Subject:	[novaroma] Sprachprobleme in der Nova Roma
From:	"Herr Schäfer" <schaefer.paxromana@-------->
Date:	Sat, 6 Jan 2001 02:06:04 +0100 (CET)

Caution - infringement of the law!!!!!

Salve Citizens of the Nova Roma, Salve
Senator Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix,

Salve Bürger der Nova Roma, Salve Sena-
tor Lucius Cornelius Sulla,

die Wahlen in der Nova Roma sind mitt-
lerweile Geschichte. Im Vorfeld dieser
wichtigen Wahlen wurden viele Versprech-
ungen gemacht. Soweit es mir möglich war, Euere unzähligen, in der eng-lischen Sprache verfaßten Wahlver-sprechungen zu entziffern, war das Sprachproblem in der Nova Roma ein "angeblich" wichtiges Thema. Leider ist davon heute in Eueren Mitteilungen nichts mehr zu lesen. Wertvolle In-formationen, Fragen und Ausführungen sind für viele Bürger der Nova Roma, vor allem in den europäischen
Provinzen, nicht nachvollziehbar, weil
es hier eben mehr Sprachen gibt, als nur
die Englische. Wieviele Bürger können
ihr wertvolles kontinental-europäisches Wissen über die römische Geschichte den anderen Bürgern der Nova Roma nicht mitteilen, wieviele Fragen können nicht gestellt werden? Ich gebe zu bedenken, daß gerade die europäischen Bürger der Nova Roma mehr Berührungspunkte mit der glorreichen Geschichte des römischen Imperiums haben, als anderswo. In unseren europäischen Ländern befinden sich die römischen Stätten, Villen, Bauwerke und Tempel. Hier ist Rom allgegenwärtig. Was haben dagegen, mit Verlaub, die amerikanischen Provinzen vorzuweisen?
(dieser Satz führt wahrscheinlich zur
Ausbürgerung aus der Nova Roma).
Also, liebe Vertreter des Volkes der
Nova Roma, laßt Euch etwas einfallen,
damit auch die nicht englischsprachigen
Bürger Europas an dem Geschehen in der
Nova Roma teilhaben können! Bei uns in
Europa ist das Erbe des Imperium Romanum
allgegenwärtig. Ich selbst brauche in
meiner saarländischen Heimat nicht weit
zur reisen, um römische Stätten be- suchen zu können, in denen man die
Geister unserer verstorbenen gallo-römischen Vorfahren spüren kann. Unsere Erde ist voller Zeugnisse römischen Schaffens und römischer Kunst. Strengt Euch also an, Volksvertreter des Volkes der Nova Roma, eine Lösung für das Sprachproblem zu finden. Schließlich ist Europa - und somit auch die Provinz Germania - unzweifelhaft das ange-stammte Territorium des Imperium Romanum, und mit Verlaub gesagt,
nicht Amerika. Es sind gerade die Ab-
weichungen von der Norm, die das Leben so interessant machen. Daher, zur Abwechslung auch mal eine Mitteilung in
Deutscher Sprache - sozusagen als Pro-
test gegen die englischsprachliche Ver-
einheitlichung und zur Wahrung der
sprachlichen Vielfalt in unserer euro-
päischen Heimat und zur Erhaltung unserer wertvollen deutschen Sprache, welche vor nicht all zu langer Zeit die Sprache der Wissenschaft war und in manchen Bereichen auch heute noch ist. Ich stelle es Euch anheim, meinen Beitrag nach Euerem Gutdünken zu beurteilen und gegebenenfalls die entsprechenden Sanktionen zu treffen.

Das angestammte Territorium des Im-
perium Romanum ist nunmal Europa - und nicht Amerika. Und gerade deshalb sollte
man in der Nova Roma die anderen europäischen Sprachen nicht vernach-
lässigen.

Vale!

Caius Valerius Opilio

Provinz Germanien

VI. Januar des Jahres MMDCCLIV (ad urbe condita).

--

Spitzenhandy ein Jahr ohne Grundgebühr! Zahlen Sie zwölf Monate
keine und danach 9,95 DM für das Ericsson T10s inkl. Ledertasche
und portabler Freisprecheinrichtung.
Alles zum Weihnachtspreis von DM 0.- http://handy.freenet.de

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Amend the age limit law
From:	Piparskegg UllRsson <catamount_grange@-------->
Date:	Fri, 05 Jan 2001 18:39:42 -0600

Avete Omnes,

A comment and suggestion on the age limit issue.

I know it isn't popular to refer to such, but, most every macro-nation of consequence does limit
participation in elective office by limiting the age of obtaining the franchise to vote and in some
cases the ages of obtaining the privilege of running for office. Does this excise talented underage
people, of course.

To bring in a personal anecdote: I run the gun counter in a large sporting goods store. I have
some very accomplished hunters and non-hunting sportsmen who work for me. I know that some of my
young people have more knowledge and experience than many of my customers 2 or 3 times their age.
They get passed by due to their young faces and customers come to me because of the grey in the
muzzle. Fair, no.

Perhaps, in seeking legitimacy for our government and state from others beyond our nation, we need
to acknowledge this facet of human nature.
No matter how talented a, for example, 16 year old Tertius Vergillianus Genius may be, a 16 year old
Consul, Senator, Censor or such will likely be thought of lightly outside our community. Tertius
Vergillianus may, on the other hand, make the best Aedile or Quæstor Nova Roma has or ever will see
(much better than a 50 year old Quintus Inutilis).

Perhaps we should look at the magistracies and their potential for dealings with other nations, and
evaluate age limits in this light.

--
===========================================
In Amicus sub Fidelis, Benedicte Omnes!
- Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
Cives, Paterfamilias Gens Ulleria
My homestead
http://www.geocities.com/piparskegg/index.html
Nova Roma website
http://www.novaroma.org/main.html
Sodalis pro Coqueror et Coquus - Dominus Sodalis
http://www.egroups.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Re: Amend the age limit law
From:	Val Kotas <valkat@-------->
Date:	Fri, 05 Jan 2001 17:54:13 -0800

Think about this perspective:

A young person physical age maybe 12, 14, or 17

A young person in character may have the role of a 35 year old.

I am a female; have exceptions been made to value or at least considered my
comments? Or do I have to express myself through the male head of my family?


--NEW CITIZEN,
Valeria Sempronia Lucilla




> From: Piparskegg UllRsson <catamount_grange@-------->
> Organization: Catamount Grange
> Reply-To: novaroma@--------
> Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 18:39:42 -0600
> To: novaroma@--------
> Subject: [novaroma] Re: Amend the age limit law
>
> Avete Omnes,
>
> A comment and suggestion on the age limit issue.
>
> I know it isn't popular to refer to such, but, most every macro-nation of
> consequence does limit
> participation in elective office by limiting the age of obtaining the
> franchise to vote and in some
> cases the ages of obtaining the privilege of running for office. Does this
> excise talented underage
> people, of course.
>
> To bring in a personal anecdote: I run the gun counter in a large sporting
> goods store. I have
> some very accomplished hunters and non-hunting sportsmen who work for me. I
> know that some of my
> young people have more knowledge and experience than many of my customers 2 or
> 3 times their age.
> They get passed by due to their young faces and customers come to me because
> of the grey in the
> muzzle. Fair, no.
>
> Perhaps, in seeking legitimacy for our government and state from others beyond
> our nation, we need
> to acknowledge this facet of human nature.
> No matter how talented a, for example, 16 year old Tertius Vergillianus Genius
> may be, a 16 year old
> Consul, Senator, Censor or such will likely be thought of lightly outside our
> community. Tertius
> Vergillianus may, on the other hand, make the best Aedile or Quæstor Nova Roma
> has or ever will see
> (much better than a 50 year old Quintus Inutilis).
>
> Perhaps we should look at the magistracies and their potential for dealings
> with other nations, and
> evaluate age limits in this light.
>
> --
> ===========================================
> In Amicus sub Fidelis, Benedicte Omnes!
> - Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
> Cives, Paterfamilias Gens Ulleria
> My homestead
> http://www.geocities.com/piparskegg/index.html
> Nova Roma website
> http://www.novaroma.org/main.html
> Sodalis pro Coqueror et Coquus - Dominus Sodalis
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq
>
>
>
>

Subject:	[novaroma] State of the Province -America Boreoccidentalis and related topics<long>
From:	"Oppius Flaccus" <oppiusflaccus@-------->
Date:	Fri, 5 Jan 2001 18:32:39 -0800

Salve Omnes,

In one of my relatively few political-centric postings, I
feel it is necessary to post a 'state of the union' if you
will regarding my province. Two initial warnings: it is
somewhat long and not very pleasant. This is not intended
as a negative against Nova Roma in general, or any other
cives in particular. It is being sent as a unblushingly
honest statement of the province and with some suggestions
for remedying the current situation.

