Subject:	[novaroma] 1. Report 2. Proposal of Regula 3. Proposal of Plan
From:	Christer Edling <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 02:13:18 +0200

REPORT
ABOUT THE STATE OF THE PROVINCIA THULE

8 April 2001
From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, Propraetor Thules

Salve All!

This is a report from the Provincia to the citizens of Thule. I send this
report, as I, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, Propraetor Thules has assumed the
Propraetorship of our Provincia as of 4th April 2001, but the New Official
Provincial Nova Roma presence will begin as of 15th April 2001, the same
day as my two founding Edictas (Regula and Plan) will be sanctioned and
published. This report will address the present state of our Provincia, and
what actions will be taken to organise it.

First, the state of the Provincia: Thule is one of the oldest and largest
Provinciae of Nova Roma, and has a small but growing Nova Roman population,
which is currently unorganised. The Provincia is located in the northern
part of Europe, and has a non- Nova Roman population of about 24.000.000.
There are twelve citizens located all across the Provincia, divided into
eight Gentes. They are:

Gens Curia located in Regio Danica and Regio Finnica, 4 members,
Paterfamilias Titus Curius Dannicus

Gens Fabia located in Regio Suecica, 1 member, (Paterfamilias Quintus
Fabius Maximus in California)

Gens Fennia located in Regio Finnica, 1 member, Paterfamilias Iulius
Fennicus Angelos

Gens Galiciana located in Regio Suecica, 1 member, Paterfamilias Artus
Galicianus Jacobus

Gens Hadriana located in Regio Suecica, 2 members, Paterfamilias Magnus
Hadrianus Ingmarius Cogitatus Thuleus

Gens Minucia located in Regio Suecicae, 1 member, (Paterfamilias Marcus
Minucius Audens in Nova Britannia)

Gens Octavia located in Regio Suecica , 1 member, (Paterfamilias Marcus
Octavius Germanicus in Lacus Magnus)

Gens Rubellius located in Regio Norvegica, 1 member, Paterfamilias Gaius
Rubellius Rufus

I will have to organize the Provincia from scratch. As there is no more to
report on the present organisation of Thule, I will now move on to what
actions will be taken to organise the administration our Provincia. When I
started organising I discovered that there was no formal Provincial
Administration for Thule. I then studied Nova Roma and found that the
Provincia of Canada Occidentalis had a very good administrative
organisation. I modified it to fit Thule, and our new administration system
(Regula) will act as a blue print for future expansion.

I hereby publicly thank the Illustrus Propraetor of Canada Occidentalis and
Quaestor Quintus Sertorius for letting me use his document. Finally, in
this document, there will be a section on what activities are presently
being planed for our Provincia. These sections will be presented under the
following two headings:

I. PROPOSED REGULA FOR THE ADMINISTRATION OF THULE; and
II. PROPOSED PLAN FOR ACTIVITIES FOR THE ORGANISATION OF THULE 2574 - 2576

The following are a proposal. All cives in Thule are welcome to come with
more proposals and ideas. The period of discussion is over on Sunday the
15th of April on which date I, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, the Propraetor
Thules, will include changes and sanction the
1. "Approved Regula (Charter) for the Administration of Thule" and 2.
"Approved Plan for Activities for the Organisation of Thule for 2574 - 2576"


I. PROPOSED REGULA FOR THE ADMINISTRATION OF THULE

For administrative purposes the Provincia of Thule will be divided into
four Regiones, and in the future one more may be added, namely Regio
Islandica, which must be approved of by the Senate though. Each Regio will
be assigned a Legatus, who will deal with the day-to-day operations of
their Regiones. Please see below for information on each of the Regiones,
including the responsibilities of the Legati, and precise geographical
borders. The details of the administrative system by which the Provincia
will adopt may also be viewed.

The Provincia of Thule will be divided for administrative purposes into
four Regiones:

1. Regio Danica (Denmark), 3 civi

2. Regio Finnica (Finland), 2 civi

3. Regio Norvegica (Norway), 1 cives

4. Regio Suecica (Sweden), 5 civi (of these one lives in USA at times)

A Legatus will be assigned to each Regio, and is responsible for the
day-to-day administration of thier Regio, whilst the Propraetor oversees
the administration of the Provincia as a whole. This document gives precise
details of the administrative structure to be used in Thule, under four
main headings: A. Governor for Thule (excerpt from The Constitution of Nova
Thule V. C.) B. Regio, Legati Title, and Area; C. Administrative
Infrastructure; and D. Duties and Responsibilities for the Legati and other
officials of Thule.

A. Governor for Thule (excerpt from The Constitution of Nova Thule V. C.)

"The Senate may, by Senatus Consultum, create provincia for administrative
purposes and to appoint provincial governors therefore. The Senate may
review each governor on a yearly basis and it remains in the discretion of
the Senate whether or not to prorogue such governors. These governors may
have assistants to handle the disbursements of any funds that might come
from the central government, as well as to manage any local funds.

1. Governors shall have the following honours, powers, and obligations:

a. To hold imperium and have the honor of being preceeded by six lictors
solely within the jurisdiction of their provincia;
b. To proclaim those edicta (edicts) necessary to engage in those tasks
which advance the mission and function of Nova Roma solely within the
jurisdiction of their provincia (such edicts being binding upon themselves
as well as others);
c. To manage the day-to-day organization and administration of their provincia;
d. To appoint legati (legates) to administer sub-divisions of their
province with all of the authority of the governor and to remove the same
as they see fit;
e. To appoint scribae (clerks) to assist with administrative and other
tasks, as the governor shall see fit.

2. The titles for provincial governors are as follow:
a. Those currently serving as consuls or praetors shall go by their normal
title;
b. Consuls serving as governors whose term in office as consul has expired,
yet who are continuing in their role as governor, shall be called
proconsuls;
c. Praetors serving as governors whose term in office as praetor has
expired, yet who are continuing in their role as governor, as well as those
citizens whom the Senate shall appoint who are not currently serving as
consul or praetor shall be called propraetors."

B. Regio, Legati Title, and Area.

1. DANICA

Legatus Regionis Danicae, (Legate of the Danish Region)
Area = equivalent to Denmark.

2. FINNICA

Legatus Regionis Finnicae, (Legate of the Finnish Region)
Area = equivalent to Finland and Åland.

3. NORVEGICA

Legatus Regionis Norvegicae, (Legate of the Norweigian Region)
Area = equivalent to Norway.

4. SUECICA

Legatus Regionis Suecicae, (Legate of the Swedish Region)
Area = equivalent to Sweden.

C. Administrative Infrastructure

1. The Legati Thules must provide the Propraetor Thules with the standard
contact information (e-mail address, (snail) mail address and telephone
number). This information about the cives of each Regio shall be requested
by the Legati for their Regio on a quarterly basis from the Censores and
forwarded to the Propraetor Thules. The Propraetor will keep records of
these details, and ensure that all Legati know how to contact the
Propraetor, the other Legati and all cives. The primary method of
administrative communication will be via e-mail, with mail and telephone
being used when e-mail is not available.

2. The names of the Legati Thules will be displayed, with their locations,
on the Thule website, with links to their e-mail addresses. Prospective
citizens will be encouraged to contact the Legatus for their Regio as a
line of first enquiry. There will be separate pages on the Thule website
for each Regio. Legati are also encouraged to establish web sites for their
Regiones, which will then be linked to the Thule website.

3. The Propraetor of Thule will appoint Legati, whose positions will be
reaffirmed each year on the first of January, by the Propraetor, if the
Propraetor so decides. When a legateship becomes open, the Praetor shall
invite all citizens in the relevant Regio to put themselves forward as
candidates for office. All citizens residing within that Regio shall be
eligible to stand for such office. The choice of Legatus shall be at the
Propraetor's discretion, to be determined by any means deemed appropriate.
If the Propraetor deems it appropriate, he will wait to appoint a Legatus
for a Regio until he finds a suitable person to appoint as Legatus for that
Regio. The Propraetor can appoint Prolegati (Provisional Legati on Trial)
for a period of not more than four months for Regiones without a regular
Legatus. Prolegati fill all the functions of regular Legati. All Prolegati
can be appointed or dismissed at any time by the Propraetor Thules.

4. The Propraetor Thules shall at all times retain the right of veto over
all actions of the Legati.

5. All Legati shall retain the right to resign from their positions at any
time, without penalty, provided they provide a reason for their resignation.

D. Duties and Responsibilities for the Legati and other officials of Thule

1. The Legati Thules will establish and maintain personal contacts as far,
as is possible with the citizens resident in the Regio for which they are
responsible. The Legati shall act as a point of first contact and enquiry
for interested prospective citizens, and are asked to offer advice to such
prospective citizens concerning application for Nova Roman citizenship,
information, etc. The Legati shall also act as a point of first contact for
existing citizens, to whom they are also asked to offer advice relating to
any aspect of Nova Roma to the best of their abilities.

