| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Digest Number 916 |
| From: |
"LegionXXIV" <legionXXIV@--------> |
| Date: |
Fri, 30 Jun 2000 19:24:14 -0400 |
|
Gallio Marsallas of Legion XXIV here
Check out "lamps in Antiquity" at
http://members.tripod.com/~oil_lamps/
They and many other suppliers are listed on the
"Supplier Links" page of our website.
http://www.legionxxiv.org/supplierlinks/
Valete
Gallio
Message: 17
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 16:11:08 -0700
From: "L. Cornelius Sulla" <alexious@-------->
Subject: Re: Roman Lamps
Salve Tink!
Check out Ebay.....they have some I dont know just how historically
accurate. Or you might want to contact Cassius, he deals with
antiquities....he might be able to give you some ideas.
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
----- Original Message -----
From: "Aeternia Draconia" <fionaerin@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2000 3:36 PM
Subject: [novaroma] Roman Lamps
> Salvete Omnes!
>
> I was wondering if anyone could tell where would be the best place to
> look for purchasing a Roman Lamp? I've been meaning to get one and
> hadn't had a clue to look for one. Thanks.
>
>
> Valete Aeternia Draconia
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] Edictum de Nominibus Mutatandis Explicatum |
| From: |
"M. Apollonius Formosanus" <bvm3@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 01 Jul 2000 04:48:41 +0200 |
|
M. Apollonius Formosanus C. Mario Merullo Censori N.R.
S.P.D.
Thank you, Merullus, for your long and considered reply
to my comments on the name-change edict. By reading your
explanations it was possible to see *why* you did various
things, and that makes it easier to understand and
appreciate them. (Which is one reason why knowing what our
senators are saying in debates would help cives appreciate
the reasons for senatusconsulta being the way they are - a
point in my mind in advocating transparency and openness in
decision-making.)
I was under the impression that Sulla had done a very
thorough job already of specifying and insisting upon
well-formed Roman names (which I very strongly approve of!).
If, however, it was necessary to do so again and more
systematically, all in one clear edictum, well and good. In
that case this legislation fulfills a need. And I have
already praised its protection of individual sexual/gender
non-discrimination and the regulation of honorific agnomina.
Its right of appeal is also praiseworthy.
I apologise if I seemed to damn your hard work with
faint praise. I suppose that if I were not still reacting to
the old edictum, I might not have especially noticed some
points which now bother me a bit, but I was sensitised.
Still, there is the additional point that I am a very firm
believer in the principle that "That government is best
which governs least", and in some situations I would go on
with Thoreau to say "that government is best which governs
not at all".
You write:
Let us suppose, however, that I became a different person
tomorrow, not a transsexual but someone who wished to make
light of Nova Roma by
playing games with her magistrates. I could submit a request
to change my name to Caia Maria Merulla, claiming that I
considered myself a woman. Should my request be
rubber-stamped with approval, without even so much as posing
the question "Have you pursued changing recognition of your
sex with other authorities, such as a state department of
safety/motor vehicles"? Noone would know whether I were
being honest or dishonest, would they?
RESPONDEO: Why *not* rubber stamp it? I do not approve of
playing games with our magistrates, of course. If a brief
statement of reason for a sex change were required, just to
be sure that some one were not making a mistake with the
gender of the name, it would surely be reasonable. But if
you said to the Censor that you wanted to be "Gaia Maria
Merulla" because you had come to realise that your true
identity was female, although it is *possible* that you are
lying, it is *reasonably* close to certain that you would
not be. And if you were lying, and went through the rest of
your life in NR as a woman because of your prank, when in
fact you really felt yourself a man and so projected your
identity elsewhere, *what real harm would Nova Roma take
from that?* I think you would suffer more for your folly
than the Respublica!
But if you were not playing a prank, the change of
identity and coming out in the new identity would be touchy
and uncertain matters in your life, and you would not want
others poking at them, questioning them and demanding that
you *prove* things.
