| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Cleopatra |
| From: |
"StormWolf" <blakmice@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 28 May 2000 20:15:57 -0000 |
|
>I think you missed the worst part of "Cleopatra" -- the ludicrousness of
>casting a pouty 1990's teeny-bopper to play the part of a queen who for
>decades influenced the decisions and destinies of great statesmen,
>generals, and nations, through her personal charms and her keen,
>aggressive statecraft. Rather like casting Woody Allen as Caesar.
My Latin teacher said that Cleopatra was not really that beautiful... almost
ugly and that it was her sharp wit and intellect that kept her in power and
such prominense. I dunno... I've never seen the coin in question... My latin
teacher refered to her as a battle axe though... mind you my teacher wasn't
exactly pretty herself!
L. Vatinius
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Theological View; |
| From: |
"StormWolf" <blakmice@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 28 May 2000 20:22:45 -0000 |
|
>I have never understood that, and in my very brief
>delving into Bhuddism, Islam, Catholicism, Christain Science, and
>Seventh Day Adventist, in each I found good, sincere loving people, who
>were willing to help, and were good friends, but were adamant about
>"thier" religion and it's accendance over all the rest.
>Vale, Respectfully;
>Marcus Audens
The way I look at it, you HAVE to believe that the way YOU are doing it is
IT... THE way... BUT... you have to be willing and able to accept that only
applies to you and you alone. I have issues with Buddhism, Islam,
Christianity, Atheism, Ba'hai, and even Asatruar and Grecian or Roman um...
well I don't know what they'd be called but you know what I mean. Wicca is
my thing. I understand and know it's history. It's not a blind faith thing
for me. I believe in the Roman Gods and Goddesses, though in a slightly
different fashion. And I expect NO ONE but myself to think that way or look
at it that way. But this is THE ONLY way for me... End of story. Better than
the rest. The problem simply arises when people project. *shrugs* It's
always been a problem and always will be.
L. Vatinius
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Draco's Pizza & Peasoup Emporium |
| From: |
"StormWolf" <blakmice@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 28 May 2000 20:23:14 -0000 |
|
>I regret to inform the Senate and People of Rome that I do NOT deliver
pizza
>to Canada. Or Texas. Ever.
And what's wrong with Texas? =P
L. Vatinius
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Draco's Pizza & Peasoup Emporium |
| From: |
"StormWolf" <blakmice@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 28 May 2000 20:24:41 -0000 |
|
>Texas is definitely starving, especially my little 10' by 15' portion
>of it...and, you know, I'm beginning to suspect a Conspiracy! NObody
>will deliver pizza to my trailer: I'm either too far south for South
>Dallas, too far east for Oak Cliff, too far west for East Oak Cliff, or
>too far north for Duncanville... Sigh. "Domino's--Delivering 15
>Million Smiles a Day"--and not one of 'em is mine!! >({|8-}
>
>Draco: *prettyprettyplease*.............? [big brown puppy-dog eyes]
>
> -- Marius Fimbria
Move down here to Austin then!!
L. Vatinius
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] NR Files at e-groups |
| From: |
jmath669642reng@-------- |
| Date: |
Sun, 28 May 2000 21:52:16 -0400 (EDT) |
|
Salve, Venator;
How do you place files into the NR Files at Egroups?? Do you have to
have a access to the website?? How do you view these files??
Vale, Respectfully;
Marcus Audens
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: NR Files at e-groups |
| From: |
"Piparskegg - Venator" <amgunn@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 May 2000 03:03:47 -0000 |
|
Ave Marcus Minucius Audens, Consul et Amicus,
Venator scripsit,
--- In novaroma@--------, jmath669642reng@w... wrote:
> Salve, Venator;
>
> How do you place files into the NR Files at Egroups?? Do you have
to
> have a access to the website?? How do you view these files??
>
> Vale, Respectfully;
> Marcus Audens
>
> Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
As a subscriber to an Egroups (was, and is, one-list) mailing list,
you have access to a file area which the members of the list can put
information into the public forum.
Just go to http://onelist.com/mygroups
This will take you to a subscriber's personal e-list homepage. Just
follow the point and click menu items from there. For uploading a
file to the common area, just open a folder which is relevant, go to
the upload file item, browse the hard drive of your computer for the
file and hit upload. To read a file, go to the appropriate folder
and click on the highlighted file name.
These folders are a neat idea for big text files and pictures which
one would like to share
Good hunting!
In Officium - Venii
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] NR Files at e-groups |
| From: |
Lucius Cornelius Sulla <alexious@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 28 May 2000 20:06:01 -0700 |
|
Consul
Anyone can put files up there. Just go to www.egroups.com, sign in....click
on myGroups and then click on Nova Roma. Then on the left side...there is a
section that you can click on called Files. Click on that...and it will
take you to the different directories. From there you can view or upload
files. Currently I have 5 Files up there. Hope that helps.
Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix
*Computer Technican at work*
jmath669642reng@-------- wrote:
> Salve, Venator;
>
> How do you place files into the NR Files at Egroups?? Do you have to
> have a access to the website?? How do you view these files??
>
> Vale, Respectfully;
> Marcus Audens
>
> Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Missing old school friends? Find them here:
> http://click.egroups.com/1/4055/6/_/61050/_/959565147/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Draco's Pizza & Peasoup Emporium |
| From: |
"Decius Aucelius Sebastianus" <Decius@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 May 2000 03:52:55 -0500 |
|
L. Vatinius,
Salve from New Braunfels
----- Original Message -----
From: StormWolf <blakmice@-------->
To: <novaroma@-------->
Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2000 3:24 PM
Subject: Re: [novaroma] Re: Draco's Pizza & Peasoup Emporium
: >Texas is definitely starving, especially my little 10' by 15' portion
: >of it...and, you know, I'm beginning to suspect a Conspiracy! NObody
: >will deliver pizza to my trailer: I'm either too far south for South
: >Dallas, too far east for Oak Cliff, too far west for East Oak Cliff, or
: >too far north for Duncanville... Sigh. "Domino's--Delivering 15
: >Million Smiles a Day"--and not one of 'em is mine!! >({|8-}
: >
: >Draco: *prettyprettyplease*.............? [big brown puppy-dog eyes]
: >
: > -- Marius Fimbria
:
:
: Move down here to Austin then!!
