Forum Romanum


Subject:	[novaroma] HELVETIA annexa Germaniae 2
From:	"Prometheus" <fresco@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Apr 2001 09:09:09 +0300

Marcus Prometheus omnibus civibus SPD

I am the one who wrote for freedom of choice.

This is the text of the debate in the SENATE of NOVA ROMA
by which the annexion was voted.

NO LEGAL PROVISION WAS MADE FOR FREEDOM OF CHOICE.

As you can read here under, just one of the senators expressed his "HOPES"
in the same sense I proposed then (and which are contained in my post sent
again now to the list under the title of HELVETIA annexa Germaniae 1
Bene Valete.
Marcus Prometheus Decius Golia

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

Results of Voting on the November Senate Agenda
Proxies for A. Gryllus Graecus and M. Iunius were cast by L. Cornelius
Sulla
Proxies for M. Iucundia Flavia were cast by Q. Fabius Maximus
[..........]
Item the Fourth.
Incorporation of Switzerland into Province Germania.
Shall we do this?
L. Cornelius Sulla: Yes
A. Gryllus Graecis: Yes
M. Iunius: Yes
C. Aelius Ericius: Yes. * If there is later any objection from Italian,
French or Romany Swiss, we can adjust borders and/or name at that time.
I assume it will be considered the Regio of Helvitia.
M. Cassius Julianus: YES.
Patricia Cassia: Uti rogas, though I wish we had been able to hear from
more actual
Helvetian Citizens before making this choice.
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: ABSTINEO.
M. Minucius Audens: YES (Vti Rogas)!
C. Tullius Cicero: Vti rogas, I don't see the combination as a problem.
N. Moravius Vado: ABSTINEO/NO VOTE/ABSTAIN Although no French- or
Italian-speaking citizens have objected (I admit I do not know whether
there are any to object), there may be objections in future. Also, as
there is no one in this House to speak for the particular interests of
the cives of Gallia or Italia, I feel unable to support this motion. And
could we give the regio a more Roman name, like Helvetia, please?
Q. Fabius Maximus: Uti Rogas This will set the record straight.
M. Iucundia Flavia: VTI ROGAS Though what about all the French speaking
citizens? When I was there I thought they made up a third of the
population. Do they really want to be part of Germania?
M. Marcius Rex: UTI ROGAS
T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes yes
L Equitius Cincinnatus: Vti rogas (Yes)
M. Octavius Germanicus: VTI ROGAS. Yes, but if a French or
Italian-speaking citizen of Helvetica prefers to be considered part of
Gallia or Italia, I hope the censors would allow that.
YES 16; NO O; AB 2;
ITEM 4 PASSES

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Subject:	[novaroma] HELVETIA annexa Germaniae 1
From:	"Prometheus" <fresco@-------->
Date:	Thu, 12 Apr 2001 09:10:50 +0300

I am the one who wrote for freedom of choice.
Here under is my original message.
YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

----- Original Message -----
From: <LSergAust@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, 28 November, 2000 3:02 AM
Subject: [novaroma] November Senate session & agenda announced

> Salvete quirites!
> The Consules have called the Senate into session to consider the
> following matters: > (I quote)
> >Item the Fourth.
> >Incorporation of Switzerland into Province Germania.

Marcus Prometheus omnibus civibus SPD

I appeal to the senators and magistrates to avoid annexing the entire
territories of multinational states (like Switzerland) to a single
bordering province.

This is not historically correct and is not respectful of prospect CIVES
and is not liberal at all.

Prospect Swiss cives from the French speaking part (the western third of
Switzerland) or from the smaller Italian speaking part (canton Ticino) most
probably would prefer to be "annexed" to the bordering province of their
language, Gallia or Italia.

BUT also in these cases considering that we are a VIRTUAL STATE, and not a
state controlling a real territory, we can afford very easily to be even
more liberal and to respect EACH single citizen preference.

This can be made easily and without any problem:
Let's us suppose a the citizen doesn't reside any more in his original
canton
and lives in a canton of another language:
For instance a Swiss citizen born in Geneva from a French speaking family,
let's say monsieur Dupont de Geneva resides now in Basel, a German speaking
canton.
Perhaps he joined originally Provincial Gallia but he also might be
permitted (and without problem) to join later Provincia Germania if and
when he hears that in nearby Baden Wuttenberg or in Bavaria there is more
Nova Roman activity.

In conclusion, I propose:

1) More correct theoretical attribution of territories along linguistic
cultural lines

2) To lessen the importance of borders:
The above attribution of territories MIGHT be done most reasonably and
carefully as possible, BUT also (to avoid dramatizing), it might absolutely
be only an indication and not a constraint for prospect cives which might be
free to join the Province of their preference, without being
bureaucratically constrained to anything against their likes.

3) If the two above are not possible, I would even suggest do not to
attribute any multinational state to any neighbor but to leave single
citizens free to join the Nova Roman Province of their choice.

I conclude affirming that cultural allegiances pass mostly through the
hearts and minds of people and do not follow very much borders traced on
the ground, and much less follow borders traced or copied from casual
realities, especially in the virtual World.

Vivat Libertas.

Valete
Marcus Prometheus
Italian and Novo Roman writing from Dacia Romana.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Perfect World
From:	britil@--------
Date:	Fri, 13 Apr 2001 23:27:41 -0000

--- Salvete Lucius Mauricius Procopious et omnes,

Hail sir Hail. This is what I have been trying to say in my posts. I
agree we must become financially solvent for the sake of our future
and whatever future ventures we might wish to pursue. I also agree we
need to examine in detail just what part of the ancient practices we
wish to incorporate into Nova Roma to gain these funds. True we are a
brand new society and there are many avenues we can travel to reach
our goals, but will these avenues uphold the virtues we hold dear? I
wish to be one of the first to say if the call goes out for people to
be on one of these committees I proudly raise my hand to help.
Marcus Flavius
In the service of Roma