2. The Legati are encouraged to correspond regularly with the Propraetor
Thules, reporting new developments or events in their Regios, and asking
advice where necessary. The Legati shall also actively seek advice and
direction from the Provinica Propraetor, and be prepared to assist the
Propraetor in any projects that are undertaken concerning Thule. To ensure
a minimum degree of communication, Legati are required to present reports
on their Regiones to the Propraetor twice yearly, on or close before the 31
November and 30 May. These reports may be brief, but should outline, to the
best of the Legatus' knowledge, the current population of his or her Regio.
It shall also outline the events, which have been held in connection with
Nova Roma during the past six months in his or her Regio, the plan for the
next six months, and any further information, which the Legatus may deem
useful or necessary. Failure to produce such reports within one month of
the expected date (31 November and 30 May), without good reason or prior
explanation or passivity in the leadership of his/her Regio may result in
the dismissal of the Legatus by the Propraetor.

3. The Legati Thules are encouraged to participate in further activities to
promote Nova Roma and the Provincia. Legati will make contacts with local
institutions in order to facilitate the exchange of information.

4. The Legati Thules shall take care of the day-to-day administration of
the Regiones for which they are responsible, but they shall remain at all
times subordinate, and answerable to the Propraetor Thules. If at any time
the Propraetor has cause to believe that an individual Legatus is failing
to fulfil his or her duties to a reasonable standard, or indulging in
activities which are illegal under the law in each Nordic (Thule) country
(Regio), the Propraetor will contact the Legatus to be warned of the
possible consequences of such action, and ask for an improvement in
standards. If no, or an inadequate response, is forthcoming, the Propraetor
may dismiss the Legatus, and arrange for the appointment of a new Legatus
as a replacement.

5. The Propraetor Thules may appoint one Senior Legatus, this could be an
separate position or held together with one of the Legatus Regionis
positions. The Senior Legatus shall function as Deputy to the Propraetor
when so ordered by the Propraetor Thules. The Propraetor shall publish an
edictum for each occasion that the Senior Legatus shall function as his
Deputy. The Edictum shall include directives for the assignment including
time for the assignment and the actual task. The Senior Legati can also be
assigned special missions, aside the assignments as Deputy, by the
Propraetor Thules. These missions and the duration of them will be
specified in Propraetorian edicts. The appointment and dismissal of the
Senior Legatus shall follow the same rules as for the other Legati.

6. The Propraetor may appoint a "Consilium Provinciale Thules" (The
Provincial Council of Thule) to advice the Propraetor, who shall act as
Chairman and call the Consilium to order. The Consilium shall consider only
those issues put forward to it by the Propraetor Thules; the Consilium can
not in itself put issues on the agenda, although its members can make such
suggestion personally to the Propraetor. The Propraetor shall act as
Secterarius for the Consilium and keep the minutes. The Propraetor can, as
he wishes, decide to not follow the counsel of the Consilium Provinciale
Thules. Members will be all Legates, including the Senior Legatus. The
Propraetor will also be able to call other cives to sit in the Consilium,
these members will be called "Consiliarius" or "Consiliaria". Consiliarii
can be appointed or dismissed at any time by the Propraetor Thules. The
Consiliarii normally sits for the same period as the Legati. The Consilium
will not function to exclude cives, but to unite the provincial leadership
so that it in its turn can function as a center for all communication, work
and contact within the Provincia.

7. The Propraetor Thules shall appoint a "Praeco Aranei Thules" (Provincial
webmaster, Crier of the Web of Thule) for the homepage for Provincia Thule
and a "Praefectus Sermonis Thules" (Provincial List Moderator, Head of
Speech of Thule) to arrange for the administration of the Thule e-mail
list. The Praeco Aranei Thules and the Praefectus Sermonis Thules can be
appointed or dismissed at any time by the Propraetor Thules.

8. The leadership (the Consilium) of the Provincia, shall work together to
make Nova Roma and Thule strong in all possible ways: Roman Religio,
personal meetings, seminars/conferences, financial work, other work within
Nova Roma and so on. The Propraetor shall, as the Provincia get enough
enthusiastic cives, appoint "Procuratores" for each of these activities.
For now the Propraetor will act as Procurator Aerarium (Provincial
Quaestor), until such time as this position can be filled by a willing
civis. The Propraetor shall also appoint one position to deal with external
contacts (external contacts with universities, museums, schools, mass media
and other interesting organisations), who will be called "Legatus ad Res
Externas" (Legate for External Affairs), who also will have to keep in
touch with the Sodalitas Egressus. All Procuratores and the Legatus ad Res
Externas can be appointed or dismissed at any time by the Propraetor Thules.

9. The Propraetor Thules shall appoint a Legatus Militum (Military Tribune)
who is responsible for all contacts with re-enactment Legions and showing
Roman military uniforms and weapon on Roman days and the like. The Legatus
Militia also is responsible for all military studies of the Roman army and
navy, within Provincia Thule. The Propraetor Thules may appoint a young man
or woman to the position of Contubernalis Provincia (Provinsial Adjutant),
the personal military assistant to the Propraetor. The Legatus Militum and
the Contubernalis Provincia can be appointed or dismissed at any time by
the Propraetor Thules.

10. The Propraetor Thules may appoint magistrates, to administer the
Provincial Nova Roman populations of individual towns or areas. This will
soon be regulated by Nova Roma Roma legislation, and then the Propraetor
Thules on this issue will complement this edict.

11. Until such time as the Constitutional provisions regarding the
administration of Provincia are changed the following officials will been
seen as ordinari Legati according to the Constitution of Nova Roma:
1. Senior Legatus 2. Prolegati 3. The Consiliarii.

12. Until such time as the Constitutional provisions regarding the
administration of Provincia are changed the following officials will been
seen as ordinari Scribae according to the Constitution of Nova Roma:
1. The Praeco Aranei Thules 2. The Praefectus Sermonis Thules. 3. Legatus
ad Res Externas 4. Procuratores
5. Legatus Militum 6. Contubernalis Provincia.

13. The Legates, Scribae and other officials constitute the Cohors
Propraetoris (the staff of the Propraetor) and the Praetorium is the HQ of
the Propraetor.

14. Candidates for the office of Legatus and other officials of Thule
should be aware that participation in rites pertaining to the Religio
Romana (the pagan state religion of Nova Roma) might be required of them in
the course of their duties. Should such participation cause difficulties
for prospective officials, they are advised not to apply for the post.

II. PROPOSED PLAN FOR ACTIVTIES FOR THE ORGANISATION OF THULE 2574 - 2576
Due to the size of this undertaking to organise Thule, the plan will be
phased in order to progress forward incrementally during more than 2 and a
half years. In this section the activities that will be undertaken during
this whole period of organisation will be shown. These activities do not
constitute all we will attempt, and any further input from citizens is
strongly encouraged.

1. Although the Internet holds Nova Roma together as an international
community, we believe that it is also important to organise face-to-face
formal and informal gatherings at the local level. Where members will be
able to meet each other, and share their enthusiasm for Roman culture.
2. We have found that not all Roman lovers want to be part of Nova Roma, so
we will try to gather those who have an overall interest in Old Rome. From
this group we intend to cultivate future citizens. Since we are
predominately an Internet organisation, and rely on this medium for the
communication of information, we should try to find citizens with this in
mind. We should concentrate our efforts in our Home locations, as this
makes all logistics easier. Being very busy on many fronts, things move
slowly, but progress will move steadily forward! What follows is a short
list of the areas we are currently concentrating on. These are some
activities that will be moved forward to further Nova Roman culture in
Thule, and facilitate organisation.

A. Web Site for Thule
We will start by saying we are not web wizards, but we are capable and
willing to learn. It will hopefully develop into a site that will act as a
conduit for all individuals and institutions in Thule to reach the
individuals and institutions in our Provincia. We want as many people to
visit the Thule website as possible, so we plan to have some interesting
attractions set up on the site. Another important part of the website will
be a Links Page between the institutions in Thule and those of Nova Roma.
It is hoped that this Link Page will be a valuable resource in facilitating
the spread of Roman Culture. We plan to compile a contact links list to
include the following institutions; Universities; Museums; High Schools;
The Arts Community; The Military; Law Enforcement; Government; Colleges;
Fire Dept.; Clubs; The Ethnic Community; Shut Ins and the Disabled;
Seniors; etc., etc. We believe that this contact list will be a powerful
weapon the use to further the interests of Thule, and Nova Roma.

We will be very proactive citizens for Nova Roma and ensure information is
pushed in both directions. We will maintain a list of citizens in Thule
(following any privacy laws in Nova Roma) and details such the citizens of
our Provincia wish to share. There will be separate Pages for each of the
four Regiones of Thule, and maybe, in the future, a Page for establishment
of a new Re-enactment Legio.