:
: L. Vatinius
:
:
: ------------------------------------------------------------------------
: Failed tests, classes skipped, forgotten locker combinations.
: Remember the good 'ol days
: http://click.egroups.com/1/4053/6/_/61050/_/959563879/
: ------------------------------------------------------------------------
:
:
:
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Introduction to the Religio Romana |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" <amg@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 May 2000 10:25:48 +0100 |
|
Salvete
>This is a horridly inaccurate website, beginning with its presumption
>that anything in the myths of the Imperial Age should reveal anything
>on the origins of Rome or of the religio romana. The basic concepts
>of the religio romana are formed from those Italic tribes, the
>Pallantine Latins and Quirillian Sabines, that later joined to form
>the city.
Well, I don't agree with "horribly inacurate".
As to the myths of the Imperial Age, I will say the following. In Nova Roma
we are trying to restore the Religio Romana. The Religio Romana is better
characterised, not by what we think of it today, but by what the ancients
thought of it. I pass to explain. I like very much to know the true origins
of things and to reasearch history to the last clue. Nevertheless, there are
no absolute certainties for influence phenomena. For example, you cannot
tell whether the number 12 of the Dii Consentes come from the Greeks or from
the Etruscans. Maybe the Etruscan number 12 and the Greek number 12 were the
same, who knows? Maybe the Greeks had already influenced the Etruscans...
Who can be sure of the contrary? And this is just an example.
I don't believe everything that site says regarding history and evolution,
no. I've already read much better. But I think that if you confine your
analysis to the facts about the practices of the Religio, then you'll find
the site quite good for it provides a good "feeling" about the thing. I
often use the calendar of festivals as a comparative resource, and I can say
it is sometimes more accurate than Robert Turcan's "Rome et ses dieux".
And frankly, I don't know of any better site on the Internet.
> Much is said about Etruscan "influence" and too much
>emphasis is placed on Greek "influence" in the forming of a "Graeco-
>Ionic" mythos for Rome.
Wasn't that the thought of Virgil and other Romans? Isn't it also part of
the Religio of the late Republic and Imperial periods?
>But if any of that were true at the
>beginning of Rome and its ante-AUC institutions it would still imply
>an underlying religio viteliana more Sabine than Etruscan.
As I've said, these things are complex. Except for a few local cults, we
cannot usually state with 100% certainty that a certain aspect is due
exclusively to a specific influence. Life is a complex phenomenon.
Valete
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Introduction to the Religio Romana |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" <amg@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 May 2000 11:05:56 +0100 |
|
Salve Piscine
> Admittedly the focal point of my interest lies with the beginning of
>Rome. I am more interested in the Italian Neolithic and Bronze Age than I
am
>in Imperial Rome. I find the founding of Rome more as the end point of my
>inquiries rather than as its beginning. That certainly colours my opinion
of
>the website. I am therefor, also, more interested in what the author had
to
>say on the fundamental aspects and core beliefs than on the cultus
practice.
>If I am to revisit this subject on specifics it will be in that area.
Oh, this explains many things! =)
>The
>comments on the website about human sacrifice should be revisited, and his
>definition of the indigetes I would take exception to, as two examples. I
>would invite you to more directly correspond with me on such matters,
rather
>than to use the messageboard.
Yes, the definition of Dii Indigetes is very simplistic.
>What intrigued me most about NR, that made me decide to apply
>for citizenship, is the repeated statements on a commitment to research for
>authenticity in the area of the religio romana. Simply put, I did not find
>that here in the recommendation to visit this particular site.
Dear Piscine, many people here have not your background on the Religio
Romana. I cannot simply tell them: Go and buy John Scheid, Robert Turcan,
Fascianno. For a beginner, for someone who thinks that Roman and Greek are
exactly the same thing, that site does a good job. Then, if the guy gets
more ambitious he will have already a background enough to understand the
rest of the story that comes in the right books. That was my objective.
Vale
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Neapolitanism and Culinary Correctness (Was Re: Theological Correctness) |
| From: |
"Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@--------> |
| Date: |
Sun, 28 May 2000 19:03:03 +0100 |
|
Etiam salutem!
Sic iterum Piscinus:
>the gods and goddesses were a bit ambivelent about their sexual
>identity. But that too is a later development that grows alongside
>developments in Neoplatonism, especially to their psychology. To me that
is
>only a different subject, one of particular interest to me and that I would
>enjoy taking up at another time. To me the religio romana refers to what
was
>specificly roman without Greek influence.
Aletheia Moravia, looking up from her spinning to read over my shoulder,
read that as
'Neapolitanism' - but then, it's all Greek to her :-) (OWW! Careful with
that distaff, Uxor!)
> Marana???? By that I mean marinara, spaghetti sauce. To her, to use
oregano,
> as opposed to basil, meant Calabria, and northern Italians used marjoram
and
> Sicilians used mint... And I have no idea if any of this really reflected
> what it was like in her day or is presently like in Italy.
Perhaps I can help here: a few years ago I was working in Genua, in a
caupona by the docks. It has a very mixed clientele. One quiet afternoon,
one of the regulars (a native, blone Ligurian called Giorgio, said (noting
with approval that I ate my spaghetti like a good Northerner) (how else, the
cook was Piedmontese and I'm from Lancashire):
"South f rom Napoli, you know, they're not real Italians at all - they're
Arabs."
(For which, alternatively read Numidians, Carthaginians, Greeks - there's
millennia of xenophobia (sorry - timor peregrini - in that remark). I nearly
snorted beer down my shirt front.
At which, from the other end of the bar, another regular, Paolo - a native
Neapolitan and proud of it - scowled, and said something even more
uncomplimentary about the mixed barbarian ancestry of anyone who came from
north of Rome (another timeless remark).
