Subject:	[novaroma] URL of the Minervium
From:	"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@-------->
Date:	Mon, 1 Jan 2001 01:03:41 +0100

Salvete Omnes!

I was kindly reminded by Oppius Flaccus that I had neglected
something very important in my announcement of the Minervium
Virtuale, to wit, its address! :-)

So, here it is:

http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/Minervium.htm

Valete!



Marcus Apollonius Formosanus
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae (http://www.crosswinds.net/~bvm3/)
Moderator et Praeceptor Sodalitatis Latinitatis; Scriba Censorius    
ICQ# 61698049 AIM: MAFormosanus MSN: Formosanus
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
The Gens Apollonia is open to new members.
Ave nostra Respublica Libera - Nova Roma!
________________________________________
Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
(Se vi deziras subigi al vi chion, subigu vin al Racio)
________________________________________


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Subject:	[novaroma] Farewell Address from the Senior Consul to the people of Rome.
From:	sfp55@--------
Date:	Sun, 31 Dec 2000 20:16:00 EST

Salvete, the Senate and People of Rome!

I mount the Rostrum for the last time, to say farewell to you and to all the
Magistrates of my and Marcus Minucius Audens' Consulship.
When I assumed the Consulship this year, Rome was coming out of a transition
period, one which had seen a divisive civil struggle that had cost us some of
our most promising citizens. One of my goals this year was to maintain a
Nova Roma that did not lurch from crisis to crisis. Such stability would
help growth. This was important, as after our third year of being, word of
our existence was getting around. People who loved Rome, her gods, her
language, her government, her military, would have a chance to join us, and
better still, see us in operation. The movie "Gladiator" did not hurt our
prospects either. It started a large groundswell of interest in Rome and
things Roman. We would have to take advantage of that.
Well, it would appear that this Consulship succeeded. Our population grows,
our province total increases, our borders are peaceful. Awareness of Nova
Roma continues. Two universities allowed Roman activities under the banner
of Nova Roma, this year. Next year our goal will be three times that.
Scholars of major universities continue to write letters, asking what are we
really about, and can a Roman reconstruction society that worships the Gods
exist in the 21st century.
Citizens, I say it does! Look around you. We see things happening everyday
that were considered mere dreams three years ago. Rome is one of these. Of
course we have enormous obstacles still in our way, but if we draw the
example from our spiritual ancestors, there is no barrier we cannot
penetrate, no deterrent we cannot overcome. I believe this. I would not be
here today before you all, if I felt this was a waste of my time.
Romans, of course, had a lot of pride. And they were proud of their state.
But unless you count the defeat of Hasdrubal at the Metaurus, Romans never
had a defining moment in their state one they could look back on and say
"That was the turning point."
Citizens of Nova Roma, I believe that one day we all can look back and see
this year 2,753 since the founding of the City, as a turning point!
At this time I would like to thank all the Magistrates of this year. My co
Consul Marcus Minucius Adens, who was a bulwark of strength and talked me out
of resigning when misfortune befall my sister. Thank you Marcus Minucius.
Our Praetor Urbanii Antonius Gryllus Graecus, Marcus Iunius Iulianus, whose
advice on law was always helpful, our Censors, Lucius Cornelius Sulla, who
soldiered on when his colleague was forced to resign because of work, and
carried the burden for several months, before being aided by Caius Marius
Merullus, our Tribunes, Lucius Sergius Australicus, Gnaeus Tarquinius Caesar,
both who were fiercely protective of the constitution. To the Senate and to
the many other men and women who helped make our Consulship a success, great
thanks go to them as well. Now as I step down, and Flavius Vedius Germanicus
and Marcus Cassius Julianus steps up, to continue to make our dream a
reality, I ask you Romans to follow them, and we will continue our climb to
prominence. At this time it be amiss of me not to single out two citizens
for special thanks. Marcus Octavius Germanicus who stepped up and helped
with all electronic problems here in Nova Roma, and finally former Consul and
future Censor Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus for not despairing the Republic.

Farewell and Happy New Year from Las Vegas!
Q. Fabius Maximus
Proconsul

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Subject:	[novaroma] New Year Wishes
From:	"Pompeia Cornelia" <scriba_forum@-------->
Date:	Mon, 01 Jan 2001 01:44:10 -0000

Salvete!

To the Senate, Magistrates and Populace of Nova Roma:

My hopes for a New Year filled with happiness and good fortune.

See you in 2754 AUC!!


Pompeia Cornelia Strabo

_________________________________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] Public Oath of Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
From:	Christer Edling <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Mon, 1 Jan 2001 02:21:55 +0100

Hereby I with the Senate and Populus as witnesses swear the Oath as a
magistrate of Nova Roma:

I, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus do hereby solemnly swear to uphold the honor
of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests of the people and the
Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus swear to honor
the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue the
Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus swear to uphold and defend the Religio Romana
as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a way that
would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus swear to protect and defend the Constitution
of Nova Roma.

I, Caeso Fabius Quintilianus further swear to fulfill the obligations and
responsibilities of the office of quaestor to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods and
Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I accept the
position of quaestor and all the rights, privileges, obligations, and
responsibilities attendant thereto.
Ave et salve

Christer Edling
alias
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
SHAMALI SALUKIS
************************************************
CAMELOT ROLEPLAYING WORKSHOP
Robert Andersson & Christer Edling
************************************************
IF GAMES - If reality was different!
Markus Sundbom & Christer Edling
************************************************
MAIN E-MAIL ADDRESS: tjalens.h@--------
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80

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Subject:	[novaroma] Elections of Quaestores and A Compulsory Cursus Honorum
From:	Christer Edling <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Mon, 1 Jan 2001 03:16:29 +0100

Salvete;
About the issue of A Compulsory Cursus Honorum there are many aspects, I
will be back about the issues that Honorable Consul Quintus Fabius Maximus
was kind enough to answer in respons to my questions.

Here I especially want to bring back to the surface a few aspects of the
latest election of quaestores:

1. The Respublica according to the constitution need 8 questores, two as
assistants for the consuls, two as assistants for the praetores and lastly
four as assistants for the aediles, summa summarum 8 quaestores. There were
8 candidates, but only 6 were elected because, two candidates didn't get
majority in any tribe. I think this depends on the fact that there was
taken a senatus consultum that meant that You could only vote for one
canddate per office. This is OK when it comes to offices with one (censor)
or two positions (consuls and praetores) but when it comes to offices with
as many as 8 positions the votes of the tribes simply are not enough. When
it comes to quaestores it would be better if the citizens could vote for
all 8 needeed positions or for let's say half (4 positions). This is a
problem as this election shows. Of course making a different rule about
electing quaestores also is a problem, maybe someone else will find a
better solution than I have done?

2. As a result of this problem a quaestor can be elected by himself as I
was. I am brought up in a tradition that says that You shall not candidate
for any "office" if You not are prepared to vote for yourself and hereby
officially declare that You are fit for the position. This I did and see
what happened, I was elected. ;-) Citizens who have not been brought up in
the same traditon as I have (I guess) where not elected, although they can
be more suited for the "job" then I am. It is OK that people vote for
themselves, I think ;-), but we should see to it that no one can be elected
by the vote of one citizen in the future.

3. I also have submitted a proposal to the consuls about one new task for
one or two European quaestores. I think that there should be more specified
tasks for the 6 "extra" quaestores (assistants for praetores and aediles)
and my suggestion is an idea for a beginning of a correction of that
problem.

4. The fact was that all candidates (8) for quaestorship should have been
elected according to the need of the constitution. There should have been
even more candidates (10 - 14) to give the populus a choice. This maybe
could be fixed by making it Compulsory to become a quaestor as the first
step of the Cursus Honorum, this would have forced more persons to start
their career. I don't say that will help, but it certainly should help!

5. If we should have totally Compulsory Cursus Honorum, I don't know yet,
as I said I'll be back to this issue, now I have to go to bed this the
first day of the New Year. Happy New Year to All!
Ave et salve

Christer Edling
alias
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
SHAMALI SALUKIS
************************************************
CAMELOT ROLEPLAYING WORKSHOP
Robert Andersson & Christer Edling
************************************************
IF GAMES - If reality was different!
Markus Sundbom & Christer Edling
************************************************
MAIN E-MAIL ADDRESS: tjalens.h@--------
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80

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Subject:	[novaroma] Oath of Office
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Mon, 1 Jan 2001 00:31:55 -0500

I, Priscilla Vedia Serena, do hereby solemnly swear to uphold the honor of
Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests of the people and the
Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Priscilla Vedia Serena, swear to honor the
Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue the Roman
Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Priscilla Vedia Serena, swear to uphold and defend the Religio Romana as
the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a way that would
threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Priscilla Vedia Serena, swear to protect and defend the Constitution of
Nova Roma.