You continue:
But, authorities of some macronations require copies of
airline tickets departing from their territory for issuance
of temporary or transit visas. One could infer from this,
perhaps, that the governments of these macronations were
xenophobic and presumed everyone from certain other
macronations to be dishonest, but that's a useless inference
in my view, especially if you want to go there and interact
with the people.
RESPONDEO: Having lived most of my adult life outside my
country of origin (the U.S.), I have experienced the
nuisance value (and worse) of the thinking behind such
proofs. And I have suffered with numerous friends who wanted
to get a U.S. visa and couldn't, even when I knew in fact
they just wanted to visit - but they couldn't *prove* it!
Yes, it IS xenophobia - the desire that people not come into
one's country, settle down, engage in productive work, raise
children and have a normal life among the inhabitants of a
second country. I am beginning to feel that if we want to
have free trade and free flow of capital, we must have free
flow of work forces too. (Not necessarily instantly, but it
must be in the cards.) Freedom of abode is enjoyed within
the U.S. and within the European Union, and that is to me a
deeply humanistic principle reflecting the universalisation
of civil life in the modern world. Or, I daresay, in the
Roman Empire in its heyday, before Diocletian undertook his
draconian socio-economic measures, which worked for a while
to save a sick empire, but at a terrible human cost in
freedom.
You wrote:
..., as you know, an applicant is younger than the age of
independence in his/her country of macronational
citizenship, in which case we have for some time required
documentation of parental/guardian consent.
RESPONDEO: Would you be willing to swear that among our
citizenry there might not be one or more underage cives, who
simply lied about their birth dates, having been miffed by
the age/proof requirement? I would be surprised if there
weren't...
You continue:
Furthermore, the explicit consent of matres et
patresfamiliae is required for applicants to join gentes --
we do not take the applicant's word on this. It's not a
matter of suspecting dishonesty, but by requiring the
explicit one nearly wholly removes the possibility of it.
And requiring documention isn't absent from Old Rome either
-- take the documents signed by witnesses to sacrifice under
Diocletianus (and introduced by his predecessor, I think,
whose name escapes me) to prove that citizens had
sacrificed. Not the happiest example but quite Roman. I
don't think that requiring documentation is an unreasonable,
or un-Roman, thing.
RESPONDEO: No, not the happiest example. Maybe most such
examples of suspicion and control in any culture ancient or
modern would be unhappy ones. But have you any idea how easy
it is to forge documents, official seals, etc. with a
computer, decent printer, and graphics programme?
You go on:
What you're saying makes sense to me, but I have a couple
of things to
point out here:
i It will be patres et matres, not censores, who apply
most of the
provisions of this edictum (except recording agnomina of
distinction --
we presume that patres et matres will not object to their
gentiles receiving distinction -- and appeals). A senator
pointed out recently that Nova Roma was heavily centralized,
and there has been much criticism of Nova Roma in this forum
for lack of citizen involvement and empowerment. This
edictum, however, empowers patres et matres and does not add
a new burden to the office of censor -- unlike seemingly
almost every other lex and edictum that we have.
RESPONDEO: I think that you are quite right to pat yourself
on the back here in terms of your intent. However, doesn't
any name change still have to be approved by the Censors?
Some undesirable changes of name might be filtered out by
the patres/matres, but it may be that they will consult the
Censors in the matter rather often, messages going back and
forth, so the total citizen man hours will probably increase
absolutely for any given name-change proposal.
You write:
ii I think that there is an advantage to Nova Roma in
this edictum --
uniform, explicit rights and procedures. These are good
defense against
uncertainty, conflict and injury.
RESPONDEO: This is a fair point. There is such a thing as
procedural justice as well as substantive justice. It is
highly desirable to have both. And in fact I have no quarrel
at all with this aspect of the edictum, which is quite good.