B. Recruitment
Once it has been determined which organisations will be the most fruitful
to approach, we will begin recruitment. Presenting our micro-nation, and
what we have to offer to prospective citizens. We think that once it
becomes known what Nova Roma is about, we will see a dramatic raise in
applications for citizenship here in Thule. Our goals for actual numbers
are to have 20 citizens for the entire Provincia by the end of 2001. We
intend to operate the Provincia on a Jan.-to-Jan. schedule, the same as in
Nova Roma. For the period of Jan 2002 to Jan 2003, we hope to have 32
citizens. We are going to try to reach the general public with the media.
We are interested in what is happening in the Universities. We believe this
to be an area where our Provincia can expand. We will try to contact a
group in one of the universities in each Regio to see if someone will be
willing to participate in this. The Recruitment plan we have been working
on will be as dynamic as our fertile imaginations can make it. This will be
necessary in order to capture the minds of prospective citizens.

C. Finances
As we are starting the Provincia administration from scratch, all areas of
finance must be organised. We will start by making a budget for Jan.
2001-Jan. 2002, and submit it to the Senate as was requested of all the
Provinciae this last fall. We will then continue by establishing a bank
account for Thule before the end of 2001, which will be used as our main
treasury. For now the Propraetor will act as Procurator Aerarium, until
such time as a more suitable candidate can fill this position. It is
assumed that the Provincia will run in the red until our finances right
themselves. There is also the important question of taxes for Nova Roma,
and, should taxes become a reality, then we will have to follow any
procedures given to the Provincia. The Propraetor will be to issuing
various Edicta, depending on any rules and regulations that we may have to
follow concerning our organisation. We will maybe register Thule as a
non-profit organisation, and once this is done we may apply for a Lotteries
License. We than hope to hold fundraising events, and hope to be able to
accept tax-deductible donations. Then we will put together a proposal for
Thule that will be used to apply for any government cultural grants
available, and more importantly for Corporate grants. We also plan to, in
the future, hold various fundraising events such as Toga Parties where we
hope to have Gladiatorial combats as a draw. The fundraising is mainly for
the payment of taxes, projects, communications, and advertisement.

D. Infrastructure for Thule
The plan we have for the Infrastructure of Thule will be used in order to
make the administration fill out, and to facilitate the Provincia
operations. As the State is planning to organise a judicial system, we
believe it will not be necessary to establish dual institutions for
internal Provincia adjudication. The Propraetor has the power of Imperium
within the Provincia to make any internal rulings needed. We would like it
to be known that this Administration Plan is necessary in order to be able
to properly absorb the new members into Thule, and to ensure that both the
citizen and Nova Roma benefit the most from interaction. I truly believe
that Thule will have a population of more than thirty citizens for the
period of Jan. 2002 and Jan. 2003. These numbers are achievable with the
proper diligence and planning.

E. Spread of Nova Roman Culture
In order to spread Nova Roman culture, it is believed that the creation of
various small groups will be of great importance. These organisations are
designed to attract Rome-lovers, who will be approached for Nova Roman
citizenship. Our hope is that persons interested will also want to be part
of our Republic. It is hoped that these groups will help to hold our
Provincia closer together by drawing out and expanding on the individual
citizens' interests.

F. The Grand opening of the Provincia of Thule
We are planning to have our Grand opening in July 2001, but we intend to
phase our Provincia Plan, and phase one for all projects will hopefully be
completed by July 2001, which is when we plan to have a Grand Opening for
the Provincia of Thule. At this time the entire completed and tested
Website will be up and running, ready for exploration. This site will be
approx. 10 MB of internal files, not counting external links, so it will be
large. It is hoped that there will be many visitors to our Grand Opening.

This brings to a close this report on the state of the Provinicia Thule. We
will continue to work with vigilance, ensuring the emergence of a well
balanced and Ruled Provincia. We understand things take time, but we will
continue to work for what we feel is required. We have planed for this
slowness, and have in fact made it a positive aspect by making our plans
push along steadily. There is no looking back now for Thule and we fully
intend to make this Provincia a powerhouse. Thank you for your interest
and, we hope we have not wasted your time.

Vale

Christer Edling
alias
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
Quaestor of Nova Roma
Propraetor of Thule
Accensus to Consul Marcus Cassius Julianus

The Opinions expressed are my own,
and not an offical opinion of Nova Roma
************************************************
Join the Main List for Nova Roma
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
SHAMALI SALUKIS
************************************************
CAMELOT ROLEPLAYING WORKSHOP
Robert Andersson & Christer Edling
************************************************
IF GAMES - If reality was different!
Markus Sundbom & Christer Edling
************************************************
MAIN E-MAIL ADDRESS: tjalens.h@--------
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Appointments in Thule 7th April 2754
From:	Kristoffer From <kristoffer.from@-------->
Date:	Sun, 08 Apr 2001 02:16:19 +0200

Ave, quirites.

I, Titus Octavius Pius (Kristoffer From), do hereby solemnly swear to
uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests
of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.
As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Titus Octavius Pius (Kristoffer
From), swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public
dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.
I, Titus Octavius Pius (Kristoffer From), swear to uphold and defend
the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to
act in a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.
I, Titus Octavius Pius (Kristoffer From), swear to protect and defend
the Constitution of Nova Roma.
I, Titus Octavius Pius (Kristoffer From), further swear to fulfill
the obligations and responsibilities of the office of Praeco Aranei
Thules to the best of my abilities.
On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I
accept the position of Praeco Aranei Thules and all the rights,
privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.

Vale,

Titus Octavius Pius,
cives Thuleus,
Praeco Aranei Thules

AKA Kristoffer From

---

Si hoc signum legere potes,
operis boni in rebus latinis alacribus
et fructuosis potiri potes.

- Not-so-famous quotation



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Subject:	[novaroma] Basilica was Re: Govenors Removed?
From:	lsicinius@--------
Date:	Sun, 08 Apr 2001 00:50:29 -0000

--- In novaroma@--------, LSergAust@a... wrote:
>
> Salve Lucius Sicinius Drusus
>
> I had started using your Basilica theme with Mozilla 0.8, and
> subsequently with Mozilla 0.8.1 (which seems to be buggier than 0.8).
>
> The latest build of 0.8.1 (2001040608 downloaded yesterday) will not
load
> Basilica from the Yahoogroups page from which I installed it earlier. I
> am also unable to select it from the theme options in Mozilla's menus.
> Basilica shows up as an option, but nothing happens when it is selected.
>
> All of this is on a Mac running OS 8.6, BTW.
>
> L. Sergius Aust.
>
>
> certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.
>
> (You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)

Salve,

I have been remiss and should have posted a warning. Thank you Lucius
Sergius for reminding me.

On March 23 some XUL changes were checked into Mozilla that broke
Basilica (and every other theme for Mozilla). On April 3 a bug that I
filed against Mozilla was fixed. It concerned crashes caused by themes
that had not been updated. This fix implements theme versioning and
prevents "bad" themes from loading.

Other recent check ins to Mozilla include Outliner which provides a
major improvement in Mail and News, a better Cache, and libpr0n. The
last is a an improved imaging system. pr0n is hacker speak for
pornagraphy, libpr0n is a humorus name because it makes Mozilla better
at viewing "porno sites" than any other browser. there is even a joke
web site put up by the Netscape engineers who contributed libpr0n to
Mozilla. See
http://www.libpr0n.com/index.html
(The $34.95 regestration fee is part of the joke, it's free) The real
name is Imglib2, but everyone is using the Joke name.

In addition to working on Basilica, I'm also working on another User
Interface for Mozilla named Aphrodite. Aphrodite has many features
that Mozilla lacks including total recall which restores the web pages
that were being viewed prior to a crash (Real handy for Windows
users), a better menu structure than Mozilla, a better tool bar,
Support for searches on multiple search engines at once, and support
for translations (broken right now). The Aphrodite project was
abandoned last November because the person who was managing it was
hired to work on a full time project. Software you are getting paid to
write takes precedance over free software projects ;o). I recentally
picked up work on Aphrodite because I hope to include some of her
features in Basilica. Aphrodite is a very sick lady right now, she is
full of bugs after being dormant for 6 months. (One is she dosen't
work on Macs), but things are looking up. When I picked her up she
would crash as soon as she tried to load, and after I fixed that the
layout was a total mess. I have gotten her to a state where she works,
but isn't very useful for browsing, and have lined up some help from a
student in England.

Due to all the work I need to do after the recent check ins to perpare
Basilica for Mozilla 0.9, and to get Aphrodite healthy, I didn't have
time to prepare a Basilica release for Mozilla 0.81, though I should
have posted a warning here and I apoligize to anyone who has tried to
download Basilica with the latest versions of Mozilla. The next
version of Basilica should be ready around April 25, but it won't have
any of the Aphrodite features.

Valete,
Lucius Sicinius Drusus




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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Govenors Removed?
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 7 Apr 2001 21:20:34 -0400

Salvete

> -----Original Message-----
> From: lsicinius@-------- [mailto:lsicinius@--------]
> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 2:00 PM
>
> A tied vote? The Senatus Consultum de Ratione Senatus states votes
> will be determined by a "shall be decided by majority vote unless
> otherwise mandated". Since the action before the Senate was proroguing
> Propraetors There wasn't a majority in favor, so it seems the vote was
> that Liva Marcia would NOT be prorogued. It may be a good idea to put
> a Consulta before the Senate that sets up procedures for a tied vote
> however so there will be no future confusion on this matter.