I turned the conversation to the less contentious topic of the merits of
Italian beers, and opened another three bottles.
Bene valete,
Vado.
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Theological Correctness (Was Re: De Opulentia) |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" <amg@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 May 2000 11:41:40 +0100 |
|
Salvete Piscine et al
> While stumbling about on this site I have become confused more than a
few
>times. Are we in Republican times, or do we emulate the Empire, or throw
it
>all to the wind and evolve into a totally new form of Rome. I lean towards
>the latter, but feel you need to have a solid base to begin to evolve from.
>And, too, when getting to specifics I lean towards the earliest precedent
to
>move from.
If you are asking what model we use to organise our religious Collegia, I
would answer Middle-Late Republic, with some Empire flavour on the Foreign
Cults. Why? Because Nova Roma is not an immitation. Nova Roma is what Her
name implies: new Rome, Rome reborn. Behind us are the Monarchy, Republic,
Empire, decadence, end, centuries of History without Rome as a nation. Now
Rome becomes a nation again and History cannot be forgotten.
But Nova Roma is not an invention. But we are hires of the knowledge of our
ancestors. We have inherited their Gods, and strive to honour Them AS CLOSE
AS POSSIBLE FROM THE PRACTICES OF OUR ANCESTORS, and that is the main
support for our claims. We are not an invention, we are Rome after centuries
of evolution. Yes! Rome would certainly have evolved were it not for Her
defeat.
>To me the religio romana refers to what was
>specificly roman without Greek influence. Blame it on my nonna, who
>absolutely refused to put oregano in her marana because she considered it
>Greek. Roman deities, especially in the earliest periods, didn't have any
>sexual identity. They were more as forces of nature.
Exactly. Where is the Greek influence? I say it is on Myth. Now, maybe you
will become surprised but my idea is that Myth does not matter. If two
persons honour Iuppiter with the rites told to us by our ancestors, it does
not matter whether person A thinks Iuppiter is Zeus and person B thinks it
is Baal Shamin. It simply doesn't matter. The only thing that was CONSTANT
throughout Roman history was RITE. Epicureanism, Stoicism, Neopythagorism,
Neoplatonism, all were Philosophies that influenced Roman thought.
Nevertheless in the practices of the Flamines, the Pontifices, the
Quindecemviri, if something changed, it was surely not because of Greek
influence. Even the Ritus Graecus seems to have been more Roman than Greek.
So, I repeat. As a priest I do not care if a person believes that Minerva is
Athena. I don't care if someone thinks that Iuppiter is Zeus. Greek
influence existed and can exist in Nova Roma. I won't move a straw to make
people change their ideas about Myth. I only care if the guy worships
Minerva 'capite velato' following the Ritus Romanus, and if the Goddess is
offered the right things during sacrifice.
I care with Myth and the Nature of the Gods when my subjects are poetry and
philosophy (subjects which I also love), not religion.
Valete
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Imperial cult: How can you find it impure? |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" <amg@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 May 2000 12:06:12 +0100 |
|
Salvete
This is a personal view. The Collegium Pontificum has nothing to do with the
following statement.
I think that someone has raised the issue of the Imperial cult as being the
devotion of some Novi Romani, and then expressed a personal opinion about
its impurety. I'd like to state that I disagree, and that I consider the
Imperial cult to be a mere evolution of TRADITIONAL Roman practices and
beliefs.
To consider the Imperial cult instituted by Emperor Augustus as impure is
the same as considering the family cult as impure. Augustus' Imperial cult
was simply an extension of the family cult, in order to include the
dimension of ALL the Roman nation.
Traditionally, a family would honour the Genius (protector spirit) of the
paterfamilias.
During the reign of Augustus, the Roman people paid homage to the Genius of
the Emperor. Why? Bacause the Emperor was the paterfamilias of ALL Romans.
So, what is the difference? "Ok - you say - but the Imperial cult involved
more than that. It involved the cult of the DECEASED Emperors, the Divi. The
Divi are men"
Yes, you are right. But don't we honour Hercules as well? Wasn't Hercules a
man? Don't we honour Romulus as well assimilating Him to Quirinus? What's
the difference between Julius-Iuppiter and Romulus-Quirinus?
So, the Imperial cult was VERY ROMAN during a big part of its existence. The
first LIVING Emperor to be considered a God (surely under oriental
influence) was Aurelianus in the 2nd half of the IIIrd century AD!!!
Valete
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Theological Correctness (Was Re: De Opulentia) |
| From: |
"Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 May 2000 12:02:46 +0100 |
|
Salve, mi Piscine!
I pass over your culinary aberrations in silence, save to remark that less
than an hour ago Aletheia's and my affection for Big Ted was somewhat
qualified by him nabbing a young black-cap (unusual summer visitor in
Britannia) on what was probably its first flying lesson, then coming back
into the house for something to eat.
> I would not mind venturing a little into comparitive mythology, but if
> our discussion should be about the religio romana itself then I would not
> want to stray too far into such realms. The ideas expressed by G. de
> Santillana and H. von Dechend in "Hamlet Mill" of a worldwide basis for
myth
> in the stars is very compelling. C. Ginzburg's "Ecstasies: deciphering
the
> Witches' Sabbath" that links Alpine traditions of Northern Italy, France
and
> Southern Germany to a trans-Siberian culture, although not directly
related
> to early Roman or Classical myth, may have some bearing on the early
Italic
> tribes as they first enter Italy. Robt. Graves ideas concern too specific
an
> area for discussing comparative mythology as a whole, but would certainly
be
> relevent in any discussion of Greek and Italic myth. I would suggest also
> coupling Graves with the work of M. Gimbutas. (That should stir up a
little
> reaction in some quarters. I view the followers of Gimbutas as those who
> typicly fall into the fallacy of drawing conclusions contrary to the
> evidence. However Gimbutas' work in collecting her data is excellent.)
Erm... right. Can we come back to this in two years or so, when I've read
everything aforementioned, and re-read the Graves?