As mentioned in my previous post today, America Boreoccidentalis
is in an advanced state of decay and may or may not be salvageable
in its current state. (More on this later.) After beating my head
against a wall for the past few weeks trying to reach *anybody*
in the province, (excepting Procopious and Marcus Cornelius
Felix -see below) I had a phone conversation with the current
Legatus. (Marcus Cornelius Felix) The results of this conversation
were extremely discouraging to say the least and highlighted some
significant issues; particularly in the way that communications
are currently conducted within Nova Roma.

The conversation painted a bleak picture of both the past and
current state of the province. I had initiated the phone conversation
at the recommendation of Censor Sulla in response to my queries
regarding contact of other cives in my province. I will summarize
the provincial portion of the discussion as follows:

1-Marcus Cornelius doesn't possess the time, money or authority
to deal with provincial issues outside of the immediate
Portland, OR area.

2-Most of the cives in the province are well below the current
age limits for magistrates, as defined in the constitution. Additionally
there
are few known cives that have the financial or time availability
means to accomplish anything at the official levels.

3-The cives in the province subscribe to none of the main
Nova Roma lists, but apparently are active in informal
chat venues. There are a grand total of (2) subscribers
to our provincial mailing list.

4-Because current cives have no access to the e-mail addresses
of any other cives (excepting published addresses of
of magistrates, Pontiffs and those cives posting to one of
the public lists,) I had no reasonable hope of getting
in touch with any other cives in the province. I was further
told that I would have to become governor even to
gain access to e-mail addresses! (More on this later.)

5-Marcus Cornelius offered to announce the formation of
the America Boreoccidentalis e-groups list, if and only
if he could be added to the list transparently. (Without
going through the manual e-groups 'join' process.) As
I am not the list owner, the best I could do was pass
this request on to the cive in charge of that list,
whom has seemed to disappear.

6-The only hope out of this predicament is for someone
to step forward, become the sanctioned governor and
do some massive reorganization.

Further, I've been told that I can't join a more
'happening' province, as I don't physically reside there. Currently,
there are *three* cives in America Boreoccidentalis listed
as residing in New York, and one listed as living in
VA! A Censor stated that this was being changed, but in the
meantime I was out of luck other than perhaps joining
the mailing lists of other provinces. (A possible
thought actually.

I do agree that a strong governor is possibly the *only* way
that anything will ever happen here. I have expressed
a willingness to at least consider it, but still have yet
to receive the information on the governorship that I was promised
several days ago. It still seems a bit extreme though to
have to become a governor JUST to communicate with other
provincial cives.

My several week ordeal with the issues above, has come to a close.
Either we can come together with some solutions to alleviate this
situation, or personally I'll just have to give up on it entirely
and hope that some of the proposed national events such as 'Rubicon'
come to fruition. I also want to address some of the above and related
issues more fully:

1-Personally, I think that all cives should have the right to
contact one another via e-mail. NOTE that I'm not at all suggesting
that we post everyone's address on the main page which is public,
or that we are given any information beyond a citizen's full
Roman name and an e-mail address for contact. My suggestion is that
e-mail addresses for citizens become available AFTER a citizenship
application has been approved. Once someone is verified and approved,
then they are provided with a username and password to access
possibly a secured area of the Album Gentium which lists the known
e-mail addresses for each cive.

2-Citizenship applications should include a phone call to the prospective
candidate to validate the phone number, that they are who they say
they are. This will also help validate that cives are matched to phone
numbers, matched to addresses implying the basic capabilities to
maintain citizenship in NR. Additionally, the citizen's e-mail
address should be tested with a required response for further
validation. In short, citizenship has to become more meaningful
and worthy of our great nation.

3-Institute minimum 'property' qualifications for elected AND appointed
magistrates. Let me be clear what is meant here: what I mean by
'property qualifications' is that a cive have the time and the
*physical means* of carrying out their elected or appointed duty.
By this, the individual should possess a phone for instance. (With the
capability of being able to make long distance calls when needed.) The
individual should have X amount of time per day, week, month,
whatever to carry out their duties. The individual should have full
access to a computer, *whether or not* they actually own one or not.
(Churches, libraries, community colleges, NFP groups, etc. all can
provide some level of computer access to those without.

4-To expound upon some recent posts proposing group-level organization;
and in particularly to something that Formosanus eloquently stated
earlier today: The Internet and its related communications mechanisms
are inherently prone to misinterpretation. While the organization and
structure of our great nation dictates a large degree of electronic
communication, it is only a one-dimensional channel at best and MUST
be augmented with good ol' physical interaction and communication.
This includes both phone contact and physical gatherings at local/
provincial/national levels. We need to know one another and must
be able to put faces and personalities with the plethora of electronic
content swirling around. Having access to the mail addresses
of cives can facilitate such gatherings. Another inherent weakness of
electronic
communications is that it makes it extremely easy to delete
undesirable communications, ignore them entirely or state that
they were never received. I think we've probably all been guilty
of that at one time or another, certainly including myself.

5-I propose that a chat be established in the coming days or weeks
with all interested parties to come up with some creative solutions
to the provincial and communications issues.

Well, thank you for sticking with this post to the end. As I finish
these final few lines, I have just heard back from Lucius Mauricius
Procopious
who has been out with a family situation, but will be back in a few days
or weeks. My best wishes to him and his wife. Maybe between us and any other
interested cives, we can get the province on more stable footing.

Vale bene,
-Oppius Flaccus Severus

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] State of the Province -America Boreoccidentalis and related topics<long>
From:	gmvick32@--------
Date:	Fri, 05 Jan 2001 20:07:16 -0700

Salve, Oppius Flaccus:

I am sorry to hear things are looking so bleak in your province. For what it's
worth, I have been in a similarly frustrated position myself. I, too, was told
the only way to get provincial e-mails was to become governor....it's one of the
things that drove me on to do so, given that I'm strongly interested in local
meetings, and after about 2 months have yet to see the promised e-mail
addresses. Despite that, we are making headway here.

For what it's worth, I agree with you. It's got to be easier to locate other
cives than it presently is. I think the current state of affairs re email
availability is discouraging to community.

I think you're touching on some very valid points which need to be taken up for
consideration. One thing I am doing is forwarding this on to the Limes
Cooperation, which is where provincial propraetors who have joined can discuss
common approaches to provincial issues.

I would encourage you NOT to give it all up for lost. If it would help, please
consider yourself a "member in spirit, if not fact", of my province, America
Austroccidentalis (we are just a bit east and south of you). Please feel free to
contact me at any time with any issues as though *I* were your propraetrix, and
I will do my best to assist you however I can.

Salve,
Livia Cornelia Aurelia
Propraetrix, Am. Austroccidentalis



Oppius Flaccus wrote:

> Salve Omnes,
>
> In one of my relatively few political-centric postings, I
> feel it is necessary to post a 'state of the union' if you
> will regarding my province. Two initial warnings: it is
> somewhat long and not very pleasant. This is not intended
> as a negative against Nova Roma in general, or any other
> cives in particular. It is being sent as a unblushingly
> honest statement of the province and with some suggestions
> for remedying the current situation.
>
> As mentioned in my previous post today, America Boreoccidentalis
> is in an advanced state of decay and may or may not be salvageable
> in its current state. (More on this later.) After beating my head
> against a wall for the past few weeks trying to reach *anybody*
> in the province, (excepting Procopious and Marcus Cornelius
> Felix -see below) I had a phone conversation with the current
> Legatus. (Marcus Cornelius Felix) The results of this conversation
> were extremely discouraging to say the least and highlighted some
> significant issues; particularly in the way that communications
> are currently conducted within Nova Roma.
>
> The conversation painted a bleak picture of both the past and
> current state of the province. I had initiated the phone conversation
> at the recommendation of Censor Sulla in response to my queries
> regarding contact of other cives in my province. I will summarize
> the provincial portion of the discussion as follows:
>
> 1-Marcus Cornelius doesn't possess the time, money or authority
> to deal with provincial issues outside of the immediate
> Portland, OR area.
>
> 2-Most of the cives in the province are well below the current
> age limits for magistrates, as defined in the constitution. Additionally
> there
> are few known cives that have the financial or time availability
> means to accomplish anything at the official levels.
>
> 3-The cives in the province subscribe to none of the main
> Nova Roma lists, but apparently are active in informal
> chat venues. There are a grand total of (2) subscribers
> to our provincial mailing list.
>
> 4-Because current cives have no access to the e-mail addresses
> of any other cives (excepting published addresses of
> of magistrates, Pontiffs and those cives posting to one of
> the public lists,) I had no reasonable hope of getting
> in touch with any other cives in the province. I was further
> told that I would have to become governor even to
> gain access to e-mail addresses! (More on this later.)
>
> 5-Marcus Cornelius offered to announce the formation of
> the America Boreoccidentalis e-groups list, if and only
> if he could be added to the list transparently. (Without
> going through the manual e-groups 'join' process.) As
> I am not the list owner, the best I could do was pass
> this request on to the cive in charge of that list,
> whom has seemed to disappear.
>
> 6-The only hope out of this predicament is for someone
> to step forward, become the sanctioned governor and
> do some massive reorganization.
>
> Further, I've been told that I can't join a more
> 'happening' province, as I don't physically reside there. Currently,
> there are *three* cives in America Boreoccidentalis listed
> as residing in New York, and one listed as living in
> VA! A Censor stated that this was being changed, but in the
> meantime I was out of luck other than perhaps joining
> the mailing lists of other provinces. (A possible
> thought actually.
>
> I do agree that a strong governor is possibly the *only* way
> that anything will ever happen here. I have expressed
> a willingness to at least consider it, but still have yet
> to receive the information on the governorship that I was promised
> several days ago. It still seems a bit extreme though to
> have to become a governor JUST to communicate with other
> provincial cives.
>
> My several week ordeal with the issues above, has come to a close.
> Either we can come together with some solutions to alleviate this
> situation, or personally I'll just have to give up on it entirely
> and hope that some of the proposed national events such as 'Rubicon'
> come to fruition. I also want to address some of the above and related
> issues more fully:
>
> 1-Personally, I think that all cives should have the right to
> contact one another via e-mail. NOTE that I'm not at all suggesting
> that we post everyone's address on the main page which is public,
> or that we are given any information beyond a citizen's full
> Roman name and an e-mail address for contact. My suggestion is that
> e-mail addresses for citizens become available AFTER a citizenship
> application has been approved. Once someone is verified and approved,
> then they are provided with a username and password to access
> possibly a secured area of the Album Gentium which lists the known
> e-mail addresses for each cive.
>
> 2-Citizenship applications should include a phone call to the prospective
> candidate to validate the phone number, that they are who they say
> they are. This will also help validate that cives are matched to phone
> numbers, matched to addresses implying the basic capabilities to
> maintain citizenship in NR. Additionally, the citizen's e-mail
> address should be tested with a required response for further
> validation. In short, citizenship has to become more meaningful
> and worthy of our great nation.
>
> 3-Institute minimum 'property' qualifications for elected AND appointed
> magistrates. Let me be clear what is meant here: what I mean by
> 'property qualifications' is that a cive have the time and the
> *physical means* of carrying out their elected or appointed duty.
> By this, the individual should possess a phone for instance. (With the
> capability of being able to make long distance calls when needed.) The
> individual should have X amount of time per day, week, month,
> whatever to carry out their duties. The individual should have full
> access to a computer, *whether or not* they actually own one or not.
> (Churches, libraries, community colleges, NFP groups, etc. all can
> provide some level of computer access to those without.
>
> 4-To expound upon some recent posts proposing group-level organization;
> and in particularly to something that Formosanus eloquently stated
> earlier today: The Internet and its related communications mechanisms
> are inherently prone to misinterpretation. While the organization and
> structure of our great nation dictates a large degree of electronic
> communication, it is only a one-dimensional channel at best and MUST
> be augmented with good ol' physical interaction and communication.
> This includes both phone contact and physical gatherings at local/
> provincial/national levels. We need to know one another and must
> be able to put faces and personalities with the plethora of electronic
> content swirling around. Having access to the mail addresses
> of cives can facilitate such gatherings. Another inherent weakness of
> electronic
> communications is that it makes it extremely easy to delete
> undesirable communications, ignore them entirely or state that
> they were never received. I think we've probably all been guilty
> of that at one time or another, certainly including myself.
>
> 5-I propose that a chat be established in the coming days or weeks
> with all interested parties to come up with some creative solutions
> to the provincial and communications issues.
>
> Well, thank you for sticking with this post to the end. As I finish
> these final few lines, I have just heard back from Lucius Mauricius
> Procopious
> who has been out with a family situation, but will be back in a few days
> or weeks. My best wishes to him and his wife. Maybe between us and any other
> interested cives, we can get the province on more stable footing.
>
> Vale bene,
> -Oppius Flaccus Severus

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Uncontested elections
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Fri, 5 Jan 2001 22:31:49 -0800 (PST)

Salvete!

--- Flavius Vedius Germanicus
<germanicus@--------> wrote:

> One of the weaknesses of our current election
> process which was pointed up
> in our most recent elections, is the possibility
> that a candidate for office
> who is running unopposed might still not win,
> because he or she fails to
> gain a majority of a tribe or century. In our last
> elections, this happened
> to several candidates for Quaestor.
>
> I would like to propose a new law to the effect that
> individuals who have
> announced themseves as candidates for office, for
> which there is no contest
> after a given period of time, may assume office
> without the necessity of
> undergoing a formal election (assuming they pass all
> the other
> qualifications). This only makes sense to me, as
> going through the election
> process is somewhat arduous for the magistrates
> involved, and it seems
> wasteful to go through it when the outcome is
> literally known at the outset.

Although I esteem you greatly for your leadership and
wisdom, I do not agree with your proposal. I do not
feel that a candidate should be elected merely for
placing their name in the running. I also disagree
that it is a weakness in our system that two
candidates for the quaestership were not elected.

Your first and second paragraphs contradict each
other. There is no absolute guarantee of victory in
our elections. In order to win, the candidate must
sway either ONE century or ONE tribe (depending on the
office sought). Two candidates for quaester did not
do that and were not elected*.

I would also submit to you that if the "the election
process is somewhat arduous for the magistrates
involved", they will find the offices they earn even
more arduous. If they are not up to the election,
they are certainly not up to the job. I cannot
believe that the election process will keep people
from running for office...in fact, in another debate
we're having right now, we're asking whether why
teenagers can't run for office. (This does not mean
that our electoral debates are not overly bitter and
personal, but it seems office-holding in NovaRoma
subjects one to this, as well.)

[*I want to repeat what I have said before...I bear no
ill will to those who were not elected to the
quaestership, I salute them for setting an example for
us by running for office, and wish them the best.]

> If this does sound agreeable to the People, I have
> two questions that go
> along with it. First, how long should the waiting
> period be after someone
> stands for a vacant office, for someone else to
> contest that office (I would
> suggest either thirty days or the passing of two
> market days)?

This is an interesting point, related to one of mine.
As rogator in the last election, I was surprised to
learn that there was no cut-off date to announce one's
candidacy. I would like to an ending of announcing of
candidacies simultaneous with the beginning of voting.
Should your proposal pass, this should also be the
time for that.

> And second, should such a law be made retroactive to
> the last magisterial
> election (which would, in effect, allow all of
> December's candidates for
> Quaestor to assume office, even those who failed to
> win a tribe)?

I hope not. An election was held, fairly and in
compliance with our Constitution. It is not right to
make laws retroactive to change that election. This
will put us on the slippery slope to tyranny (if we
can change the results of one election ex post facto,
we can change the results of others when the results
don't appeal to us).

> If we reach a consensus, I could foresee calling
> this issue to a vote this
> month (but naturally there is no rush; we should
> take all the time we need
> to talk such things through).

I hope you will accept my comments, which are intended
in a constructive way, and that the debate will be
joined by others who can provide comment.

Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus

=====
LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839

"It's what you learn after you know it all that counts." --Jean Rostand

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Reconciliations
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Fri, 5 Jan 2001 23:14:34 -0800 (PST)

Salve!

--- "M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@--------> wrote:

> I think that the discussion of Vado has made very
> clear how
> unacceptible it is to try to impose military-style
> thinking on a
> civil society.

What repulses you about the military? Perhaps the
face-to-face meetings are a good idea, so you can see
that military people are civil, too.

Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus

=====
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HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Amend the age limit law (was Re: Draco's Candidacy)
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Fri, 5 Jan 2001 23:38:49 -0800 (PST)

Salve!

--- "S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
wrote:
> As requested, here are the full details... The old
> lex as well as my new
> amended model.

An excellent proposal. It does not (at least I didn't
see it) allow for exceptions. Do you feel there
should be any? I have no problem with exceptions
(waivers), so long as they are requested and cleared
by the Senate, and that fact published on the main
list (which serves as an official record for us) prior
to the election.

Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus



=====
LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839

"It's what you learn after you know it all that counts." --Jean Rostand

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Local Groups (long)
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Sat, 6 Jan 2001 00:46:29 -0800 (PST)

Salvete!

Flavius Vedius Germanicus <germanicus@-------->
wrote:

> One of the ideas that I've been discussing recently
> in the chat room with
> various Cives has been the establishment of local
> groups of Nova Roman
> citizens to hold regular real-world gatherings. As
> it stands, all of our
> provincia are too large to easily accomodate
> face-to-face meetings, which is
> the direction in which I believe our future lies.

I'm a SCAdian, and I admit that I have found it
frustrating not to meet face-to-face with my NovaRoman
brethren. Sufficiently frustrated that I recommended
the aediles be put in charge of organizing a structure
for periodic events.

I also support the idea of routine local gatherings.

Someone, no doubt, is thinking "there are not enough
of us". Well, in some places there aren't, but it
won't get better by wringing our hands and hoping
someone else will show up. The best way to recruit is
to get organized, establish a meeting time and place,
and announce it.

> - What relationship would such local groups have
> with the Provincial or
> Central governments? Who would issue their charter?
> Who would appoint their
> leaders (or would their leaders be self-appointed,
> and if so what level of
> oversight would there be)?