In novaroma@--------, "Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <procopious@h...>
wrote:
> Salvete Gaia Natalina et omnes,
>
> Warning: Long Post
> you may wish to save this for spare time or delete if
uninterested.The short
> version is this: I suggest the formation of committees that would
research
> ancient practices in subjects like financial practices, education,
health
> care, civil rights, et cetera. These committees would form
suggestions as to
> how we can adapt ancient practices to Nova Roma in the present
while trying
> to honor the spirit of our cives drive for a "perfect world" .
>
> I think the comments you made about seeking a perfect world merit
further
> discussion:
>
> "We may not live in a perfect world,
> > but (if) we are working at building toward that goal
> > (that of a perfect world)"
>
> {The () on "if" was added by me.}
> In order to avoid some of the extreme emotions some issues raise I
would
> like to consider our "perfect world" in the area of finances rather
than
> other areas.
> My question is this, what do we think is a perfect world? I think
we all
> agree it should be Roman. At least for us. But what about the rest?
> Obviously, there is some disagreement about what is and is not a
civil right
> so let's leave that alone. (By the way I may have access to a
mediator if
> anyone thinks that would help the yelling on this list.) What about
> financial practices and institutions? Now that we have currency and
are
> talking about taxes would be a good time to begin this discussion.
As I read
> the recent wonderful post about municipal officers, I noticed one
officials
> job was to ensure grain and other foodstuffs were in supply to feed
the
> cives. Who paid for that food? Was it the government. Will we use
a similar
> system? I'm not suggesting the Government feed and care for us. I'm
pointing
> out we need to start talking about how we adapt past practices to
the
> present.
> As much as I would like to advocate a system that ensures wealth
for all, I
> don't think that would be in our best interest. Will Durrant in "Our
> Oriental Heritage" says something like; "When a civilization is
forming it
> tends toward communism as an equal sharing of resources ensures the
survival
> of the group. When extra resources are obtainable, some individuals
will
> seek more than they need while the majority will be happy with
their lot and
> the civilization transforms to capitalism or dissolves."
> In my opinion capitalism may be a dead end street as well. It seems
to be a
> financial form of military conquest. Once you have the world where
do you
> go? According to Chaos theory (I'm paraphrasing this from another
list I'm
> on) Institutions that attempt to maintain the status quo are doomed
to be
> torn apart by inside and outside forces.
> It sounds to me we are destined to be competitive beings. How can
we utilize
> the practices of our forefathers to ensure we have a financial
system that
> allows enough competition and room for growth that it survives and
yet fits
> our hopes for a perfect world?
> These questions could easily be altered to address health care,
public
> works, et cetera.
> As a corporation we have the opportunity to meet many of these
needs once we
> have the resources. We don't have to wait for sovereign territory,
but we
> will need to grow and gain financial strength. In time we could
offer health
> insurance, banking (I've heard it's relatively easy to start a
credit union,
> but that might be relative to finding the fountain of youth :) )
education
> (Some of which is already occurring) et cetera. How can we adapt
ancient
> Roman practices in those areas to Nova Roma? Would it be wise to
form
> committees to examine some of these issues to research practices in
antiqua
> and offer suggestions as to how this can be adapted in the present.
We might
> have to find volunteers for the civil rights committee at sword
point unless
> some of you like to brawl. :) Hopefully the other committees will
find much
> concordia if formed. In closing I would like to stress the
importance of
> these Committees looking very hard at our perceptions of a perfect
world.
> Like the idea of sharing wealth equally, many ideas of perfection
simply
> don't work. Some ideas held by our ancestors may seem cruel or
unfair but in
> reality they built the greatest empire known to man.
>
> Lucius Mauricius Procopious
> Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
> (This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> procopious@--------
> ICQ# 83516618
> *America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
> http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
> * The Gens Mauricia
> http://www.geocities.com/procopious
>
> "Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that
the
> affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing
the reason
> for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause
is easy
> to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every
mortal will
> decide for himself according to his taste."
> -Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died
c.560s]
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gaia Natalina Casca" <gaianatalinacasca@-------->
> To: <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 11:29 AM
> Subject: [novaroma] Taxes & Other Matters
>
>
> > Greetings all...I'm still trying to catch my breath
> > and catch up on all the "goings-on", but I thought I
> > should comment when and where I feel lead to.
> >
> > Please forgive if I jump into an issue that has been
> > discussed to death, or re-visit ideas that have
> > already been brought up, as I've only been able to
> > partake of the list's mailings for the last few days,
> > and may have missed something...
> >
> > On the idea of taxes...When I first joined Nova Roma
> > in July of last year, I was rather surprised that
> > there were no membership fees or taxes. It seems to
> > me that this is a fairly logical idea, provided that
> > it could be handled fairly and with an eye to
> > inclusion rather than exclusion. Having joined while
> > in a relatively inferior financial position than the
> > one I enjoy today, I would have been unable to join
> > had there been any sizeable fee to do so. I would be
> > against any measure that would leavy a burdeon at
> > application for citizenship.
> >
> > That said however, I would certainly support the idea
> > of supporting our nation in some other fashion,
> > perhaps in the way of a yearly (or whatever other
> > increment that is seen as fitting) tax based upon
> > duration of citizenship (thereby those with the most
> > committment to the group are supporting it
> > financially, while those with only cursory interest
> > are allowed to remain interested without having to
> > invest money they might not have).
> >
> > On the issue of gender, names and sexuality (as
> > implied by the issue at hand)...it would seem to me
> > that we, as a micronation striving to live up to the
> > best of Roman life and divorce ourselves from the
> > practices that were less than in keeping with the
> > ideals of that same society, we should indeed embrace
> > those whose lives have led them to express themselves
> > in ways that differ with their biological identity.
> > The recognition of a person by the gender identity
> > which best suits them seems to be the only way to go.
> >
> >
> > In a perfect world, we are who we are and our
> > government, families and friends accept it
> > unquestioningly. stumbling
> > blocks out of the way from the get-go, rather than
> > dragging them with us for miles before we realize
> > we've fettered ourselves with them?
> >
> > Lastly, to those whose Gens has been increased through
> > birth or adoption, and those who have been appointed,
> > elected or are taking vacation (which I wish I could
> > be doing!) congratulations!
> >
> > Happy Friday all...(sorry for the long post)
> >
> >
> > =====
> > Gaia Natalina Casca
> > Fremont, California
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
> > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] HELVETIA annexa Germaniae 1
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Apr 2001 21:19:53 -0400

Salvete

Personally, I don't see any reason not to create a Provincia Helvetia. With
13 cives, it's certainly large enough (Thule provincia has 13 cives, for
example). I think the proposal to divide modern Switzerland between Gaul,
Germania, and Italia is doable as well, but might place a bit of a strain on
the Censors; but hey, if they were given a list of which cantons belonged to
which provincia, it could be workable. Comment from the Censors?

In regards to the idea that individual cives should be allowed to choose
their own provincia depending on their personal preferance I say "nonsense".
Provinces are geographic entities. When you change your address, your
province changes. Simple as that. They are intended as administrative
entities; a tool to allow our cives to get together. That has been their
purpose since Nova Roma's inception. If we set the precident that people in
Switzerland could pick and choose their provincia, we'd soon end up with
people living in Germany who were "officially" in Boreoccidentalis, or
people physically in Britannia who were "officially" in Australia. Chaos.
One's provincia is simply a function of where one physically lives; it is
not a statement of nationalistic pride; or at least it shouldn't be. What
should matter is that one is a Nova Roman, not a Germanian as opposed to a
Gaulian.

Next year in the Forum!

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
ICQ: 106199729
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] HELVETIA annexa Germaniae 1
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Apr 2001 18:31:55 -0700

Ave,

As one half of the Censors I will comment below:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 6:19 PM
Subject: RE: [novaroma] HELVETIA annexa Germaniae 1

> Salvete
>
> Personally, I don't see any reason not to create a Provincia Helvetia.
With
> 13 cives, it's certainly large enough (Thule provincia has 13 cives, for
> example). I think the proposal to divide modern Switzerland between Gaul,
> Germania, and Italia is doable as well, but might place a bit of a strain
on
> the Censors; but hey, if they were given a list of which cantons belonged
to
> which provincia, it could be workable. Comment from the Censors?

Sulla: Please go easy on the Censors!!! If we create a province of
Helvetia, COOL. I would vote for it as Censor and a Senator. But, lets not
divide it further into zones of influence. That will get too involved and
quite frankly, my knowledge of the Cantons of Switzerland are just not that
extensive. We, the Censors have a difficult enough task just doing our
regular duites. Most provinces in Nova Roma are fashioned on current
political lines, please let us not deviate too much from that practice, for
when perspective citizens apply and they list an address where I dont
understand, it takes extra time and effort for me to properly allocate that
citizen to the correct province.