> (For christist citizens who wish to enter into the fray
> Vado and I are about to undertake, it would be very important that you
read
> this section too, especially as it pertains to 1 Corinth. 15:35-53, and
that
> this passage be understood in its original Greek form rather than in any
> translation.)
We could start here. Give everyone a few days to get the texts to hand?
(Gods! This guy has brought catapultae with him! Form a testudo while
somebody goes to fetch the Liddell & Scott...)
> Having said that I will enjoin you in seperate discussion on a series
of
> topics, there is one matter I wish to address here and now:
> Empirical verification of divine
experiences?????????????????????????????
> Mill is turning in his grave.
Arcum trahe! Sagittam exten - de!!! I would not be at all surprised that
Mill is still in his grave. Our experiences are defined by our perceptions,
which are defined by our beliefs. Our beliefs then define to us what is
possible. The emotional body has its perceptions as well as the mental body
and the 'physical' body (Paul's 'animal' or 'natural' body)(Greek SOMA) .
The trouble with philosophers like Kant and Mill was, IMO, that they based
themselves exclusively in their mental and 'physical' bodies. But give me
some time to chew through the Latin: I'm not a native speaker, y'know.
> Just in the simplest terms, Vado, explain to me how does one come by
> empirical, scientifically measurable physical evidence of a spiritual
> experience?
To try and answer this question (which ought to be banned by the Geneva
Convention), I'll offer this: the next time you meet a numen, have a ruler
handy so you can measure how far the hairs on your arms and neck rise. Then
you can publish a trichometric table of relative numenosity ;-). Put me down
for the first copy. Even then, it will be an effect, not the cause, that is
measured.
You are asking me how many cubic centimetres I love my wife. You are asking
me how it is possible to know anything about epistemology. Get outta here,
and take your oxymoron with you.
(Note to the bewildered: oxymorons are like Carthaginian war-elephants, only
bigger).
More later,
Vado.
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] ATTN (Religio Romana): ante diem VI Kalendas Iunii (May 27th) |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" <amg@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 May 2000 13:25:47 +0100 |
|
Salvete Quirites
Unfortunately I could not make it to post the religious note for May 27th.
But here it is.
****************************************************************************
************************
This is a dies comitiales (C), when committees of citizens can
vote on political or criminal matters.
Today is the first day of the anual feast of Dea Dia. This feast is moveable
and takes place on 17, 19 and 20 May if the year (counting AUC) is even and
27, 29 and 30 May if the year is odd (which is the case for 2000 AD,
corresponding to 2753 AUC).
The Collegium of priests responsible for the feast is that of the Fratres
Arvales (Arval Brothers) whose College, extinct by the late Republic, was
restored by Emperor Augustus. We have quite accurate information about their
liturgy because it is described in detail in the surviving Act of the
college (Acta Fratrum Arvalium).
The feast of Dea Dia is celebrated in the sacred wood of La Magliana (9 km
from Rome following the Via Campana). The feast honours Dea Dia in first
place, but also Mars, the Lares and their mother Mater Larum, the Semones
Who watch the seeds on Earth. The Arval Brothers call all these divine
forces to guarantee the fertility of the fields.
In the first day, in Rome, at the home of the President of the Arval
Brothers, each of the Arval Brothers performs a sacrifice sacrifice to Dea
Dia (the President is the first to offer sacrifice). Firstly, the priest
sacrifices wine and incense to the Goddess. Then, cereals (both green and
dry) and bread with lawrel are touched so that they bacome profane (i.e.
proper for human consumption). The statue of the Goddess is then perfumed.
After midday, after bathing and dressing white clothes, the President
reclines and shares a banquet with the Goddess (this rite is called a
'lectisternium'). A few children, sons and daughters of Senators whose
parents are both alive, also participate on the lectisternium. After the
banquet, the President washes his hands and offers more wine and incense to
Dea Dia. The children, dressing the toga pretexta and helped by public
slaves, take the offerings to the altar of Dea Dia. Crowned with lawrel,
the President eats the dessert.
Pax Deorum vobiscum
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] De Equitatione (Was Re:Gladiator) |
| From: |
"Nick Ford" <gens_moravia@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 May 2000 13:17:09 +0100 |
|
Salvete populari
A question was asked the other day about advice given to a rider in the film 'Gladiator' (which I have still yet to see, BTW) to keep his heels down when in the saddle. An equestrian friend I asked about this last night tells me that:
Keeping your heels down lowers your centre of gravity, makes you more secure and comfortable. This, in turn, makes the horse feel more comfortable. Apart from preventing your feet from slipping through the stirrups, it also gives you more control. A good rider steers the horse with body-weight, controlled by the heels, as much as by the reins: indeed, a good rider should be able to dispense with reins entirely (a fairly obvious requirement for anyone fighting on horseback).
For example, applying pressure with the right heel behind the saddle-girth urges the horse to avoid too close a turn to the right, etc.
All this, I am told, would apply equally if one were riding without stirrups, Roman fashion, although keeping a good seat in a modern saddle is harder than in the high-cantrelled 'bucket seat' of Roman and medieval european type. For further details, I was told to get on a horse and try it :-)
Now a little on the role of cavalry in the Roman army (since no-one else has been forthcoming: I am not an expert on this, or anything else, except maybe getting out of my depth on NR lists): in the Claudian conquest of south-eastern Britannia, Batavian cavalry was used to establish a bridgehead on the north bank of the Tamesis where the Brits. were facing the Roman army from what they must have thought was a good defensive position. They swam the river on horseback, in full armour, and gave the British something to think about on their flanks while the infantry hit them in a frontal assault, meeting a considerably diminished resistance. A tombstone to a Batavian cavalryman, which you can see on the Pannonian provincial website, commemorates a similar feat performed in Traian's Dacian campaign across the Danuvius more than half a century later. So it seems that the Batavi were a specialist force of 'horse-marines', and it makes me wonder generally about the idea of a Roman military doctrine of cavalry as shock troops. Not that meeting a wall of legionaries can't have been a shocking experience...