There should not be any confusion on this particular point; you are entirely
correct in pointing out that a tie = a "no" vote. That is precisely what
"shall be decided by majority vote" means. If a majority (i.e., 50%+1) votes
in favor, a measure is carried. Otherwise, it is not.

Next year in the Forum!

Vale,





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Subject:	[novaroma] Re-intro
From:	Marius the Wanderer <peregrinus@-------->
Date:	Date header was inserted by mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net

Ex papilio Luci Mari Peregrini omnes NovaRomanis s.p.d.

Salvete omnes...

[looks out upon the many, many new Citizens who have joined NR's ranks
since last he was active]

...I think it's fair to say that most of you don't remember me. >({|:-)

I first became a Citizen in July of '98 (AUC 2751). Back then I
enjoyed a reputation for moderation and fairness. (You have only my
word for that now, unless you explore the List archives.) I was
Tribunus Militum (we *do* have them), curator sermonem, de facto
Propraetor of the Southwest (US) Province for a year and a half, and a
frequent contributor to the List. I also served the Censor's Office as
Nomenclator, a post I created to review new applicants' Roman-name
requests. My main interests were military, cultural, and historical
affairs, with a strong emphasis on Roman daily life and common
experience. As the 'Lost Legionary', I also did solo reenactments
throughout Texas and the Southwest.

But all that was a long time ago. Stuff happens; and I now come to you
from so far out on the periphery that my cognomen has changed to
something that can mean either Wanderer, Pilgrim, Foreigner, or Alien.
Which it will be, and what I may make of myself from here, will depend
much on my actions; and much on how receptive those who do remember me
are to the idea of my moving about in the community again.

I will have some thoughts about the name-change edictum in another
message. But first I thought I'd best reintroduce myself.

Looking forward to making your (re)acquaintance,
***********************************************************
Lucius Marius Peregrinus <peregrinus@-------->
Storyteller, Roleplayer Emeritus, |>[SPQR]<|
Historical Re-Creationist |\=/|
and Citizen of Rome ( ~ 6 )~~~----...,,__
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - `\*/, `` }`^~`,,, \ \
"Is Rome worth one good man's life? ``=.\ (__==\_ /\ }
We believed it once. | | / )\ \| /
Make us believe it again." _|_| / _/_| /`(
-- Lucilla, _Gladiator_ /./..=' /./..'




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Clientelism (a general comment)
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Sat, 7 Apr 2001 21:30:52 EDT

On 4/7/01 2:54 PM S. Apollonius Draco (hendrik.meuleman@--------) wrote:

SNIPPED
>
>Salve Senator Australice,
>
>> This is the second time you have made this preposterous statement. One
>> can only think that you must be looking for excuses to repeat it because
>> you are trolling for a response. Let me oblige so that you won't have to
>> keep finding excuses to repeat that assertion ad infinitum.
>>
>
>Not so long ago you accused Formosanus of being a crusader; now look what
>you're doing.
It escapes me, Draco - you tell me what I'm doing. I don't recall having
accused Formosanus of being a "crusader" and I certainly haven't accused
Limitanus of it. I have specifically accused him of trolling. Different
words have different meanings. Kindly don't put your own words in my
mouth.
>
>> To assert that those who would despise their sacred oaths, abandon their
>> duty posts, and desert their friends and compatriots, all because some
>> things were not going entirely the way they wanted, can be described as
>> "the best of us" is ludicrous. If those were the actions of "the best of
>> us," we would be in a sorry state indeed. I thought highly of many of
>> those people until they showed their true colors. The best of us? Don't
>> make me laugh. In the old days, we would all have taken staves and beaten
>> them to death for desertion.
>
>Excuse me? Attacking people who aren't here to defend themselves from this
>vicious twisting of the truth is a little cheap.
Well, Draco, to make themselves conveniently absent from the field hardly
ties the hands of the rest of us, does it? As to "vicious twisting of the
truth," where is that occurring? Did not several of these people swear
sacred oaths to do the various duties they each undertook freely? Did
they not preemptorily abandon those duties in open contempt of those
oaths? If this is not fact, then please enlighten us as to your version
of the "truth" about their conduct. Note I did not say, whine to us about
how unappreciated and mistreated they were. Tell us how their leaving as
they did was true to the sacred oaths they swore.
>
>> On the other hand, if you are so certain that "the best of us" are gone,
>> why are you still here?
>
>Why don't you add "leave NR, so you can be backstabbed later in the same
>fashion"? This sort of anger makes me suspicious, I must say.
I did not say that because I did not intend that message, Draco - those
are your words, not mine. Do you find it so hard to criticize what I say
that you have to put other words in my mouth in order to argue against
your own words instead of against mine?

And where do you get off imputing anger to me? There is no anger in that
remark - only disgust.

You have a good mind and an artful tongue, Draco. Don't waste them on
causes that are not worthy of you. Your loyalty to your friends does you
credit, but it is carried too far when you twist my words and accuse me
of things I haven't expressed.

L. Sergius Aust.


certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re-intro
From:	Piparskeggr Ullarsson <catamount_grange@-------->
Date:	Sat, 07 Apr 2001 20:33:37 -0500

Hullo Marius!

Marius the Wanderer wrote:
>
> Ex papilio Luci Mari Peregrini omnes NovaRomanis s.p.d.
>
> Salvete omnes...
>
> (excision)
>
> Looking forward to making your (re)acquaintance,
> ***********************************************************
> Lucius Marius Peregrinus

You are well and fondly remembered in m Domus.

--
===========================================
In Amicus sub Fidelis, Benedicte Omnes!
- Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
Cives, Paterfamilias Gens Ulleria
My homestead
http://www.geocities.com/piparskegg/index.html



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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Taxes
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 7 Apr 2001 21:57:21 -0400

Salvete

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Christer Edling [mailto:tjalens.h@--------]
> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 5:06 AM
>
> I stand behind the Illustrus Propraetor Lucius Mauricius Procopious and
> others who have proposed something like: "I would prefer to see a system
> based on macronational GNP as suggested earlier on the main list. It seems
> simple and fair. (Could you please repost that data?) It was something
like
> 3X minimum hourly wage. Or the average annual income was divided by a
> certain number to get an annual tax rate for that macronation."

But... I don't understand how you can support that and at the same time say
in relation to the idea I put forth (which puts the decision in the hands of
the provincial governor, rather than mussing with macronational GNP),

> It is sound!

Could you explain further?

> I find this a good suggestion. Are we to retain the system for those who
> didn't vote in the last elections too. I think so myself!

Yes; putting those who don't pay taxes wouldn't have any impact on the
system for those who don't vote in the annual elections...

> Good idea! What are we going to "do", with those who don't pay provincial
> taxes. Should You be "punished" for not paying taxes or only for not
paying
> central taxes.

There wouldn't be any distinction; you either pay your combined taxes or you
don't. They would be collected in one sum, and then divided between the
province and central government afterwards.

Next year in the Forum!

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
ICQ: 106199729
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org




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Subject:	[novaroma] Wanderer
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Sun, 08 Apr 2001 02:08:28 -0000

Salve, Wanderer;

Welcome back to the Nova Roma Main List. I remember you well, or at least your shade by another name. I pray that you will sit in the shade by the well-head, under the grape-arbor. Rest your tired frame, and drink you fill of the cool water. Be at your ease, and be welcome!!!

Vale, Respectfully
Marcus Audens




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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Taxes
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 7 Apr 2001 22:31:32 -0400

Salve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: S. Apollonius Draco [mailto:hendrik.meuleman@--------]
> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 3:14 PM
>
> I think the current plan regarding taxation looks pretty well overall, but
I
> still strongly feel that taxes should be °at least° continental and
> preferredly provincial. I don't think a Chinese citizen would like to pay
up
> for a US organization that can spend the money to make NR grow and sponsor
> Roman events in America... meaning the Chinese citizen wouldn't get much
> back from what he paid up, except from being placed in a different
century.
>
> Perhaps if the taxes were regulated provincially or continentally, cives
> would a) be more willing to pay, because they won't have the feeling their
> money has "disappeared" b) be less worried about transaction costs and c)
> would be able to have more input on what happens with their money.

That is, of course, the whole point of the new proposal I made. All the
taxes collected over the baseline would be kept within the province. It is
simply up to the governor to determine how much that is. Thus, there is
indeed a huge amount of local control and discretion. I'm not quite sure
what you're objecting to...

> To
> regulate all financial stuff, each provincia could have a procurator.
> Britannia used to have one, and currently Gallia has one, too (me). This
> way, the propraetor wouldn't have to do all the work by himself, and each
> province has a relative freedom. A percentage of that taxation should of
> course go to the central treasury, but only on the condition that all of
NR
> all over the world will benefit, and not only a certain regio. For
example,
> the poll held in Britannia has shown that most of the people over there
> didn't like the taxation plan in its current state. Comments on this idea
> also appreciated!

The poll held in Britannia had nothing to do with the current proposal
(unless they held a poll yesterday that I didn't hear about!).