> In regards to the idea that individual cives should be allowed to choose
> their own provincia depending on their personal preferance I say
"nonsense".
> Provinces are geographic entities. When you change your address, your
> province changes. Simple as that. They are intended as administrative
> entities; a tool to allow our cives to get together. That has been their
> purpose since Nova Roma's inception. If we set the precident that people
in
> Switzerland could pick and choose their provincia, we'd soon end up with
> people living in Germany who were "officially" in Boreoccidentalis, or
> people physically in Britannia who were "officially" in Australia. Chaos.
> One's provincia is simply a function of where one physically lives; it is
> not a statement of nationalistic pride; or at least it shouldn't be. What
> should matter is that one is a Nova Roman, not a Germanian as opposed to a
> Gaulian.

Sulla: I agree completely in this!

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

> Next year in the Forum!
>
> Vale,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul
>
> email: germanicus@--------
> AIM: Flavius Vedius
> ICQ: 106199729
> www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Greetings, from a Psuedo-Newcomer
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Apr 2001 18:48:23 -0700

Salve Gaia Natalina Casca!

We're glad to have you 'back' as it were! Whatever your previous
circumstances, it is fortuitous that you have gone active.
I'm a a refugee from the Bay area myself recently (we moved
back to the Seattle area in March of 2000 after a 2.5 year stint
in San Jose for job reasons.) The bay area is a wonderful
place in many regards, but it's a tough place to make it; especially
if one is used to a quieter atmosphere or one that is not as
outlandishly expensive. (No offence intended to my bay area
brethren; it really is a great place in many ways, and I go
back there often.)

Your interests sound to be many and varied and as you know, there are plenty
of outlets for these interests here. Perhaps you might want to consider
subscribing to the philosophy and religious lists as a start? We can always
use additional perspectives.

Take care and again -welcome!

Bene vale,
Oppius
-----Original Message-----
From: blackuni@-------- [mailto:blackuni@--------]
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 2:35 PM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Greetings, from a Psuedo-Newcomer

<snipped>

I am now safely settled in my own home in the sunny Silicon Valley,
after leaving the El Paso desert, with a new job that requires far
less of my time and many more perks, and am able to once again turn
my attention to pursuits of pleasure.

<snipped>

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Subject:	[novaroma] Cerealis Festival Submissions
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Apr 2001 18:52:15 -0700

Salvete Quiritibus;

Just a quick general note to thank all the respondents that
have taken the time to share their artistic creations with us.
Many of these are excellent indeed!

Normally, I would reply individually to each and every one, but
as an official in the Sodalitas Musarum, I must refrain from doing
so until the contest has officially ended and the votes have
been cast. Suffice it to say for now though that I'm avidly reading
each and every one of them and am enjoying them immensely!
Keep the submissions coming!

Bene valete,
Oppius -Retarius, Sodalitas Musarum

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] HELVETIA annexa Germaniae 1
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Apr 2001 21:58:20 -0400

Salve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: L. Cornelius Sulla Felix [mailto:alexious@--------]
> Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 9:32 PM
>
> But, lets not
> divide it further into zones of influence. That will get too involved and
> quite frankly, my knowledge of the Cantons of Switzerland are just not
that
> extensive.

Is one's canton included in one's mailing address? If so, it would seem a
simple matter to just pluck it out from the Citizenship application and
compare it against a list. Much like the current situation in the United
States...

> We, the Censors have a difficult enough task just doing our
> regular duites. Most provinces in Nova Roma are fashioned on current
> political lines, please let us not deviate too much from that practice,
for
> when perspective citizens apply and they list an address where I dont
> understand, it takes extra time and effort for me to properly allocate
that
> citizen to the correct province.

If I may, the situation in Switzerland could be seen as being quite similar
to that in the United States. After all, we don't have a single Provincia
America. But, if the Censors would feel overburdened by having to look up
which Swiss canton belongs to which province for 1.5% of our cives (13 out
of 849 thusfar) then I might not be opposed to establishing a separate
provincia. On the other hand, I am not sure I like the idea of setting up a
new province every time a dozen-plus cives feels they are being
mis-represented. After all, provincia are only an administrative tool...

Any thoughts? I would especially like to hear from anyone else who might
actually live in Switzerland...

Next year in the Forum!

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
ICQ: 106199729
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Taxes and Audits
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Apr 2001 22:14:10 -0400

Salvete

> -----Original Message-----
> From: lsicinius@-------- [mailto:lsicinius@--------]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 5:54 AM
>
> I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to know what New
> Hampshire's laws require of a NPC regarding reports to members. I
> realize that Nova Roma can pass leges on this matter, but since Nova
> Roman law is limited to banishment a criminal magistrate will care
> little after (s)he milks the treasury. New Hampshire law on the other
> hand may subject him/her to imprisonment which has a greater deterance
> value.

If I may, Nova Roma's Constitution and laws are currently regarded as Nova
Roma Incorporated's corporate bylaws. They thus have legal standing in the
United States and are enforceable under U.S. law.

In any event, even if we do not have laws on the books specifically
outlawing misappropriation of funds, anyone guilty of doing so would be
guilty of at least embezzlement under United States law and would thus be
prosecutable.

Indeed, this would apply to any officer of Nova Roma, including provincial
governors who handle provincial treasuries (which really should be done by
quaestores; one reason that we really need to be considering formally
bonding our quaestors, both elected and appointed).

Next year in the Forum!

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
ICQ: 106199729
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes & Other Matters
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 04:54:39 +0200 (CEST)

Salvete, romani qurites; et salve, Gaia Natalina Casca.

--- Gaia Natalina Casca <gaianatalinacasca@--------> escribi�: >
Greetings all...I'm still trying to catch my breath
> and catch up on all the "goings-on", but I thought I
> should comment when and where I feel lead to.
>
> Please forgive if I jump into an issue that has been
> discussed to death, or re-visit ideas that have
> already been brought up, as I've only been able to
> partake of the list's mailings for the last few days,
> and may have missed something...
>

You are forgiven, as last as I can go...

> On the idea of taxes...When I first joined Nova Roma
> in July of last year, I was rather surprised that
> there were no membership fees or taxes. It seems to
> me that this is a fairly logical idea, provided that
> it could be handled fairly and with an eye to
> inclusion rather than exclusion. Having joined while
> in a relatively inferior financial position than the
> one I enjoy today, I would have been unable to join
> had there been any sizeable fee to do so. I would be
> against any measure that would leavy a burdeon at
> application for citizenship.
>

What a wonderful way to express what I feel! Thank you.

> That said however, I would certainly support the idea
> of supporting our nation in some other fashion,
> perhaps in the way of a yearly (or whatever other
> increment that is seen as fitting) tax based upon
> duration of citizenship (thereby those with the most
> committment to the group are supporting it
> financially, while those with only cursory interest
> are allowed to remain interested without having to
> invest money they might not have).
>

Once again, I agree with you. Thank you for your opinion. I'll repeat
it just once more. I am in favour of taxes, but I am not in favour of
excluding those who can't (or won't) pay them. I think it would be an
impediment for those willing to join us.

Thank you for bringing this important issue back.

> On the issue of gender, names and sexuality (as
> implied by the issue at hand)...it would seem to me
> that we, as a micronation striving to live up to the
> best of Roman life and divorce ourselves from the
> practices that were less than in keeping with the
> ideals of that same society, we should indeed embrace
> those whose lives have led them to express themselves
> in ways that differ with their biological identity.
> The recognition of a person by the gender identity
> which best suits them seems to be the only way to go.
>

I just can't agree more with you. Are you single, or what? (Just my
little joke ;-) ).

