Subject: Re: Afranius Siagrius
From: "Antonio M. R. C. Grilo" amg@--------
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 10:37:11 +0100


>From: C--------us622@--------
>
>Salve,
>
>I've never heard of Afranius Siagrius! Can't imagine how this fascinating
bit
>of history escaped me. I too would love to hear more on the subject. At the
>very least, Antonius, could you possibly do a write up on this for "The
>Eagle"?

I'd love to write to the Eagle, but unfourtunately, information is very
lacking. I'll make my best!!!!

Vale!

I personally have always been interested in the last attempts to hold
>on to Classical civilization in the face of "the dark ages"...
>
>Vale,
>
>Marcus Cassius Julianus
>
>In a message dated 98-09-03 15:48:50 EDT, Antonius Gryllus Graecus writes:
>
><<
> Although it falls a little outside the pagan period of Rome, I have always
> been interested of the last moments of the fall of the Western Roman
Empire.
> Although the official date for its fall is 476 AD, there is another
> important date that have been forgotten by most historians. Maybe because
> unlike me (and I'm sure many of you), when they read or write the history
> book, they don't feel that burning hope that at the end of the chapter,
the
> Roman Empire will always last one more minute.
> The date I am talking about is 486 AD. After the child Emperor Romulus
> Augustulus was deposed by Odoacre, one governor in Gaul whose name was
> Afranius Siagrius, still resisted the barbarian wave. He governed his
> territory until 486, when he was finally defeated and killed by the Francs
> of Clovis, and I think it was near Soissons.
> Anyone can tell anything more about this last Western Roman governor?
>
> Vale!
>
> Antonius Gryllus Graecus
> (Praetor ad Lusitaniam Provinciam)
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>service. ONElist has a variety of advertising packages. Visit
><a href="http://www.onelist.com/advert.html" target="_top" >http://www.onelist.com/advert.html</a> for more information.
>




Subject: Re: Proposal for Vestals (long)
From: "Antonio M. R. C. Grilo" amg@--------
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 12:48:07 +0100
Salvete omnes!

I agree with the proposal as is. Nevertheless, we must pay attention to our
reality.
Take the case of the Catholic Church. It has been evolving since the last
years of the Roman Empire. Since then, its code has not been molded only by
the catholic pontifices, but also by the mentality of the faithful, which
has been also changing across the centuries. Today, even the mass is said in
the language of each nation.
Our big problem is that the Religio Romana has not been continuous across
times. So, we are NOW trying to restore it. Nevertheless, we must think of
how things would have been if the Religio Romana had survived as an
institution since the ancient Roman times. Would it have stayed equal? I'm
sure it wouldn't, as values and the definition of moral gain more and more
respect for individual freedom.
One of the reasons I've chosen the Religio Romana is that it means to me a
set of values that are more Human than some other religions, in a sense that
it has in mind the happyness of men above all, and approaches humans from
Gods - for the Gods have themselves human feelings and actions, although not
the same nature.
Dear fellow citizens,
What I want to say is that we are in a very good position to praise human
respect and happyness. But first, lets recognise the nature of what is
human, and look at it, not with scorn - for we would have to scorn our Gods
too - but with admiration. As such, I don't think sexual activity is a sin,
for the very Gods committed it. It's true that virginity was a symbol of
purity... But we should think if it was a symbol of purity from the Gods or
from the Humans ourselves.
Dear fellow citizens,
Be complacent, for even a fallen Vesta is Human above all.

Vale!

-----Original Message-----
From: m--------oon@-------- m--------oon@--------
To: <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a> <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
Date: Sunday, September 06, 1998 5:41 AM
Subject: [novaroma] Proposal for Vestals (long)