The provincial governments are the "higher HQ", and
should be able to assist local groups. They should
also charter them (in some form). I can't see a role
for the central government. Local leaders should be
determined locally, and overseen by the praetor or
legate.

> - What form would such local groups' organization
> take? Would there be a
> single model to follow, a choice of several
> different models, or be
> completely free-form?

I recommend a fairly uniform set-up, to provide
continuity for people who move from place to place,
and to make oversight and assistance from above
easier.

> - Should local groups be sponsored by an
> already-existing local group who
> would act as a mentoring group until the group was
> big enough/old
> enough/etc.? What if a group wanted to form in an
> area where there already
> was a group? What if a group splits up due to
> internal pressures?

Let's wait on this one. There are too few existing
local organizations. One idea we can copy from the
SCA is organizing by ZIP/postal codes. That will
prohibit several groups from existing in the same
place. I would hope the legate/praetor would step in
before a group split in two from internal politics.
In the end, we may wind up with (gasp!) a GOVERNMENT.

> - Should the existing system of Legati be
> incorporated into such local
> groups, or should they remain as a level of
> organization between the local
> groups and the provincial governors?

Use the legates, where they exist.

> - What sort of nomenclature would be used for local
> groups? Would such
> nomenclature change depending on group size or legal
> status (as in the SCA,
> a canton becomes a barony when it has enough people,
> or in SFI a shuttle
> becomes a ship)? (Some choices include municipia,
> pagus, vicus, villa, etc.)

My first thought was Urbis, but probably that would
better for a larger group. A committee could work
this out.

> - What sort of names would local groups be allowed
> (or required) to have?
> Something based on local geography? Something
> completely made-up?

Latin, but determined locally and approved by the
Senate.

> - What minimum size and/or level of activity would
> be expected for such a
> local group? What happens if a group hasn't had a
> meeting in 6 months?

It's hard to run a group without 5
participants...that's why the SCA sets that as the
bottom line. Quarterly meetings, at least, should be
required. Oversight would then prohibit a 6-month
gap.

> - Should provincial, regional, and international
> meetings (such as my
> proposed RubiCon) be "farmed out" to the local
> groups?

Yes, but not yet. Let them get their feet on the
ground first.

> - Should magistrates (or priests!) at any given
> level (either provincial or
> national) be mandated to belong to and/or in charge
> of a local group?

No. The Consuls of Rome were not also village mayors.

> - What sorts of assistance can (or should) the
> central and/or provincial
> government give to new local groups just starting
> out, not only in terms of
> publicity; but practical knowledge of recruitment,
> fundraising, increasing
> visibility; plus material assistance in the form of
> hardcopy materials, web
> site space (and design assistance?), and even seed
> money?

All of the above, except seed money. First of all,
our budget is tight, too. Second, other groups get by
on having this donated.

It's clear you (and others) have put some thought into
this, and I salute you for it. I hope you are
successful.

Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus

=====
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HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839

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Subject:	[novaroma] Local Groups - Germania
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Sat, 6 Jan 2001 00:49:13 -0800 (PST)

Salvete!

It has been suggested that local groups be formed
within NovaRoma.

I live in Heidelberg, in the Province of Germania. Is
there anyone within driving distance who is interested
in joining me in a local group? Either a local one,
or one based on the Land Baden-Wuerttemberg? If there
is sufficient interest, I am willing to host a
meeting.

Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus



=====
LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
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APO AE 09063-2839

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Subject:	[novaroma] Re: Sprachprobleme in der Nova Roma
From:	"Marc " <RexMarcius@-------->
Date:	Sat, 06 Jan 2001 09:10:24 -0000

Salve Citizen Gaie Valerie!

I will do something here, which has always been the custom in
provincia Germania, namely a bilingual post. In a worldwide
micronation the use of a "lingua franca" is a mere necessity. Do not
forget, Latin also used to be the lingua franca in Europe once!

You are not breaking any law by using German as you imply (in the pre
Civil War period I believe there really was a law, but not now), but
you will not reach a lot of people with your message.

Nova Roma is tackling the language problem on the provincial level.
If you go to the provincia Germania Web-Site you will notice that
everything is written in German and English (and sometimes Latin).
One of our projects is a monthly newsletter in German about
happenings in the res publica, to make it possible for non English
speakers to be informed. Also your provincial magistrates will gladly
help you out with any language problem. That is what we are here for!

So please visit www.novaroma.de and see what we already have done for
you!

Ich werde hier etwas tun, was in der Provinz Germania immer schon
Sitte war, nämlich eine zweisprachige Mitteilung. In einer weltweiten
Mikronation ist die Verwendung einer "lingua franca" eine bloße
Notwendigkeit. Vergiß nicht, Latein war in Europa auch einmal die
"lingua franca"!

Du brichst mit der Verwendung von Deutsch, wie Du das andeutest, kein
Gesetz (in der Vor-Bürgerkriegsperiode gab es, glaube ich, ein
Gesetz, aber nicht jetzt), aber Du wirst nicht sehr viele Leute mit
Deiner Nachricht erreichen.

Nova Roma geht das Sprachenproblem auf der Provinzebene an. Wenn Du
zur Provincia Germania Web-Site gehst, wirst Du bemerken, dass alles
in Deutsch und Englisch geschrieben ist (und manchmal in Latein).
Eines unserer Projekte ist ein monatlicher newletter in Deutsch über
Vorkommnisse in der Republik, um es für nicht des Englischen
Mächtige möglich zu machen informiert zu bleiben. Ausserdem werden
Dir die Provinzmagistrate bei jedem Sprachproblem gerne aushelfen.
Dafür sind wir da!

Also bitte besuche www.novaroma.de und sieh, was wir schon alles für
Dich getan haben!

Ave et Vale

Marcus Marcius Rex
Propraetor Germaniae
Senator
Praetorial Scriba


--- In novaroma@--------, "Herr Schäfer" <schaefer.paxromana@f...>
wrote:
> Caution - infringement of the law!!!!!
>
> Salve Citizens of the Nova Roma, Salve
> Senator Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix,
>
> Salve Bürger der Nova Roma, Salve Sena-
> tor Lucius Cornelius Sulla,
>
> die Wahlen in der Nova Roma sind mitt-
> lerweile Geschichte. Im Vorfeld dieser
> wichtigen Wahlen wurden viele Versprech-
> ungen gemacht. Soweit es mir möglich war, Euere unzähligen, in der
eng-lischen Sprache verfaßten Wahlver-sprechungen zu entziffern, war
das Sprachproblem in der Nova Roma ein "angeblich" wichtiges Thema.
Leider ist davon heute in Eueren Mitteilungen nichts mehr zu lesen.
Wertvolle In-formationen, Fragen und Ausführungen sind für viele
Bürger der Nova Roma, vor allem in den europäischen
> Provinzen, nicht nachvollziehbar, weil
> es hier eben mehr Sprachen gibt, als nur
> die Englische. Wieviele Bürger können
> ihr wertvolles kontinental-europäisches Wissen über die römische
Geschichte den anderen Bürgern der Nova Roma nicht mitteilen,
wieviele Fragen können nicht gestellt werden? Ich gebe zu bedenken,
daß gerade die europäischen Bürger der Nova Roma mehr
Berührungspunkte mit der glorreichen Geschichte des römischen
Imperiums haben, als anderswo. In unseren europäischen Ländern
befinden sich die römischen Stätten, Villen, Bauwerke und Tempel.
Hier ist Rom allgegenwärtig. Was haben dagegen, mit Verlaub, die
amerikanischen Provinzen vorzuweisen?
> (dieser Satz führt wahrscheinlich zur
> Ausbürgerung aus der Nova Roma).
> Also, liebe Vertreter des Volkes der
> Nova Roma, laßt Euch etwas einfallen,
> damit auch die nicht englischsprachigen
> Bürger Europas an dem Geschehen in der
> Nova Roma teilhaben können! Bei uns in
> Europa ist das Erbe des Imperium Romanum
> allgegenwärtig. Ich selbst brauche in
> meiner saarländischen Heimat nicht weit
> zur reisen, um römische Stätten be- suchen zu können, in denen man
die
> Geister unserer verstorbenen gallo-römischen Vorfahren spüren kann.
Unsere Erde ist voller Zeugnisse römischen Schaffens und römischer
Kunst. Strengt Euch also an, Volksvertreter des Volkes der Nova Roma,
eine Lösung für das Sprachproblem zu finden. Schließlich ist Europa -
und somit auch die Provinz Germania - unzweifelhaft das ange-stammte
Territorium des Imperium Romanum, und mit Verlaub gesagt,
> nicht Amerika. Es sind gerade die Ab-
> weichungen von der Norm, die das Leben so interessant machen.
Daher, zur Abwechslung auch mal eine Mitteilung in
> Deutscher Sprache - sozusagen als Pro-
> test gegen die englischsprachliche Ver-
> einheitlichung und zur Wahrung der
> sprachlichen Vielfalt in unserer euro-
> päischen Heimat und zur Erhaltung unserer wertvollen deutschen
Sprache, welche vor nicht all zu langer Zeit die Sprache der
Wissenschaft war und in manchen Bereichen auch heute noch ist. Ich
stelle es Euch anheim, meinen Beitrag nach Euerem Gutdünken zu
beurteilen und gegebenenfalls die entsprechenden Sanktionen zu
treffen.
>
> Das angestammte Territorium des Im-
> perium Romanum ist nunmal Europa - und nicht Amerika. Und gerade
deshalb sollte
> man in der Nova Roma die anderen europäischen Sprachen nicht
vernach-
> lässigen.
>
> Vale!
>
> Caius Valerius Opilio
>
> Provinz Germanien
>
> VI. Januar des Jahres MMDCCLIV (ad urbe condita).
>
> --
>
> Spitzenhandy ein Jahr ohne Grundgebühr! Zahlen Sie zwölf Monate
> keine und danach 9,95 DM für das Ericsson T10s inkl. Ledertasche
> und portabler Freisprecheinrichtung.
> Alles zum Weihnachtspreis von DM 0.- http://handy.freenet.de