>
> In a perfect world, we are who we are and our
> government, families and friends accept it
> unquestioningly. We may not live in a perfect world,
> but if we are working at building toward that goal
> (that of a perfect world), why not pull the stumbling
> blocks out of the way from the get-go, rather than
> dragging them with us for miles before we realize
> we've fettered ourselves with them?
>
> Lastly, to those whose Gens has been increased through
> birth or adoption, and those who have been appointed,
> elected or are taking vacation (which I wish I could
> be doing!) congratulations!
>
> Happy Friday all...(sorry for the long post)
>
>
> =====
> Gaia Natalina Casca
> Fremont, California
>

Congratulations to you! Thank you for sharing your thoghts with us.

=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Protocivis romanus.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Alternative to Name-change Edict--Reply to Sulla
From:	Marius the Wanderer <peregrinus@-------->
Date:	Date header was inserted by mta1.rcsntx.swbell.net

Salve, Censor Sulla, et salvete omnes...

In response to this suggestion...
>> My 2 denarii: what if we put both the original AND the reworked
>> version by Marius up for a vote? That would be honest, no?

...Sulla scripsit:
> The Censors disagree, The current name change edict is a law as long
> as the authoring Censor remains in office. Not only that but it
> was written by C. Marius Merullus and L. Cornelius Sulla. For those
> who do not know, C. Marius is Lucia Maria's OWN Paterfamilias. If
> this name change edict satisfied his requirements to the extent that
> he defended it last year. And the fact that he co-authored the name
> change edict. I think that this should be the sole edict up for
> promulgation. (Now if anyone doubts the fact that the Paterfamilias
> spoke up in defense of the current edict, please feel free to go back
> into the archieves and check for yourself.)

Of course my Pater co-authored the Edict; of course he spoke up for it:
it was a vast improvement over the last edict you wrote on the subject
by yourself. I, too, was quite impressed with the revised version, and
had it come up for a Comitia vote last summer I would even have voted
for it.

Unfortunately, what looked so good on paper ended up developing a few
glitches in practice. Problems emerged, not in the law itself, but in
certain Magistrates' interpretations of its transgender provisions; you
in particular, Censor Sulla, have demonstrated a tendency to apply
said provisions in all the most cumbersome ways possible. For the
provisions themselves, you want me to spend time and money getting my
official, listed name *and* gender changed*, a thing I'd never pursued
before because I've been living my daily life as Marius for years, no
one in RL has a problem with it, and therefore the legal stuff was
never really thought necessary. For the medical exemption, you wanted
to see the entire few inches' thickness of my military and veteran's
medical records, most of which are none of your 'forsaken business and
have nothing to do with my gender situation anyhow.

* Name change (Tarrant County, TX): small filing fee, two sworn
statements, and an appearance in court; ETIC: 3-4 months, most of which
will consist of obtaining a court date
Gender change (same place): nearly impossible to get down here; this
is one of those instances where Texas is more 'South' than 'West'. For
the last person I know that got one, it took a couple of years and
required the assistance of an attorney. Yet you, Censor, say that
documentation of a legal name-change is invalid if that same document
also lists me as female. See what I mean...?

Your statement above seems to imply (gods, I hope I'm wrong) that I am
somehow 'bucking' my Paterfamilias. I am not. He saw my alternative
version several months ago. Had he not gone into inactive mode after a
(very frustrating, I hear) season as your colleague, it is quite likely
that he would have been presenting my alternative and not me.

But I am not surprised that you do not wish to see the alternative put
up for a vote. Your entire career as Censor has been a vivid
illustration of the art of denying people a choice. You squelched
opposition from the get-go by deciding controversial matters via edicta
in the first place; you did everything in your power last year to keep
this matter from going to Comitia; and now that it *is* being proposed
for a Comitia vote, you only want the People to have the one
version--your version--to decide on in a straight thumbs-up or
thumbs-down vote.

There's nothing wrong with most of the Edictum de Mutandis Nominibus.
The section that's causing all the trouble is the only one proposed for
amendment. The People should not have to kill the whole lex just
because one section needs a lot of work. My amendment is one way of
being able to keep the baby while dumping the bathwater. And if the
People vote for your version over mine--Hey! At least we'll all know
they had the choice.

(And what'd I tell you about that 'Lucia Maria' business, eh?)

In fides,
***********************************************************
Lucius Marius Peregrinus <peregrinus@-------->
Storyteller, Roleplayer Emeritus, |>[SPQR]<|
Historical Re-Creationist |\=/|
and Citizen of Rome ( ~ 6 )~~~----...,,__
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - `\*/, `` }`^~`,,, \ \
"Is Rome worth one good man's life? ``=.\ (__==\_ /\ }
We believed it once. | | / )\ \| /
Make us believe it again." _|_| / _/_| /`(
-- Lucilla, _Gladiator_ /./..=' /./..'

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Taxes & Other Matters
From:	Gaia Natalina Casca <gaianatalinacasca@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Apr 2001 20:36:27 -0700 (PDT)

> You are forgiven, as last as I can go...

Well, thank you!

> What a wonderful way to express what I feel! Thank
> you.

Nice to know that I'm not alone.

> Once again, I agree with you. Thank you for your
> opinion. I'll repeat
> it just once more. I am in favour of taxes, but I am
> not in favour of
> excluding those who can't (or won't) pay them. I
> think it would be an
> impediment for those willing to join us.
>
> Thank you for bringing this important issue back.

I have the feeling that this is an issue that will
have much discussion over the next few weeks.

> I just can't agree more with you. Are you single, or
> what? (Just my
> little joke ;-) ).

Thank you...and yes...and joke away...I'm always up
for a laugh!

> Congratulations to you! Thank you for sharing your
> thoghts with us.

Be carefull what you encourage...it may develop into a habit...

=====
Gaia Natalina Casca
Fremont, California

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Perfect World
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 05:38:12 +0200 (CEST)

Salvete omnes.

--- Lucius Mauricius Procopious <procopious@--------> escribi�: >
Salvete Gaia Natalina et omnes,
>
> Warning: Long Post

Thank you for the warning. It didn't avoid anyone reading it, thogh
:-).

> you may wish to save this for spare time or delete if
> uninterested.The short
> version is this: I suggest the formation of committees that would
> research
> ancient practices in subjects like financial practices, education,
> health
> care, civil rights, et cetera. These committees would form
> suggestions as to
> how we can adapt ancient practices to Nova Roma in the present while
> trying
> to honor the spirit of our cives drive for a "perfect world" .
>

I'd like to present myself as a volunteer for any such commitee, if I
may.

> I think the comments you made about seeking a perfect world merit
> further
> discussion:
>
> "We may not live in a perfect world,
> > but (if) we are working at building toward that goal
> > (that of a perfect world)"
>
> {The () on "if" was added by me.}
> In order to avoid some of the extreme emotions some issues raise I
> would
> like to consider our "perfect world" in the area of finances rather
> than
> other areas.
> My question is this, what do we think is a perfect world? I think we
> all
> agree it should be Roman. At least for us. But what about the rest?
> Obviously, there is some disagreement about what is and is not a
> civil right
> so let's leave that alone. (By the way I may have access to a
> mediator if
> anyone thinks that would help the yelling on this list.) What about
> financial practices and institutions? Now that we have currency and
> are
> talking about taxes would be a good time to begin this discussion. As
> I read
> the recent wonderful post about municipal officers, I noticed one
> officials
> job was to ensure grain and other foodstuffs were in supply to feed
> the
> cives. Who paid for that food? Was it the government. Will we use a
> similar
> system? I'm not suggesting the Government feed and care for us. I'm
> pointing
> out we need to start talking about how we adapt past practices to the
> present.
> As much as I would like to advocate a system that ensures wealth for
> all, I
> don't think that would be in our best interest. Will Durrant in "Our
> Oriental Heritage" says something like; "When a civilization is
> forming it
> tends toward communism as an equal sharing of resources ensures the
> survival
> of the group. When extra resources are obtainable, some individuals
> will
> seek more than they need while the majority will be happy with their
> lot and
> the civilization transforms to capitalism or dissolves."
> In my opinion capitalism may be a dead end street as well. It seems
> to be a
> financial form of military conquest. Once you have the world where do
> you
> go? According to Chaos theory (I'm paraphrasing this from another
> list I'm
> on) Institutions that attempt to maintain the status quo are doomed
> to be
> torn apart by inside and outside forces.