I, Priscilla Vedia Serena, further swear to fulfill the obligations and
responsibilities of the office of Curatrix Sermo to the best of my
abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods and
Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I accept the
position of Cuartrix Sermo and all the rights, privileges, obligations, and
responsibilities attendant thereto.


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Subject:	[novaroma] List information
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Mon, 1 Jan 2001 00:49:24 -0500

Salve,

Having tendered my official Oath of Office moments ago, I thought it prudent
to start my term of service with a few brief words. I would be remiss if I
did not first offer my sincere thanks to Patricia Cassia for her work as
Curatrix. It was not often stated perhaps, but I know that I am not alone
in my admiration for her dedication and dignity as she fulfilled her duties.
It is my hope to follow her lead and maintain the tradition of excellence
she has established.

As with any transition, there are a few changes to take note of:

1. Reply feature: the settings for the list have been changed in such a way
that simple use of the "reply" key will send your message to the main list,
as opposed to the individual author. Please continue to use care when
deciding which messages are for public consumption and which would be better
sent in private.

2. Moderation: I will, in the coming week or so, be seeking to appoint a
scribus or two to assist with the moderation of this list. Primarily this
is due to the upcoming birth of our first child, but I also believe that
having assistance is something rarely to be avoided and often to be thankful
for. As such, those who had previously held moderation status will note
they have reverted to "regular" member status, and I will be adding
moderation status to the appointed scribae.

3. Etiquette: I believe you will find that the sound judgment shown in the
current list settings will continue uninterrupted. I will be making some
minor modifications to the official "welcome" file that all members receive
upon subscription to the list, and I will make it known here when that
document is completed so that any interested parties may peruse it at their
pleasure.

I am looking forward to the coming year of service as one that will
undoubtedly bring its share of challenges but will always be interesting. I
have enjoyed being a member of this list since the birth of our nation, and
I am humbled and honored to have this chance to serve her. If, at any
point, you have a concern or question you may always approach me directly
via e-mail at the e-dress below and I will be happy to help in whatever way
I can.

Vale,
Priscilla Vedia Serena
mail to: justicecmo@--------



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Subject:	[novaroma] Oath of Office
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 1 Jan 2001 01:00:47 -0500

I, Flavius Vedius Germanicus do hereby solemnly swear to uphold the honor of
Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests of the people and the
Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Flavius Vedius Germanicus swear to honor
the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue the
Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Flavius Vedius Germanicus swear to uphold and defend the Religio Romana
as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a way that
would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Flavius Vedius Germanicus swear to protect and defend the Constitution of
Nova Roma.

I, Flavius Vedius Germanicus further swear to fulfill the obligations and
responsibilities of the office of Consul to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods and
Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I accept the
position of Consul and all the rights, privileges, obligations, and
responsibilities attendant thereto.


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Subject:	[novaroma] Sacramentum offici Censori
From:	"Lucius Equitius" <vze23hw7@-------->
Date:	Mon, 1 Jan 2001 01:36:10 -0500

I, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus do hereby solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and
private life.

I, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus swear to uphold and defend the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus swear to protect and defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus further swear to fulfill the obligations and responsibilities of the office of Censor to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I accept the position of Censor and all the rights,
privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Elections of Quaestores and A Compulsory Cursus Honorum
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Mon, 1 Jan 2001 00:24:41 -0800 (PST)

Salve Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, and to others who may
read this!

Happy New Year!

I am approaching the issue of the election of
quaestors from a different point of view, in that I
served as Rogator in the year that just ended. I am
providing my comments as another perspective.

I have no opinion yet on a Compulsory Cursus Honorum
and will not comment on it.

--- Christer Edling <tjalens.h@--------> wrote:

> 1. The Respublica according to the constitution need
> 8 questores, two as
> assistants for the consuls, two as assistants for
> the praetores and lastly
> four as assistants for the aediles, summa summarum 8
> quaestores. There were
> 8 candidates, but only 6 were elected because two
> candidates didn't get a
> majority in any tribe. I think this depends on the
> fact that there was
> taken a senatus consultum that meant that You could
> only vote for one
> candidate per office. This is OK when it comes to
> offices with one (censor)
> or two positions (consuls and praetores) but when it
> comes to offices with
> as many as 8 positions the votes of the tribes
> simply are not enough. When
> it comes to quaestores it would be better if the
> citizens could vote for
> all 8 needeed positions or for let's say half (4
> positions). This is a
> problem as this election shows. Of course making a
> different rule about
> electing quaestores also is a problem, maybe someone
> else will find a
> better solution than I have done?

I recommended to the Senate the "one vote per office"
proposal that was selected. I feel it is the easiest
to count, thereby leading to a more accurate result.

We did not discuss the option of allowing multiple
counts for quaestors while allowing just one vote for
the other offices. Quite honestly, I think it would
be confusing, which is why I recommended against the
"one vote per vacancy" option.

Is voting confusing? We had, if I recall correctly,
ten ballots that could not be counted of the about 200
that voted. I would not like to see us to exceed that
5% failure rate.

> 2. As a result of this problem a quaestor can be
> elected by himself as I
> was. I am brought up in a tradition that says that
> You shall not candidate
> for any "office" if You not are prepared to vote for
> yourself and hereby
> officially declare that You are fit for the
> position. This I did and see
> what happened, I was elected. ;-) Citizens who have
> not been brought up in
> the same traditon as I have (I guess) where not
> elected, although they can
> be more suited for the "job" then I am. It is OK
> that people vote for
> themselves, I think ;-), but we should see to it
> that no one can be elected
> by the vote of one citizen in the future.

I agree absolutely that one should vote for him or
herself. However, since the tribes number around
10-12 cives each, that means each of us only gets 1/10
of a vote (rough math)...it's hard to swing a vote
with those odds.

> 3. I also have submitted a proposal to the consuls
> about one new task for
> one or two European quaestores. I think that there
> should be more specified
> tasks for the 6 "extra" quaestores (assistants for
> praetores and aediles)
> and my suggestion is an idea for a beginning of a
> correction of that
> problem.

Your proposal was not given -- I would be interested
in looking at it, since I also live in Europe.

> 4. The fact was that all candidates (8) for
> quaestorship should have been
> elected according to the need of the constitution.
> There should have been
> even more candidates (10 - 14) to give the populus a
> choice. This maybe
> could be fixed by making it Compulsory to become a
> quaestor as the first
> step of the Cursus Honorum, this would have forced
> more persons to start
> their career. I don't say that will help, but it
> certainly should help!

I'm not sure what you mean here. Candidates stood for
the quaestership according to the Constitution. An
election was held according to the Constitution and
six were elected. The Senate and Consuls are, again
in accordance with our Constitution, preparing to fill
the vacant seats in the quaestorship. I can find no
area where the Constitution was not followed in both
spirit and letter.

I agree that more candidates would have given us a
better choice (I do not say that to insult any of the
candidates) and may have led to us having eight
quaesters now. However, MORE VOTERS would may also
have solved the problem -- while you voted, most other
cives did not.

> 5. If we should have totally Compulsory Cursus
> Honorum, I don't know yet,
> as I said I'll be back to this issue, now I have to
> go to bed this the
> first day of the New Year. Happy New Year to All!

Best wishes to you in your new position, and to all
the other new magistrates, in the New Year.

Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus

=====
LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839

"It's what you learn after you know it all that counts." --Jean Rostand

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Subject:	Re: [novaroma] a cognomen added
From:	Christer Edling <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Mon, 1 Jan 2001 13:00:48 +0100

>Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
>and other interested.
>
>C. is the way Romans usually wrote CAIVS (CAIA) aka Caius or Gaius masculine
>or Caia / Gaia femenine
>
>Cn. is the way Romans usually wrote CNAEVS aka Cnaeus or Gnaeus masculine.
>I am not sure of the femenine of the top of my head, sorry, (brain fart)
>
>These being the only two original Roman "first names" you should understand
>that if those initials are used befor a Family name, ther represent the name
>Caius or Cnaeus. All other "First Names" are "imports" to Roman names and
>probably should be spelled out.
>
>I have been signing my Roman letters and articles and stuff as C. Fabius
>for 24 years now, but here at NR I will try and sign .....
>
>C. Fabius Varus
>
>sorry if I forget
>
>Where does the name Caeso originate?