Note also (whoever asked the question) that Roman cavalry units are called 'alae' ('wings'): a while back, I was looking up the etymology of Mars Alator, and came up with bits of Servius' commentary on Vergil (Aeneid 4.V.121) , and Isidorus (Origines 10, 282) to the effect that Alatores ('wingers') act like beaters in a hunt, making a sort of outflanking pincer movement around the game, then chasing it toward the main body of hunters - in a military context, this main body would be the legionary infantry, waiting to chop up the enemy in the centre, while the cavalry contain them on the 'wings'. Then, presumably, when the enemy breaks and runs, the cavalry gets its fun in fast pursuit, hunting down what's left - something the Roman heavy infantry isn't equipped (or by this stage in a fight, much inclined) to do.
There you are - as I see it, the Eagle's beak and talons are the Legionary cohorts, its wings the cavalry, that lend the Eagle its speed and striking power.
Bene valete,
Vado.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] ATTN (Religio Romana): ante diem VI Kalendas Iunii (May 27th) |
| From: |
Piscinus@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 May 2000 08:48:03 EDT |
|
Salve Pont. A. Gryllus Graecus
The Dea Dia is of special interest to me. The Hymn of the Arval
Brethren, carved in stone, I have found in several sources. But along with
this there is mention of the Arval Brethren's organizational records, also
carved in stone. I have not found any description of what they contain, and
certainly have not found any transcropt of them. Would you have a suggestion
as to where I would find such information?
There is also the question of the relationship of Dea Dia to Bona Dia and
other local Iyalic goddess that has arisen in my correspondance with Vado.
Would you have a comment in that area?
Vale
Gn. Hernicius Piscinus
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Imperial cult: How can you find it impure? |
| From: |
Piscinus@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 May 2000 08:59:28 EDT |
|
Salve A. Gryllus Graecus
I understand and follow the logic of your arguement. On a religious
point of view you might be correct, I should think you are. But there was
also a political dimension to the Imperial cult which was politically useful
in parts of the empire, but extremely distasteful to many Romans themselves.
If the Imperial cult was just a natural extention of accepted Roman practise,
extended from the private into the public domain, then why would it have been
so distasteful to Romans?
Salve
Gn. Hernicius Piscinus
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] NR Files at e-groups |
| From: |
jmath669642reng@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 May 2000 09:09:24 -0400 (EDT) |
|
Salve, and Thank you both Venator and Sulla for your kind directionson
the usage of the subject area.
Vale, Respectfully;
Marcus Audens
Fair Winds and Following Seas!!!
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Dea Dia (was ATTN (Religio Romana): ante diem VI Kalendas Iunii (May 27th)) |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" <amg@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 May 2000 14:35:33 +0100 |
|
Salve Piscine
> The Dea Dia is of special interest to me. The Hymn of the Arval
>Brethren, carved in stone, I have found in several sources. But along with
>this there is mention of the Arval Brethren's organizational records, also
>carved in stone. I have not found any description of what they contain,
and
>certainly have not found any transcropt of them. Would you have a
suggestion
>as to where I would find such information?
I have! I have ordered the following two books by John Scheid. They will be
arriving soon:
- John Scheid, avec la collaboration de Paola Tassini et Jorg Rupke,
Recherches archiologiques ` la Magliana. Commentarii fratrum arvalium
qui supersunt. Les copies ipigraphiques des protocoles annuels de la
confririe arvale (21 av. - 304 ap. J.-C.) (Roma Antica 4; Ecole francaise de
Rome;
Soprintendenza archeologica di Roma 1998). Pp. 428, figs. 195. ISBN
2-7283-0539-0.
-Scheid, John. Romulus et set freres: Les college des freres Arvales,
modele du culte public dans la Rome des empereurs. Bibliotheque des ecoles
francaises d'Athenes et de Rome, 275. Rome: Ecole francaise de Rome,
1990.
You can order these books from:
http://www.ecole-francaise.it/
> There is also the question of the relationship of Dea Dia to Bona Dia
and
>other local Iyalic goddess that has arisen in my correspondance with Vado.
>Would you have a comment in that area?
I've already read something about the identification of the two Goddesses.
Nevertheless, I'll have to find the text again... I'll see if I can find it.
Vale
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Imperial cult: How can you find it impure? |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" <amg@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 May 2000 14:45:52 +0100 |
|
Salve iterum Piscine
> I understand and follow the logic of your arguement. On a religious
>point of view you might be correct, I should think you are.
And that's all my words try to justify.
>But there was
>also a political dimension to the Imperial cult which was politically
useful
>in parts of the empire, but extremely distasteful to many Romans
themselves.
Well, I agree that the Imperial cult contributed to the eclipse of the
traditional Gods. Yet, I must also agree that with such an heterogeneous
Empire, the Imperial cult may have been a good tool to keep unity (e.g.
Goddess Roma was honoured together with the Genius of the Emperor). For
example in Lusitania (and I think it can be generalised to all Hispania) the
cult of Iuppiter Optimus Maximus was kept by the priests of the Imperial
cult.
>If the Imperial cult was just a natural extention of accepted Roman
practise,
>extended from the private into the public domain, then why would it have
been
>so distasteful to Romans?
Distasteful to Romans? Maybe to the Jews and the Christians... In the
majority of eastern provinces the deification of the LIVING Emperor had to
be TOLERATED by Augustus. In the western provinces almost every home had a
shrine or statues devoted to Roma and the Genius.
Vale
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Neapolitanism and Culinary Correctness (Was Re: Theologica... |
| From: |
Piscinus@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 May 2000 10:09:45 EDT |
|
Salve Vado
You have drawn question to my culinary interests and then you proceed to
mention the merits of Italian beers? Never mind the continuous debate
between Americans and the English over the merits of their respective beers
and how they prefer to drink them, a perennial source of jokes on both sides
of the Atlantic that I hope the English will someday win, (I gag every time I
see a Coors commercial, and the Lone Star Beer in Marius' area I can testify
to being only mildly better then the Tiger beer provided GI's in Nam). Maybe
it is only that the only Italian beers imported here are meant to feed the
pitiful taste Americans have in their beers, or maybe it is that they can't
sell this anywhere in Europe, but so far what I have been offered as Italian
beer is awful. I am not partial to beer anyway, unless I happen to be out in
the Texas sun, which is unlikely to ever happen again.