Thank you again.

> It sounds to me we are destined to be competitive beings. How can we
> utilize
> the practices of our forefathers to ensure we have a financial system
> that
> allows enough competition and room for growth that it survives and
> yet fits
> our hopes for a perfect world?
> These questions could easily be altered to address health care,
> public
> works, et cetera.
> As a corporation we have the opportunity to meet many of these needs
> once we
> have the resources. We don't have to wait for sovereign territory,
> but we
> will need to grow and gain financial strength. In time we could offer
> health
> insurance, banking (I've heard it's relatively easy to start a credit
> union,
> but that might be relative to finding the fountain of youth :) )
> education
> (Some of which is already occurring) et cetera. How can we adapt
> ancient
> Roman practices in those areas to Nova Roma? Would it be wise to form
> committees to examine some of these issues to research practices in
> antiqua
> and offer suggestions as to how this can be adapted in the present.
> We might
> have to find volunteers for the civil rights committee at sword point
> unless
> some of you like to brawl.

I present myself as volunteer again, though I can brawl anyone! I'm
pretty fit, you know? ;-).

> :) Hopefully the other committees will
> find much
> concordia if formed. In closing I would like to stress the importance
> of
> these Committees looking very hard at our perceptions of a perfect
> world.
> Like the idea of sharing wealth equally, many ideas of perfection
> simply
> don't work. Some ideas held by our ancestors may seem cruel or unfair
> but in
> reality they built the greatest empire known to man.
>
> Lucius Mauricius Procopious
> Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
>

=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Protocivis romanus.

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Perfect World
From:	Gaia Natalina Casca <gaianatalinacasca@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Apr 2001 21:12:43 -0700 (PDT)

Salve

> Warning: Long Post

Something I should have done, rather than apologize at
the end...

> you may wish to save this for spare time or delete
> if uninterested.The short
> version is this: I suggest the formation of
> committees that would research
> ancient practices in subjects like financial
> practices, education, health
> care, civil rights, et cetera. These committees
> would form suggestions as to
> how we can adapt ancient practices to Nova Roma in
> the present while trying
> to honor the spirit of our cives drive for a
> "perfect world" .
>
I think this is an excellent idea and I would like to
volunteer to serve on one of these committees.

> I think the comments you made about seeking a
> perfect world merit further
> discussion:

I would certainly agree with that...

> {The () on "if" was added by me.}
> In order to avoid some of the extreme emotions some
> issues raise I would
> like to consider our "perfect world" in the area of
> finances rather than
> other areas.

That would seem a safe enough place to begin...

> How can we utilize
> the practices of our forefathers to ensure we have a
> financial system that
> allows enough competition and room for growth that
> it survives and yet fits
> our hopes for a perfect world?
> These questions could easily be altered to address
> health care, public
> works, et cetera.

Interesting questions...and I see a long,
argumentative road ahead as we delve into them.
> We might
> have to find volunteers for the civil rights
> committee at sword point unless
> some of you like to brawl. :)

I for one would volunteer for this committee...and
I've been known to hold my own in verbal free for
alls!

Thank you for taking my briefly explored ideas and
giving them some substance...and for offering some
suggestions that have sincere merrit as we go forward.

=====
Gaia Natalina Casca
Fremont, California

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Patron/Client -One client's real view...
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Apr 2001 22:02:33 -0700

Salvete Quiritibus;

I just wanted to add a quick, yet hearty 'me too' to this post.
Though none of us would want to run the risk of endangering
the terms of the Lex Cornelia de Privatus; those that do wish
to engage in voice communication would benefit from low or
no-cost tools to further propagate the effort.

Bene valete,
Oppius
-----Original Message-----
From: Lucius Mauricius Procopious [mailto:procopious@--------]
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 9:51 PM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Patron/Client -One client's real view...

Salvete Omnes,
In relation to the comments Oppius made about the telephone I agree
wholeheartedly. Voice communication is an invaluable tool. Is there any way
we could add a voice chat room to the web site, or offer a download or link
to a download of a free internet phone program? For instance, I use
Net2phone to talk to relatives in another state.

Lucius Mauricius Procopious
Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
(This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
procopious@--------
ICQ# 83516618
*America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
* The Gens Mauricia
http://www.geocities.com/procopious

"Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that the
affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the reason
for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause is easy
to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal will
decide for himself according to his taste."
-Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died c.560s]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 1:17 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Patron/Client -One client's real view...

> Salvete Quiritibus;
>
> After reasoned requests by Consul Germanice et
> Pompeia Cornelia -and after much consideration;
> it seemed that it might be beneficial to actually
> share the experiences of real-life client -me.
> Consul Germanice was quite right in stating that
> client/patron relationships should be out in
> the open and looked on proudly by those involved
> in same.
>
> So Quirites, I stand before you and declare that
> I am in fact a client of Censor Lucius Cornelius
> Sulla Felix. So, before the attacks fly, I only
> ask that you read what is said here, judge for
> yourself and then do as you will. Since we all
> more or less know each other's general feelings
> on clientage in general -both pro and con, I can
> only offer a description of my own such relationship.
>
> Like many newbies, I came to Nova Roma full of
> grandiose ideas, notions of what to see and do,
> how to participate and so forth. As I started to
> learn more about Nova Roma, many questions arose.
> (And I mean -MANY -in my case, at the time
> I was seemingly having more questions than
> answers.)
>
> One of the things I did early on, was download
> the AIM client and try chatting with various
> citizens to get a better feel for daily life here.
> Knowing that deep down somewhere -there had to
> be much more to Nova Roman life than what the
> main list was offering.
>
> One of the citizens with whom I started talking
> most frequently was Sulla. This was largely
> due to my travel schedule, the weird hours that
> we both seemed to keep (and consequently both
> be on chat at the same time) and some common
> interests in Roman law and various other topics.
> We found a natural rapport which extended naturally
> into macronational issues and other topics.
>
> Well, after my continual grilling of Sulla over
> a period of many weeks on all manner of legal
> and Censorial topics, we decided that it might
> in fact be beneficial to try a semi-traditional
> patron/client relationship. We began discussing
> the idea. It was not something pushed or forced
> on either side. VERY long and detailed discussions
> ensued, via e-mail, AIM and on good old telephone
> (a marvelous tool Quirites and one that has resolved
> more than one misunderstanding between myself and
> my fellow citizens. I highly recommend it.)
>
> The result of these discussions was the formation
> of a general patron/client agreement.
>
> The physical terms of our agreement were actually
> quite simple in the end. Sulla would provide
> guidance and suggestions on the legal side and help
> provide some of the tools necessary for me to
> climb the Cursus should I choose to do so. Additionally
> we would act as mutual sounding boards for all
> manner of ideas regarding Nova Roman law, daily
> life and activities.
>
> In return, I would assist him with projects such
> as the Censor handbook and provide input and support
> on those issues on which we mutually agreed. In
> essence, our agreement ended up being sort of a
> 'scriba +' position. By the time we had actually
> gotten to this point though, a friendship had ensued
> and this became a component of the relationship
> as well.
>
> For myself, I can only say that the experience
> gained and the satisfaction in the reciprocation
> of a patron/client relationship has been rewarding
> in my case. I've been able to learn from one of
> Nova Roma's longest-standing citizens and someone
> who has always been accessible to the cives and has
> worked tirelessly on our behalf. -No, I'm not
> going to eulogize; but keep in mind fellow cives
> that Sulla is someone who works *many* hours
> each and every day on behalf of the Respublica.
> He is not just someone who pops his head out
> of a proverbial gopher hole every few weeks to
> fire a few barbs on the main list, nor is he
> someone who just sits around complaining about
> things and doing no real work. We could
> all learn a thing or two from his tireless
> work ethic.
>
> To summarize: yes, I absolutely support the
> tradition of patron/client relationships. In my
> particular case, it has been very beneficial.
> No -such relationships should not be legislated
> or forced on anyone -and such relationships of
> course are not for everyone. It is very much
> a mutual choice for all parties involved.
>
> My hope is that this post has perhaps clarified
> things somewhat. Please feel free to ask questions!
>
> Bene valete,
> Oppius Flaccus Severus, Legatus America Boreoccidentalis
> Sacerdos Neptunus, Retarius et Scriba
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Nova Roma Coins ARE IN!
From:	exitil@--------
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 01:16:36 EDT