You wrote (quoting me):
>After all, if someone asks to change the gender of a name
he/she >already has in NR, it is not likely that this will
be for a frivolous >reason.
I suspect that you may be right, but surely you agree that
this statement is
pretty open and of limited, if any, utility in considering
future name
changes. How will you know?
REPOSNDEO: I simply do not believe that the price of
increasing certainty is worth the labour, attention and
emotional wear and tear for everyone involved. If someone
lies, where is the *concrete harm to Nova Roma* that could
be weighed against the real cost in hassle, manpower, and
bureaucracy to reduce the probability of its happening?
You wrote (quoting me):
>This having been said, it is a true improvement on the
>original. IF it meets the needs of the civis sometime known
>as Fimbria, the person most obviously hurt and discouraged
I shall not discuss Fimbria in relation to this edictum
until/unless my
gensmate chooses to do so. I can only say that I do not aim
to make law
(edicta being the smallest form of law) for or against
individuals. The
experiences of individuals show the necessity for law, but
the resultant
law should in my view govern the treatment of future cases
in general, not achieve a desired result for (that would be
corrupt) or against (intolerably corrupt) a certain
individual.
RESPONDEO: This is well said. However, I cannot in this case
point to a numerous class of persons as the disadvantaged,
since we are a small nation. The whole class is an
individual. There is no Nova Roma Transgendered Cives'
Association, whose president could speak for them as a
disadvantaged *group* - which would surely be politically
acceptable. Therefore, as much as the Law might normally be
properly directed only at general classes of persons rather
than individuals, I think that this is an exception for
obvious reasons. Law does not exist in a vacuum so refined
and abstract that its framers can ignore its political and
moral implications. A person injured by the previous edictum
has a reasonable expectation that this new edictum
purporting to have refined out any old inequities will not
still perpetuate them. I do not know the opinion of your
gens-member yet, but as a person who tends to identify with
trodden-upon underdogs, I would be greatly relieved at heart
to know that the aggrieved was content, and greatly troubled
if not. Not being transgendered myself, I would like to
listen to the viewpoint and feelings of the person/s truly
affected.
You write (quoting me):
> I do regret
>that it does not look like it will be brought to a popular
>vote, however, which is the only really satisfactory
>legislative procedure for an issue that is so fundamental
to
>our senses of personal identity and simple fairness.
It is too early to come to that conclusion. I intend to
bring several
edicta to the magistrates who convene the assemblies in
December, so
that they can be voted on and made into leges. This one may
be one of them, depending on the priorities agreed by my
colleague and me in concert, and the number of other
proposed laws -- I have no intention of
monopolizing the voting agenda with the censorial program.
RESPONDEO: Considering that this edictum in its original
form occasioned the widest, most prolonged, and most
profoundly-argued and impassioned citizen response of any
legislative issue in the first half of this year, it would
seem to me natural for it to be included. Also for the fact
that treatment of sexual (and other) minorities in any State
is a fundamental matter of justice, and therefore a matter
of conscience for many of us. (Which is why I felt myself
compelled to speak out on this in the first place.)
Again I thank you for your explanation, and certainly should
thank both you and Sulla for the definitive regularisation
of our naming procedures; having Roman names of standard
form will surely enhance the crdibility of Nova Roma in
future years.
Valete!
----------------------------------------------
Marcus Apollonius Formosanus,
Paterfamilias Gentis Apolloniae,
Triumvir Condens Sodalitatis Latinitatis Futurae
Civis Novae Romae in Silesia, Polonia
ICQ# 61698049
________________________________________________________
Si vis omnia tibi subicere, te subice Rationi. (Seneca)
[Se vi deziras subigi chion al vi, subigu vin al Racio.]
________________________________________________________
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Results of Senate voting |
| From: |
LSergAust@-------- |
| Date: |
Fri, 30 Jun 2000 23:04:49 EDT |
|
Salvete omnes
In reporting the outcome of the current session of voting, I can do no
better than to quote from the annoucement that Consul Audens has made to
the Senate.