Dear cousin!

I am sorry that my answer is so late, but the new year has taken it's toll
You know. It was never my intention to upset You. Being a naturally
non-English speaking citizen I am sure I handle the language with some
clumsyness. I understand You usuage of the C. and appreciate your promise
to try to add your illustious agnomen to avoid confusion among the members
of our great gens.

with all respect, loyalty of our gens and the Respublica
Vale

Christer Edling
alias
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
SHAMALI SALUKIS
************************************************
CAMELOT ROLEPLAYING WORKSHOP
Robert Andersson & Christer Edling
************************************************
IF GAMES - If reality was different!
Markus Sundbom & Christer Edling
************************************************
MAIN E-MAIL ADDRESS: tjalens.h@--------
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
DOG BOARDING HOUSE PHONE: +90 - 503 56
MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Oath of Office by Q. Fabius Maximus
From:	sfp55@--------
Date:	Mon, 1 Jan 2001 07:01:04 EST

I, Quintus Fabius Maximus I(Stephen Francis Phenow) do hereby solemnly swear
to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests of
the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As one of the Praetors Urbanii of Nova Roma, I, Quintus Fabius Maximus swear
to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue
the
Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Quintus Fabius Maximus swear to uphold and defend the Religio Romana
as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a way that
would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Quintus Fabius Maximus swear to protect and defend the Constitution of
Nova Roma.

I, Quintus Fabius Maximus further swear to fulfill the obligations and
responsibilities of the office of Praetor Urbanus to the best of my
abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods and
Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I accept the
position of Consul and all the rights, privileges, obligations, and
responsibilities attendant thereto.

Quintus Fabius Maximus

And Bacchus (who is upon me.)

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Oath of Office by Q. Fabius Maximus
From:	sfp55@--------
Date:	Mon, 1 Jan 2001 07:02:43 EST

I, Quintus Fabius Maximus I(Stephen Francis Phenow) do hereby solemnly swear
to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests of
the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As one of the Praetors Urbanii of Nova Roma, I, Quintus Fabius Maximus swear
to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue
the
Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Quintus Fabius Maximus swear to uphold and defend the Religio Romana
as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a way that
would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Quintus Fabius Maximus swear to protect and defend the Constitution of
Nova Roma.

I, Quintus Fabius Maximus further swear to fulfill the obligations and
responsibilities of the office of Praetor Urbanus to the best of my
abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods and
Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I accept the
position of Praetor Urbanus and all the rights, privileges, obligations, and
responsibilities attendant thereto.

Quintus Fabius Maximus

And Bacchus (who is upon me.)

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Elections of Quaestores and A Compulsory Cursus Honorum
From:	Christer Edling <tjalens.h@-------->
Date:	Mon, 1 Jan 2001 13:27:54 +0100

Salvete Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus and al citizens!

>Salve Caeso Fabius Quintilianus, and to others who may
>read this!
>
>Happy New Year!
>
>I am approaching the issue of the election of
>quaestors from a different point of view, in that I
>served as Rogator in the year that just ended. I am
>providing my comments as another perspective.

I really appreciate your thoughts.

>I have no opinion yet on a Compulsory Cursus Honorum
>and will not comment on it.
>
>--- Christer Edling <tjalens.h@--------> wrote:
>
>> 1. The Respublica according to the constitution need
>> 8 questores, two as
>> assistants for the consuls, two as assistants for
>> the praetores and lastly
>> four as assistants for the aediles, summa summarum 8
>> quaestores. There were
>> 8 candidates, but only 6 were elected because two
>> candidates didn't get a
>> majority in any tribe. I think this depends on the
>> fact that there was
>> taken a senatus consultum that meant that You could
>> only vote for one
>> candidate per office. This is OK when it comes to
>> offices with one (censor)
>> or two positions (consuls and praetores) but when it
>> comes to offices with
>> as many as 8 positions the votes of the tribes
>> simply are not enough. When
>> it comes to quaestores it would be better if the
>> citizens could vote for
>> all 8 needeed positions or for let's say half (4
>> positions). This is a
>> problem as this election shows. Of course making a
>> different rule about
>> electing quaestores also is a problem, maybe someone
>> else will find a
>> better solution than I have done?
>
>I recommended to the Senate the "one vote per office"
>proposal that was selected. I feel it is the easiest
>to count, thereby leading to a more accurate result.
>
>We did not discuss the option of allowing multiple
>counts for quaestors while allowing just one vote for
>the other offices. Quite honestly, I think it would
>be confusing, which is why I recommended against the
>"one vote per vacancy" option.
>
>Is voting confusing? We had, if I recall correctly,
>ten ballots that could not be counted of the about 200
>that voted. I would not like to see us to exceed that
>5% failure rate.

I understand the reasons behind the decision, but what do we do with the
result: too few quaestores elected by to few electors

>> 2. As a result of this problem a quaestor can be
>> elected by himself as I
>> was. I am brought up in a tradition that says that
>> You shall not candidate
>> for any "office" if You not are prepared to vote for
>> yourself and hereby
>> officially declare that You are fit for the
>> position. This I did and see
>> what happened, I was elected. ;-) Citizens who have
>> not been brought up in
>> the same traditon as I have (I guess) where not
>> elected, although they can
>> be more suited for the "job" then I am. It is OK
>> that people vote for
>> themselves, I think ;-), but we should see to it
>> that no one can be elected
>> by the vote of one citizen in the future.
>
>I agree absolutely that one should vote for him or
>herself. However, since the tribes number around
>10-12 cives each, that means each of us only gets 1/10
>of a vote (rough math)...it's hard to swing a vote
>with those odds.

Was this the real result? I one citizen with more points vote couldn't
he/she win over one other voter with less votes? In this eection wasn't it
possible to win a tribe as a lone voter?
>
>> 3. I also have submitted a proposal to the consuls
>> about one new task for
>> one or two European quaestores. I think that there
>> should be more specified
>> tasks for the 6 "extra" quaestores (assistants for
>> praetores and aediles)
>> and my suggestion is an idea for a beginning of a
>> correction of that
>> problem.
>
>Your proposal was not given -- I would be interested
>in looking at it, since I also live in Europe.

You will see it!

>> 4. The fact was that all candidates (8) for
>> quaestorship should have been
>> elected according to the need of the constitution.
>> There should have been
>> even more candidates (10 - 14) to give the populus a
>> choice. This maybe
>> could be fixed by making it Compulsory to become a
>> quaestor as the first
>> step of the Cursus Honorum, this would have forced
>> more persons to start
>> their career. I don't say that will help, but it
>> certainly should help!
>
>I'm not sure what you mean here. Candidates stood for
>the quaestership according to the Constitution. An
>election was held according to the Constitution and
>six were elected. The Senate and Consuls are, again
>in accordance with our Constitution, preparing to fill
>the vacant seats in the quaestorship. I can find no
>area where the Constitution was not followed in both
>spirit and letter.

Of course the Constitution was followed, but the correct positions was not
possible to fill. My question is why? And my answer is, maybe because of
the election system's weakness when it comes to the elections of
quaestores.? I think all would have been elected if the voters had had the
right to vote for more than one quaestor. I understand your reasons for the
advice You gave to the Senate, maybe it was the only possible one? I just
sit here with the result and ask You and a the citizens if there any
possibility to make the system even better to avoid the "bad" side-effects.

>I agree that more candidates would have given us a
>better choice (I do not say that to insult any of the
>candidates) and may have led to us having eight
>quaesters now. However, MORE VOTERS would may also
>have solved the problem -- while you voted, most other
>cives did not.

More voters would be nice! ;-)

>> 5. If we should have totally Compulsory Cursus
>> Honorum, I don't know yet,
>> as I said I'll be back to this issue, now I have to
>> go to bed this the
>> first day of the New Year. Happy New Year to All!
>
>Best wishes to you in your new position, and to all
>the other new magistrates, in the New Year.