I must say I disagree wholeheartedly with the idea that there should be some
condition that "all of NR all over the world will benefit". Certain projects
will by their very nature take place in certain locales. Do you honestly
believe we shouldn't spend money underwriting an archaeological dig in Italy
because the money isn't benefitting our Citizens in Argentina? Do you think
we should write off Roman Days because it happens in Maryland, rather than
being a world-wide event? Come, now, young Draco... be realistic.

The current plan, I believe, lets money stay in the locale, but still brings
in revenue to the central government. The amounts are determined "in the
field" as it were, by the provincial governor, who doubtless has a better
idea of what the true conditions are among the cives than either our own
Senate or the CIA could. Plus, it has the bonus of decentralizing the
decision-making process; I would think it would be preferable to put
responsibility in the hands of governors, and at the same time give them a
mechanism to raise some funds to use specifically in their provincia.

Next year in the Forum!

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
ICQ: 106199729
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org




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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Old Business II: Resignation Edict
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 7 Apr 2001 23:05:58 -0400

Salve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: S. Apollonius Draco [mailto:hendrik.meuleman@--------]
> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 3:24 PM
>
> Opponents of this edict said that people who °really° want out simply
won't
> care for this edictum, while people who truly love Roma are being punished
> by this. This was and is a non-solution for a non-problem.

Do you perhaps mean "care about" rather than "care for"? It would make more
sense...

I do disagree that it's a non-problem, however. All too often, people think
they have to leave Nova Roma completely for some imagined slight they've
suffered or failing they have committed. Many times, the impetuous emotions
of the moment overcome clearer thought and consideration, and the decision
to leave is later regretted and re-thought. Indeed; this just happened in
two recent cases, and I must say that Nova Roma is much the better for those
individuals having reconsidered their decision to leave.

> Why would the Censores have power over the Senate in this matter? In fact,
> they are both Senatores, so even if 18 out of 20 Senatores vote in favour
of
> said citizen, the two Censores could still prevent that citizen from
> returning into the Senate. So I'd scrap the Censores from this paragraph.

Paragraph IV.A.1.d. of the Constitution does give the Censores the authority
to "add and remove names on that list [the Album Senatorium] according to
qualifications set by law". Remember that part of their job is to safeguard
the public honor, and this could be seen as an extension of that
responsibility (in a broad sense).

> "Contempt for the state" sounds, and I am sorry to say it, °very°
> authoritarian. However, I do think two paragraphs above are better, and
> truly offer a solution (for what is still a non-problem anyway) in case
some
> cives keep leaving and coming back. I'd change the "two years" to six
months
> though.

Would "contempt for the Republic" sound better? :-) Honestly I wouldn't get
so caught up in such semantics, and stop looking for authoritarianism where
it isn't to be found.

And I must say that I think you are viewing the question through the eyes of
a 17 year old. While two years might seem like an eternity to you right now,
eventually I think you'll come to understand that in the grand scheme of
things it's really not that long to wait for something in which you really,
truly believe. (Of course, if that was the case, why would one leave in the
first place? But that's the whole problem, of course...)

Next year in the Forum!

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
ICQ: 106199729
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org




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Subject:	[novaroma] Provincial Census
From:	V_Praetoria@--------
Date:	Sun, 08 Apr 2001 03:13:39 -0000

Avete Comiltones
Greetings to all my fellow cives. This message is intended for all
the cives of America Austroccidentalis, but I am posting here because
not all my cives have joined our group. For those of you in my
province, I encourage you all to join the provincial group, as I have
called for a provincial census. Since the removal of the last
Propraetor, many of the cives of our province have resigned, and as
the new Propraetor, I intend to strengthen America
Austroccidentalis. So please, respond to this letter, as it only
benefits you all. I am planning several events, but I need to find
out where to plan them. Only you can make all this possible. All
the census requires is that you identify yourself as a member and
what city and state you live in. With that information, I can begin
to make the arrangements for events. If you have any questions or
comments, feel free to let me know.

Pontius Sejanus Marius
Propraetor, America Austroccidentalis




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Subject:	[novaroma] Resignation Edict
From:	V_Praetoria@--------
Date:	Sun, 08 Apr 2001 03:19:10 -0000

Ave,
I agree with what Senator Germanicus is saying out the heat of the
moment forcing people to make rash decisions. As the Propraetor of a
province that just recently under went a major "civil war", I am
trying to restore order to America Austroccidentalis. I happened to
lose several good people who could have been a real asset to me. I
do believe something needs to be done regarding this matter before it
befalls another province.

Pontius Sejanus Marius
Propraetor, America Austroccidentalis




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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Re: Govenors Removed?
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 7 Apr 2001 23:22:35 -0400

Salvete

> -----Original Message-----
> From: LSergAust@-------- [mailto:LSergAust@--------]
> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 5:00 PM
>
> I agree with your proposal. Clarification in this area is needed. I am
> one of those who understood that when a governor was not prorogued, they
> were no longer governor.

I would point out that last month the Senate passed a Senatus Consultum
regarding the regulation of gubernatorial prorogation which answers this
particular question: "those [governors] who are not [prorogued] shall be
considered removed as of the Kalends of Martius". I don't think any further
clarification is really needed...

Next year in the Forum!

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
ICQ: 106199729
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org




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Subject:	[novaroma] Gone For The Day
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Sat, 7 Apr 2001 23:33:26 -0400 (EDT)

Salve, Citizens of Nova Roma;

For those who might have an interest, I will be gone all day Sunday to
Fort Warren (a pre-Civil War Masonry Fortification) onGeorge's Island
(Boston Islands State Park) for a site-walk to prepare for a Civil War
Reenactment Event in late July. I should be back late in the evening on
Sunday night.

Vale, Respectfully;
Marcus Audens

Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary




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Subject:	[novaroma] Hard lines? (Tax-related)
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 01:07:49 -0400

Salve,

I have been watching the discussions on taxation closely and I am pleased to
see that the basic idea of "we need to gather funds" appears to be agreed
upon already. That being said, I have a few thoughts to put forth that may,
or may not, appear rather "hard line" at the moment but which I feel we need
to address.

1. "Tax collectors": I have no idea what the proper term for such
individuals would be on a provincial or global level, so I hope no one gets
offended by this term. I believe it is imperative that ANYONE entrusted to
gather, distribute and track taxation be bonded or otherwise legally held
responsible in their macro nation for the money. I have been a member of an
International club whose former president is currently serving 5-7 in St.
Louis for embezzlement.

I understand that we will have our own laws and such regarding the
collectors, but those must be in concordance with the macro nations. To wit
(and please trust me this is not intended as a dig), much as I appreciate
Draco's willingness to serve in this capacity in his province, I do not
believe a 17/18 year old would be legally allowed to do so in most areas of
the world. Other factors aside from age, of course, come into play and I
think this is a key issue we need to address as we discuss any form of
taxation.

2. "Amount of taxation": While I understand the desire to tailor tax amounts
to some degree so as not to unduly affect certain regions, I think we need
to have a base rate and grant exemptions on a case by case basis. Most
international groups do not tailor their membership fees to local regions.
For one small example, if I wish to purchase a British wedding magazine here
in New Jersey, that magazine will cost (on average) about 2-3 dollars more
than an American one. The clerk at the book store does not calculate the
price based on my salary, my country of origin or the GNP. Likewise, I know
that an International subscription (considered outside the USA) to National
Geographic Magazine costs far more than a standard subscription. I can say
with relative confidence that the publishers do not factor in whether a
person subscribing from an impoverished area can really afford the magazine.

All that being said, I feel very strongly that we ought to have a set tax
across the board. I also feel there should be levels, to take into account
students and seniors and family memberships. But to try and calculate taxes
based on GNP and purchasing parity and other such factors needlessly muddies
the job of all tax collectors to an unbearable point.

3. "Citizens who do not pay": I suppose this is where I may seem most
*hard-line* of all. I, personally, believe that ALL citizens must pay a tax
if they wish to remain citizens. It has been suggested that those who
choose not to pay be placed in certain tribes and therefore not be given a
very loud voice in politics. That still allows them to subscribe to all of
our lists, participate in debates, run for office, etc. I have a real
problem with that. While I am very glad to see our numbers swell, I would
much prefer to have a nation of 100 active committed, participating cives
than 800, of which 700 sit back and contribute nothing. (Mind you, I do not
mean to imply we currently have 700 "non-doers".)

I believe if a person wishes to be a part of Nova Roma they ought to be
willing to put their money where their mouth is, just the same as any other
organization would require. Given that I already addressed the exceptions
to taxation above, I also feel comfortable saying this policy ought not turn
away the rare individual who *truly* cannot afford the tax but wants to be a
member. Let us be frank with ourselves.......we currently cannot even
obtain a voter turn-out of 50%. Yes, such a hard line on taxation might
drive some away, but if those who are driven away are among those who do not
even bother to vote at this point, are we really losing?

Well, there you have it........a few ideas for the masses to chew upon. :)
As the subject line reads, I know they may seem rather "hard-line", but
since I hadn't seen the thoughts tossed out for discussion yet I figured the
time has come. I look forward to productive discussion on the topics above.