With 13 Senators Voting the results of the latest Senate Vote are as
follows:
I.--To authorize the replacement of the Album Civium, Album Gentium,
Album Sentorium and citizenship application papers:
Yes-12; No-0; Abstain-1----The Item Passes;
II.--To move the entire www.novaroma.org site to the server hosted by M.
Octavious Germanicus:
Yes-13; No-0; Abstain-0----The Item Passes;
III.--Expansion of the Military Sodalitas:
Yes-11; No-0; Abstain-2----The Item Passes;
IV.--Approval of the Proposed Sodalitas Latinitatnus:
Yes-13; No-0; Abstain-0----The Item Passes;
V.--Approval of Proposed Website Application Protocol:
Yes-2, No-11; Abstain-0----The Item Fails;
VI.--Confirm the appointment of Lucius Cornelius Sulla as ProConsul for
the Province of California / Nevada:
Yes-11, No-1; Abstain-1----The Item Passes;
VII.--Approve a"--Measure Of Approval--" for Praetor Vado of Britannia
and his Provincial Report:
Yes-4; No-9; Abstain-0----The Item Fails;
VIII.--Approve the Proposed Procedure for Senators and Magistrates to
recover reimbursements from the NR Treasury:
Yes-11; No-1; Abstain-1----The Item Passes;
IX.--Approval of the application for sponsorship from the VIth Legio
(Albany, NY);
Yes-10; No-2; Abstain-1----The Item Passes;
X.--Approval of a declaration of current non-alliance / association with
any other micronation;
Yes-9; No-4; Abstain-0----The Item Passes.
Valete,
Lucius Sergius Australicus Obstinatus
Tribunus Plebis
sic friatur crustum dulce.
(Thus the cookie crumbles.)
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Roman Lamps |
| From: |
LSergAust@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 1 Jul 2000 00:50:39 EDT |
|
Salve,
If I may join in, I might add that a while back I bought a small Roman
lamp from Judea on eBay and burned olive oil in it. As Cassius says, it
proved very messy when the oil gradually seeped through the clay. It was
badly battered, so I didn't feel I was damaging a collector's piece, and
it was touching to think that that little lamp had not given light for
nearly 2000 years. However I would like to have a modern one that could
be used without profusely oiling every surface it rests on.
Vale,
L. Sergius Aust. Obst.
On 6/30/00 5:23 PM cassius622@-------- (cassius622@--------) wrote:
>In a message dated 6/30/00 2:54:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
>fionaerin@-------- writes:
>
><<
> I didn't know there was a difference, I'm looking for both now.
>
> >>
>
>Salve,
>
>There are a couple of companies that do reproduction lamps... these are
>modern replicas which can be used for lighting at those posh Roman banquets
>you're probably planning to throw! ;) I'll see if I can find some info for
>you. Reproduction lamps generally sell for about $10.00
>
>I deal in ancient artifacts and do have some authentic ancient ancient Roman
>lamps. These technically could still be used, but since Roman lamps aren't
>glazed the oil seeps through them and you wouldn't be doing them any favors.
>Better to have the modern ones for use and an ancient one for display. I
>have
>ancient lamps for $45.00 each, which come with a Certificate of
>Authenticity.
>I'll be happy to answer any questions you have by off-list Email.
>
>Vale,
>
>Marcus Cassius Julianus
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Ave Proconsul Provincia California et Nevada!! |
| From: |
"Pompeia Cornelia Strabo" <trog99@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 01 Jul 2000 05:24:22 GMT |
|
Salvete Omnes:
I would like to extend my congratulations to my Pater, Lucius Cornelius
Sulla Felix on his Senatorial appointment as Proconsul Provincia California
et Nevada.
Pater Sulla is very "goal-oriented" and approachable in the gens Cornelia
, which suggests to me that he will extend the same type of personal and
positive leadership as governor of a very busy provincia, memberwise.