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] State of the Province -America Boreoccidentalis and related topics<long>
From:	"Jeroen Meuleman" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sat, 6 Jan 2001 12:20:27 +0100

Salvete Oppi Flacce et Livia Cornelia,

I think the analysis of Oppius Flaccus is saddening, but all too true. It's
an illness that affects many provinciae here in Nova Roma, including Gallia.
Although we cannot complain too hard, because at least we have an active
administracy, the rest of our citizens remains fast asleep. This is indeed
discouraging, and I agree whole-heartedly with the solutions presented.
Another factor is also, I think, how we can make Nova Roma attractive on a
provincial level? I don't really have a solution thought out for this,
because I'm not planning on paying for huge tv commercials ;-). But,
seriously, I think a similar problem also affects smaller Sodalitates and
lists that are NR-related. How could this be solved?

Valete!
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
Legatus Galliae Borealis,
Procurator Galliae,
Scriba Aedilis Plebis
Vainqueur, ICQ# 32924725
--**--
Novaromain? Parlez-vous français? Cliquez ici!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NRGallia_GalliaBelgicaF
Nieuwromein? Spreekt u Nederlands? Klik hier!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NRGallia_BelgicaBataviaD
Novaroman? Interested in philosophy? Click here!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NR_Philosophy
Novaroman? Interested in politics? Click here!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NR_DignitasForum

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Amend the age limit law
From:	"Jeroen Meuleman" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sat, 6 Jan 2001 12:24:34 +0100

Salve Luci Aeti,

> --- "S. Apollonius Draco" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
> wrote:
> > As requested, here are the full details... The old
> > lex as well as my new
> > amended model.
>
> An excellent proposal. It does not (at least I didn't
> see it) allow for exceptions. Do you feel there
> should be any? I have no problem with exceptions
> (waivers), so long as they are requested and cleared
> by the Senate, and that fact published on the main
> list (which serves as an official record for us) prior
> to the election.

Requested by the Senate? They should be requested by the applicant, imo. I
did build in the possibility of an exemption in my amendment, but the
applicant should first contact the Senate, to avoid all confusion. Hope this
explains a little.

Vale bene,
Sextus Apollonius Draco, civis Novae Romae
Legatus Galliae Borealis,
Procurator Galliae,
Scriba Aedilis Plebis
Vainqueur, ICQ# 32924725
--**--
Novaromain? Parlez-vous français? Cliquez ici!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NRGallia_GalliaBelgicaF
Nieuwromein? Spreekt u Nederlands? Klik hier!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NRGallia_BelgicaBataviaD
Novaroman? Interested in philosophy? Click here!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NR_Philosophy
Novaroman? Interested in politics? Click here!:
http://www.egroups.com/group/NR_DignitasForum

Subject:	[novaroma] Age-Law Amendment
From:	jmath669642reng@--------
Date:	Sat, 6 Jan 2001 06:44:03 -0500 (EST)

Salvete, Nova Roma Citizens;

In my view the subject law should be left alone. The purpose of the law
was well defined when it was passed, and has not changed it's purpose,
in my view one, small whit, since it's passage.

The micronation is now considering a change in ths law, because
essentially there has appeared on the horizon a brilliant young man,
perhaps mature beyond his years, and active in the areas of NR where
permitted. I can and do appreciate that, and I applaud his efforts,
both to him personnally, and to those who support him.

However, the desires of this young man must be wieghed against the
reasons the law was passed originally, and that was to limit those
people who were not so brilliant, mature, and active from representing
the people of Nova Roma poorly or improperly.

In addition, my good friend Venator has the right of it when he says
that the world over, similar laws are in effect for good purpose and
with good result, as recognized by the people of the world in general.
Gone are the days when children (below the age of 18) stood at the side
of the room while thier parents ate thier supper and the meal leavings
were given to the children. Gone are the days of child labor in
dangerous occupations, or the indenture of children into work-places.
We now have institutions which educate the young and encourage them to
use and flex thier minds and skills--but always under the supervision of
those who have attained a mature age and significant life experience.
Nova Roma does the same, and there are lierally dozens of areas where
gifted young people may contribute thier ideas, and abilities.

There is already a feature in our laws which provides for an exemption
to this under-age situation and admittedly it is a difficult one to
surmount, but should it be otherwise?? I don't think so, if the
original law is to have any meaning at all. Young Draco applied for the
exemption, and it was denied him under the law. Unfortunate for
him--Yes; Unfortunate for the micronation--Not necessarily. This
micro-nation provides many areas in which a young man or young woman can
flex thier abilities and be a force to reckon with, at thier age,
without a change in the law. Young Draco is a good example of that
himself in his work as a Legate Civicum, and in his oganizational skills
at the Provincial Level. It has been rightly said that in the coming
years the organization and the tasks of the central goverment must be
regulated in some degree to the Provinces, and I agree with that idea.
We have already heard just recently from a Propraetor who is disparing
of his province. Why not use our young Draco's expertise to assist in
that area under the supervision of the Provincial ProPraetor. Why must
we amend our laws on personal whim, when so much needs to be done at a
level where people of this age-limitation can be of good service without
such amending. If in fact the thrust here is service to NR, then there
is much service to be achieved right here, and the Provinces are
certainly the place to start.

A second point, is that when I began my involvement in the government it
was as a accensus to the Consul, and later as the lowest level
Magistate. Am I interested in financial details, not particularly --
but that was where the effort was needed. I did not proceed onward
until strongly encouraged by several friends that I shoud do so. My
intention has never been to do other than service, as service was
required, even though my age was and is, such that no-one could complain
about my youth (Grin).

My recommendation is to leave the Age Law alone except to make it
clearer when an examption can be applied for. In another venue, I see
no reason for the Consuls to be burdened with the requirement to insure
that such exemption requests are completed, The Consuls and Censos have
enough to do already without seeing to special privaledges for special
individuals.

I am fully aware that my views in this matter are unpopular to the
younger set, but I remind you that I have been that age once myself, and
I do not regret those age-limitations placed upon my exuberance in those
days, in the least for a variety of reasons. In the years to come, as
Nova Roma expands her horizons, and attracts more and more people, those
who are representatives of those people will be called upon in
ever-increasing degrees to be able to register mature judgements, and
decisions based in large part on life experience as well as new ideas.
In my view a distinct balance should be maintained, by keeping the
Maturity in place and the New Ideas within reach. That will take much
creative thinking, and will require the patience and creativity of all
our citizens to bring about. But, if we are successful in our endeavors
we will have the best of both worlds, and will have accomplished
something that very few, if any, other institutions have accomplished,
and most importantly will provide the best of both worlds for Nova Roma.

In my view, that is a goal well worth striving for, and one to which I
can pledge my complete support.

Valete, Respectfully;
Marcus Audens


Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!


http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Amend the age limit law
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Sat, 6 Jan 2001 03:46:13 -0800 (PST)

--- Jeroen Meuleman <hendrik.meuleman@--------> wrote:

> Requested by the Senate? They should be requested by
> the applicant, imo. I
> did build in the possibility of an exemption in my
> amendment, but the
> applicant should first contact the Senate, to avoid
> all confusion. Hope this
> explains a little.


Oops...should have been "approved by the Senate".

Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus

=====
LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839

"It's what you learn after you know it all that counts." --Jean Rostand

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] State of the Province -America Boreoccidentalis and related topics<long>
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Sat, 6 Jan 2001 04:08:06 -0800 (PST)

Salve!

This is, indeed, a sad state of affairs. I think you
have a good plan, and I hope you will become governor
to right these wrongs. However, there are changes to
be made that cover more than one province.

> 1-Personally, I think that all cives should have the
> right to
> contact one another via e-mail. NOTE that I'm not
> at all suggesting
> that we post everyone's address on the main page
> which is public,
> or that we are given any information beyond a
> citizen's full
> Roman name and an e-mail address for contact. My
> suggestion is that
> e-mail addresses for citizens become available
> AFTER a citizenship
> application has been approved. Once someone is
> verified and approved,
> then they are provided with a username and
> password to access
> possibly a secured area of the Album Gentium which
> lists the known
> e-mail addresses for each cive.