>From: m--------oon@--------
>
>The following proposal was sent to the College of Pontifices. It was the
>opinion of one of the Consuls that it be posted to the list, although
>the College of Pontifices has the last word to approve or disapprove.
>
>I understand that there was a nasty argument on the List over the
>Vestals at some time in the past. I joined after that, so I'm not privy
>to what went on. I was told, however, that the opinion was that the
>Vestals were an attempt by men to control women's spirituality. I doubt
>that was true in Rome, but even if it was, Nova Roma's pontifical and
>political structure is composed of women as well as men, and any office
>is open to women. Nor is anyone being co-opted into the Vestals: it is a
>VOLUNTEER organization. Virginity isn't a requirement, but a VOLUNTARY
>vow of celibacy for a one year period is required, according to the
>proposal. We are not playing "Vestal for the weekend" here: this is a
>valid religious decision that a woman makes for herself.
>
>Every attempt was made to adhere to historical accuracy, but this is an
>organization particularly difficult to adapt for modern life.
>Concessions must be made. However, a new Rome without an Order of
>Vestals is missing a major part of Roman religion.
>
>*******************************
>The proposal is as follows:
>
>To the College of Pontifices of Nova Roma I send greetings and this
>proposal for the establishment of the Order of Vestals for Nova Roma.
>-- Flavia Claudia Juliana
>
>
>
> The Order of the Vestal Virgins was established at Mt. Alba by King
>Numa. However, the practices of the priestesses of Vesta may have been
>much older, but Numa (in good old Roman fashion and probably with advice
>from his divine advisor, Egeria) formally established the organization
>of the Order.
>
> The duties of the Vestals were:
>To tend the sacred fire of the Hearth of Rome, this Hearth being the
>Temple of Vesta, and to carry the fire to the various Temples for the
>sacrifices and lights.
>
>To bring water to the Temple from the Well of Juturna for the services
>of Vesta and the cleansing of the ritual objects.
>
>To prepare the mola salsa (salt wafer) and the salt for ritual
>sacrifices, although a Vestal could have no part in living sacrifices
>
>To attend certain state rituals which required their presence, besides
>their own rites. The private rites of Vesta were Mysteries kept entirely
>within the Order. They also participated in the rites of the Bona Dea.
>
>To have charge, with the Salii Priests of Mars, of all the sacred
>objects of Rome
>
>To offer public prayers for the safety of Rome and its citizens.
>
>To keep the worship of the god Fascinus, who protects infants and
>generals (all of the above from Pliny)
>
>To remind the Rex Sacrorum of his sacred duty with the words "Are thou
>on the watch, O king? Keep watch." (Servius)
>
>To attend the following festivals: Parentatio; Lupercalia; Fornicalia;
>Fordicia; Parilia; Bona Dea in May; Vesta;Consus; Ops Consiva; Jupiter;
>sacrifice of the October Horse; Bona Dea in December
>
>To perform religious duties including: Rekindling of the sacred fire in
>March; Sacrifice to Vesta upon the election of the Pontifex Maximus;
>gathering the first ears of corn for the mola salsa; throwing the Straw
>Men into the Tiber.
>
>To teach the rituals and Mysteries to new Vestals. For Nova Roma, this
>may also include re-creating the rituals and ceremonies as closely as
>possible to the originals.
>
> The Order of Vestals for Nova Roma will carry out these ancient duties
>as closely as possible, taking modern times into consideration. The
>Order is a volunteer religious organization, and requires a commitment
>to the Goddess Vesta.
>
>The question of virginity
> Oddly enough, the description of a virgin in Ovid, writing of Vesta, is
>"Nor do you esteem Vesta to be anything but a living flame, and you see
>no bodies produced from flame. Therefore she is truly a virgin, for she
>sends forth no seed nor receives it..."
> It is Plutarch's opinion that Numa thought that the nature of fire is
>barren and brings forth nothing, so its care is fitting and proper to
>virgins. Therefore, the idea of barrenness is as germaine to the Vestals
>as virginity, virginity of necessity being a barren state. If we
>consider virginity in that light, then the requirement of virginity in
>the Nova Roman Vestals is somewhat served by a woman who has 1) not
>produced children; 2) is not married or engaged during the term of her
>service as a Vestal; 3) is not living in a conjugal relationship with a
>man during her service as a Vestal; and 4) is willing to keep a vow of
>chastity for the duration of her service as a Vestal. For Nova Roma,
>this accommodation is probably as close as we can come. Actual virgins
>are also welcome!
> The Vestals were also considered to be "married" to the gods, therefore
>the gods' human representative, the Pontifex Maximus, stands for the
>gods as proxy in the ceremony between the Vestals and the deities, and
>acts for the gods in accepting the Vestal in holy marriage. The Pontifex
>Maximus is in the position of father, husband, and priest to the Order
>of Vestals as a whole.
> In Rome, girls from good families were adopted into the Order of
>Vestals at about age 6 or 7, when they left their families and went to
>live with the Order in the Domus Vestales. They served a term of 30
>years: 10 spent learning, 10 spent in duties, and 10 spent in teaching.
>At the end of that time, a Vestal retired with a pension from the State
>and could marry, although marriage was rare.
> For Nova Roma, including children in the order of Vestals could present
>social problems that we just don't need. It has been suggested that the
>Vestals are a way to include children in the Religio Romana, but Rome
>had another provision for children, the Camilli and Camillae, children
>who assisted at the religious rites of a particular god or goddess (sort
>of the forerunners of altar boys). It might be a nice idea to revive
>that order for Nova Roman children, but that would not be a function of
>the Vestals.
>
>The election and term of a Nova Roma Vestal
> There shall be no more than six Vestals at any time. The Chief Vestal
>(Virgo Maxima) is the oldest Vestal; when she retires, is removed from
>office or if she dies, the next oldest takes her place.
> Vestals are chosen from women who are at or above the legal age of
>consent in their respective states, who volunteer for the Order, who
>are Citizens of Nova Roma, and meet the requirements. Candidates are
>chosen by the Virgo Maxima and the Pontifex Maximus and inducted in a
>private ceremony conducted by the Pontifex Maximus.
> A Vestal shall serve for a term of one year, during which time she must
>take and keep a vow of chastity. At the end of that time, she may renew
>her vows and continue with the Order, or she may leave, having served
>Vesta and Nova Roma with honor.
> A Vestal may leave the Order at any time before her year's term, but
>will not be readmitted.
> It is recommended that a Vestal wear the garments traditional to
>Vestals at all Nova Roma events where appropriate.
> A Vestal is entitled to be preceded by a lictor. Good luck trying to
>get one, girls!
>
>Removal of a Vestal
> A Vestal may be removed for purposely breaking her vow or neglecting
>her sacred duties. Her case will be reviewed by the Virgo Maxima and the
>Pontifex Maximus; if they find reason to remove the Vestal, such reasons
>shall be presented to the Senate. The Vestal has the right to have her
>case heard in the Senate, which has the final judgement. This follows
>Roman law.
> Nova Roma will not bury disgraced Vestals alive. For one thing, we
>don't want to go all the way to the Colline Gate to do it.
>
>Secular duties of a Vestal
> The Vestals shall have custody of all wills, treaties and important
>documents. This follows Roman custom. For Nova Roma, the Vestals will be
>happy to accept sealed copies of wills and documents, copies of Nova
>Roma's treaties with other Micronations, and other State documents, to
>be kept in a bank safe deposit box. Documents should be sealed with wax
>(obligatory) and imprinted with the Citizen's personal seal (optional).
>Please remember that any legal document should also be filed as usual
>with your lawyer. Filing wills with the Vestals is symbolic only. The
>Virgo Maxima and Pontifex Maximus will have keys to the box, which will
>be opened in Nova Roma's name. At the end of either's term of office,
>the VM or PM will turn over the keys to her/his successor.
>
>
>The Hearth of Nova Roma
> Since we have no central forum, the Temple of Vesta shall be a private
>place in each Vestal's home, perhaps as part of her own lararium. She is
>responsible for dedicating this flame to Vesta, on behalf of the Nova
>Roman state, and keeping it burning. In this, we also make concession to
>modern times and personal lives. Vestals may find it dangerous to keep a
>flame burning unattended. Therefore, the Vestals may extinguish the
>flame with proper respect, and re-light it, preferably every day, but at
>least once a week, with proper ceremony and prayers for the citizens and
>state.
>
>Ceremonies, Mysteries, and Rites of the Vestals
> These will be created by the Vestals after diligent study of the
>ancient rites, and with the divine direction of Vesta.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Subject: Re: Resignation
From: dean6886@--------)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 09:44:51 -0500 (CDT)
Also hoping that Germanicus will reconsider one day reaaplying as a
citizen. He has done a wonderful job in setting much of the foundation
of Nova Roma and has cheerfully donated hundreds if not a couple of
thousand hours of his life in doing so in such a short time. He brought
us right to the point where we can be an organization that is here to
stay. Noone should object if he ever decides to reapply and participate
in Nova Roma to any extent he wishes to. We could only hope to elect
another consul and censor who would be as dedicated.