On the matter of Roman cavalry. What you have described is very
interesting. It reminded me of some of the small unit tactics we employed
long ago. Someone suggested that digging in one's heels would allow the
Roman cavalry to use lances. Surely not, at least not in the sense we would
think of in the Napoleonic era, the Crusades, or even the Late
Empire/Byzantine era. Calvary was not used as shock units because they were
incapable of such deployments in the Republican and early Imperial periods.
Regional differences between cavalry I would think would determine how they
would be deployed. As you mention, the Batavi, with which I am unfamiliar,
would be used as mobile infantry in river-crossing ops, as opposed to
Parthian mounted archers.
Salve Aletheia
I intend to address and develop this more specifically later. Thus far
when I have referred to "Greek influence" on religio romana it would be to a
later Greek influence as Rome expands into Greece itself. Some of our modern
religious concepts were indeed influenced by Neoplatonist interpretations,
but of much earlier established institutions. I would consider there to be
three periods of "Greek" influence. The first I'll mention, which I don't
consider Greek at all, would be the common culture of SE Europe prior to the
arrival of Indo-Europeans. The indigenous culture that Graves speaks of as
supplying the Greeks with many of their goddesses and that Gimbutas has
brought to light, was also fused with the Italic tribes as they arrived in
Italy. There would then have been the very early contacts between the Greeks
and Italics in what we'll call the Vitelia period, the Italics prior to the
founding of Rome. Included in this period would be the indirect influence of
Greeks that arrived at Rome from Etruscans. Even before Rome is founded, in
the 10th cent bce when there first appears a continuous habitation in the
Rome area, there is direct contact between the Greeks and Italics at the site
of Rome. Probably Rome only came into existence because of the convenience
of the site for trading with Greeks. Then there would be the later period
still as the Roman state expands in Italy and interacts with the Greeks of
southern Italy. The expansion of Rome down the Illyrian coast into Greece
might be considered along with this period. Beyond that, and such influences
the Greeks would have impacted on Rome, does not interest me as much for the
point of our discussions here. My interest is primarily with the development
of the Italic tribes and what they brought into the Roman mix. Agreeably
there was already a Greek influence present here.
Must run now. Valete
Piscine
PS Vado, forgo the Latin. It has been over thirty years since I last studied
it and I am struggling through my Jesuit book on philosophy as well. I have
much more to catch up on.
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Introduction to the Religio Romana |
| From: |
Piscinus@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 May 2000 11:10:52 EDT |
|
Salve Pont. A. Gryllus Graecus
Ite est. I am not so must a dogmatist as to say what is one thing and
what is not. To say what is Etruscan, Greek, or Italic with any definity is
impossible. But in discussing things in such terms helps to understand them
I think, with one proviso: one defines the terms they use. In making comments
I have been guilty of not defining my terms, mea culpa. My comment on this
website was a gut reaction, it offended my perceptions of my famiglia's
traditions. I have made some of my opinion clearer in e-mails to Vado, and
will continue to in what I hope will be an ongoing discussion.
The point you made about the Roman ritus as a unifying force is well
taken. There is a unique situation in NR that we are still developing. Your
approach sounds much like an older version of Catholicism and its Roman ritus
(nothing judgmental intended). Is that how you might see it?
I was on the website for Lusitania. The description of the local deities
interested me because the situation there seems to present the same kind of
problem in dealing with the Italic deities. Romanized names for local
cultus. There is better evidence in Italy for some Italic tribes but not
all. The attempt to identify the Lusitania deities through comparison with
Gaullish names, why was that? Is there a direct connection to Gaul? Was
there not an indigenous, non-Gaullic cultus in these regions? Are the
monuments that remain of the locals or of garrisonning troops?
Vale
Piscine
|
| Subject: |
[novaroma] ATTN (Religio Romana): ante diem IV Kalendas Iunii (May 29th) |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" <amg@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 May 2000 16:45:47 +0100 |
|
This is a dies comitiales (C), when committees of citizens can
vote on political or criminal matters.
The moveable feast called Ambarvalia took place around May 29. The
Ambarvalia is a rite of purification of the fields of Rome ('ager Romanus')
and consists of a procession around the fields. It involves the worship of
agricultural deities such as Ceres, Bacchus, Mars, Iuppiter and Ianus.
Agricultural work ceases for the day. Pigs, sheep and oxen (sacrificial
animals of the 'suovetaurilia') are lead in procession around the field
boundaries and sacrificed at certain places along these boundaries. The are
within rests thus free from evil. The Ambarvalia was celebrated both
publicly and privately. The private rites are described by Cato in De
Agricultura, 141:
http://www.novaroma.org/religio_romana/cato_purify.html
http://www.novaroma.org/calendar/maius2.html#ambarvalia
This is the second day of sacrifices to Dea Dia performed by the Arval
Brothers (see May 27th for the 1st day). The priests would gather near Her
temple on the Via Campana, in the sacred wood ('lucus') of Dea Dia. The
President of the Arval Brothers sacrifices three sows as an expiation for
the pruning of the trees with iron. After that, an 'honorary' cow is
sacrificed as an homage to Dea Dia. If the entrails show positive signs of
acceptance, they are offered to Dea Dia, being burnt either on the altar
(the sows) or on a silver brazier (the cow). After that, the President
orders these procedures to be written on the 'codex'. Then he strips the
"toga praetexta" and has a bath. He then received his fellow priests and
everyone sit on the tetrastyle and banquet with bread and the meat of the
sows. After that, veiled, crowned with ears of grain and a white ribbon, the
President and a Flamen go to the border of the sacred wood and sacrifice
cakes and an white ewe-lamb. Then, they enter the temple and each sacrifices
three times with three pellets of liver glued with milk and flour, over a
mount of grass on the table, in front of the statue of the Goddess. They do
the same twice on the ground. Returning to the outside, near the altar
(Note: the altars were outside of the temples, in front of the entrance, so
that sacrifices were performed in the open air) for a prayer. They then
return to the temple and after a prayer, they touch the pots of food (making
the pots profane). After that, the President, the Flamen, the public slaves
and three Arval Brothers receive the pots, and once the doors of the temple
are open, they throw the content of the pots to the ground on the outside as
an offering to the Mater Larum (Mother of the Lares). The doors are then
closed again and loafs of bread wrapped with lawrel are offered to their
slaves and followers. Then they leave the temple and gather near the altar.