how much did it cost to make these?

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Subject:	[novaroma] Exultans sum!
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Gnaeus=20Salix=20Astur?= <salixastur@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 07:23:31 +0200 (CEST)

Ave, romani quirites.

It's 7:23 a.m. I should be sleeping. But I just can't wait to announce
to all of you that...

I'M FINALLY A CITIZEN.

I'd like to thank censor L. Cornelius Sulla Felix both for his deep
understanding and his helpful advices.
And I'd like to thank all of you Novoromans (yes, even you, Draco)
for making this nation/country/urbis a second home for me.

EXULTANS SUM!

=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Civis romanus.

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Subject:	[novaroma] Coins and Flag
From:	"J. T. Sibley" <jrsibley@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 01:47:32 -0400

Salvete omnes!

Picked up some of Marcus Cassius' Nova Roma coins at
Mithracon, my, they are some *spiff*!!! Ring nicely on
the table when you plunk them down. Big golden bronze
ones with nice, simple Roman style design. We're gonna
enjoy using these!

Also picked up a Nova Roma flag; they're big enough for
smallish uses, will look good hung from a pavilion.
Gonna bring mine to Pennsic.....hehehe....

Many thanks, Cassius and Patricia Cassia, for getting
these done!
Valete,
S. Ambrosia Fulvia

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Exultans sum!
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Apr 2001 22:35:09 -0700

Congratulations Gnae Salix! Now, please -get some rest :-)

-Oppius
-----Original Message-----
From: Gnaeus Salix Astur [mailto:salixastur@--------]
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 10:24 PM
To: novaroma@--------
Cc: NRHispania@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Exultans sum!

Ave, romani quirites.

It's 7:23 a.m. I should be sleeping. But I just can't wait to announce
to all of you that...

I'M FINALLY A CITIZEN.

I'd like to thank censor L. Cornelius Sulla Felix both for his deep
understanding and his helpful advices.
And I'd like to thank all of you Novoromans (yes, even you, Draco)
for making this nation/country/urbis a second home for me.

EXULTANS SUM!

=====
Bene Valete!
Gnaeus Salix Astur.
Civis romanus.

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] CANADA OCCIDENTALIS EDICTA NUMBER TWELVE
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Apr 2001 22:38:32 -0700

Salve Gai Vipsani Agrippa!

Congratulations on your appointment as provincial cornicularius!
Am sure you will do well in your new post.

Bene vale,
Oppius Flaccus Severus, Legatus America Boreoccidentalis Major
-----Original Message-----
From: Quintus Sertorius [mailto:quintus-sertorius@--------]
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 6:59 AM
To: novaroma@--------; NR_CanOcc@--------
Subject: [novaroma] CANADA OCCIDENTALIS EDICTA NUMBER TWELVE

CANADA OCCIDENTALIS EDICTA NUMBER TWELVE

APPOINTMENT OF PROVINCIAL CORNICULARIUS (ADJUTANT)
6 Apr 2001

Salve All

I, Quintus Sertorius, Propraetor Canada Occidentalis, issue the following
Edicta to announce the appointment of Gaius Vipsanius Agrippa to the
position of Provoncial Cornicularis(adjutant) for Canada Occidentalis.

Vale

Quintus Sertorius

Tribune

Quaestor

Propraetor

Canada Occidentalis

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Libertatis Festum
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 00:00:11 EDT

Salve Quintus Sertorius

On 4/13/01 11:06 AM Quintus Sertorius (quintus-sertorius@--------) wrote:

SNIPPED
>>I
>> do not believe that it was completely evil in Roma Antiqua or that it
>> *has* to be evil in every case here. But I know it to have been used
>> here in at least one or two cases as a condition proposed or implied
>> for the obtaining of a senate seat.
>
>QS;
>I would like to see where this was said, not that this is totally wrong.
>
Let me make certain I have our new Tribune's words right. You are saying
that for an individual citizen to promise or imply that he will award a
seat in the Senate as enticement for another citizen to enter his service
is somehow acceptable?

I sincerely hope you have misspoken here. I would hate to think that one
who was just elected to serve the people and the Constitution is stating
that public offices are commodities to be traded by individuals for their
private gain.

Please explain for us what you meant here.

Vale,

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.

certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Taxes and Audits
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 06:08:50 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@n...> wrote:
> Salvete
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: lsicinius@-------- [mailto:lsicinius@--------]
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 5:54 AM
> >
> > I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to know what New
> > Hampshire's laws require of a NPC regarding reports to members. I
> > realize that Nova Roma can pass leges on this matter, but since Nova
> > Roman law is limited to banishment a criminal magistrate will care
> > little after (s)he milks the treasury. New Hampshire law on the other
> > hand may subject him/her to imprisonment which has a greater deterance
> > value.
>
> If I may, Nova Roma's Constitution and laws are currently regarded
as Nova
> Roma Incorporated's corporate bylaws. They thus have legal standing
in the
> United States and are enforceable under U.S. law.
>
> In any event, even if we do not have laws on the books specifically
> outlawing misappropriation of funds, anyone guilty of doing so would be
> guilty of at least embezzlement under United States law and would
thus be
> prosecutable.
>
> Indeed, this would apply to any officer of Nova Roma, including
provincial
> governors who handle provincial treasuries (which really should be
done by
> quaestores; one reason that we really need to be considering formally
> bonding our quaestors, both elected and appointed).
>
> Next year in the Forum!
>
> Vale,
>
> Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> Consul
>

Salvete,

Thank you Consul!
I'm asking these rather hard questions now because I want to make it
as easy as posible for Nova Roma to start collecting the taxes she
needs to continue to grow.