Ave Pater!
Buona Fortuna Perpetua
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Website is ok again |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" <amg@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 1 Jul 2000 11:29:40 +0100 |
|
Salvete
I inform you that I can now make uploadings to the website and that the
macellum and the priesthoods page are now working normally.
Valete
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Curator Araneae
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Ave Proconsul Provincia California et Nevada!! |
| From: |
Caius Flavius Diocletianus <3s@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 01 Jul 2000 14:14:58 +0200 |
|
Salvete, Qirites.
My congratulations, Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix.
May the gods bless you.
Valete
Caius Flavius Diocletianus
Legatus Germaniae
Pompeia Cornelia Strabo schrieb:
> Salvete Omnes:
>
> I would like to extend my congratulations to my Pater, Lucius Cornelius
> Sulla Felix on his Senatorial appointment as Proconsul Provincia California
> et Nevada.
>
> Pater Sulla is very "goal-oriented" and approachable in the gens Cornelia
> , which suggests to me that he will extend the same type of personal and
> positive leadership as governor of a very busy provincia, memberwise.
>
> Ave Pater!
> Buona Fortuna Perpetua
> Pompeia Cornelia Strabo
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Roman Lamps |
| From: |
cassius622@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 1 Jul 2000 08:40:19 EDT |
|
In a message dated 6/30/00 9:51:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
LSergAust@-------- writes:
<< If I may join in, I might add that a while back I bought a small Roman
lamp from Judea on eBay and burned olive oil in it. As Cassius says, it
proved very messy when the oil gradually seeped through the clay. It was
badly battered, so I didn't feel I was damaging a collector's piece, and
it was touching to think that that little lamp had not given light for
nearly 2000 years. However I would like to have a modern one that could
be used without profusely oiling every surface it rests on.
>>
Salve,
I hate to say it, but the reproduction lamps are made fairly faithfully to
the originals. They're not glazed either! Oil will seep through them and make
a mess. In the ancient world people would use such lamps until they got too
disgusting to keep around the house... then they'd toss them and spend the
copper or two to get a new one. When archaeologists excavate ancient trash
heaps it's not uncommon to find thousands of spent lamps! This is why they're
available to collectors. They're all identical and the museums, universities,
etc. have and can get access to all they want.
In the ancient world, the solution for these lamps was to put them in a
shallow dish, much like a saucer. That way when they eventually puddle oil
you don't ruin everything in your house. (Note, it takes some time for lamps
to get really messy... they're more efficient than all this is sounding!)
Vale,
Marcus Cassius Julianus
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Website is ok again |
| From: |
cassius622@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 1 Jul 2000 08:44:11 EDT |
|
In a message dated 7/1/00 3:31:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time, amg@--------
writes:
<< I inform you that I can now make uploadings to the website and that the
macellum and the priesthoods page are now working normally.
>>
Many thanks, Graecus. I don't know how you manage everything, and I'm
certainly impressed! :)
Vale,
Cassius
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Website is ok again |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" <amg@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 1 Jul 2000 14:53:45 +0100 |
|
Salve Cassi
>Many thanks, Graecus. I don't know how you manage everything, and I'm
>certainly impressed! :)
Honesty obligues me to say that the site just started working again alone
=). All I had to do was to wait some hours.
Vale
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Curator Araneae
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Bookstore is down |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" <amg@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 1 Jul 2000 14:59:26 +0100 |
|
Salvete
I was partially wrong. While the Priesthoods page are now correctly updated,
the Bookstore is still unable to upload.
Valete
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Curator Araneae
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Results of Last Senate Vote |
| From: |
jmath669642reng@-------- |
| Date: |
Sat, 1 Jul 2000 10:05:40 -0400 (EDT) |
|
Salvete, Senate Fathers and Citizens;
In the report to the Senate and the Citizens in regard to Item Number
VII, I inadvertantly exchanged the word "Approval" for the word
"Appreciation." That was an error.