I agree with this. The egroups site has an option
wherein all of us can be given access to every other
participants email address. It is voluntary (i.e.,
you do not need to participate to receive and post
emails).

> 2-Citizenship applications should include a phone
> call to the prospective
> candidate to validate the phone number, that they
> are who they say
> they are. This will also help validate that cives
> are matched to phone
> numbers, matched to addresses implying the basic
> capabilities to
> maintain citizenship in NR. Additionally, the
> citizen's e-mail
> address should be tested with a required response
> for further
> validation. In short, citizenship has to become
> more meaningful
> and worthy of our great nation.

Do you suspect that some of these people do not exist?
That seems to be what you're saying. A major part of
my job is being able to get in contact with people
immediately. It's impossible -- and I don't deal with
600+ people.

Your last sentence says it all. I'm not sure that all
of our 600+ citizens will agree.

> 3-Institute minimum 'property' qualifications for
> elected AND appointed
> magistrates. Let me be clear what is meant here:
> what I mean by
> 'property qualifications' is that a cive have the
> time and the
> *physical means* of carrying out their elected or
> appointed duty.
> By this, the individual should possess a phone for
> instance. (With the
> capability of being able to make long distance
> calls when needed.) The
> individual should have X amount of time per day,
> week, month,
> whatever to carry out their duties. The individual
> should have full
> access to a computer, *whether or not* they
> actually own one or not.
> (Churches, libraries, community colleges, NFP
> groups, etc. all can
> provide some level of computer access to those
> without.

Adding a line to the oath of office should do this.

> 4-To expound upon some recent posts proposing
> group-level organization;
> and in particularly to something that Formosanus
> eloquently stated
> earlier today: The Internet and its related
> communications mechanisms
> are inherently prone to misinterpretation. While
> the organization and
> structure of our great nation dictates a large
> degree of electronic
> communication, it is only a one-dimensional
> channel at best and MUST
> be augmented with good ol' physical interaction
> and communication.
> This includes both phone contact and physical
> gatherings at local/
> provincial/national levels. We need to know one
> another and must
> be able to put faces and personalities with the
> plethora of electronic
> content swirling around. Having access to the mail
> addresses
> of cives can facilitate such gatherings. Another
> inherent weakness of
> electronic
> communications is that it makes it extremely easy
> to delete
> undesirable communications, ignore them entirely
> or state that
> they were never received. I think we've probably
> all been guilty
> of that at one time or another, certainly
> including myself.

I take it, then, that you are in support of
face-to-face meetings.

> 5-I propose that a chat be established in the coming
> days or weeks
> with all interested parties to come up with some
> creative solutions
> to the provincial and communications issues.

Good idea. If it's at a reasonable time, I'll
participate.

I would advocate a "novaroma governors" email address,
so praetors and propraetors, etc., can share info.

Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus


=====
LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839

"It's what you learn after you know it all that counts." --Jean Rostand

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Age-Law Amendment
From:	"Jeroen Meuleman" <hendrik.meuleman@-------->
Date:	Sat, 6 Jan 2001 13:06:38 +0100

Salvete Quirites Novae Romae et Quaestor Audens,

I'd only like to make one small remark. I haven't made this amendment solely
to further my own purposes. As everyone is well aware, I'm not 18, so even
my own amendment wouldn't apply to me! That said, I think I'm also not the
only "whelp" here who has experienced some problems in regard of that Lex.
As examples one of our newest Rogators, Curio, is an opponent of this lex,
as is my frater Quintus. It would be indeed a little silly to make all this
fuss about a problem that only applies for one person, but I don't think
this is the case.

Cura ut valeas optime!
Draco

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] State of the Province -America Boreoccidentalis and related topics<long>
From:	Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@-------->
Date:	Sat, 06 Jan 2001 03:09:25 -0800

Ave,

My comments are listed below. This post is going to be VERY Long but hopefully
fairly detailed:

Oppius Flaccus wrote:

> As mentioned in my previous post today, America Boreoccidentalis
> is in an advanced state of decay and may or may not be salvageable
> in its current state. (More on this later.) After beating my head
> against a wall for the past few weeks trying to reach *anybody*
> in the province, (excepting Procopious and Marcus Cornelius
> Felix -see below) I had a phone conversation with the current
> Legatus. (Marcus Cornelius Felix) The results of this conversation
> were extremely discouraging to say the least and highlighted some
> significant issues; particularly in the way that communications
> are currently conducted within Nova Roma.
>

Its a shame that your province is in such straights. Your Governor has
disappeared. About 4-5 months ago he reapplied for citizenship stating he
resigned earlier. As Censor, I checked my emails (yes I save them all) and I
never found anything that showed he resigned his citizenship, governorship or
anything. My colleague at the time, C. Marius Merullus also checked his
information. I then notified his Paterfamilias, Decius Iunius Palladius
Invictus regarding this situation. This was all done by October, I believe.
The end result was that we did not accept his new application. With that
decision, he is still listed as governor of the province. However, in my
opinion we obviously need a more active governor. Its a shame that the province
must suffer this ship without a captain syndrome.

> <Snip>

>
> 4-Because current cives have no access to the e-mail addresses
> of any other cives (excepting published addresses of
> of magistrates, Pontiffs and those cives posting to one of
> the public lists,) I had no reasonable hope of getting
> in touch with any other cives in the province. I was further
> told that I would have to become governor even to
> gain access to e-mail addresses! (More on this later.)
>

That is correct. This is because the Lex Cornelia de Privatus Rebus. It
protects confidential information of all citizens.

>
> 5-Marcus Cornelius offered to announce the formation of
> the America Boreoccidentalis e-groups list, if and only
> if he could be added to the list transparently. (Without
> going through the manual e-groups 'join' process.) As
> I am not the list owner, the best I could do was pass
> this request on to the cive in charge of that list,
> whom has seemed to disappear.
>

To my knowledge anyone can create an email list. You can create an email list
today, it only takes a few minutes at www.egroups.com. I know that when the
previous governor of California resigned, the paterfamilias of the Gens Trocia
(sorry I cant recall your full Roman Name) Created
californianovaroma@-------- When I became Proconsul of California I was
appointed Moderator of that list. That was certainly acceptable to me.

>
> 6-The only hope out of this predicament is for someone
> to step forward, become the sanctioned governor and
> do some massive reorganization.
>

Yes that does seem like the best overall solution.

>
> Further, I've been told that I can't join a more
> 'happening' province, as I don't physically reside there. Currently,
> there are *three* cives in America Boreoccidentalis listed
> as residing in New York, and one listed as living in
> VA! A Censor stated that this was being changed, but in the
> meantime I was out of luck other than perhaps joining
> the mailing lists of other provinces. (A possible
> thought actually.
>

I highly suggest to anyone that you can subscribe to most Nova Roma affiliated
email lists. I am personally subscribed up on the NR_Rockies, Britannia,
California Nova Roma, NovaRomaByzantia (sp.), Canada's lists, and others. I am
sure anyone else can sign up to those lists as well and others. That is
something I highly recommend.

<Snip>

>
> 1-Personally, I think that all cives should have the right to
> contact one another via e-mail. NOTE that I'm not at all suggesting
> that we post everyone's address on the main page which is public,
> or that we are given any information beyond a citizen's full
> Roman name and an e-mail address for contact. My suggestion is that
> e-mail addresses for citizens become available AFTER a citizenship
> application has been approved. Once someone is verified and approved,
> then they are provided with a username and password to access
> possibly a secured area of the Album Gentium which lists the known
> e-mail addresses for each cive.
>

As I stated before the Lex Cornelia de Privatus Rebus prohibits this information
being made public. There have been a number of emails I received as Consul
requesting this protection for a number of reasons. Primarily, citizens were
concerned about the possibility of selling information to outside companies and
thus increasing spam issues. Secondly, related to spam, many of us who have our
email addresses listed on the NR main page do get spam because our addresses are
available to the public (both NR public and just surfers who find the site).
Third, a feeling of security for those citizens who want to make absolutely
certain their private information would not be compromised in any manner.

>
> 2-Citizenship applications should include a phone call to the prospective
> candidate to validate the phone number, that they are who they say
> they are. This will also help validate that cives are matched to phone
> numbers, matched to addresses implying the basic capabilities to
> maintain citizenship in NR. Additionally, the citizen's e-mail
> address should be tested with a required response for further
> validation. In short, citizenship has to become more meaningful
> and worthy of our great nation.
>

Well I have taken a great many steps in that direction. :) First off, when I
applied for citizenship I had to snail mail my application to Nova Roma. While
at a worse case scenario we can reinitiate that. That would definitely show
just how much initiative prospective citizens have in Nova Roma. But, we would
sacrifice much of our growth. Currently we are receiving about 5 citizenship
applications per day. We have about 130 pending since Late November. With that
statement of fact, let me deal with each separate issue you have brought up. :)

As for the phone calls. I have called many a citizen and prospective citizen.
As I stated prior to the election I had a phone bill averaging around 30.00 a
month calling my Censorial Colleague (C. Marius Merullus) and citizens who
absolutely needed calling (because of email bouncing, pater issues, etc). Most
of my phone calls were in the United States and Canada. However, we have many
citizens who apply and they reside in Europe, Asia, Australia, South America and
Africa. I, as Censor, cannot afford to call globally when we get these
applications. It is much easier to email those people multiple times.