Vale,
Priscilla Vedia Serena




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Keeping citizens interested (was Re: Conflict of Interest)
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sun, 08 Apr 2001 01:06:44 -0700

Ave,

My comments below:

Fortunatus wrote:
>
> Salvete Luci Corneli et Quirites
>
> > But, I think a way to overcome part of this is through the
> > establishment of a time honored Roman tradition of patron/client
> > relationship. I am not saying that we should follow every aspect of
> > what it was like in ancient rome..but more like a tutelage. Where a
> > newer member of Nova Roma is taken under the wing of an "old-timer"
> > and is taught what being in NR is about, how the political system
> > works, and why it works that way....etc.
>
> The problem with the patron-client relationship is that it is predicated
> upon an unequal transaction. The patron gives his or her advice,
> protection, and political aid in return for loyalty and political and
> other aid from the client. This is, essentially, influence peddling,
> and it is institutionalized corruption.

Well of course it is unequal. Here you have an old-timer who has been
in NR for a long time, knows the ropes, has the experience. And, here
you have a newbie. The one underlying aspect in this relationship is
trust. There must be trust between the oldtimer and newbie. This can
only happen in time. But, I think your statement is half correct.
Trust and Loyalty must work both ways. As the old-timer builds up clout
and respect, the newbie shares in that benefit as he/she climbs up the
Cursus Honorum, learns more about NR, and try to achieve any other goal
in Nova Roma. This isn't a type of relationship that will fade in a
year..but will hopefully last while.

> Surely such mentorship can be achieved through newer cives who are
> interested in running for office serving as scribae and accensi,
> preferably for a variety of magistrates, prior to actually standing for
> office. In this way, they can see what the duties of a given office are
> and learn how to fulfill them without incurring the kind of debt that
> clientela involves.

Sure, but even you must admit, that many of our citizens should have
some training even if they are not scribae or accensi. And, even those
citizens who are not interested about serving in politics could benefit
from learning from our older citizens. That way we will have two
avenues available to new citizens. Via scribae etc. And via a
patron/client relationship which will last undoubtedly longer than the
scribae position.
The one drawback between the scribae avenue, is it is for only one
year. whereas I definately see the patron/clientage relationship
lasting a much longer time frame since we, the citizens of Nova Roma are
going from one mindset to a completely new mindset. One year really
isn't enough to educate our new citizens what it really means to be a
Nova Roman. The other drawback I see about the scribae, is that they
will have duties they must do. As Nova Roma grows and develops our
responsibilities will undoubtedly double and triple....thus our reliance
on our scribes and other officials will increase. As this happens, the
ability for those new citizens who are serving in those positions to ask
questions and understand AND for our senior magistrates to answer those
questions and inquiries will lessen. This will not happen if one has a
Patron. For patrons can be magistrates, ex-magistrates or even not
politically orientated citizens.

Respectfully submitted,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

> Valete
> T Labienus Fortunatus
> --
> "People do not like to think. If one thinks, one must reach
> conclusions. Conclusions are not always pleasant."
> -Helen Keller
>
>
>
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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Egroup Challenge
From:	"Diana Meridia Aurelia" <diana_h@-------->
Date:	Sun, 08 Apr 2001 09:55:06 -0000

The usual way, Quinte, if you so desire - or shall I add you straight
away ?!
We'd certainly be proud to have you (quite apart from thus making our
lead even more pronounced).

Optime vale,
Diana M A


--- In novaroma@--------, "Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@h...>
wrote:
> How do I join!!!
>
> QS
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Diana Meridia Aurelia" <diana_h@-------->
> To: <novaroma@-------->
> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 12:10 PM
> Subject: [novaroma] Re: Egroup Challenge
>
>
> > Salve Quinte Sertori et Omnes,
> >
> > All I can say to that is this:
> > here's to Provincia Germania proudly entering the contest with 31
> > members to its provincial Egroup and an overall population of
> > currently 37 (growing every week).
> >
> > Any challengers ????
> >
> > Valete,
> > Diana Meridia Aurelia
> >
> > Moderatrix NRGermania
> > Scriba Praetoria
> > Materfamilias Gentis Meridiae
> >
> >
> > --- In novaroma@--------, "Quintus Sertorius" <quintus-sertorius@h...>
> > wrote:
> > > 5 Apre 2001
> > >
> > > Salve All
> > >
> > > I recently sent an email to my Provincial egroup proudly
> > proclaiming to them that our Provincial egroup was the largest in
all
> > NR! This is no longer the case, the largest Provincial egroup is
now
> > the one from America Austroccidentalis with 26 members! WE in
Canada
> > Occidentalis have only 23 on our egroup, but we only have a
> > Provincial population of 21 though! I am now challenging these
other
> > Provincias, especially those with big Provincial populations, to
join
> > their respective Provincial egroups and lets get involved and
knock
> > off the current Champs America Austroccidentalis!
> > >
> > > Vale
> > >
> > > Quintus Sertorius
> > >
> > > Queastor
> > > Nova Roma
> > > Propraetor
> > > Canada Occidentalis
> > >
> > > Join the Main List for Nova Roma
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/novaroma
> > >
> > > Join the egroup for Canada Occidentalis
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NR_CanOcc
> > >
> > > Join the egroup for the Quintus Sertorius of Old Rome
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sertorii
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >




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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Egroup Challenge
From:	"Diana Meridia Aurelia" <diana_h@-------->
Date:	Sun, 08 Apr 2001 10:06:30 -0000

Salve,
who ever said true Roman devotion to one's family is a thing of the
past ??
Thank you, Decime !!

Vale,
Diana Meridia Aurelia
Materfamilias


--- In novaroma@--------, ObsidianBat@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 4/7/01 11:15:05 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
> Salve,
> Sorry that my first post is this but I can't help it, YOU GO
MOM!!! ;)
>
> Valete
> Decimus Meridius Laevinus




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Hard lines? (Tax-related)
From:	Craig Stevenson <dougies@-------->
Date:	Sun, 08 Apr 2001 20:01:43 +0930

Ave all,

<snip>

1. "Tax collectors": I have no idea what the proper term for such
individuals would be on a provincial or global level, so I hope no one gets
offended by this term. I believe it is imperative that ANYONE entrusted to
gather, distribute and track taxation be bonded or otherwise legally held
responsible in their macro nation for the money.

Sura respondit:
I beleive we would call them publicani, no?

Vale,

Gaius Sentius Bruttius Sura

JusticeCMO wrote:

> Salve,
>
> I have been watching the discussions on taxation closely and I am pleased to
> see that the basic idea of "we need to gather funds" appears to be agreed
> upon already. That being said, I have a few thoughts to put forth that may,
> or may not, appear rather "hard line" at the moment but which I feel we need
> to address.
>
> 1. "Tax collectors": I have no idea what the proper term for such
> individuals would be on a provincial or global level, so I hope no one gets
> offended by this term. I believe it is imperative that ANYONE entrusted to
> gather, distribute and track taxation be bonded or otherwise legally held
> responsible in their macro nation for the money. I have been a member of an
> International club whose former president is currently serving 5-7 in St.
> Louis for embezzlement.
>
> I understand that we will have our own laws and such regarding the
> collectors, but those must be in concordance with the macro nations. To wit
> (and please trust me this is not intended as a dig), much as I appreciate
> Draco's willingness to serve in this capacity in his province, I do not
> believe a 17/18 year old would be legally allowed to do so in most areas of
> the world. Other factors aside from age, of course, come into play and I
> think this is a key issue we need to address as we discuss any form of
> taxation.
>
> 2. "Amount of taxation": While I understand the desire to tailor tax amounts
> to some degree so as not to unduly affect certain regions, I think we need
> to have a base rate and grant exemptions on a case by case basis. Most
> international groups do not tailor their membership fees to local regions.
> For one small example, if I wish to purchase a British wedding magazine here
> in New Jersey, that magazine will cost (on average) about 2-3 dollars more
> than an American one. The clerk at the book store does not calculate the
> price based on my salary, my country of origin or the GNP. Likewise, I know
> that an International subscription (considered outside the USA) to National
> Geographic Magazine costs far more than a standard subscription. I can say
> with relative confidence that the publishers do not factor in whether a
> person subscribing from an impoverished area can really afford the magazine.
>
> All that being said, I feel very strongly that we ought to have a set tax
> across the board. I also feel there should be levels, to take into account
> students and seniors and family memberships. But to try and calculate taxes
> based on GNP and purchasing parity and other such factors needlessly muddies
> the job of all tax collectors to an unbearable point.
>
> 3. "Citizens who do not pay": I suppose this is where I may seem most
> *hard-line* of all. I, personally, believe that ALL citizens must pay a tax
> if they wish to remain citizens. It has been suggested that those who
> choose not to pay be placed in certain tribes and therefore not be given a
> very loud voice in politics. That still allows them to subscribe to all of
> our lists, participate in debates, run for office, etc. I have a real
> problem with that. While I am very glad to see our numbers swell, I would
> much prefer to have a nation of 100 active committed, participating cives
> than 800, of which 700 sit back and contribute nothing. (Mind you, I do not
> mean to imply we currently have 700 "non-doers".)
>
> I believe if a person wishes to be a part of Nova Roma they ought to be
> willing to put their money where their mouth is, just the same as any other
> organization would require. Given that I already addressed the exceptions
> to taxation above, I also feel comfortable saying this policy ought not turn
> away the rare individual who *truly* cannot afford the tax but wants to be a
> member. Let us be frank with ourselves.......we currently cannot even
> obtain a voter turn-out of 50%. Yes, such a hard line on taxation might
> drive some away, but if those who are driven away are among those who do not
> even bother to vote at this point, are we really losing?
>
> Well, there you have it........a few ideas for the masses to chew upon. :)
> As the subject line reads, I know they may seem rather "hard-line", but
> since I hadn't seen the thoughts tossed out for discussion yet I figured the
> time has come. I look forward to productive discussion on the topics above.
>
> Vale,
> Priscilla Vedia Serena
>
>
>
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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] 1. Report 2. Proposal of Regula 3. Proposal of Plan
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 03:33:45 -0700

Salve Caeso Fabi;

Just a short note saying what an excellent provincial
report! Well-structured, detailed and easy to follow.
This will make a nice model for others to follow.