I thank Senator Iulianus for his pointing out that fact, and my thanks
also to Senator Sulla for determining that the announcement was badly
handled. My sincere thanks to both gentlemen of the Senate.
It was not the Senate's intention (I am informed) to disapprove of
Praetor Vado's work (as several have said they have already notified him
personnally) however the term "Appreciation" was considered too strong a
term to be awarded by the Senate.
My apologies to all for the poor handling of this announcement.
Valete, Very Respectfully;
Marcus Audens
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
http://community.webtv.net/jmath669642reng/NovaRomaMilitary
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] ATTN (Religio Romana): Kalendae Quinctiliae (July 1st) |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" <amg@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 1 Jul 2000 15:43:17 +0100 |
|
Salvete omnes
Tomorrow I will not be here and as such, I am posting today the religious
note for the Kalendae Quinctiliae.
****************************************************************************
********
This is one of the dies nefasti (N), a day on which no legal action or
public voting can take place.
The month of Quinctilis was renamed Iulius in honour of the deified Iulius
Caesar. This month is sacred to Iuppiter.
This is the day of the Kalendae Quinctiliae. Today the Pontifices announce
the Nonas from the Curia Calabra, after performing a sacrifice to Iuno,
where Ianus is also
invoked. The Regina Sacrorum also sacrifices to Iuno at the Regia.
Today, capite velato, I have invoked Iuno Covella on the 7th day by
saying the traditional formula:
"Die Septimi te kalo Iuno Covella"
This day is also sacred to Felicitas of the Capitoline Hill. Iuno and
Felicitas are associated, being celebrated in the feast of Iuno Felicitata.
Pax Deorum vobiscum
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Response on the NR Republic |
| From: |
"Jeroen Meuleman" <hendrik.meuleman@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 1 Jul 2000 11:06:50 +0200 |
|
Sextus Apollonius Draco Marco Cassio Iuliano S.P.D.
*important note*: sorry that I am always late with my replies, or that
sometimes I may say things that already have been said, but I get this in
digest form to please bear with me.
--
Right, I agree on the fact that the Senate is a balance between a democracy
(or demagoguery) and absolute rulership, and that NR isn't to be
drastically changed, it is indeed called Roma for a reason (but also Nova
for a reason!). I agreed with most of the things you said, but I did not
mean to imply that older people are to be replaced. I also have something
against the dictatorship of youth, and I am very well aware of the fact
that older people possess a lot of experience and maturity, but you can't
deny that some older people eventually go downhill, or after a while become
dogmatic and stop accepting changes. That is why I find lifelong membership
of the Senate dangerous. It is true that people with a certain age act and
think from their rich experience (and perhaps wisdom), but a younger person
may be more daring and come up with new and refreshing ideas the others did
not see, *exactly* because of that rich and full life they led, which
inevitably brought a certain amount of prejudice.
Also, I didn't suggets that NR should be a constant changing body.
Stability is good, but stability *may* someday lead to stagnation, which is
undeniably bad, and kills any nation. Again balance is the keyword. Not a
constant change, but rather a well-considered flexibility with room for
change.
Habete diem iucundum;
S. Apollonius Draco
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] On Vacation |
| From: |
Caius Flavius Diocletianus <3s@--------> |
| Date: |
Sat, 01 Jul 2000 22:52:10 +0200 |
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Salvete, Quirites.
I know, it´s unusual, but want to announce, that I´m on summer vacation
from tomorrow, 2nd July up to the 21th July. I´m sorry, but in this time
I have no internet connection, so I´m unreachable.
This message is intended especially for the citizens, I had corresponded
with during the last days about some important topics.
Best wishes to all citizens. May the gods bless you all.
Until my return...
Valete
Caius Flavius Diocletianus
Legatus Germaniae
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