In an effort to prevent citizen applications from pending forever, I promulgated
an Edict in March that gives citizenship applications a life span of 60 days.
If I cannot approve a citizen application in 60 days, then it gets deleted and
if that person wants to reapply, they can. Most of the cases that that edict
has been exercised it was because the applicant has never responded to my emails
or my colleagues.

In an attempt to prevent frivolous applications, I promulgated an edict
requiring at least 2 forms of contact for the applicant. This means that they
would need to list an email addy (or multiple email addys), a physical address
or a phone number. If we do not get two forms of contact the application for
citizenship is sent an email requesting the applicant to comply or after 60 days
the application is deleted.

Finally, thanks to the excellent work of M. Octavius, he was able to implement
some of my suggestions to automatically verify if an email address is valid at
the time the application is submitted. The applicant, I believe, is sent an
email to confirm that the application for citizenship is correct, if that email
address bounces, we (the Censors) do not get the application for citizenship.
On top of that, many Paters/Materfamilias now probably have noticed that when a
new applicant attempts to join a Gens, they are automatically given an email
which includes a substantial portion of the citizenship application and a means
to contact the potential applicant. Once again, this is thanks to the great
work of Senator M. Octavius.

One of my final projects for the remainder of my term is the compilation of IM
information. By the end of the year I will have a very substantial database
that will hopefully be posted on the NR site that citizens can use as a means to
contact citizens. This list will include AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, MSN and other Instant
Message programs. This has been a project in the works for over a year now.
And, this information is not protected under the Lex Cornelia de Privatus Rebus.

>
> 3-Institute minimum 'property' qualifications for elected AND appointed
> magistrates. Let me be clear what is meant here: what I mean by
> 'property qualifications' is that a cive have the time and the
> *physical means* of carrying out their elected or appointed duty.
> By this, the individual should possess a phone for instance. (With the
> capability of being able to make long distance calls when needed.) The
> individual should have X amount of time per day, week, month,
> whatever to carry out their duties. The individual should have full
> access to a computer, *whether or not* they actually own one or not.
> (Churches, libraries, community colleges, NFP groups, etc. all can
> provide some level of computer access to those without.
>

I know that the Senate has began establishing requirements for governors. I
believe the Senate should take a more active role (No I don't know how it would
do that) to make sure those requirements are continually met. Given the
unfortunate situation that has arisen in your provincia.

>
> 4-To expound upon some recent posts proposing group-level organization;
> and in particularly to something that Formosanus eloquently stated
> earlier today: The Internet and its related communications mechanisms
> are inherently prone to misinterpretation. While the organization and
> structure of our great nation dictates a large degree of electronic
> communication, it is only a one-dimensional channel at best and MUST
> be augmented with good ol' physical interaction and communication.
> This includes both phone contact and physical gatherings at local/
> provincial/national levels. We need to know one another and must
> be able to put faces and personalities with the plethora of electronic
> content swirling around. Having access to the mail addresses
> of cives can facilitate such gatherings. Another inherent weakness of
> electronic
> communications is that it makes it extremely easy to delete
> undesirable communications, ignore them entirely or state that
> they were never received. I think we've probably all been guilty
> of that at one time or another, certainly including myself.
>

Well, that is all fine and wonderful to state, you will get no arguments from
me. :) However, its one thing to state it..and entirely different thing to
start doing it. I mean this with sincere respect and no criticism. But, as one
who has been in NR since She began in March 1998, I have probably spoken to
about 100 citizens on the phone. I have been to at least 10 meetings with
citizens (with more than 1 other citizen). I have planned or contributed to
planning at least 3 of them. I am not that great of a planner when it comes to
face to face meetings.

On the bright side, hopefully my IM database which will be available online will
make the communciation/coordination between individual citizens much more
feasible.

>
> 5-I propose that a chat be established in the coming days or weeks
> with all interested parties to come up with some creative solutions
> to the provincial and communications issues.
>

We had that, it was called Market Days, however, I know that the dates have been
screwy. Hopefully we can get this reorganized and re-implemented. It was a
good way for those who don't have alot of time to know exactly when people will
be in the chatroom, beyond the hit and miss many of us tend to experience. M.
Octavius, can we put on the www.novaroma.org/main.html page, a date showing the
next market day?

I hope my responses were helpful.

Respectfully,

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
Censor of Nova Roma

> Vale bene,
> -Oppius Flaccus Severus

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Local Groups - Germania
From:	Lucilla Cornelia Cinna <CorneliaLucilla@-------->
Date:	Sat, 06 Jan 2001 13:59:33 +0100

L. Aetio Dalmatico atque onmibus Quiritibus provinciam Germaniam
habitantibus Lucilla Cinna salutem

[German version at the end of this post! - deutsche Fassung am Ende der
Nachricht!]

> I live in Heidelberg, in the Province of Germania. Is
> there anyone within driving distance who is interested
> in joining me in a local group? Either a local one,
> or one based on the Land Baden-Wuerttemberg? If there
> is sufficient interest, I am willing to host a
> meeting.

You'll find me happily offering my support. I live in Marburg, about
150kms away, so I can't just drop in, but I'll certainly come down for a
meeting, since Heidelberg is a beautiful place and worth a visit, anyway.
I'm able to prepare some Roman dishes as well and offer my help in that.
My Latin has become a bit rusty, but my English is quite okay.

By the way, C. Diocletianus doesn't live too far away from my place ...
What about a local/regional group for Hessen/NRW?

Apart from that, we should look out for meetings of re-enactment and
Living Latin groups - all of them a nice opportunity to meet up!

[translation]
L. Aetius Dalamticus, wohnhaft in Heidelberg, hat die Gründung einer
lokalen/regionalen NR-Gruppe für Baden-Würtemberg vorgeschlagen und
angeboten, daß bei ihm ein Treffen statfinden könne.
Ich möchte ihn dabei unterstützen und würde am angebotenen Treffen gerne
teilnehmen - ich kann auch ein bißchen römisch kochen. Allerdings ist
mein Latein etwas eingerostet. ;o)
C. Diocletianus, unser Provinzlegat und Praetor Urbanus, wohnt nicht
weit von mir (Marburg) entfernt. Da würde sich doch die Gründung einer
weiteren lokalen/regionalen Gruppe anbieten ...?
Außerdem sollten wir nach Treffen von re-enactment-Gruppen
(experimentelle Archäologie und Enthusiasten) sowie Vertretern der
Bewegung Lebendiges Latein Ausschau halten - solche Treffen bieten
hervorragende Gelegenheiten, sich in der passenden Umgebung kennenzulernen!

Avete atque valete,

Lucilla Cornelia Cinna
Quaestor
Retiaria pro tempore Sodalitatis Egressus
civis provinciam Germaniam inhabitans


_________________________________________________________
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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Local Groups - Germania (English and German)
From:	Caius Flavius Diocletianus <3s@-------->
Date:	Sat, 06 Jan 2001 16:12:41 +0100

Salvete,

E: Our Quaestorix Lucilla Cornelia Cinna made some interesting remarks. I´ll
give my answers below.
D: Unsere Quaestory Lucilla Cornelia Cinna hat einige intessante Anmerkungen
gemacht. Ich werde meine Antworten weiter unten geben.

Lucilla Cornelia Cinna wrote:

> L. Aetio Dalmatico atque onmibus Quiritibus provinciam Germaniam
> habitantibus Lucilla Cinna salutem
>
> [German version at the end of this post! - deutsche Fassung am Ende der
> Nachricht!]
>
> > I live in Heidelberg, in the Province of Germania. Is
> > there anyone within driving distance who is interested
> > in joining me in a local group? Either a local one,
> > or one based on the Land Baden-Wuerttemberg? If there
> > is sufficient interest, I am willing to host a
> > meeting.
>
> You'll find me happily offering my support. I live in Marburg, about
> 150kms away, so I can't just drop in, but I'll certainly come down for a
> meeting, since Heidelberg is a beautiful place and worth a visit, anyway.
> I'm able to prepare some Roman dishes as well and offer my help in that.
> My Latin has become a bit rusty, but my English is quite okay.

E: Real-life meetings are always a good idea. I support that. Heidelberg is
some 230 km away from my home. so I could drop in, too, and perhaps. C.
Valerius Opilio, who lives in Saarland, and my Scriba Diana Meridia Aurelia,
living in Baden-Württemberg.
D: Treffen sind immer eine gute Idee. Ich unterstütze es. Heidelberg liegt gut
230km entfernt, daher könnte ich ebenfalls teilnehmen, und vielleicht auch C.
Valerius Opilio, der im Saarland wohnt, und meine Scriba Diana Meridia
Aurelia, die in Baden-Württemberg lebt.