Gaius Drusus Domitianus






Subject: Re: Welcome to <a href="mailto:novaroma@--------" >novaroma@--------</a>
From: "jack porter" poeticfiend@--------
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 11:54:59 PDT

Tibi magni gratias ago!
Hope to meet you at Forum Romanum!
Gauis Triumphius Cicero




Subject: Re: Resignation
From: Dexippus@--------
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 18:45:30 EDT
Well...this comes as a complete shock to me!

I too wish Germanicus well. However, I am at a loss for the reasons for his
resignation. Is there something wrong with the list? I never received an e-
mail regarding his self dismissal. Can someone please explain?

--Dexippus



Subject: Re: Resignation
From: pythia kingan@--------
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 19:31:54 -0700


Dexippus@-------- wrote:

> From: Dexippus@--------
>
> Well...this comes as a complete shock to me!
>
> I too wish Germanicus well. However, I am at a loss for the reasons for his
> resignation. Is there something wrong with the list? I never received an e-
> mail regarding his self dismissal. Can someone please explain?
>
> --Dexippus

Actually Dex, he never did give any explanation. There were personal reasons he
would not reveal. No one seems to understand why someone who was so passionate
about Roman things would "purge" himself of all of it so suddenly. He wants
privacy about this so thats all there is to it. We seem to be holding up very
well under Cassius' able leadership, so hang in there.

Pythia

>
>
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Subject: Pagan Tracts
From: Dexippus@--------
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 22:26:24 EDT
Salve Omni,

For all of you who may be interested in ordering Pagan Tracts (i.e. per the
Oberon Zell story), you can contact:

Pathfinder Press Publications
Box 57
Index, WA 98256
360-793-1945

--Dexippus



Subject: Re: Resignation
From: Dexippus@--------
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 22:32:14 EDT
With Germanicus' resignation, is the mailing address in Morristown still
valid?

I have just printed out 200 copies of the flyer for distribution at an Italian
Festival in Garfield, NJ this weekend and am wondering if I need to offer them
to Compostia (the goddess of recycling) and print out new ones.

Please advise if anyone has any idea.

--Dexippus