Thanks for your support and for your excellent job as a Rogator!

>Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus
Vale

Christer Edling
alias
Caeso Fabius Quintilianus
************************************************
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
"I'll either find a way or make one"
************************************************
"Do not give in to hate. That leads to the dark side."
************************************************
SHAMALI SALUKIS
************************************************
CAMELOT ROLEPLAYING WORKSHOP
Robert Andersson & Christer Edling
************************************************
IF GAMES - If reality was different!
Markus Sundbom & Christer Edling
************************************************
MAIN E-MAIL ADDRESS: tjalens.h@--------
************************************************
PRIVATE PHONE: +90 - 10 09 10
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MOBILE: +70 - 643 88 80

Subject:	[novaroma] Senate results: votes and comments
From:	Ira Adams <iadams@-------->
Date:	Mon, 1 Jan 2001 06:31:59 -0600

Salvete Quirites!

I present below a compilation of the Senate's votes and comments on the
items of the December agenda (the offical tallies of the votes and
determination of the status of each item will be announced by the
Consules):

Prefacing remarks --
Patricia Cassia: Before I vote, I ask the guidance of
Roma and Minerva for us all, and may
Fortuna bless our outgoing Consuls,
Quintus Fabius Maximus and Marcus
Minucius Audens, for their dedication,
energy and patience.
Marcus Cassius Julianus: (none)
Caius Aelius Ericius: (none)
Marcus Marcius Rex: (none)
Marcus Octavius Germanicus: I ask Minerva to come to
the aid of the Senate and
grant us the wisdom to
give these proposals proper
consideration.
Flavius Vedius Germanicus: And before I issue my own
votes, I would like to extend
my personal thanks to both
of our Esteemed Consuls for
their dedication and hard
work in the past year. They
have both done an
outstanding job, and I only
hope to do as well in
the coming year. Thank you,
Gentlemen.
Lucius Cornelius Sulla: Comment: I don't know exactly
what to say, but that it was an
honor to be apart of Nova Roma
during the Consulship of Q.Fabius
Maximus and M. Municius Audens.
Nova Roma prospered under your
guidance. I respect both of you
immensely.
Marcus Iunius Iulianus: [proxies cast by L. Cornelius Sulla]
Marcus Minucius Audens: Before I make my vote
known, at this time I should
like to voice my pleasure in
working with such a dedicated
group of people in the past
year. Acting as Junior Consul
has been a growing experience,
one demanding hard decisions,
patience and understanding.
It would have been most
difficult to do were it not for
those of this body with whom I
have had the pivaledge to work
closely and the hard working
Senior Consul at my side. I
hope that the Consuls-Elect
may have as rewarding an
experience as I have had in
the year ahead.
I now step to the Front of the
Forum, and draw my toga over
my head, and stand in respect
of those Gods of Rome who have
tolerated and given of that grace
they have to give, in my work
here. I stand for a moment of
silence to show the respect that
I feel for the vision and
accomplishment perpetrated in
the worship of these dieties who
represent the founding of this
great Roman Culture and have
given thier assured strength to
the reestablishment of Nova
Roma in the modern day.
Titus Labienus Fortunatus: (none)
Marcus Mucius Scaevola Magister: (none)
Quintus Fabius Maximus: I pray to Minervia guide
me in the following
Decius Iunius Palladius: Thank you consuls Quintus
Fabius Maximus and Marcus
Minucius Audens for all you
have done for Nova Roma
during the past year. It's
not an easy job but you have
done well. Before casting my
vote, I continue the ancient
tradition and offer my
prayers at the Altar of
Victory. I hope I am not being
presumptous in offering this
prayer on behalf of the senate...
Salve Victoria, Magna Dea!
Once again the Senate of Rome
prays to you. We have not
forgotten you. Give us your
strength to guide Nova Roma
into the future. We swear on
your Altar to do as we think is
best for our Republic and ask
for you to help us triumph over
adversity. We hope our
offerings please you, whatever
each of us is able to give. Ita est!
Salve Iuppiter! Si sciens fallo,
tum me Dispiter salva urbe
arceque bonis eiciat ut ego
hunc lapidem.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> Item the First The Budget
> The budget is submitted with one additional item
> (Vedius) to the Senate for approval.
> Shall it be done?
P. Cassia: Uti rogas. (Yes.)
M. Cassius Julianus: Uti Rogas. It will be helpful to get
some solid financial controls in place.
C. Aelius Ericius: Uti Rogas (Yes.)
M. Marcius Rex: Uti rogas (yes)
M. Octavius Germanicus: Uti Rogas
F. Vedius Germanicus: Vti Rogas.
L. Cornelius Sulla: Vti Rogas
M. Iunius Iulianus: Vti Rogas
M. Minucius Audens: Vti Rogas; My thanks again to
Senator Cassia for her valued
assistance in putting this budget
together. Her computer skills,
number determination and ideas
were extremely valuable in
completing this task.
T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: Uti Rogas.
Q. Fabius Maximus: VTI ROGAS
D. Iunius Palladius: Uti Rogas
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> Item the Second
> "Legalizing" a Cursus Honorum.
> Shall we approve this?
P. Cassia: Negat. (No. Nova Roma cannot afford to
limit the pool of candidates in this early
stage of its development.)
M. Cassius Julianus: Negat. While I respect the
sentiment behind this proposal,
I cannot recommend a full
historical Cursus Honorum as a
benefit to Nova Roma at this
time. We have discussed other
measures that seem more in
keeping with our actual present
resources and needs - I hope to
support some of those alternate
measures in future votes.
C. Aelius Ericius: Negat. (No. It is counter productive
for Nova Roma to limit the pool of
candidates in this early stage of
its development.)
M. Marcius Rex: Negat (no) It is far too soon for
something as restrictive as this
proposal. The Lex Iunia de aetate
magistratum and the requirements
for provincial governors are already
more than Nova Roma needs in limiting
the number prospective magistrates.
M. Octavius Germanicus: Negat. Although I'm strongly
in favor of some sort of
Cursus Honorum, as evidenced
by my arguments on the main
list, I firmly believe that
provincial offices should be
considered as a qualifaction
for the senior magistracies.
There are several provincial
governors who have shown
great dedication, and have
worked as hard as anyone
else here, who deserve to be
Consul. With this proposal,
these propraetors could not
be praetor, consul, or censor
in 2002, but would have to
take a junior position for that
entire year in order to qualify
in 2003. There are citizens
who have been elected Aedile
or Quaestor and then done
absolutely nothing while in
office. It is not right that they
should be considered worthy
candidates for Consul, and the
hard-working propraetors of
Britannia, Germania, and Canada
Occidentalis (among others) be
excluded. If this proposal fails
now, we can revise it to be
inclusive and vote again next
month.
F. Vedius Germanicus: Negat. I believe that, with the
discussion currently underway
on the main list, and so many
different ideas being tossed
around, it would be premature
for us to decide on any such
plan at this time.
L. Cornelius Sulla: Negat
Comments: I preferred the draft presented by M. Octavius Germanicus.
M. Iunius Iulianus: Negat
M. Minucius Audens: Negat; It is my belief that the Cursus
Honorium should be viewed as an honor
and not a requirement. When, after
the 1st of the new year, I will be the
second in Nova Roma to complete the
Cursus Honorium, my pride in that
accomplishment will be because I chose
to do so, not because I was forced to do
so, and because I chose to learn more
about NR, rather than to seek after a
political position in and of itself.
T. Labienus Fortunatus: NEGAT If we're going to
recommend, rather than require,
let us simply recommend that
candidates follow the ancient
tradition. I am utterly opposed to
any attempt to require candidates
to follow a modern cursus honorum
--because of the inflexibility
required by leges, the attempt to
legislate tradition, and the
unnecessary departure from ancient
practice. Therefore, I would much
prefer to see language like, "The
Senate strongly recommends...,"
rather than, "Candidates must..."
We are issuing advice, not leges.
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: Negat. This is premature,
given NR's short existence
and the likely shortage of
qualified candidates. In the
long run we will need a Cursus
Honorum, but when we do so
we also need the other side -
a Lex Annalis requiring
magistrates to take a break
after their term of office to
make room for new blood.
Q. Fabius Maximus: Since the proposal has the word
"Tribune" instead of "Praetor" it
is incorrect. NEGAT
D. Iunius Palladius: Uti Rogas I think this is a just
compromise from the full cursus
honorum proposed by some. It just
requires that you have been elected
to a Nova Roma wide office and
served your full term. It also
eliminates the waivers for propraetors
which I think is important. To serve in
a major Nova Roma-wide office, you
must have experience in the other
elected offices. Provincial offices can
prepare you for those lesser offices
but not for censor or consul. Octavius
makes the point that some elected
officials can be elected and never be
heard from. Well, there are several
propraetors who are never heard from.
In fact, their track is not as good as
those in elected offices.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> Item the Third,
> Approval of the Senate of underage candidates