Great job!!!

Bene vale,
Oppius Flaccus Severus, Legatus America Boreoccidentalis Major
-----Original Message-----
From: Christer Edling [mailto:tjalens.h@--------]
Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 5:13 PM
To: novaroma@--------
Cc: ThuleNovaRoma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] 1. Report 2. Proposal of Regula 3. Proposal of Plan


REPORT
ABOUT THE STATE OF THE PROVINCIA THULE

8 April 2001
From: Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, Propraetor Thules

Salve All!

This is a report from the Provincia to the citizens of Thule. I send this
report, as I, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, Propraetor Thules has assumed the
Propraetorship of our Provincia as of 4th April 2001, but the New Official
Provincial Nova Roma presence will begin as of 15th April 2001, the same
day as my two founding Edictas (Regula and Plan) will be sanctioned and
published. This report will address the present state of our Provincia, and
what actions will be taken to organise it.

<snipped>




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Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Hard lines? (Tax-related)
From:	"Oppius Flaccus Severus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 03:48:44 -0700

Salvete Priscilla Vedia et Quiritibus;

Since this is partially a 'me too,' post I'll
keep it brief. I don't think this is a hard-line
approach at all. In fact, I've been advocating
many of the issues stated here for a while.

It could be further stated in this context, that people tend to
feel a stronger obligation to that in which their
pocketbook is inextricably tied. If one is vested
in anything; be it an organization or company, one
is much more likely to work toward the success of same.

Quirites; if we want to really grow at all and
become the substantive organization that many of
us want to see, it will take money. Non-profit
organizations require substantial funds to function
properly as do 'for profit' ones.

As a civis who has contributed actual money to Nova Roma,
I fully believe in the goals and tenets of our
constitution and mission statements and know that
continued financial support from all our citizens;
regardless of personal circumstance is needed
to grow. If we are all serious in this endeavor,
then sharing a few denarii with our great Respublica
will be done gladly.

Bene valete,
Oppius Flaccus Severus, Legatus America Boreoccidentalis Major
Sacerdos Neptunus
-----Original Message-----
From: JusticeCMO [mailto:justicecmo@--------]
Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2001 10:08 PM
To: novaroma@--------
Subject: [novaroma] Hard lines? (Tax-related)


Salve,

I have been watching the discussions on taxation closely and I am pleased to
see that the basic idea of "we need to gather funds" appears to be agreed
upon already. That being said, I have a few thoughts to put forth that may,
or may not, appear rather "hard line" at the moment but which I feel we need
to address.

<snipped>



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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Clientelism and Gens Recruiting
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 11:24:35 +0200

S. Apollonius Draco G. Cassio Nervae SPD

> I have to admit this conversation has me a little concerned, and I hope my
> concerns are baseless. But when Draco and anyone else who may agree with
him
> consider clientelism a danger, leading to corruption, doesn't this bother
you
> a bit? I have to ask myself what their goal is. Is it some sort of
> regulating what kind of business relationships we, as citizens, may enter
> into? Does Draco want to protect us from some kind of dangerous liason?
I
> hope not, and I hope I have misread his intentions. Because, as a free
man,
> I have no wish or need for such "protection". I am perfectly capable of
> choosing my associations myself, thank you very much.
>

I wasn't advocating some sort of protection programme for newbies. You're
right that everyone is his own man (or woman) and has the right to freely
choose his or her own loyalties in life. I wasn't trying to make people
sound stupid (although frankly people can be quite stupid from time to time,
but that's beside the point here), but especially regarding internet
friendships and/or loyalties, people can be misled easily. That is why I'm
so very precautious about this clientelism. It's halfway down loyalty and
friendship, and I'd prefer the latter if it were up to me, but if you're
stuck with a patronus who appears to be not your friend later on, then what
to do? You seek another patronus, angering your former one who has the power
to destroy your public reputation. If the relation is good, the benefits are
mutual, if not, the destruction is probably going to be much one-sided.

> This reminds me of a similar issue I saw in the taverna some time ago,
> perhaps early March. I only half-paid attention then, and frankly I can't
> even remember who was doing the talking,but the subject was about whether
or
> not it is wrong to actively recruit potential new citizens into your own
> gens. One guy thought it somehow wrong and corrupt. I disagree totally.
If
> someone wants a larger gens, why not invite or encourage people to join?
And
> what law does this break? I glanced through the laws in the tabularium,
and
> found none prohibiting this practice.
>
> The fellow who was opposed to gens-recruiting has something in common with
> those who are opposed to the clientage option. Both are wannabe social
> engineers, regulating the kind of associations and relationships we free
> citizens have. We ARE adults here, or at least most of us are, are we
not?
> We ARE capable of deciding for ourselves, aren't we?
>
> If Draco and the long forgotten person who was dead-set against gens
> recruiting are in fact advocating such regulating of our own social lives,
> then I really hope these guys are the minority. And I hope still more
that I
> am misreading their goals and that they have no such agenda for us.

Instituting clientelism, that is a regulation of social life! Merely being
opposed to it is not, imo. For the record: I'm not against convincing people
to join your gens, and I have no idea who that other person was. But it
depends on the situation, of course: I wouldn't do this with a prospective
citizen who is merely asking me information about citizenship. I might
suggest it, but I'd never try to "win him over".

Vale bene!
Draco




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Clientelism (a general comment)
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 11:34:18 +0200

Salve Senator Australice,

> >
> >> This is the second time you have made this preposterous statement. One
> >> can only think that you must be looking for excuses to repeat it
because
> >> you are trolling for a response. Let me oblige so that you won't have
to
> >> keep finding excuses to repeat that assertion ad infinitum.
> >>
> >
> >Not so long ago you accused Formosanus of being a crusader; now look what
> >you're doing.

> It escapes me, Draco - you tell me what I'm doing. I don't recall having
> accused Formosanus of being a "crusader" and I certainly haven't accused
> Limitanus of it. I have specifically accused him of trolling. Different
> words have different meanings. Kindly don't put your own words in my
> mouth.

You may not have °said° he was a crusader, but you did call him a destroyer
of the state (or something along those lines). Granted, that was during the
elections of last year, and everyone was tensed. I'm not telling you what
you're doing, I'm merely comparing you to people you so vehemently accused
of similar things (note: I said, similar, not the same).

> >> To assert that those who would despise their sacred oaths, abandon
their
> >> duty posts, and desert their friends and compatriots, all because some
> >> things were not going entirely the way they wanted, can be described as
> >> "the best of us" is ludicrous. If those were the actions of "the best
of
> >> us," we would be in a sorry state indeed. I thought highly of many of
> >> those people until they showed their true colors. The best of us? Don't
> >> make me laugh. In the old days, we would all have taken staves and
beaten
> >> them to death for desertion.
> >
> >Excuse me? Attacking people who aren't here to defend themselves from
this
> >vicious twisting of the truth is a little cheap.

> Well, Draco, to make themselves conveniently absent from the field hardly
> ties the hands of the rest of us, does it? As to "vicious twisting of the
> truth," where is that occurring? Did not several of these people swear
> sacred oaths to do the various duties they each undertook freely? Did
> they not preemptorily abandon those duties in open contempt of those
> oaths? If this is not fact, then please enlighten us as to your version
> of the "truth" about their conduct. Note I did not say, whine to us about
> how unappreciated and mistreated they were. Tell us how their leaving as
> they did was true to the sacred oaths they swore.

Here I think our viewpoints differ. I think their departure was not about
NR, nor was it about impersonal things such as an oath of office - things
they did respect. If they weren't "true" then please care to explain me why,
for example, Vado knew both Latin and ancient Greek, Piscinus was of pagan
Italic heritage and Livia did so much effort to put together face to face
meetings among Novaromani? This is much different from many so-called Romans
among us who swear their oath of office and remain passive for the rest of
the year, not showing a speck of Romanitas (or activity, for that matter) at
all. Now, you can say that activity does not equal Romanitas, and you'll be
right, but this is to show you that they felt no contempt for NR in se, but
had problems with some situations and persons here that they felt could not
be overcome, and were not worth the efforts to fight against. I'd be happy
to go into detail about this privately.