On the matter of reports. This is the information currentally avaible,

http://www.novaroma.org/aerarium_saturni/index.html#Quaestors

We have NO reports listed for the third and fourth quarters of 2753,
and since we are two weeks into the second quarter of 2754 we should
also have a report for Q1 2754 due soon.

I was unable to find a lex concerning these finical reports.

There is a budget posted for 2753 but nothing for 2754, nor did I see
a budget for 2754 in the consulta listed in the Tabularium, despite
the requirement set forth in the constitution (V.B.1) that this be
made no later than the kalends of November.

If Nova Roma's officals wish to maintain the level of trust that will
be needed to collect taxes, these are matters that can NOT be ignored.
The Civies have the right to know how thier tax money will be spent.

Before Taxes are imposed I would sugest that a lex be passed
formalizing the reports. This should define exactaly which months
consist of a "Quarter", a deadline for making the report after the end
of the Quarter (I sugest 14 days) and a requirements on how these
reports should be submitted to the citizens.

I remind the Senate of it's duty to Prepare the budget for 2754, and
sugest that this be taken care of BEFORE taxes are imposed.

Valete,
Lucius Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Taxes and Audits
From:	"L. Cornelius Sulla Felix" <alexious@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Apr 2001 23:12:37 -0700

Ave,

I believe this information would be ideal to be included in the Quaestor
Handbook.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: <lsicinius@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 11:08 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Re: Taxes and Audits

> --- In novaroma@--------, "Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@n...> wrote:
> > Salvete
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: lsicinius@-------- [mailto:lsicinius@--------]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 5:54 AM
> > >
> > > I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to know what New
> > > Hampshire's laws require of a NPC regarding reports to members. I
> > > realize that Nova Roma can pass leges on this matter, but since Nova
> > > Roman law is limited to banishment a criminal magistrate will care
> > > little after (s)he milks the treasury. New Hampshire law on the other
> > > hand may subject him/her to imprisonment which has a greater deterance
> > > value.
> >
> > If I may, Nova Roma's Constitution and laws are currently regarded
> as Nova
> > Roma Incorporated's corporate bylaws. They thus have legal standing
> in the
> > United States and are enforceable under U.S. law.
> >
> > In any event, even if we do not have laws on the books specifically
> > outlawing misappropriation of funds, anyone guilty of doing so would be
> > guilty of at least embezzlement under United States law and would
> thus be
> > prosecutable.
> >
> > Indeed, this would apply to any officer of Nova Roma, including
> provincial
> > governors who handle provincial treasuries (which really should be
> done by
> > quaestores; one reason that we really need to be considering formally
> > bonding our quaestors, both elected and appointed).
> >
> > Next year in the Forum!
> >
> > Vale,
> >
> > Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
> > Consul
> >
>
> Salvete,
>
> Thank you Consul!
> I'm asking these rather hard questions now because I want to make it
> as easy as posible for Nova Roma to start collecting the taxes she
> needs to continue to grow.
>
> On the matter of reports. This is the information currentally avaible,
>
> http://www.novaroma.org/aerarium_saturni/index.html#Quaestors
>
> We have NO reports listed for the third and fourth quarters of 2753,
> and since we are two weeks into the second quarter of 2754 we should
> also have a report for Q1 2754 due soon.
>
> I was unable to find a lex concerning these finical reports.
>
> There is a budget posted for 2753 but nothing for 2754, nor did I see
> a budget for 2754 in the consulta listed in the Tabularium, despite
> the requirement set forth in the constitution (V.B.1) that this be
> made no later than the kalends of November.
>
> If Nova Roma's officals wish to maintain the level of trust that will
> be needed to collect taxes, these are matters that can NOT be ignored.
> The Civies have the right to know how thier tax money will be spent.
>
> Before Taxes are imposed I would sugest that a lex be passed
> formalizing the reports. This should define exactaly which months
> consist of a "Quarter", a deadline for making the report after the end
> of the Quarter (I sugest 14 days) and a requirements on how these
> reports should be submitted to the citizens.
>
> I remind the Senate of it's duty to Prepare the budget for 2754, and
> sugest that this be taken care of BEFORE taxes are imposed.
>
> Valete,
> Lucius Sicinius Drusus
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Libertatis Festum
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Apr 2001 23:15:09 -0700

Ave Formosane;
-----Original Message-----
From: M. Apollonius Formosanus [mailto:bvm3@--------]
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 8:23 AM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Libertatis Festum

M. Apollonius Formosanus omnibus Quiritibus S.P.D.

Formosanus writes:
Today, the 13th of April is not only the Ides and one day in the
Ceralia, but is also the Festival of Libertas, Goddess of Liberty.
Libertas is typically depicted carrying the rod of manumission (for
the freeing of slaves) and wearing the Liberty Cap.

OFS: Gratias multas for the background on this important date!

<much snippage of topics that have been covered ad nauseaum>

Formosanus writes:
This should be a constant lesson for all who consider policy
and all lead us that for Nova Roma to prosper it must treat its cives
with respect and do its best to serve them.

OFS: Yes, we have been refreshed on this 'lesson,' over, and over and over
and over and
........

Formosanus writes:
Many a macronation can
force its citizens to serve it and weigh them down with heavy taxes,
punitive laws, official arrogance, political corruption, and
bureaucratic red tape - but we are not the kind of an entity that can
get away with that, and if it is tried, people of common sense will
simply depart.

OFS: Perhaps some further clarification? Is this a warning to the
magistrates?
A threat? Is this yet again some reference to the 'you know what' that
happened
last month?

Formosanus writes:
That gives us a constant bottom line of libertas here, although
some
seem to want to ignore it and act have Nova Roma act like a
macrostate that can get away with these abuses.

OFS: Abuses? Specifics please.

Formosanus writes:
I have recently had occasion to ask in this forum whether it is
possible for people of minority sexual groups to have their needs met
in straightforward and humane ways.

OFS: Yes, you have asked, the people have responded and the vote is
forthcoming. Perhaps you could focus on helping us with Latinitas or
some other positive endeavor?

Formosanus writes:

Is it possible, I have also
asked, for a user of a language other than English to receive - and
have his language receive - completely equal treatment here? And can
a dissenting voice be raised without being subject to hysterical
attacks and organised ridicule?

OFS: Yes, dissension is a common tactic of yours. In fact, I can see very
little of anything that you 'assent' to, unless it's something that you have
proposed
yourself. A phrase comes to mind: ad hominem, ad hominem, ad nauseam.

Formosanus writes:
I also see that the issue of clientela is being raised of late,
which is certainly a serious threat to the libertas of our society.

OFS: Why is that Formosanus? Because you disagree with it?

Formosanus writes:
I do not believe that it was completely evil in Roma Antiqua or that it
*has* to be evil in every case here.

OFS: Evil? Why such emotive terminology. Evil my good man, is subjective
at best and certainly has no consistent context anywhere in the world.
How about some context for this state of 'evil.'

Formosanus writes:
But I know it to have been used
here in at least one or two cases as a condition proposed or implied
for the obtaining of a senate seat.

OFS: I would be the first to agree that such a thing would be *extremely*
serious
indeed. You already have public statements from three clients in
the Respublica that have stepped forward of late. I can unequivocally
tell you that at least in my case, there was no promise of any such
thing and frankly, am unaware of any such way in that this could be
provided to a client under our current system of Government.

If you are
worried about such a thing taking place *and* have some detailed specifics
about the two cases you mention that involved trading promises for Senate
seats, then by all means lets discuss them, instead of bandying about
emotional terms and unfounded accusations. Otherwise, look seriously
at what we're trying to do, look at what we've actually *said,* look at the
actual stated *nature* of the relationships from those that had the nerve to
step forward and declare them.