> elected by the people in the last election.
> Shall Sextus Apollonius Draco be given permission
> to assume the office the people elected him to?
P. Cassia: Uti Rogas (Yes.)
M. Cassius Julianus: Uti Rogas.
C. Aelius Ericius: Uti Rogas (Yes.)
M. Marcius Rex: Uti rogas (Yes) The people have spoken
and they have spoken well!
M. Octavius Germanicus: Uti Rogas. His campaign site
showed some interesting plans,
and I'd like to see him given the
chance to implement them.
F. Vedius Germanicus: Negat. On the main email list, he
has consistently shown a level of
immaturity that demonstrates why
we have such an age requirement.
Energy and enthusiasm does not
equal maturity and readiness for office.
L. Cornelius Sulla: Negat Comment: Political disagreements
I can handle. I believe I show that I can.
However, one, no matter how young or old,
insults a senior in the magisterial hierarchy.
For one to do that shows disrespect to
every political office in Nova Roma. This
means that not only is he insulting my
dignitas but he is insulting the dignitas of
the Consuls, Praetors and Senators.
M. Iunius Iulianus: Negat
M. Minucius Audens: Negat; In my view the laws are clear.
While I appreciate the value of Draco's
efforts on the internet, and his skill
and ideas, until the law is changed I do
not see myself clear to overrule a
majority decision of the Senate in this
item, or to imposing a mind untempered
by life experience upon this Micronation.
T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS S Apollonius has shown
enthusiasm, energy, and at least as
much maturity as most of our
current magistrates. Indeed, his very
few outbursts have been rather tame
compared to some of the things said
by those who ostensibly know better.
He is certainly more than qualified to
be an aedile.
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: Uti Rogas.
Q. Fabius Maximus: NEGAT He has much to still learn about
respecting the offices of the Magistrates.
He can dislike the people who are in them,
but he should respect the office itself.
D. Iunius Palladius: Palladius votes No. He is far below the age
limit and never approached the senate or
censors to ask for a waiver even though he
was aware of the law. He did not start on
a good foot so to speak.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> 2. Rogator (designatus) Marcus Scribonius Curio Britannicus
> 23&1/2
> Citizen since 2000/06/04
> \Shall Marcus Scribonius Curio be given permission to
> assume the office the people elected him to?
P. Cassia: Uti Rogas (Yes.) Both of these young gentlemen
have been active in positions for which their age
did not disqualify them, and I believe their energy
and dedication outweighs any possible disadvantage
that may attach to their youth.
M. Cassius Julianus: Uti Rogas. These two Citizens have shown
above average participation and zeal, so I
see no reason to not respect the will of
the Comitia Centuriata in this matter.
C. Aelius Ericius: Uti Rogas (Yes.) It has been pointed out that
Curio Britannicus is not underage for this
position because the required age for Rogator
is 21 years of age. [This item is a comment
on counter productive limitations being placed
on people who are willing to serve Nova Roma.]
M. Marcius Rex: Uti rogas (yes)
M. Octavius Germanicus: Uti Rogas. This is a job that's
been hard to fill; surely someone
who has proven he is willing to do
it should be granted the
opportunity.
F. Vedius Germanicus: Vti Rogas. As he is over the age
of 21, he does not fall under the
restriction of the Lex Iunia de
Magistratum Aetate in the first place.
L. Cornelius Sulla: Vti Rogas Comments: I am truly
curious about his age at this point.
According to the official documents
on the Album Civium he is not under
aged. But he consistently has sought
relief from the Lex Iunia. I will try to
contact him and try to get the correct
information. When I get the correct
information from him I will let this
honorable body know what I have found out.
M. Iunius Iulianus: Vti Rogas
M. Minucius Audens: Vti Rogas (if his age is NOT a factor);
T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS, whether he needs it or not.
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: Uti Rogas.
Q. Fabius Maximus: Since age was not a factor here, I'd
say ABSTAINO
D. Iunius Palladius: Uti Rogas. He correctly approached
the senate several times about
receiving a waiver.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> Item the Fourth Reimbursement Procedure
> If approved This procedure replaces the previously
> enacted policy on expenses, but retains the principles
> of financial accountability contained therein.
> The form associated with that policy is still valid, for
> those who wish to use it, but is not required.
> Shall we approve this?
P. Cassia: Uti rogas (Yes.)
M. Cassius Julianus: Uti Rogas.
C. Aelius Ericius: Uti rogas (Yes.)
M. Marcius Rex: Uti rogas (yes)
M. Octavius Germanicus: Uti Rogas
F. Vedius Germanicus: Vti Rogas.
L. Cornelius Sulla: Vti Rogas
M. Iunius Iulianus: Vti Rogas
M. Minucius Audens: Vti Rogas;
T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: Negat. In its present form this
still contains the unwise
technophile
suggestion that the Censors
need
not maintain paper records.
Q. Fabius Maximus: VTI ROGAS
D. Iunius Palladius: Uti Rogas
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> Item the Fifth.
> That the Senate should discuss the issue of the powers
> of the Tribunes, in Nova Roma.
> This Item was tabled for further discussion.
M. Cassius Julianus: Abstaino, obviously.
M. Marcius Rex: Abstineo (abstain)
F. Vedius Germanicus: Abstaino.
M. Minucius Audens: Abstaino;
T. Labienus Fortunatus: ABSTINEO Flavius Vedius is correct. This item
needs to be discussed in a larger forum than this one.
Q. Fabius Maximus: ABSTANIO
D. Iunius Palladius:
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> Item the Sixth
> The Consuls request that the Censors & Senate adds
> the name Lucius Sergius Australicus to the Senate Rolls.
> Shall this be done?
P. Cassia: Uti rogas (Yes.) Australicus and I have not always
seen eye to eye, but no one doubts his dedication
and intelligence.
M. Cassius Julianus: Uti Rogas.
C. Aelius Ericius: Uti rogas (Yes.) Old Obstinatus has proven
his worth and commitment many times over,
and not only in this past year when he did
more than one person's work.
M. Marcius Rex: Uti rogas. I believe Lucius Sergius did an
excellent job as Tribune and deserves his
permanent seat in the Senate.
M. Octavius Germanicus: Uti Rogas. He was an excellent
Tribune, and has earned his place
here.
F. Vedius Germanicus: Vti Rogas.
L. Cornelius Sulla: Vti Rogas
M. Iunius Iulianus: Vti Rogas
M. Minucius Audens: Vti Rogas; It is my extreme pleasure to
welcome this Tribune to his well-deserved
and well-earned seat in the Senate. He
has fulfilled the expectations of both his
office and his responsibilities by working
hard for Nova Roma. He serves, in my
estimation, as one who has the best
interests of this micro-nation at heart,
and who is willing to work hard for her,
and thus is always well-recieved where
I have any standing at all!!!
T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: Uti Rogas. A very strong case.
Q. Fabius Maximus: VTI ROGAS With pleasure I vote for this.
D. Iunius Palladius: Uti Rogas
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> Item the Seventh
> M. Octavius Germanicus submits his application to become
> Propraetor of Lacus Magni provincia.
> Shall he be appointed?
P. Cassia: Uti rogas (Yes.) Octavius will do us credit in this position.
M. Cassius Julianus: Uti Rogas, and I look forward to new
growth and interest for Nova Roma in
the Lacus Magni region if he is elected! :)
C. Aelius Ericius: Uti rogas (Yes.)
M. Marcius Rex: Uti rogas (yes) I think our esteemed
senatorial colleague fulfills all the
requirements in the Senatus Consultum
de Propraetores.
M. Octavius Germanicus: Abstineo.
F. Vedius Germanicus: Vti Rogas.
L. Cornelius Sulla: Vti Rogas
M. Iunius Iulianus: Vti Rogas
M. Minucius Audens: Vti Rogas; My deepest thanks for
your exceptional work in the past
year, and for your skillful words
and support of the principles of
this micronation. I am honored to
have you as a colleague and to support
you for this important Provincial Post
in Nova Roma.
T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: Uti Rogas.
Q. Fabius Maximus: VTI ROGAS I can think of no better man
for the job.
D. Iunius Palladius: Uti Rogas
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> Item the Eighth
> Marcus Arminius Maior, submits his name to be Praetor
> of the Provincia of Brazil.
> Shall he be appointed?
P. Cassia: Uti rogas (Yes.) I look forward to hearing more
from this Provincia.
M. Cassius Julianus: Uti Rogas. I have been impressed with
the information from M. Arminius Maior
so far, and believe he will do well.
C. Aelius Ericius: Uti rogas (Yes.)
M. Marcius Rex: Uti rogas (yes) Although I do not know
whether he fulfills all the requirements in
the Senatus Consultum de Propraetores....
I guess the Senior Consul must have checked
beforehand as he is all for restricting citizens
from becoming magistrates if they do not
fulfill all necessary conditions....
M. Octavius Germanicus: Uti Rogas. It's a large province, it needs
a propraetor, and Arminius has
proven
himself worthy.
F. Vedius Germanicus: Vti Rogas. It will be good to see that well-
populated province active.
L. Cornelius Sulla: Vti Rogas
M. Iunius Iulianus: Vti Rogas
M. Minucius Audens: Vti Rogas
T. Labienus Fortunatus: UTI ROGAS
M. Mucius Scaevola Magister: Uti Rogas.
Q. Fabius Maximus: Marcus Arminius Maior is qualified to lead the
province. We will expect great things from
Brazil.
D. Iunius Palladius: Uti Rogas
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

