The following is my opinion regarding all of this:

This is certainly only one member of our organization,
however it is also a person, with real feelings and
needs. I see no reason why we, as an organization,
can not investigate the best way to serve those needs.
If it is through this law change, so be it. However,
it should also be noted that this single individual is
also a part of a group outside of this organization,
and there is nothing to say that we will not get more
citizens with this same order of issues. Better to
deal with it now, then wait until it is a crises.

As far as I can see, this is not a sexuality or sexual
preference issue, but there are many who will read it
that way. Does that mean that we need to deal with
that issue as well? I'm not sure, but we should
definately start thinking about it. If we are going
about recreating the best of ancient Rome, while
including the best of today's philosophy, science,
medicine, etc, should we not be thinking about this in
the broader sense as well, and applying a modern
understanding to gender and sexuality issues to our
governing orders?

As a part of a real life community of friends who
range on the scale of sexual preference from straight
to gay to bi to poly, I see a place for great
diversity, as well as a chance for a group of people
whose macronations have largely overlooked,
marginalized or persecuted them to belong somewhere
where they are accepted not just as a token or an
abstract idea, but embraced whole-heartedly as part of
the society from the get-go.



=====
Gaia Natalina Casca
Fremont, California

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

Subject:	[novaroma] The name-change issue
From:	cassius622@--------
Date:	Wed, 18 Apr 2001 12:23:40 EDT

Salvete,

The new discussion of the Name Change Issue no doubt means different things
to most of us. For some it is perhaps a wearisome issue being beaten to death
- for others a charged issue of vital social importance. This new discussion
over the past few days *is* important, so that the issue may properly be
brought up for popular vote and settled by ALL of Nova Roma.

I do not believe it will be possible for all of us to agree on a single
decision for this issue. However a majority vote is certainly possible and it
is because of this that there will be a Comitia Centuriata vote. There is
also the possibility of compromise on this issue, which might well be a way
for us to reach at least some accord.

I personally find the spirit of Concordia evident in the compromise proposed
by Flavius Vedius Germanicus. It takes the needs of both "sides" seriously,
and proposes a straightforward solution. In my opinion it is a workable
middle way in this issue and I plan to vote for it if (and when) it comes
into Comitia vote.

No doubt debate on this issue will continue until a formal vote is completed.
I have no desire to stifle that discussion, but do hope that we can keep it
"a" topic of debate rather than *the* topic of debate. There is more going
on in Nova Roma than this one situation. We won't make things easier for
ourselves if we ignore all other current business and normal interaction to
deal with it. :)

Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Consul


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[novaroma] Fwd: Re: Festival Submission
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001 03:42:11 -0000

>Salvete Omnes:

Seeing as most others have published their Cerealis Festival submissions, I
decided I would do the same.

Bene valete,
Pompeia Cornelia


>
>
>
>
>>THE LIFE OF VIDI
>>>
>>>A White late model V-6 charioteer moves more swiftly than usual past the
>>>last fragments of Roman Civilization before entering the Subura ....past
>>>the Plaza de Pallas by Palladius, past Senator Venator's Fast Foods, past
>>>Clodia's Garum Emporium and Deli, and past a few other unmentionable
>>>places best to just drive past.....and quickly at that.
>>>
>>>Ovidia Cornelia, Private Investigator, was tired after a grueling day and
>>>wanted to get home "soonly", and out of the rat race. After reaching her
>>>modest insula, she parked her car and climbed the three flights of stairs
>>>(she hated elevators), opened her door and entered her
>>>flat........Ahh.....being able to just sit, put her feet up and enjoy the
>>>silence!! She lit an Hispanic El Producto and stuck it between her
>>>teeth. Hades, if the famous movie star Demi Moravia could smoke'em, so
>>>could she. Our private eye puffed away and proceeded to blow
>>>well-confugurated O's into the atmosphere.
>>>
>>>a 38-year-old, rather scrawny, short, redheaded freckle-faced Patrician
>>>from a wealthy family, "Vidi" as you would call her,that is if you didn't
>>>want to risk spending time in the emergency room, spent about 15 years
>>>going from career to career after university. A short stint in the
>>>Military, newspaper writing, fine arts......loved the arts but never
>>>really found her niche. Her paintings showed some promise; her work was
>>>proudly displayed on the walls of her Insula and her office, located just
>>>a few blocks away. (Rent was cheap in the Subura..well, cheapER.) Vidi
>>>eventually concluded that the thing she knew how to do best was to stick
>>>her nose in other peoples' business. And she enjoyed it and was damned
>>>good at it! So, she regarded her present position as the perfect career.
>>>A *calling* of sorts.
>>>
>>>Unfortunately, not all of her family agreed with her. Several of her
>>>sisters were astonished at