The President and the Flamen send two Brothers to "look for the cereals".
Once these arrive, the President and the Flamen give a cup of wine with the
right hand and receive the cereals with the left hand. After saying a
prayer, they sacrifice with incense and sweet wine mixed with milk, and
after that they sacrifice with cakes. Then the President and the Flamen
return to the temple, they chant the Arval hymn or Carmen Arvale while
dancing in ternary rithm:
enos Lases iuvate
enos Lases iuvate
enos Lases iuvate
neve lue rue Marmar sins incurrere in pleoris
neve lue rue Marmar sins incurrere in pleoris
neve lue rue Marmar sins incurrere in pleoris
satur fu, fere Mars, limen sali, sta berber
satur fu, fere Mars, limen sali, sta berber
satur fu, fere Mars, limen sali, sta berber
semunis alterni advocapit conctos
semunis alterni advocapit conctos
semunis alterni advocapit conctos
enos Marmor iuvato
enos Marmor iuvato
enos Marmor iuvato
triumpe triumpe triumpe triumpe triumpe
Then Dea Dia and Mater Larum are perfumed before being offered crowns and
lighted candles. A banquet is then held at the tetrastyle, where the sweet
wine is carried in procession.
The feasts end with chariot races and other Circus games.
I remind you that Maius is the month of the old and the dead. Maia, the
Lares and the Manes and their mother Mania (Mater Larum) are specially
honoured.
Pax Deorum vobiscum
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] War elephants(was Theological Correctness) |
| From: |
sfp55@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 May 2000 12:44:25 EDT |
|
In a message dated 5/29/2000 4:09:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
gens_moravia@-------- writes:
<< oxymorons are like Carthaginian war-elephants, only
bigger). >>
Actually Carthaginian war-elephants were smaller then the average war
elephants used by Alexander's successors.
Q. Fabius
Military Historian.
|
| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Introduction to the Religio Romana |
| From: |
"Antonio Grilo" <amg@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 May 2000 19:17:03 +0100 |
|
Salve Piscine
Firstly I'd like to present an idea about the Greek influence in Rome.
One thing makes us think that the Romans were not simply Hellenised. The
Ritus Graecus that appeared during the IIIrd or IInd century BCE was more
Roman than Greek. I would say that the Ricus Graecus consisted of ROMAN rite
procedures "artificially" changed to look like greek rites (e.g. head
uncovered, greek words mixed with Latin, etc.). But the core was ROMAN.
Of course the Greeks influenced the Romans. When? Although since quite
early, the strongest hellenisation movement came precisely during this
period (IIIrd and IInd centuries BCE. Is it a coincidence?) when Rome was
taking the place of Greece as the greatest power in the Mediterranean. John
Scheid presentes the interesting view that this was an attempt to legitimate
the Roman civilisation which was until then CONSIDERED AS BARBARIAN BY THE
GREEK WORLD. So, by saying that the Romans are descendent from the Greeks,
the Romans would legitimate their place as a CIVILISED POWER. Like this,
international policy would have lead the "Hellenising" movement.
Well, but this is one possible explanation, it's only a MYTH =) (see below).
> The point you made about the Roman ritus as a unifying force is well
>taken. There is a unique situation in NR that we are still developing.
Your
>approach sounds much like an older version of Catholicism and its Roman
ritus
>(nothing judgmental intended). Is that how you might see it?
Well, I think I'm getting your point. Then maybe it is better to clarify the
difference between my view and Christian Catholicism before proceding.
In fact I abruptly depart from Catholic view when I say that the Religio
Romana has NO CREED. Classical writers DID NOT CONSIDER traditional Myths as
a CREED. When talking about a deity, they usually presented SEVERAL MYTHS
they had heard either from writers or from popular tales. And they did not
state that those Myths were the only ones or that they were the absolute
truth. They presented the Myths and compared them, leaving the reader the
option of (eventually) choosing the version or versions that suits more his
personal taste or reasoning. So, for me, the Myth is symbolic. It is an
attempt to EXPLAIN RATIONALLY (forgive me if this is not the most suitable
term) the nature of a certain deity in a way that others can understand.
Now to understand my point, imagine that Vergil is appointed Flamen Dialis.
Imagine that both identify Iuppiter with the Greek Zeus. That does not
matter because when sacrificing to Iuppiter, I'm sure that he would say the
same words and perform the same gestures as if he believed Iuppiter and Zeus
to be different. Although the "mythical" and "philosophical" explanations
for the Nature of the Gods varied according to the fashion of each period,
the rite in traditional Roman cults was always the same, which is natural
for a ritualistic religion like the Religio Romana.
In other words. The RITES are what man really offers to the Gods and as such
are regulated by the TRADITION of the Religio Romana. MYTH is a purely human
(profane) thing and as such is out of the span of the Religio itself, being
simply a PROFANE attempt to explain either the procedures followed during
the religious rites or the actions of the Gods upon Nature.
So for me, while Catholic view is bound to dogma and rite, the Religio
Romana (and other ancient pagan religions, e.g. Greek) frees man from dogma
and only binds him to rite.