With this act, I have discharged the last of my duties as Tribunus Plebis
for the past year.
I thank all of Nova Roma for the honor of serving the Republic, and I
wish success and good fortune to the new Tribunes and the other newly
elected magistrates.

Valete,

Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus
Tribunus Plebis

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Elections of Quaestores and A Compulsory Cursus Honorum
From:	Jeff Smith <JSmithCSA@-------->
Date:	Mon, 1 Jan 2001 05:34:16 -0800 (PST)

Salvete!

> I understand the reasons behind the decision, but
> what do we do with the
> result: too few quaestores elected by to few
> electors

The plan has already been announced on the main list
to solicit the Senate to hold another election to fill
the last two quaesterships. This tends to negate part
of your argument since, in some ways, the system is
designed to handle this kind of thing.

> Was this the real result? I one citizen with more
> points vote couldn't
> he/she win over one other voter with less votes? In
> this eection wasn't it
> possible to win a tribe as a lone voter?

Remember that we vote by tribe -- the person who gets
the majority of votes in a tribe wins the tribes vote.

Each voter makes a difference, of course. There are,
as you probably know, 35 tribes -- 31 rural and 4
urban.

The urban tribes consist of those who did not vote in
the last annual (December) election. In the last
election there were 78, 77, 74, and 69 members in the
four urban tribes. That means one voter SHOULD have
been 1/78th, 1/77th, 1/74th, or 1/69th of a vote. As
it turns out, each urban tribe got about a 20% voter
turn-out, so the odds (and hence the impact of a
single vote) were actually better than those I just
listed.

The rural tribes are those who are not in the urban
tribes. Nine of them had 10 members, 18 had 11, 2 had
12, and one each had 13 and 14, so the mean is 11 per
tribe. This means a typical voter SHOULD have had
about 1/11th of a vote. In fact, turn-out was not
100%. In six tribes, only two people voted; three had
three voters; nine had four voters; five had five
voters; six had six voters; and two had seven voters.
[I will not give out which tribe is which.]

How important is one person's vote? Although our
individual votes are always significant, they are
especially significant when turn-out is low, as it was
in this election.

Part of the duties of the Rogatores, informally, is to
get out the vote. In that light, I published a plea
on the list to do so. As you and I have both stated,
more candidates and more voters will make a healthier
electoral system.

You mentioned a point advantage: that is significant
only in the centuries, not the tribes. The centuries
(where we elect the Censores, Consules, Praetores, and
vote on Lexes) are grouped into 5 classes according to
how many points you have. This means that a person
with a lot of points can make more of a difference in
the centuries than someone with fewer points, since
the higher you go, the fewer people there are in each
century.

> Of course the Constitution was followed, but the
> correct positions was not
> possible to fill. My question is why? And my answer
> is, maybe because of
> the election system's weakness when it comes to the
> elections of
> quaestores? I think all would have been elected if
> the voters had had the
> right to vote for more than one quaestor. I
> understand your reasons for the
> advice You gave to the Senate, maybe it was the only
> possible one? I just
> sit here with the result and ask You and a the
> citizens if there any
> possibility to make the system even better to avoid
> the "bad" side-effects.

At the risk of insulting those candidates for quaester
who did not win (and I do not want to insult them in
any way, in fact, I salute them for running), I am not
sure that there was a "bad side-effect". For whatever
reason, some candidates were unable to muster enough
votes in a tribe to win. We need to face the fact
that in most elections, there are winners and losers.
There were also candidates for other offices that did
not win.

Would you prefer to award the office to a candidate
merely for running, even if they did not get a single
vote? (Remember that in our system, the true vote is
cast not by you or me, but by the century and tribe to
which we belong.) I would not.

I appreciate your ideas on this. I'm always willing
to hear a better idea! We just couldn't come up with
one. Although I am an "ex-Rogator" now for about 14
hours, I would be willing to work with you to develop
a better election system, which we could then present
to the new Rogatores.

Lucius Aetius Dalmaticus

=====
LTC JEFFREY C. SMITH
HQ USAREUR/7A
CMR 420, BOX 2839
APO AE 09063-2839

"It's what you learn after you know it all that counts." --Jean Rostand

__________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] Oath of Office - Marcus Cassius Julianus
From:	cassius622@--------
Date:	Mon, 1 Jan 2001 08:55:21 EST

Salvete Omnes,

My first action of this new year is to take the proper oath as Consul and
magistrate:

I, Marcus Cassius Julianus do hereby solemnly swear to uphold the honor of
Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests of the people and the
Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Marcus Cassius Julianus swear to honor
the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue the
Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Marcus Cassius Julianus swear to uphold and defend the Religio Romana
as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a way that
would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Marcus Cassius Julianus swear to protect and defend the Constitution of
Nova Roma.

I, Marcus Cassius Julianus further swear to fulfill the obligations and
responsibilities of the office of Consul to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods and
Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I accept the
position of Consul and all the rights, privileges, obligations, and
responsibilities attendant thereto.


Valete,

Marcus Cassius Julianus
Consul, Senator, Pontifex Maximus



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[novaroma] Iusiurandum Tribuni Plebis
From:	Gian G Reali <piscinus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 1 Jan 2001 05:09:34 -0800

Cn. Moravius Piscinus Senatoribus Quiritibusque SPD:

Pro Di immortales:

I, Gneaus Moravius Piscinus, do hereby solemnly swear to uphold the
honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests of the people
and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Gneaus Moravius Piscinus, swear to
honor
the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue the
Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Gneaus Moravius Piscinus, do swear to uphold and defend the Religio
Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a way
that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Gneaus Moravius Piscinus, swear to protect and defend the
Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Gneaus Moravius Piscinus, do further swear to fulfill the obligations
and
responsibilities of the office of Tribunus Plebis to the best of my
abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods
and
Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I accept
the position of Tribunus Plebis and all the rights, privileges,
obligations and responsibilities attendant thereto.

Subject:	[novaroma] Oath of Office - Marcus Octavius Germanicus
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <hucke@-------->
Date:	Mon, 1 Jan 2001 09:26:26 -0600 (CST)

I, Marcus Octavius Germanicus (aka Matt Hucke) do hereby solemnly swear to
uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests of
the People and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Marcus Octavius Germanicus, swear to honor
the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue the
Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Marcus Octavius Germanicus, swear to uphold and defend the Religio Romana
as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a way that
would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Marcus Octavius Germanicus, swear to protect and defend the Constitution
of Nova Roma.