Formosanus writes:
When I entered Nova Roma a little
over a year ago there was a solid consensus that some things such as
clientela, blood sacrifice, the inequality of the sexes, and slavery
were emphatically, absolutely and for ever *not* considered
appropriate for us to take over from Roma Antiqua.

OFS: I'll certainly defer to you from the longevity perspective. Since my
tenure
here though, I have seen no such 'consensus' about many of these topics,
other
than sexual equality and non-slavery, which I daresay we *all* agree on.
The other topics are discussed quite often in several Nova Roman venues.
This one and the Religio Romana list, just to name two. But to follow your
argument here, it seems like you're saying that what Formosanus thinks
was agreed was good, any discussion to the contrary is 'bad.'

Formosanus writes:
This consensus is
fraying, and the character of our social culture is changing for the
worse. I think we had all better beware of this trend and stand up
against it.

OFS: Yes, as our anointed guardian of truth, liberty and justice I suppose?
You are indeed adept at 'standing against' anything and everything, but so
little you stand for except your own narrow platforms and one-trick
legislative
platforms. Perhaps you can help combat all the perceived wrongs with Nova
Roma by utilizing some of your gifted abilities in linguistics? Perhaps some
web-enabled Latin courses, virtual seminars -something?

Formosanus writes:
There has been serious talk from one Tribune and one Consul about a
bill of rights in this year, which is certainly something that would
make Libertas happy, not to mention me... News of this will be very
welcome, supposing that it has specificity and teeth.

OFS: Well, we won't know until such a bill materializes before the voters.
Until such time, there's no point in discussing such a measure until we
have specifics to review.

Bene vale,
Oppius

<snipped>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] Governors list
From:	"Lucius Mauricius Procopious" <procopious@-------->
Date:	Fri, 13 Apr 2001 23:32:03 -0700

Salvete Governors et omnes,
If any of you governors did not receive an invitation to the Colloquim "Provincia" (Well it will be soon) please let me know. Especially you Senator Antonius Gryllus Graecus, I had some trouble sending you one of my posts earlier and want to make sure this post got through.

Lucius Mauricius Procopious
Propraetor America Boreoccidentalis
(This is an unofficial post for which I assume full responsibility)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
procopious@--------
ICQ# 83516618
*America Boreoccidentalis Mail List
http://www.egroups.com/group/AmBor_Waves
* The Gens Mauricia
http://www.geocities.com/procopious

"Indeed, it is not by the plans of men, but by the hand of God that the affairs of men are directed; and this men call Fate, not knowing the reason for what things they see occur; and what seems to be without cause is easy to call the accident of chance. Still, this is a matter every mortal will decide for himself according to his taste."
-Procopius of Caesarea (in Palestine) [born c.490/507- died c.560s]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Subject:	[novaroma] The Client Patron Relationship
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 06:58:12 -0000

Salvete,

I see no dishoner in this ancient practice. Some have condemed it as
being open to abuse, but what institution isn't? If two citizens wish
to enter into a relationship, then that is thier concern, not mine. At
least if two PRIVATE indiviuals wish to do this.

It does become a matter that concerns me if the citizens hold an
offical postion, and I was somewhat taken aback when our new Tribune
anounced that he was a client AFTER the polls had closed. The Question
of the Client/Patron relationship came up during the campaign, and I
think that either the Canidate or his Patron should have made this
relationship known at that time, instead of waiting until after voting
was finished. As this was a very close election, I think there's a
good chance that with holding this information could have affected the
outcome, and that is not a idea I'm happy with.

The Citizens have a right to know if a canidate has entered into this
relationship BEFORE the election, and to know if any other magistrates
have similar relationships. No I'm NOT calling for any kind of
disclosure lex. It would be unenforcable and mearly drive relations
into the shadows. I'm mearly asking that our magistrates and canidates
for offices do this out of personal honesty.

Valete,
Lucius Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] The Client Patron Relationship
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 00:07:12 -0700

Ave,

Currently there is no legislation governing this practice. I would hope
that this would be legislated and areas such as this one could be
spelled out. As well as many other areas that would govern this
relationship can be spelled out as well.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

lsicinius@-------- wrote:
>
> Salvete,
>
> I see no dishoner in this ancient practice. Some have condemed it as
> being open to abuse, but what institution isn't? If two citizens wish
> to enter into a relationship, then that is thier concern, not mine. At
> least if two PRIVATE indiviuals wish to do this.
>
> It does become a matter that concerns me if the citizens hold an
> offical postion, and I was somewhat taken aback when our new Tribune
> anounced that he was a client AFTER the polls had closed. The Question
> of the Client/Patron relationship came up during the campaign, and I
> think that either the Canidate or his Patron should have made this
> relationship known at that time, instead of waiting until after voting
> was finished. As this was a very close election, I think there's a
> good chance that with holding this information could have affected the
> outcome, and that is not a idea I'm happy with.
>
> The Citizens have a right to know if a canidate has entered into this
> relationship BEFORE the election, and to know if any other magistrates
> have similar relationships. No I'm NOT calling for any kind of
> disclosure lex. It would be unenforcable and mearly drive relations
> into the shadows. I'm mearly asking that our magistrates and canidates
> for offices do this out of personal honesty.
>
> Valete,
> Lucius Sicinius Drusus
>
>
>
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: The Client Patron Relationship
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 07:49:57 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@e...> wrote:
> Ave,
>
> Currently there is no legislation governing this practice. I would hope
> that this would be legislated and areas such as this one could be
> spelled out. As well as many other areas that would govern this
> relationship can be spelled out as well.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
>

Ave Lucius Cornelius,

Thak you for your reply!

I can sugest one area where we can follow the practices of Roma
Antiquita in this matter. In the "Life of Marius" Plutarch mentions
that Marius held that his Cliental obligations were ended when he was
elected Tribune, however Plutarch goes on to say that Marius was
incorrect, that the bond was only formally disolved when someone
assumed a magistracy that held the right to set in the curule chair.

So I sugest that we follow the practices of Antiquita and end the
relationship when a Client gains an office that has imperium attached
to it.

See
http://classics.mit.edu/Plutarch/c_marius.html

Paragraph 5 for Marius's Clintal relationship and Plutarchs comment on
how the Cliental relationship was ended by office.

Vale,
Lucius Sicinius Drusus

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Exultans sum!
From:	Christer Edling <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 09:24:32 +0200

> Ave, romani quirites.
>
> It's 7:23 a.m. I should be sleeping. But I just can't wait to announce
>to all of you that...
>
>I'M FINALLY A CITIZEN.
>
>I'd like to thank censor L. Cornelius Sulla Felix both for his deep
>understanding and his helpful advices.
>And I'd like to thank all of you Novoromans (yes, even you, Draco)
>for making this nation/country/urbis a second home for me.
>
>EXULTANS SUM!
>
>
>=====
>Bene Valete!
>Gnaeus Salix Astur.
>Civis romanus.

Salve Honorable Gnaeus Salix Astur!

I Congratulate You with all of my heart! Welcome!

Vale

Christer Edling
alias
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
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************************************************
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************************************************
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Exultans sum!
From:	=?iso-8859-1?q?Tiberius=20Apollonius=20Cicatrix?= <consulromanus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 14 Apr 2001 09:32:12 +0100 (BST)

Salve Salix

--- Gnaeus Salix Astur