> I was on the website for Lusitania. The description of the local
deities
>interested me because the situation there seems to present the same kind of
>problem in dealing with the Italic deities. Romanized names for local
>cultus. There is better evidence in Italy for some Italic tribes but not
>all. The attempt to identify the Lusitania deities through comparison with
>Gaullish names, why was that? Is there a direct connection to Gaul? Was
>there not an indigenous, non-Gaullic cultus in these regions?
Well, I believe that is because Hispania was invaded by the Celts and as
such many scholars try to explain Celtiberian deities based upon Gaul
deities. But I warn you that I must update the study in my page. New books
about the subject seem to present a more developed analysis.
> Are the
>monuments that remain of the locals or of garrisonning troops?
Both natives and Romans. Sometimes, the Roman governor himself offers
sacrifice to a local deity during a visit to a city.
Vale
Antonius Gryllus Graecus
Pontifex
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Neapolitanism and Culinary Correctness (Was Re: Theologica... |
| From: |
"StormWolf" <blakmice@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 May 2000 13:15:52 -0000 |
|
> You have drawn question to my culinary interests and then you proceed
to
>mention the merits of Italian beers? Never mind the continuous debate
>between Americans and the English over the merits of their respective beers
>and how they prefer to drink them, a perennial source of jokes on both
sides
>of the Atlantic that I hope the English will someday win, (I gag every time
I
>see a Coors commercial, and the Lone Star Beer in Marius' area I can
testify
>to being only mildly better then the Tiger beer provided GI's in Nam).
Maybe
>it is only that the only Italian beers imported here are meant to feed the
>pitiful taste Americans have in their beers, or maybe it is that they can't
>sell this anywhere in Europe, but so far what I have been offered as
Italian
>beer is awful. I am not partial to beer anyway, unless I happen to be out
in
>the Texas sun, which is unlikely to ever happen again.
*snickers* Neither will win. I hate beer anyway (gimme wine or whiskey any
ol day!) But a good friend says ONLY German beer is worth the $$ hehe...
anywho *wanders back into the shadows until he can finish relearning latin
and get his ahands on some new history boks*
L. Vatinius
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Re: Draco's Pizza & Peasoup Emporium |
| From: |
"StormWolf" <blakmice@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 May 2000 13:20:13 -0000 |
|
Yes! Another Texan! *dances about* Aren't I easily pleased?
L. Vatinius
>L. Vatinius,
>
>Salve from New Braunfels
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] Theological Correctness (Was Re: De Opulentia) |
| From: |
"StormWolf" <blakmice@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 May 2000 13:22:48 -0000 |
|
>> tribes as they first enter Italy. Robt. Graves ideas concern too
specific
I've heard of him and some of his work... can you elaborate on whether or
not any of his stuff would be useful in my research?
Vale,
L. Vatinius
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] War elephants(was Theological Correctness) |
| From: |
StarWreck@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 May 2000 14:32:54 EDT |
|
In a message dated 5/29/00 12:47:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sfp55@--------
writes:
<< Actually Carthaginian war-elephants were smaller then the average war
elephants used by Alexander's successors. >>
Asian Elephants were larger than African Elephants?
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| Subject: |
Re: [novaroma] War elephants(was Theological Correctness) |
| From: |
sfp55@-------- |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 May 2000 16:27:14 EDT |
|
In a message dated 5/29/2000 11:34:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
StarWreck@-------- writes:
<< Asian Elephants were larger than African Elephants?
>>
The so-called Indian elephant was.
QFM
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Theological correctness |
| From: |
"Cornelius Scriptor" <cornelius_scriptor@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 May 2000 23:45:40 -0000 |
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Salvete,
You'll have a hard time finding myths on the virginity of
Minerva that are typically Romans. A virgin Minerva is only an
adaptation of the Greek myth, like most of the myths concerning gods
living like humans. A few Etruscan myths with human-like gods were
known in early Rome, but they were known as Etruscan myths, not Roman.
The early religious beliefs of the people that will later
become the Roman concerned the physical manifestations of spirits, a
numen. Numina weren't gods, only the physical presence of a
being.
For example, there were near Rome a circle of spears that were
sometime suppose to move by themselves. They were said to be the
numen of Mars. Over time, the concept of deus surfaced. A deus is a
god, not only the presence of a being, but the being itself. Still
they weren't considered human-like, so didn't had myths
concerning
them (but there was stories about their presence, but not physical,
or influence in our world). So a virgin numen, or a virgin deus was
inconceivable, at least until the Greek influence.
If you want to get an idea of the Punic influence in Rome's
mythology, especially on Hercules, check Studia Phoenica IX. It's
C.
Bennet study on Melquart and his assimilation with local heroes all
around the Mediterranean (1995, I think. Should be available in
English). Basically you'll see that Hercules come from the
Etruscan
Hercles and from the Punic Melquart, Hercles come from the mix of a
local hero, Melquart and Heracles, and Heracles come from a local
hero and Melquart. The monster-slaying myths of Heracles, like most
monster-slaying myths in Greece, come from Eastern influence.
Valete,
Cornelius Scriptor
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| Subject: |
[novaroma] Re: Damascus Steel |
| From: |
"Cornelius Scriptor" <cornelius_scriptor@--------> |
| Date: |
Mon, 29 May 2000 23:47:40 -0000 |
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Salvete,
I don't know anything about Roman metallurgy, but the subject
of technology reminded me of an archaeological discovery in Tunisia a
few years ago.
In a small, mostly uninteresting site, was found an
artificial deviation of the local river ( a small river) that date
back in the Roman era. In this deviation, there was an unusual
structure that forced the water in funnel-shaped pipes. Inside theses
pipes there where indications on the presence of a mobile element.
It look exactly like a modern hydroelectric dam. It was very obvious
at first sight, and an indication confirmed what it was.
I'm not saying the Romans had discovered electricity. The
whole structure was connected with a building that is believed to be
a mills of some sort, but frankly, it's much too damaged (by
time,
not destruction) to tell. I didn't find the archaeological report
in
the archives, but next time I'm in Tunisia I'll find out
where the
archaeologist came from and ask them.
Cornelius Scriptor
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