I, Marcus Octavius Germanicus, further swear to fulfill the obligations
and responsibilities of the offices of Propraetor and Curator Araneae
to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods
and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I accept
the positions of Propraetor and Curator Araneae and all the rights,
privileges, obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.

I swear this by the Divine Augustus, my adopted ancestor; by Minerva,
who I ask to guide me in my duties; and by Iuppiter Optimus Maximus.

Marcus Octavius Germanicus

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneae et Senator

Subject:	[novaroma] Oath of Office by Caius Flavius Diocletianus
From:	Caius Flavius Diocletianus <3s@-------->
Date:	Mon, 01 Jan 2001 17:05:42 +0100

> I, Caius Flavius Diocletianus (Matthias Stappert) do hereby solemnly
> swear
> to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best
> interests of
> the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.
>
> As one of the Praetors Urbanii of Nova Roma, I, Caius Flavius
> Diocletianus swear
> to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to
> pursue
> the
> Roman Virtues in my public and private life.
>
> I, Caius Flavius Diocletianus swear to uphold and defend the Religio
> Romana
> as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a way
> that
> would threaten its status as the State Religion.
>
> I, Caius Flavius Diocletianus swear to protect and defend the
> Constitution of
> Nova Roma.
>
> I, Caius Flavius Diocletianus further swear to fulfill the
> obligations and
> responsibilities of the office of Praetor Urbanus to the best of my
> abilities.
>
> On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the
> Gods and
> Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I
> accept the
> position of Praetor Urbanus and all the rights, privileges,
> obligations, and
> responsibilities attendant thereto.
>
> Caius Flavius Diocletianus

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Senate results: votes and comments
From:	Piparskegg UllRsson <catamount_grange@-------->
Date:	Mon, 01 Jan 2001 10:15:03 -0600

Salvete Omnes!

Venator scripsit:

Ira Adams wrote:
>
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> > Item the Seventh
> > M. Octavius Germanicus submits his application to become
> > Propraetor of Lacus Magni provincia.
> > Shall he be appointed?
>
> (snip 12 yes, 1 abstention)
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>

Bravo Marcus Octavius!

Onward with building community in our province!

--
===========================================
In Amicus sub Fidelis, Benedicte Omnes!
- Piperbarbus Ullerius Venator
Cives, Paterfamilias Gens Ulleria
Quæstor, Dominus Sodalis
My homestead
http://www.geocities.com/piparskegg/index.html
Nova Roma website
http://www.novaroma.org/main.html
Sodalis pro Coqueror et Coquus
http://www.egroups.com/group/Sodalis_Coq_et_Coq

Subject:	[novaroma] Happy New Year!
From:	gmvick32@--------
Date:	Mon, 01 Jan 2001 10:26:19 -0700

Salvete, Quirities!

This is to wish everybody a happy and prosperous New Year.

I take this time to reflect on Janus, the god of doorways,
portals, keys, beginnings, and endings. It is the end of
one period, the beginning of another, and the passage
between the two is more than simply a step across another
revolution of the clock from just another day into just
another day.

Today many of us are dusting off our lives.....finishing the
resolutions of last year, engaged in setting the pace for
this year.....but it is also today that we embrace our
public magistrates of yesterday and thank them for their
service....and then turn to our new magistrates as they take
up the Oath of office and begin their year of service to
Nova Roma.

To the parting magistrates, my grateful thanks for all you
have done in the past year for the benefit of Nova Roma.

To all the incoming magistrates, I look forward to the
coming year and serving under you to continue building our
Res Publica.

To all the Quirities of Nova Roma, may Fortuna smile upon
you, may Concordia be by your side, and may the best
examples of the Roman virtues serve as your beacons in the
dark every day of this year of Roma 2374, the fourth of Nova
Roma, the first of the new Millenium.

In parting, on this day of looking forward, it is most
appropriate to ask.....Ubi sunt qui ante nos
fuerunt.....Where are those who lived before us? For we
Nova Romans, Janus lives with us every day and in every act
as we take up that question, knowingly or not, in all our
purpose for our micronation. So....to the ancients of Roma,
I entreat you to smile on us, be pleased with our efforts,
and guide us as we continue to honor you and rebuild your
glory. You are the glue that binds us together.

Valete,
Livia Cornelia Aurelia

Subject:	[novaroma] Oath of Office - Lucilla Cornelia Cinna
From:	Lucilla Cornelia Cinna <CorneliaLucilla@-------->
Date:	Mon, 01 Jan 2001 18:43:51 +0100

I, Lucilla Cornelia Cinna (Iris Kammerer), do hereby solemnly swear to uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests of the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Lucilla Cornelia Cinna, swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to pursue the Roman virtues in public and private life.

I, Lucilla Cornelia Cinna, swear to uphold and defend the Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Lucilla Cornelia Cinna, swear to protect and defend the Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Lucilla Cornelia Cinna, further swear to fulfill the obligations and responsibilities of the office of Quaestor to the best of my abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I accept the position of Quaestor and all the rights, privileges, obligations, and
responsibilities attendant thereto.


_________________________________________________________
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Subject:	[novaroma] Curator Araneae requests photos and assistance
From:	Marcus Octavius Germanicus <hucke@-------->
Date:	Mon, 1 Jan 2001 11:47:26 -0600 (CST)

Salvete Quirites,

The page on novaroma.org listing the present year's magistrates has
been updated - or rather, completely replaced with a new version in
a completely different format. This shows the newly-elected magistrates
for the current year in order of seniority. Provincial officers and
scribae are temporarily missing; I'll be working on separate areas
for these next.

As you can see, the layout of this page is designed to prominently
feature photos of each magistrate. Thus, I call upon all newly-elected
magistrates (and all other citizens) to email a photograph of yourself to
webmaster@--------, which I would then crop to 150x150 and
place upon your personal Album Civium page, and, where applicable, the
Magistrates and Senate pages.

Additionally, as Curator Araneae, I am now requesting applications
for scribae to work on www.novaroma.org and other official sites.
I am primarily a programmer myself, building database applications
and maintaining the server. I seek persons knowledgeable in
HTML and site maintenance, willing to take responsibility for
a portion of the site or work on miscellaneous pages as requested.
Additionally, we need graphic artists who could design icons,
section headings, and banner images. Anyone interested, please
mail webmaster@-------- and include URLs of your previous
projects.

Thanks and Valete, Octavius

--
M. Octavius Germanicus
Propraetor, Lacus Magni
Curator Araneae et Senator

Subject:	[novaroma] Avete Novi Senatores
From:	"Lucius Equitius" <vze23hw7@-------->
Date:	Mon, 1 Jan 2001 13:06:04 -0500

Ex Domo Lucius Equitius Quiritibus SPD

In my first act as Censor it gives me great pleasure to announce the inclusion of two new Senatores.

AVE, Praetor Urbanus Caius Flavius Diocletianus !

AVE, Senator Lucius Sergius Australicus !

May the Gods bless them with health and wisdom. Bene omnibus nobis!

Valete, Censor Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus

NB To view the updated Senate http://www.novaroma.org/bin/view/senators


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Subject:	[novaroma] ATTN: Edictum Praetoricium about the Appointment of a Scriba
From:	Caius Flavius Diocletianus <3s@-------->
Date:	Mon, 01 Jan 2001 19:06:37 +0100

Caius Flavius Diocletianus Quiritibus S.P.D.

Ex Officio Praetoris Iunioris

I. This Edictum is enacted upon section IV.A.3.e of the Constitution of
Nova Roma. According to this section, a Praetor has the authority to
appoint Scribae he see fit for administrative or other tasks.

II. Senator Marcus Marcius Rex is hereby appointed as Scriba to the
Iunior Praetor. Senator Marcius Rex has sufficient judicial knowledge
and experiences in Nova Roma Law to be a consultant to the Iunior
Praetor.

III. The Scriba´s term of office ends at the latest with the term of
office of the Praetor he is attached to.

January 1st, in the year 2754 AUC, during the Consulship of Flavius
Vedius Germanicus and Marcus Cassius Iulianus.