> By the way, C. Diocletianus doesn't live too far away from my place ...
> What about a local/regional group for Hessen/NRW?

E: Why not?
D: Warum nicht?


> Apart from that, we should look out for meetings of re-enactment and
> Living Latin groups - all of them a nice opportunity to meet up!

(snip)

E: I suggest that we move this topic to the newly established
nrgermania-mailinglist. That´s the mailinglist I mentioned in my answer to
Valerius Opilio. The url of the group is www.egroups.de/group/nrgermania/.
Perhaps you might join this list. BTW, Luci Aeti Dalmatice, what about your
knowledge of German?
D: Ich schlage vor, dass wir diesen Punkt in die neu eingerichtete
nrgermania-mailignliste verschieben. Da ist die Mailingliste, die ich in
meiner Antwort an Valerius Opilio erwähnt habe. Die url dieser Gruppe ist
www.egroups.de/group/nrgermania/. Vielleicht möchtet ihr die Liste abonnieren.
Übrigens, Luci Aeti Dalmatice, wie sieht es mit Deinen Deutschkenntnissen aus?

Valete
Caius Flavius Diocletianus
Praetor, Senator
Legatus Germaniae

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Sprachprobleme in der Nova Roma
From:	Caius Flavius Diocletianus <3s@-------->
Date:	Sat, 06 Jan 2001 15:45:30 +0100

Salve, Caie Valeri Opilio,

E: Senator Marcus Maricus Rex made his statement bilingually, and so will I do. The reasons for that he explained.
D: Senator Marcus Marcius Rex verfasste seine Stellungnahme zweisprachig, und so werde ich es auch halten. Die Gründe hierfür hat er genannt.

E: I just want to give you some more information about the next steps in Germania.
D: Ich möchte Dir eigentlich nur ein paar zusätzliche Informationen über unsere nächsten Schritte in Germania geben.

E: Within the next time, we will establish two new services in Germania: The Germania Chatroom and the Germania mailing list. Both services are intended to promote intraprovicial communication, and the main language in both services will be German. Futhermore, we are planning a Germania newsletter, also with German as main language, as a media providing nonpartisan information about current topics of interest.
D. Innerhalb der nächsten Zeit, werden wir zwei neue Dienste in Germania anbieten: Den Germania Chatroom und die Germania Mailing-Liste. Beide Dienste sollen die Kommunikation innerhalb der Provinz fördern, die Hauptsprache wird in beiden Diensten Deutsch sein. Weiterhin planen wir eine Germania newsletter, ebenfalls mit Deutsch als Hauptsprache, als Medium, um unparteiische Informationen über aktuelle und interessante Themen zu geben.

E: With this new services we react to the language problems. This is only possible on provincial level.
D: Mit diesen neuen Diensten reagieren wir auf die Sprachproblematik. Dies ist leider nur auf Provinzebene möglich.

Vale, fellow citizen

Caius Flavius Diocletianus
Praetor, Senator
Legatus Germaniae


"Herr Schäfer" wrote:

> Caution - infringement of the law!!!!!
>
> Salve Citizens of the Nova Roma, Salve
> Senator Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix,
>
> Salve Bürger der Nova Roma, Salve Sena-
> tor Lucius Cornelius Sulla,
>
> die Wahlen in der Nova Roma sind mitt-
> lerweile Geschichte. Im Vorfeld dieser
> wichtigen Wahlen wurden viele Versprech-
> ungen gemacht. Soweit es mir möglich war, Euere unzähligen, in der eng-lischen Sprache verfaßten Wahlver-sprechungen zu entziffern, war das Sprachproblem in der Nova Roma ein "angeblich" wichtiges Thema. Leider ist davon heute in Eueren Mitteilungen nichts mehr zu lesen. Wertvolle In-formationen, Fragen und Ausführungen sind für viele Bürger der Nova Roma, vor allem in den europäischen
> Provinzen, nicht nachvollziehbar, weil
> es hier eben mehr Sprachen gibt, als nur
> die Englische. Wieviele Bürger können
> ihr wertvolles kontinental-europäisches Wissen über die römische Geschichte den anderen Bürgern der Nova Roma nicht mitteilen, wieviele Fragen können nicht gestellt werden? Ich gebe zu bedenken, daß gerade die europäischen Bürger der Nova Roma mehr Berührungspunkte mit der glorreichen Geschichte des römischen Imperiums haben, als anderswo. In unseren europäischen Ländern befinden sich die römischen Stätten, Villen, Bauwerke und Tempel. Hier ist Rom allgegenwärtig. Was haben dagegen, mit Verlaub, die amerikanischen Provinzen vorzuweisen?
> (dieser Satz führt wahrscheinlich zur
> Ausbürgerung aus der Nova Roma).
> Also, liebe Vertreter des Volkes der
> Nova Roma, laßt Euch etwas einfallen,
> damit auch die nicht englischsprachigen
> Bürger Europas an dem Geschehen in der
> Nova Roma teilhaben können! Bei uns in
> Europa ist das Erbe des Imperium Romanum
> allgegenwärtig. Ich selbst brauche in
> meiner saarländischen Heimat nicht weit
> zur reisen, um römische Stätten be- suchen zu können, in denen man die
> Geister unserer verstorbenen gallo-römischen Vorfahren spüren kann. Unsere Erde ist voller Zeugnisse römischen Schaffens und römischer Kunst. Strengt Euch also an, Volksvertreter des Volkes der Nova Roma, eine Lösung für das Sprachproblem zu finden. Schließlich ist Europa - und somit auch die Provinz Germania - unzweifelhaft das ange-stammte Territorium des Imperium Romanum, und mit Verlaub gesagt,
> nicht Amerika. Es sind gerade die Ab-
> weichungen von der Norm, die das Leben so interessant machen. Daher, zur Abwechslung auch mal eine Mitteilung in
> Deutscher Sprache - sozusagen als Pro-
> test gegen die englischsprachliche Ver-
> einheitlichung und zur Wahrung der
> sprachlichen Vielfalt in unserer euro-
> päischen Heimat und zur Erhaltung unserer wertvollen deutschen Sprache, welche vor nicht all zu langer Zeit die Sprache der Wissenschaft war und in manchen Bereichen auch heute noch ist. Ich stelle es Euch anheim, meinen Beitrag nach Euerem Gutdünken zu beurteilen und gegebenenfalls die entsprechenden Sanktionen zu treffen.
>
> Das angestammte Territorium des Im-
> perium Romanum ist nunmal Europa - und nicht Amerika. Und gerade deshalb sollte
> man in der Nova Roma die anderen europäischen Sprachen nicht vernach-
> lässigen.
>
> Vale!
>
> Caius Valerius Opilio
>
> Provinz Germanien
>
> VI. Januar des Jahres MMDCCLIV (ad urbe condita).
>
> --
>
> Spitzenhandy ein Jahr ohne Grundgebühr! Zahlen Sie zwölf Monate
> keine und danach 9,95 DM für das Ericsson T10s inkl. Ledertasche
> und portabler Freisprecheinrichtung.
> Alles zum Weihnachtspreis von DM 0.- http://handy.freenet.de

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] State of the Province -America Boreoccidentalis and related topics<long>
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 6 Jan 2001 11:52:29 -0500

Salvete;

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Smith [mailto:JSmithCSA@--------]
> Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2001 7:08 AM
>
> This is, indeed, a sad state of affairs. I think you
> have a good plan, and I hope you will become governor
> to right these wrongs. However, there are changes to
> be made that cover more than one province.

I agree completely, and would present a Senatus Consultum making Oppius
Flaccus Severus governor of the America Boreoccidentalis provincia, should
he want the job. It sounds like he has the interest, ideas, and drive to do
a good job.

Well, Oppius Flaccus Severus? Do you want the job?

Valete,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org

Subject:	[novaroma] Re: A Death in the Family
From:	"Teleri ferch Nyfain" <rckovak@-------->
Date:	Sat, 6 Jan 2001 12:15:13 -0500

Condolences to your family on your loss, especially at this time of the
year.

Goddess Bless

Helena Galeria Auriliana

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Age-Law Amendment
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Sat, 6 Jan 2001 12:13:05 -0500

Salve;

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeroen Meuleman [mailto:hendrik.meuleman@--------]
> Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2001 7:07 AM
>
> I'd only like to make one small remark. I haven't made this amendment
solely
> to further my own purposes. As everyone is well aware, I'm not 18, so even
> my own amendment wouldn't apply to me!

Odd. The Senate was told that you were 17 years old as of last month. That
would make you 18 by next December's elections, and thus your proposal would
in fact apply to you. Were the Censors in error about your age?

Vale,

Flavius Vedius Germanicus,
Consul

email: germanicus@--------
AIM: Flavius Vedius
www: http://mediatlantica.novaroma.org