> >> On the other hand, if you are so certain that "the best of us" are
gone,
> >> why are you still here?
> >
> >Why don't you add "leave NR, so you can be backstabbed later in the same
> >fashion"? This sort of anger makes me suspicious, I must say.

> I did not say that because I did not intend that message, Draco - those
> are your words, not mine. Do you find it so hard to criticize what I say
> that you have to put other words in my mouth in order to argue against
> your own words instead of against mine?
>
> And where do you get off imputing anger to me? There is no anger in that
> remark - only disgust.

Disgust then. I found your speech at the end nearly implying that he should
leave just as well; you didn't say things litterally, but it was an
interpretation that was quite obvious in that context.

> You have a good mind and an artful tongue, Draco. Don't waste them on
> causes that are not worthy of you. Your loyalty to your friends does you
> credit, but it is carried too far when you twist my words and accuse me
> of things I haven't expressed.

Vale bene,
Draco




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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Old Business II: Resignation Edict
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 11:42:05 +0200

Salve, O Consul,

> > Opponents of this edict said that people who °really° want out simply
> won't
> > care for this edictum, while people who truly love Roma are being
punished
> > by this. This was and is a non-solution for a non-problem.
>
> Do you perhaps mean "care about" rather than "care for"? It would make
more
> sense...

Yes, I did mean that. As you know, English is not my native tongue.

> I do disagree that it's a non-problem, however. All too often, people
think
> they have to leave Nova Roma completely for some imagined slight they've
> suffered or failing they have committed. Many times, the impetuous
emotions
> of the moment overcome clearer thought and consideration, and the decision
> to leave is later regretted and re-thought. Indeed; this just happened in
> two recent cases, and I must say that Nova Roma is much the better for
those
> individuals having reconsidered their decision to leave.
>

The Exodus of March wasn't really regretted later, if you mean that one. I'm
awaiting examples of people who continually left and came back.

> > Why would the Censores have power over the Senate in this matter? In
fact,
> > they are both Senatores, so even if 18 out of 20 Senatores vote in
favour
> of
> > said citizen, the two Censores could still prevent that citizen from
> > returning into the Senate. So I'd scrap the Censores from this
paragraph.
>
> Paragraph IV.A.1.d. of the Constitution does give the Censores the
authority
> to "add and remove names on that list [the Album Senatorium] according to
> qualifications set by law". Remember that part of their job is to
safeguard
> the public honor, and this could be seen as an extension of that
> responsibility (in a broad sense).

True. But my example is still standing as an example of that inequal power
distrubution (at least, it's inequal in my opinion). Note: perhaps the law
could be changed?

> > "Contempt for the state" sounds, and I am sorry to say it, °very°
> > authoritarian. However, I do think two paragraphs above are better, and
> > truly offer a solution (for what is still a non-problem anyway) in case
> some
> > cives keep leaving and coming back. I'd change the "two years" to six
> months
> > though.

>
> Would "contempt for the Republic" sound better? :-) Honestly I wouldn't
get
> so caught up in such semantics, and stop looking for authoritarianism
where
> it isn't to be found.
>

I just said it sounded that way.

> And I must say that I think you are viewing the question through the eyes
of
> a 17 year old. While two years might seem like an eternity to you right
now,
> eventually I think you'll come to understand that in the grand scheme of
> things it's really not that long to wait for something in which you
really,
> truly believe. (Of course, if that was the case, why would one leave in
the
> first place? But that's the whole problem, of course...)

*raises an eyebrow* Why this constant reference to my age again? My
viewpoint on the length of two years °may° change, but I'm afraid it won't.
I don't feel this has anything to do with my age. The opponents of this
edictum had the same idea about this time period as me, if I recall it
correctly.

Vale bene,
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
Legatus Galliae Borealis,
Procurator Galliae,
Scriba Aedilis Plebis,
Lupercus Fabianus
Coryphaeus Sodalitatis Musarum,
Musaeus Collegii Eratus,
Musaeus Collegii Uraniae
Triumvir Sodalitatis Latinitatis
Vainqueur, ICQ# 32924725
Darkling_Crawler, Yahoo IM






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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Clientelism (a general comment)
From:	"S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sun, 8 Apr 2001 12:02:59 +0200

Salve Oppi Flacce,

> (noooo Quirites, you're not rid of me yet!)
>
> OFS: I hope not mi Draco -debates would be boring
> without you! :-) You're not rid of me either :-)
>

*smirks* Glad to hear that :).

> Draco writes:
> You are reversing the situation. It's not because my relations with the
good
> Censor aren't very good that I disagree with this.
>
> OFS: No problem Draco -for the record, I did not intend to imply,
> nor did I infer directly from what you yourself said that your
> comments had anything directly to do with Sulla. That particular
> comment was a direct response to Manius Villius Limitanus, who
> seemed to be trawling for one as L. Sergius suggested; and got
> one. It was Mani that made the direct personal attack. Your
> comments on the other hand were general regarding the idea
> itself.
>

Agreed, but "usual suspects" was plural.

(snipped)

> So -for the record, there is no personal *grudge* or anything held
> on my behalf towards those that left -on an individual basis.
> It is simply because they left *as a collective,* and invoked
> some brief chaos and instability in their wake (as I believe
> must have been their intention,) then they deserve to be viewed
> as a collective. For those of us who do value our citizenship
> and stick it out through all the good *and* bad times, watching
> people who acting as a collective turn on the Respublica
> like that will never be looked upon favorably by me. Period.
>

They made the balance of good and bad for themselves in NR, and then decided
to leave. They'd stuck around long enough to make that balance for
themselves.

> I think perhaps a key difference between some of us that look
> differently upon on the matter is that there are those who
> look to separate an individual from a collective action and
> those who think that individuals deciding to operate as a single
> unit be thusly addressed. My opinions of course fall towards
> the latter. Intentions, feelings, state of health and related
> concerns matter not to me in a collective action.
>
> And also for the record, it should be remembered that those
> leaving threw plenty of grenades behind their backs as they
> departed as well.

You're right, I didn't entirely agree with this as well.

> Draco writes:
> There were positive aspects in slavery as well. I simply think the bad
> possibilites in this are outweighing the good ones.
>
> OFS: Then that's fine Draco, we can disagree on that as well.
> You seem to want to find potential for evil and corruption behind
> every corner. With all due respect, this is not a discussion of slavery
and
> *slavery,* has nothing to do with a productive client/patron
> relationship; especially when it is mutually beneficial AND it's
> done in the manner of an 'apprenticeship,' which is the
> context in which it was trying to be discussed in the
> first place. Consul Germanicus, Praetor Fabius and others
> have already spoken to the actual practices and positive
> aspects and I have nothing to further to add to what
> has already been said there.

Of course, there's a difference between slavery and clientelism. But I find
the possible bad consequences of clientelism (abuse of trust, corruption,
nepotism) to be outweighing the good consequences (friendship, loyalty,
experience) still. Of course, as Nerva says, it's a citizen's right to
choose for himself, but I for one will never be someone's cliens, nor will I
be someone's patronus.

> Draco Writes:
> There's a difference between running away and simply taking a different
> course. Tutelage is in itself a good thing, and would work quite well in
the
> real world, but internet communication, as it is based on even more trust,
> lends itself to larger forms of abuse than real-world-trust.
>
> OFS: Ah, but tutelage in itself *is* what is being discussed.
> A time-honored tradition in Roma Mater and regardless of efforts
> to give it an out-of-hand negative spin, also had positive aspects.
> I do agree that the Internet-medium is much more complex in some
> ways to manage the various nuances of communication. I've spoken
> on this before. Also, having advocated real-world meetings and phone
> discussions I will grant you that for client/patron/tutelage to
> be successful, equitable and beneficial to both parties involved;
> then real and personal communication must accompany the written/e-mail
> forms of communication. Trust is complex in *any* relationship, no
> matter what the variety and nature of the relationship is.
> Though I haven't been completely through all my mail yet today,
> I believe that Nerva addressed this pretty well and I have nothing
> much further to add.
>

I agree with your reasoning above. But if Cliens X resides in let's say
Saudi Arabia, and Patronus Y resides in Alaska, there will be problems.

(snipped)

> Draco writes:
> Point is; it's hard to have the good things without the bad things on
> a certain aspect. If you want to have a car that can drive say past the
> speed of sound, you have a great security risk. You can also opt not have
> that super fast car at all, to avoid getting (pretty likely) killed in a
> crash one day.
>
> OFS: I'm not sure I completely follow your reasoning here,
> but I think (correct me if I'm wrong,) you're saying that we
> should only want to ever see the absolute 'good' things without
> any of the nasty bad stuff. Well, the 'good and bad' might be
> a better topic for kicking off some wanted activity on the
> Philosophy list; but as far as *real life* goes, there's always
> 'good' and 'bad' inher