Caius Flavius Diocletianus
Praetor

Subject:	[novaroma] Oath of Office
From:	"Susan Brett" <trog99@-------->
Date:	Mon, 01 Jan 2001 14:01:56 -0500

Salvete Nova Romani:

I, Pompeia Cornelia Strabo (Susan Brett), do hereby swear to uphold the
honour of Nova Roma and to act always in the bests interests of the People
and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As Propraetrix Canada Orientalis, I, Pompeia Cornelia Strabo, swear to
honour the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings and to pursue
the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Pompeia Cornelia Strabo, swear to uphold and defend the Religio Romana as
the State Religion of Nova Roma, and swear never to act in a way that would
threaten its status as the State Religion.

I Pompeia Cornelia Strabo, swear to protect and defend the Constitution of
Nova Roma.

I, Pompeia Cornelia Strabo, futher swear to fulfill the rights and
responsibilities of the office of Propraetrix Canada Orientalis to the best
of my abilities.

On my honour as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods and
Goddesses of the Roman People, and by their will and favour, do I accept the
position of Propraetrix Canada Orientalis, and all the rights, privileges,
obligations and responsibilities attendant hereto.
******
Mater Cornelia Gracchi, Flora Maxima Roma et Gens Cornelia, Ave!
May I be ever mindful of your lifelong example of Roman Virtue......
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Subject:	[novaroma] the event in Ohio..Registering, etc..
From:	"Aurelius Tiberius" <kminer_rsg@-------->
Date:	Sun, 31 Dec 2000 17:30:46 -0500

Salve all,

If you are interested in attending the event in Ohio Patricia has spoken of
please let me know. I will be scanning the info and posting it in the next
few days (soon as i get to work and fire up the flatbed)

thanks alot

ATR

Aurelius Tiberius Ronanus
Praefectus Legionis & Tribuni Militum Legio VI
General of the Northern Army of the SCA Household of Rome
& Cornicularius,Sodalitas Militarium et Nova Roma

"Nos Sumus Romae milites, parati stamus ad potestatem et gloriam eius. Roma
est Lux."
"we are soldiers of Rome, for her might and glory we stand ready... She is
the Light"


www.geocities.com/legio_vi

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

Subject:	[novaroma] Oaths of Office - a quibble and a question and a wide apology
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Mon, 1 Jan 2001 14:40:23 EST

Salvete Omnes!

Quibble:
I am loathe to disrupt the peace of my new retirement by raising public
issues, BUT knowing how litigious and picky Romans can be, I am concerned
that our incoming magistrates' oaths of office meet the requirements of
the law.

Such oaths are supposed to include BOTH our legal macronational names and
our Roman names (presumeably in order to be binding in both
jurisdictions):

> Lex Iunia de Iusiurando

> I, _enter legal and Roman name here_ .....


I notice that some of you have posted oaths under only your Roman names.
Lest someone in the future question the legitimacy of these, I suggest
you repeat them with both names.

This is, of course, only a quibble by a private citizen and has no
imperium associated therewith. :-)


Question:
My question is this: was the question ever definitively settled whether
Senators are among those required to make an oath?


Wide apology:
In perusing my archives for information on the above matters, I found
myself reading angry, hostile, aggressive posts, public and private, some
of which turned out to have been authored by people for whom I have great
respect and affection, and some of which were directed at those same
people by none other than me! (As in "My God! He said that to me?? And I
said that to him??")

I am struck by how much progress many of us have made over the past year,
in learning to work together without letting our passions and paranoia
and egoistic needs interfere with our duties and our common bonds.

I would hope that our incoming new magistrates will be wiser and more
temperate in their opinions and actions than I, at least, was a year ago.

I stand here and now to apologize to any and all against whom I may have
directed angry, intemperate words in learning to carry out my duties as i
have seen them over the past year. If my words were not directed toward
you but you felt offended by them, then I apologize to you also.

I am thankful we have sparred with words and not with swords!

Valete,

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.
ex-Tribune of Nova Roma


aut amat aut odit mulier: nihil est tertium.

(A woman either loves or hates: there is no third possibility.)

Publilius Syrus

Subject:	Re: [novaroma] Senate results: votes and comments
From:	LSergAust@--------
Date:	Mon, 1 Jan 2001 14:40:21 EST

On 1/1/01 11:21 AM Marcus Octavius Germanicus (hucke@--------) wrote:

>Salve Senator Luci Sergi,
>
>Your post omitted the vote of N Moravius Vado (probably because
>Consul Q Fabius' post did that as well). Could you repost it
>with Senator Vado's vote included?
>
>Vale, Octavius.
>

Salve Praetor Marcus Octavius

Thank you for the salutation, but it's not clear to me that I am a
Senator without action by the Censores, so I will wait until that is done
or clarified for me.

For the moment, I have been relishing being a private civis.

Q. Fabius extended the voting deadline until 7:00 pm PST, but I had
nothing from either Lucius Equitius Cincinnatus or Nicolaus Moravius Vado
by that time, or even by the time I finished the compilation, which was
around 4:30 am CST today. At this time, I still have not seen the posts
containing their votes. Perhaps the Internet is a bit too slow for us?

If the outgoing Consules will certify that these Senatores' votes were
cast prior to the closing of the voting, I will gladly amend my
compilation to include them. I lack the legal authority to do so on my
own. I trust that both of these distinguished gentlemen understand.

I note that Lucius Equitius has already posted to the Senate list an
amended version including his and Vado's votes, but that's all I have to
go on at this point. I am certain that those in authority will clear this
up (as soon as they recover from last night?).

Vale,

L. Sergius Aust. Obst.
ex-Tribune of Nova Roma




certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate non iam adesse.

(You know, Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.)

Subject:	RE: [novaroma] Oath of Office
From:	"Flavius Vedius Germanicus" <germanicus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 1 Jan 2001 14:54:32 -0500

Lucius Sergius raises a good point. Just to make things official...

I, Joseph Bloch / Flavius Vedius Germanicus do hereby solemnly swear to
uphold the honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests of
the people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Joseph Bloch / Flavius Vedius Germanicus
swear to honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to
pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Joseph Bloch / Flavius Vedius Germanicus swear to uphold and defend the
Religio Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in
a way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Joseph Bloch / Flavius Vedius Germanicus swear to protect and defend the
Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Joseph Bloch / Flavius Vedius Germanicus further swear to fulfill the
obligations and responsibilities of the office of Consul to the best of my
abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods and
Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I accept the
position of Consul and all the rights, privileges, obligations, and
responsibilities attendant thereto.

Subject:	[novaroma] Iusiurandum Titi Labieni Fortunati
From:	Fortunatus <labienus@-------->
Date:	Mon, 01 Jan 2001 13:57:05 -0600

T Labienus omnibus salutem plurimam dicit

I, Titus Labienus Fortunatus, do hereby solemnly swear to uphold the
honor of Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests of the
people and the Senate of Nova Roma.

As a magistrate of Nova Roma, I, Titus Labienus Fortunatus, swear to
honor the Gods and Goddesses of Rome in my public dealings, and to
pursue the Roman Virtues in my public and private life.

I, Titus Labienus Fortunatus, swear to uphold and defend the Religio
Romana as the State Religion of Nova Roma and swear never to act in a
way that would threaten its status as the State Religion.

I, Titus Labienus Fortunatus, swear to protect and defend the
Constitution of Nova Roma.

I, Titus Labienus Fortunatus, further swear to fulfill the obligations
and responsibilities of the office of Tribunus Plebis to the best of my
abilities.

On my honor as a Citizen of Nova Roma, and in the presence of the Gods
and Goddesses of the Roman people and by their will and favor, do I
accept the position of Tribunus Plebis and all the rights, privileges,
obligations, and responsibilities attendant thereto.

I swear this before the patron deities of my gens, and I pray to them to
aid the Respublica in the year to come. I ask Discordia to sponsor
competition in order to air our differences and better us, but to spare
us the full weight of her attention. I ask Fides to remind me at all
times of the oath I have sworn, and to encourage good faith and fair
dealing between all of our magistrates. Finally, I ask Fortuna to smile
upon my tenure and to bestow Her gifts upon the cives of Nova Roma.

Valete

Subject:	[novaroma] Oath of Office (2nd)
From:	"JusticeCMO" <justicecmo@-------->
Date:	Mon, 1 Jan 2001 15:01:53 -0500

I, Priscilla Vedia Serena, do hereby solemnly swear to uphold the honor of
Nova Roma, and to act always in the best interests of the people and the
Senate of Nova Roma.
**Given notice that both legal and Roman names are req